ARJ

Srikanthji would you please explain who's the judge ? This question has always bothered me. It is hard to believe that someone's maintaining ledgers.

he's definitely Krishna 2nd coming, I mean if he joins ISKCON

Mr. Jayapataka must be really an important 'Hare Krishna' ,is he considered as Krishna 2nd coming ???????? & moderators please consider this a honest query, thank you.

What scriptures did Hindus follow before B.G. was written ????

Mimamsa states "any genuine Hindu religious text needs to be compatible with the Srutis (Veda)." where's Krishna mentioned in Vedas ???????

I don't think you are fully aware of some incidents. Gandhi had different perspective on Jalianwala baugh masacre & Moplah riots. Gandhi called Shivaji & Rana Pratap 'Misguided Patriots'. As per his ideology even Krishna is 'Misguided' than. Either Gandhi was wrong or Bhagavat Gita is. I can't help it if you can't read between the lines. The above article was meant for the 'Hare Krishnas' & 'Hare Christians' & 'Hare Muslims' (if there are any). After reading this article the 'Hare Christians' must've realised the mistake they made by now. Also here's the link to the source of the above article, they are also allowing comments, go & prove them wrong, if you can. http://www.sakshitimes.com/index.php?Itemid=42&id=230&option=com_content&task=view Hinduism is not based on Bhagavat Gita.

So now the Vaishnavites would judge who's a hindu & who's not. My religious orientation has nothing to do with this article, still as a Hindu I'm free to question Hindu scriptures, beliefs etc.

Amleshji, I always wondered how could Gandhi acquiesce in the killing of Ravana by Ram & Krishna provoking Arjuna to kill his own brothers. As per Gandhi's thinking both Ram & Krishna should be 'Himsak'.

My humble request to all the biased iskconite moderators of this forum, please don't delete this thread, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeezeee Have you ever read the charges that the Bible borrowed from the Bhagavad-Gita? Jerry Thomas does a historical and theological investigation and concludes that it is not the Bible that derived from Bhagavad-Gita but the probability is for the other way. Also, the article highlights the superiority of the Biblical concepts over the Bhagavad-Gita. External Critique Eliot Deutsch in his book The Bhagavadgita says: "The Gita was definitely composed later than the (early) Upanishads. The period of the Gita's composition would fall somewhere between the fifth century B.C. and the second century B.C. The final recension of the work was made sometime in the Gupta period (fourth to seventh centuries A.D.), and the earliest manuscript source dates back to Shankara's commentary in the ninth century. Swami Vivekanada: The book, Gita, had not been much known to the generality of people before Shankarâchârya made it famous by writing his great commentary on it. Long before that, there was current, according to many, the commentary on it by Bodhâyana. If this could be proved, it would go a long way, no doubt, to establish the antiquity of the Gita and the authorship of Vyasa. But the Bodhayana Bhâshya on the Vedânta Sutras — from which Râmânuja compiled his Shri-Bhâshya, which Shankaracharya mentions and even quotes in part here and there in his own commentary, and which was so greatly discussed by the Swami Dayânanda — not a copy even of that Bodhayana Bhashya could I find while travelling throughout India. It is said that even Ramanuja compiled his Bhashya from a worm-eaten manuscript which he happened to find. When even this great Bodhayana Bhashya on the Vedanta-Sutras is so much enshrouded in the darkness of uncertainty, it is simply useless to try to establish the existence of the Bodhayana Bhashya on the Gita. Some infer that Shankaracharya was the author of the Gita, and that it was he who foisted it into the body of the Mahabharata. ( Thoughts on Gita, Complete Works of Swami Vivekanada, Discourses and Lectures). Reasons for their Critique Improbability of it being a part of the Mahabharata: Swami Vivekananda observed, “How could there be so much discussion about Jnâna, Bhakti, and Yoga on the battle-field, where the huge army stood in battle array ready to fight, just waiting for the last signal? And was any shorthand writer present there to note down every word spoken between Krishna and Arjuna, in the din and turmoil of the battle-field.”Unfamiliarity before Shankaracharya: Alberuni, an Arab scholar who lived in India (1017 to 1031 A.D), wrote a book Alberuni's Indica, cataloguing the religious books of India and faith system. Though Alberuni mentions Gita fourteen times, he does not mention even a single time it as Bhagavad-Gita or discusses the idea of Vedanta or the Advaita-Vedanta as mentioned in the present day Bhagavad-Gita. Lack of Manuscript Evidence: TThere has not been a single manuscript of Bhagavad-Gita before Shankaracharya.Internal Evidence for Late Authorship: “the Bhagavad-Gita itself provides some internal evidence of its late composition. For example, verse XV, 15 mentions Vedantakrita (author of the Vedanta). This verse is a clue that the composition of the vulgate text took place when the doctrine of Vedanta came into prominence. Since the promulgation of Vedanta is closely linked to Shankara, it is evident that the Bhagavad-Gita has its origin in the same period. Likewise, verse X, 23 compares the Vedic god Rudra with Shankara. The more apt comparison would have been to Shiva, as is apparent when we examine their common characteristics. Rudra has been characterized as fierce, destructive, unsurpassed in might, and malevolent. But he is also bountiful, a bestower of blessings, whose favor is easily invoked. These characteristics are also those of Shiva, a post-Vedic god who became a successor of Rudra. 54 The comparison of Rudra with Shankara instead of Shiva provides an additional clue to the dating of the Bhagavad-Gita. To give one more instance, in verse IV, 2 Krishna is telling Arjuna that the Yoga of the Kshatriya tradition, handed down in regular succession by Rajarshl--who were both Raja (king) and Rishi (sage)--had been destroyed (yogo nashtah). The question is: when and by whom was this Yoga destroyed? When we critically examine this question in the context of the religious and philosophic history of India, it becomes apparent that this occurred around 800 A.D. and shortly thereafter” (The Gita As It Was: Rediscovering the Original Bhagavadgita. by Phulgenda Sinha). The Bhagavad-Gita From the Island of Bali: "The Bhagavadgita From the Island of Bali", written by N. G. Sardesai and published in the Modern Review of July 1914. Sardesai had been in Indonesia for some time and, after searching through local archives of Indian literature, he found a copy of the Gita, written on palm leaves in the Kavi (Balinese) language. This Bhagavad-Gita has only 84 verses which speak about Samkaya Philosophy of Kapila. This might have been the original Gita. Another copy found in Farrukhabad also has only 84 verses and speak about Samkaya Philosophy. This has been further confirmed by reading the Chapter 2. New Concepts in Bhagavad-Gita: John Davies observes, “ It may be certainly affirmed that if any one, after reading the Puranas or other popular religious books of the Hindus, should then turn for the first time to the study of the Bhagavadgita, he must be conscious of having come to a new country where nearly everything is changed. The thoughts, the sentiments, and the methods of expression have another stamp.” (John Davies, The Bhagavadgita) Some observations Bhagavad-Gita as we know now was not present before Shankarachyara. The original Gita spoke about Samkaya philosophy.Modern Bhagavad-Gita speaks about new concepts. Has the Modern Bhagavad-Gita borrowed from Bible? Concepts like sin, salvation, grace were alien to the Hindu philosophy before Shankarachyara. According to Richard Garbe, "European scholars have thought that no other Indian work bears such abundant evidence of Christian influence as the Bhagavad Gita." Pointing out the Christian views expressed in the Bhagavadgita, Garbe mentions two identical presentations: "(i) faith in God's love to man and in His mercy and forgiveness of sins arising therefrom; and (ii) the requirement laid upon man of devout love of God. From these agreements have arisen all sorts of reminiscences of New Testament modes of expression, which naturally suggested the thought of a loan." Garbe quotes the view of Lorinser who, in his introduction to his metrical translation of the Bhagavadgita into German, has observed: "the author of the Bhagavad Gita not only was acquainted with the writings of the New Testament and made frequent use of them, but wove Christian ideas and views into his system." Lorinser goes on to say: "this much admired monument of the spirit of ancient India, this most beautiful and exalted didactic poem, which can well be regarded as one of the noblest flowers of pagan wisdom, owes precisely its purest and highest praised teachings for the most part to Christian sources." Garbe quotes the following similarities of the Bhagavadgita to the New Testament which were pointed out by Paul Deusses in his translation of the Bhagavadgita: In the Bhagavadgita, Ch. IV, 4 and 5 : On the question of birth, Krishna tells Arjuna: "Many have been my past births. I know them all, whilst thou knowest not." This view is expressed in the New Testament, John VIII: 57, 58: " Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." In the Bhagavadgita, Ch. IX, 29 : "I am the same to all beings; no one is hateful to Me and no one dear. But those who worship Me with devotion, are in Me, and I too am in them". John XIV: 20: "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in Me, and I in you." In the Bhagavadgita, Ch. IX, 32 : "For, taking refuge in Me, they also, O Son of Pritha, who are of inferior birth--women, Vaishyas, as well as Shudras--even they attain to the Supreme Goal." In Galations III: 28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." This is not surprising considering that Shankarachyara was from Kerala where he had considerable exposure to Christians and the Bible. However, there are irreconcilable differences too. Comparison of a few Concepts in the Modern Bhagavad-Gita and the Epistle of Romans (A) Romans 1: Origin of the Universe and the Nature of the Creator: Ex-Nihilo: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1: 20). “God who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did” (Romans 4: 17). Ex-Deo: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from me" (Gita 10: 8). He is said to be not only the creator but also the substance of the universe (Gita 9: 16-19, 8: 4, 10:20-42). "I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong." (Gita 10:37). “At the end of an era (kalpa) all creatures disintegrate into my nature and at the beginning of another era I manifest them again. Such it is my nature (prakriti) to follow again and again the pattern of the Infinite manifestations and disintegrations” (Gita 9:7-8). Implications of the Epistle of Romans: God is sovereign in the epistle of Romans. He created out of nothing. It was not mandatory for Him to create. He created out of His freewill. He is distinct from the creations and has definite attributes. Therefore, He can be worshipped and He alone needs to be worshipped. Idols are absolutely wrong as God has definite attributes. Those attributes can never be reflected on idols. Implications of the Gita: It is contradictory to say that God is sovereign and say that creation is an outcome of God’s nature. Moreover, if God is everything, including the gambling of the cheats, whom will you worship? Again, if God does not have a definite nature, idol worship is justified. (B) Romans 2: Law, Karma (Dharma), and the Nature of Morality Universal Law: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.” (Romans 2: 15). Caste-based Karma and Dharma: The Bhagavad-Gita encourages Arjuna to fight because it is his caste duty. “Having regard to your own duty also, you ought not to falter, for there is nothing better for a Kshatriya than a righteous battle. Happy those Kshatriyas, O son of Prithâ! who can find such a battle (to fight)--come of itself an open door to heaven! But if you will not fight this righteous battle, then you will have abandoned your own duty and your fame, and you will incur sin.” (Gita 2:31, 32). © Romans 3: Sin, Disobedience, Nature of Man Universal fall through disobedience: “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3: 10). Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” (Romans 5:12). “Because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” (Romans 1: 21). Caste-based fall: The fourfold division of castes was created by me according to the apportionment of qualities and duties. But though I am its author, know me to be inexhaustible, and not the author (Gita 4:13). (D) Romans: Death- Cause and Effect Reality of Death through Sin: Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin (Romans 5:12).Illusion of Death: You have grieved for those who deserve no grief, and you talk words of wisdom 1. Learned men grieve not for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be. As, in this body, infancy and youth and old age (come) to the embodied (self), so does the acquisition of another body; a sensible man is not deceived about that The contacts of the senses, O son of Kuntî! which produce cold and heat, pleasure and pain, are not permanent, they are ever coming and going. Bear them, O descendant of Bharata! For, O chief of men! that sensible man whom they (pain and pleasure being alike to him) afflict not, he merits immortality. There is no existence for that which is unreal; there is no non-existence for that which is real. And the (correct) conclusion about both is perceived by those who perceive the truth. Know that to be indestructible which pervades all this; the destruction of that inexhaustible (principle) none can bring about. These bodies appertaining to the embodied (self) which is eternal, indestructible, and indefinable, are said 6 to be perishable; therefore do engage in battle, O descendant of Bharata! He who thinks it to be the killer and he who thinks it to be killed, both know nothing. It kills not, is not killed 1. It is not born, nor does it ever die, nor, having existed, does it exist no more. Unborn, everlasting, unchangeable, and primeval, it is not killed when the body is killed. O son of Prithâ! how can that man who knows it thus to be indestructible, everlasting, unborn, and inexhaustible, how and whom can he kill, whom can he cause to be killed? As a man, casting off old clothes, puts on others and new ones, so the embodied (self) casting off old bodies, goes to others and new ones. Weapons do not divide it (into pieces); fire does not burn it, waters do not moisten it; the wind does not dry it up. It is not divisible; it is not combustible; it is not to be moistened; it is not to be dried up. It is everlasting, all-pervading, stable, firm, and eternal. It is said to be unperceived, to be unthinkable, to be unchangeable. Therefore knowing it to be such, you ought not to grieve, But even if you think that it is constantly born, and constantly dies, still, O you of mighty arms! you ought not to grieve thus. For to one that is born, death is certain; and to one that dies, birth is certain.” (Gita 2:10-27). Ambedkar’s Comment: ‘The philosophic defence offered by the Bhagavad Gita of the Kshatriya’s duty to kill is to say the least puerile. To say that killing is no killing because what is killed is the body and not the soul is an unheard of defence of murder... If Krishna were to appear as a lawyer acting for a client who has been tried for murder and pleaded the defence set out by him in the Bhagavad Gita, there is not the slightest doubt that he would be sent to the lunatic asylum’ (THE ESSENTIAL WRITINGS OF B.R. AMBEDKAR edited by Valerian Rodrigues. Oxford University Press, New Delhi, 2002., pg 197). (E) Grace, Faith and Salvation Faith in Jesus Christ: “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10: 9) Faith or Work? "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, I perpetually cast into transmigration, into various demoniac species of life" (Gita 16:19). And also: "Those who worship me and surrender all their activities unto me, being devoted to me without hesitation, engaged in devotional service and meditating unto me, I deliver them quickly from the ocean of birth and death" (Gita 12:6-7). "When the Yogi engages himself in making further progress, being washed of all karma, he achieves liberation after many, many births" (Gita 6:45). (F) Guilt and its SolutionGuilt and Redeemer: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7: 15-25) Guilt and the Lack of Redeemer: “Arjuna said: But by whom, O descendant of Vrishni! is man impelled, even though unwilling, and, as it were, constrained by force, to commit sin? (Gita 3:36). Arjuna said: Seeing these kinsmen, O Krishna! standing (here) desirous to engage in battle, my limbs droop down; my mouth is quite dried up; a tremor comes on my body; and my hairs stand on end; the Gândîva (bow) slips from my hand; my skin burns intensely. I am unable, too, to stand up; my mind whirls round, as it were; O Kesava! I see adverse omens; and I do not perceive any good (to accrue) after killing (my) kinsmen in the battle. I do not wish for victory, O Krishna! nor sovereignty, nor pleasures: what is sovereignty to us, O Govinda! what enjoyments, and even life? Even those, for whose sake we desire sovereignty, enjoyments, and pleasures, are standing here for battle, abandoning life and wealth-preceptors, fathers, sons as well as grandfathers, maternal uncles, fathers-in-law, grandsons, brothers-in-law, as also (other) relatives. These I do not wish to kill, though they kill (me), O destroyer of Madhu 3! even for the sake of sovereignty over the three worlds, how much less then for this earth (alone)? What joy shall be ours, O Ganârdana! after killing Dhritarâshtra's sons? Killing these felons 1 we shall only incur sin. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill our own kinsmen, the sons of Dhritarâshtra. For how, O Mâdhava! shall we be happy after killing our own relatives? Although having their consciences corrupted by avarice, they do not see the evils flowing from the extinction of a family, and the sin in treachery to friends, still, O Ganârdana! should not we, who do see the evils flowing from the extinction of a family, learn to refrain from that sin? (Gita 1:30-35)

On the other hand Quran says: Truly man was created very impatient (Surah 70: 19-24). Man is created weak (Surah 4: 28). Man is created to be in distress (Surah 90:4). Quran says many are the Jinns and men Allah have made for hell (Surah 7:179).

KUALA LUMPUR: Yoga may soon be outlawed in Malaysia, if a prominent body of clerics which is planning to issue a fatwa on the practice, has its way. Malaysia's National Fatwa Council is going to impose Fatwa on Yoga after Zakaria Stapa, a lecturer of University of Kebangsaan's Islamic Studies Centre, yesterday advised Muslims who have taken up yoga to stop practising it fearing that it could deviate their belief, local news reports said. "A ruling would be made by the council's Chairman, Abdul Shukor Husin, in this regard," Deputy Director-General of the Department of Islamic Development Malaysia, Othman Mustapha, quoted as saying by New Straits Times online edition. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Malaysia_to_impose_fatwa_on_yoga/articleshow/3651300.cms

Not exactly Hell, but those who don't worship Krishna are not entitled for Moksha. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9 verse 24: As all the demigods verily comprise the transcendental body of the Supreme Lord Krishna then it is natural that He is the enjoyer of everything offered to them being the sole lord of all worship and propitiation and the ultimate bestower of all rewards. The worshippers of the demigods are ignorant of these facts and hence they are na tu mam abhijanam meaning unable to know Him the Supreme Lord thus they fall back into mortal existence and are subject to birth, old age, disease and death. But those who recognise the Supreme Lord as the inner ruler within all the demigods and worship Him do not return to mortal existence. -Swami Sridhar Lord Krishna speaks the words prabhur eva ca meaning that He alone is the sole bestower of rewards in every respect. Amazingly fascinating it is that humans who engage in the very selfsame activities of propitiation and worship are differentiated and classified by the simple difference of the intention and motive by which it was performed. Some performers of activities merit paltry, minimal results such as reaching the heavenly planets and when there allotment of time there has expired they have to start all over again. -Ramanuja For their efforts the worshippers of the demigods eventually ascend to the heavenly planets where at the exhaustion of their merit they fall back down to the worlds of mortals by the descending path of dhumah or smoke as directed by a demigod from Pitriloka the realm of the forefathers. But those who worship the Supreme Lord Krishna or any of His authorised incarnations and expansions as revealed in Vedic scriptures never return to material existence and the world of mortals. -Keshav Kashmiri Also check Prabhpada's translation of the verse. So if I worship Shiva, I'm an ignorant fool who's wasting a human birth worshipping demigod & hence i'm not entitled for Moksha.

Thank you Shrikanthji, I think this is exactly what barney is trying to convey in this wonderful post: "The lord is not a matter for belief. He is a matter for understanding. This world is not a matter for belief because you perceive it. Therefore Lord is also not something to be believed, it is a challenge to understand him. If the Lord is in heaven, not within the range of your perception or inference, then He becomes a matter of belief. In that case you simply accept what you are told without asking questions. But the Lord of the Hindus is not a matter for belief. Hindus do not simply believe in God, they understand God. That is the reason why Hindus even worship space. There are temples in India that worship the five elements. You don’t require a particular altar to invoke the Lord. You can invoke Him anywhere because what is it that is not the Lord? The whole Order is the Lord, all the laws are the Lord. We are objective when we are alive to the reality. We are talking about what is and so there is no question of belief. We can see that gold is different from copper and that is different from lead because each metal has its own atomic weight, its own physical and other properties. But a physicist knows that all of them are nothing but energy, quanta of energy. That is not a belief. If someone says, ‘I don’t see that’, then that person may have to believe, but that is not a belief that one has to live with and die with. What we have here is belief pending discovery. There is something to be understood. We understand the difference and at the same time, understand the non-difference, something more than meets the eye. That is the vision of the Veda that this whole universe is non-separate from the Lord because He is the efficient cause as well as the material cause. Since the Lord is everything, he is all the names, all the forms and therefore we can invoke Him in any name, any form. This is the mature way of looking at the worship of God. We can pray to Him in any language because He is Omniscient and therefore should know all languages. In fact He should respond even before we call Him. This is not tolerance or anything, this is only understanding. They say that Hindus are tolerant of various forms of worship. We are tolerant no doubt, but in this particular case, we are not just tolerant. We have total acceptance as far as worship is concerned, prayer is concerned. That is why very often we find many devatas, deities in a typical room of worship. Every aspect of the Lord is represented there. We look upon the Sun as God, so we have Surya devataa. We look upon air as God, so we have Vayudevataa; we look upon earth as God: so we have Prthividevataa and so on. We worship the efficient cause, the intelligent cause and the material becomes the symbol for that. We worship the omniscient, omnipotent Lord through the symbol of the material. The sun, the moon, air etc become the symbol through which we worship the Lord. We have a variety of devatas (deities) through which we worship one God. The Only God We don’t even say, ‘one God’. We say ‘only God’. When you say there is one God, that means you are different from Him and He is situated somewhere else. If God is different from you, He does not include you, which means His power does not include your power. If He is different from you, then He is different from me and different from all the living beings. That means God’s power does not include the power that you have, I have, that other gods and demi-gods have, that the mosquitoes and the bugs have. Then He can only be mighty but not Almighty. He is like my uncle who is also a very powerful man. But even a mighty person is subject to limitations. Even the president of the U.S.A, a mighty person, is subject to mosquito bites and attacks from viruses! Similarly, the mighty God will also be subject to such limitations. So, understand, it is not that there is one God. There is only God and so if someone invokes Him as Allah, that is fine; if someone invokes Him as Jesus, that is also fine. We have no problem at all. If someone cannot accept the fact of people invoking God in different names and forms, it is his/her problem. We have no problem because we do not have many gods, we do not even have one God, we have only God." http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hinduism/23117-god-has-understood-not-believed.html I never liked this idea of God being one, it's so autocratic, worship only Me or you'll be punished in hell. If I don't worship only Krishna, or consider him a supreme being, i'm not entitled for Moksha, nonsense. Why shouldn't anyone have the liberty of worshipping an 'Ishta' ? So sad people like barney are not visiting this forum anymore, mebbe these iskconites must have chased him away.

I think youve not read The Bhagavad Gita 'As it is'. Here's what Srila Prabhupada has to say on the verse no. 23. 'When Srila Prabhupada came to Melbourne for Ratha-yatra in 1974, he heard about our worshiping of Ganesha and performing puja to him, and called for Jayadharma Prabhu and myself to come to his room. Jayadharma Prabhu was the Australian general manager of Spiritual Sky at the time. Srila Prabhupada told us immediately to stop this worship of Ganesha, adding: "Our ISKCON properties are NOT for demigod worship, our devotees are to exclusively worship Radha-Krishna, Gaura-Nitai, and Balarama, Subhadra, and Jagannatha, and to also celebrate other various Vishnu-tattva's like Lord Ramachandra, etc., though, our main focus is worshiping Radha and Krishna. "We always offer proper respects to all the demigods. We must always know however, that no demigod is equal to or above the Supreme Lord. "Our ISKCON temples are known as Hare Krishna or Radha-Krishna temples, this is what we want people also in India to understand. Even on our Spiritual Sky incense packet there is Radha-Krishna." "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (Bhagavad-gita 7:23.) So obviously, our worship of Ganasha at Spiritual Sky incense factory came to an abrupt end. Hari Bol, All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Your fallen servant, Gauragopala dasa' http://namahatta.org/en/node/8448 No where in Bhagavad Gita 'As it is' it is mentioned that Krishna is referring to the me of you, I and all of us. From the above it is clear that Krishna is the only Supreme being, He is the one who's created everything including me, so I should worship only HIM (there's no HER) & you're saying Krishna is referring to the me of you, I and all of us.

Books like Bhagavad Gita, Koran, Bible are superannuated. some scientists & not pedants like ISKCONITES & paarsurrey have concluded that 'Shiva' has possibleness. you expect people to believe this Krishna second coming & third coming & fourth coming non-sense ?

The real problem is when people don't mind their own businesses & start poking their noses in others affairs, telling them what's written in their "books" & what they should believe, as if they themselves are not capable of interpreting what's written in their books. Yes now the Hindus need omniscient souls like you & Zakir Naik & all the hipsters of Audarya to make them understand what's written in Vedas. There are enough security forces to take good care of the miscreants, so don't you worry about any bloodshed.

antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam devan deva-yajo yanti mad-bhakta yanti mam api BG 7:23 Now would a down-to-earth person say only by worshipping Me a devotee can reach My supreme planet & not by worshipping demigods ? isn't this egoistic ? What happens to people who don't believe in Krishna ? Is it Krishna doesn't love the non-beleivers (kafirs) ?

Probably Krishna is one of them, he married princess Rukhmini & so many women, he cannot be GOD, how can anyone in human avatar be GOD ? You are very much correct. Thank you.

Why did he choose Kashmir ? Why not Mecca ? Who were living in Mecca those days ? barbarians ? Anyway do us a favour, there are no. of hippies here, take them off our hands & convert them to islam.

The parallel between Shiva’s dance and the dance of subatomic particles was discussed by Fritjof Capra in 1972 in an article titled ‘The Dance of Shiva: The Hindu View of Matter in the Light of Modern Physics‘ Shiva’s cosmic dance then became a central metaphor in Capra’s international bestseller The Tao of Physics, first published in 1975 and still in print in over 40 editions around the world. He says that “every subatomic particle not only performs an energy dance, but also is an energy dance; a pulsating process of creation and destruction…without end… For the modern physicists then Shiva’s dance is the dance of subatomic matter. As in Hindu mythology, it is a continual dance of creation and destruction involving the whole cosmos; the basis of all existence and of all natural phenomena.” “The Wave Structure of Matter Explains the Atomic Structure of Matter. The ‘Particle’ as the Wave-Center of a Spherical Standing Wave in Space explains the cosmic dance of Nataraja” Fritjof Capra, on the cover of his book had reproduced the photomontage of dancing Nataraja super imposed on subatomic particles photographed in a chamber. (In the present day editions this has been replaced with a Yin and Yang symbol) This is a strikingly similar comparison by a great modern scientist to Swamiji’s description of Lord Shiva. Capra is a foremost proponent of the’wave theory’ on the basis of which the massive Hadron collider experiment is being carried out. This establishes that ancient Hindu scriptural knowledge explains the fabric of time and space as seen by great Rishis of the time, and which is perceivable by great saints even today, without the need for a 27 km long machine like the Hadron collider! Eminent scholar G.P. Srinivasan says: “Fritjof Capra is correct that matter can not be separated from motion; the error of modern physics has been in the conception of Motion as the motion of Matter (’subatomic particles’) rather than the wave motion of Space. Western Physics (with its ‘particles’ and ‘forces / fields’ in ‘Space Time’) has never correctly understood the Eastern worldview. It is also important to understand that the ancient Indian philosophers did actually know how the universe was a dynamic unity, what matter was, how the One Thing / Brahman caused and connected the many things….Recent discoveries on the properties of Space and the Wave Structure of Matter (Wolff, Haselhurst) confirm that we can understand Reality and the interconnection of all things from a logical/scientific foundation.” Sir Jacob Epstein (1880-1959), leading English Sculptor, also wrote about Shiva-Nataraja:”Shiva dances, creating the world and destroying it, his large rhythms conjure up vast eons of time, and his movements have a relentless magical power of incantation. Our European allegories are banal and pointless by comparison with these profound works, devoid of the trappings of symbolism, concentrating on the essential, and the essentially plastic’. Shiva is the Divine Dancer, visualized in terms of motion and vibration, who in 108 varied movements interprets the mathematical Law of the Universe. According to the great Art Historian Dr. Ananda K. Coomarswamy, (1877-1947) the dance of Shiva represents his following five activities namely, l ‘Shrishti’ - creation, evolution l ‘Sthiti’ - preservation, support l ‘Samhara’ - destruction, evolution l ‘Tirobhava’ - illusion l ‘Anugraha’-release, emancipation, grace He states in his famous book ‘Dance of Shiva‘ that Lord Shiva as represented in the Nataraja form is a remarkably resplendent wonder of the aesthetic world. He puts it in beautiful words : “The Indian Nataraja may well be claimed as the clearest, most logical and impassioned statement of the conception of life as an eternal Becoming. This is His dance in the last night of the world when the stars fall from their courses and all is reduced to ashes, to be ever rekindled, ever renewed by the boundless power of the Lord. The Dionysian frenzy of his whirling dance presents affirmation of the eternal, unseen spectacle of the dynamic disintegration and renewal, birth and death, of all cosmic matter in every second as in every kalpa of time’. Thus Nataraja typifies the universe in the action of creation and destruction. The overall temper of the image is paradoxical, uniting the inner tranquillity, and outside activity of Lord Shiva.” Nataraj is the “clearest image of the activity of God which any art or religion can boast of…A more fluid and energetic representation of a moving figure than the dancing figure of Shiva can scarcely be found anywhere,” (quotes from the book The Dance of Shiva by Coomaraswamy) To sum up, here’s an excerpt from a beautiful poem by Ruth Peel: “The source of all movement, Shiva’s dance, Gives rhythm to the universe. He dances in evil places, In sacred, He creates and preserves, Destroys and releases. We are part of this dance This eternal rhythm, And woe to us if, blinded By illusions, We detach ourselves From the dancing cosmos, This universal harmony…” http://words.srdaramagiri.org/?p=164 <param name="movie" value=" "></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Most people today must be aware of the ‘large Hadron Collider’ in Switzerland , unveiled with much fanfare this month . Its purpose is to recreate the primordial conditions of the universe, and create a small version of the so-called ‘big bang’, by smashing atoms at near-light speed. However few people are aware that on June 18, 2004, an unusual landmark was unveiled at CERN, the European Centre for Research in Particle Physics in Geneva - a 2m tall statue of the Hindu deity ‘Nataraja’ who is none other than ‘Shiva’. The statue, symbolizing Shiva’s cosmic dance of creation and destruction, was given to CERN by the Indian Government to celebrate the research centre’s long association with India. Nataraj, the dancing form of Lord Shiva, is a symbolic synthesis of the most important aspects of Hinduism, and the summary of the central tenets of this Vedic religion. The term ‘Nataraj’ means ‘King of Dancers’ (Sanskrit nata = dance; raja = king). A special plaque next to the Shiva statue explains the significance of the metaphor of Shiva’s cosmic dance with several quotations from top physicist Fritjof Capra’s book - The Tao of Physics. Here is a quotation from Fritjof Capra that has been put in that special plaque “Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but is also the very essence of inorganic matter and for the modern physicists, then, Shiva’s dance is the dance of subatomic matter. Hundreds of years ago, Indian artists created different forms of visual images of dancing Shiva in a beautiful series of bronzes. In our time, physicists have used the most advanced technology to portray the patterns of the cosmic dance. The metaphor of the cosmic dance thus unifies ancient mythology, religious art and modern physics.” Jagadguru Swami Sathyananda Saraswathy describes Shiva thus: The word Shiva means ‘prosperity’ which is achieved only when liberation is attained from all bondage. The experience of becoming liberated from all attachments is got from the Shiva concept : "Ashtamyam Vrujatae Rudram Pasoonam cha Patim Tadha" (Nadabindu) The mystic spell ‘OM’ has 12 measures or magnitudes. The ascetic who gives up the gross body during the eighth magnitude of ‘OM’ reaches the plane of ‘Rudra’ or the ‘Rudra World’. It is also called ‘Pasupati Loka’. The experiences of the ’self’ from the time of creation pass through endless crores of births and ultimately reach the condition of salvation. When Shiva is perceived as an individual the principle relating to the self should not be forgotten. Swamiji explains from the Shiva Purana as: "Brahmadyas Trigunadheeshah Shivas Trigunatah Parah Nirvikari Parabrahma Turiah Prakritah Parah." Shiva has been praised in the ‘Shiva Purana’ as the form of the infinite. Shiva remains beyond qualities in the emotionless condition of the infinite. "Jnaana Swaroopoh Vyaayah Saakshi Jnaana Gamyoh Dwayah Swayam Kaivallya Muktidah Swoh Tra Trivargasya Prdoh Pi Hi." Shiva who is in the inherently unioversal condition is of the form of knowledge, is eternal and is also onewho offers liberation and salvation. The Trivargas (dharma, artha and kama) have originated from Shiva. The Satva (saintly), Rajas(kingly) and Tamas(lowly) qualities are also included in the Trivargas. Vruddhi, Sthiti and Kshaya also may be included in it. From this it is explicit that the concept of ‘Brahman’ or infinite which is the causal object of the origin of nature is itself ‘Shiva’. "Shrushtach Purvah Shivah Proktah Shrushtaer Madhye Shivastatha Shrushtaer antae Shivah Proktaeh Sarvashoonyae Tatha Shivah." Shiva existed before creation and exists during and after creationas well as during the deluge when everything is destroyed. "Brahmadi Trunaparyandham Yat kinid drusyatae Twicha Tat Sarvam Shiva Evasti Midhya Nanathwakalpana" Everything seen in the form of creation from ‘Brahma’(the god of creation) to the grass is Shiva. What seems to be anything else is non-existent. The God of infinite who holds everything and lives in everything permeates at the same time in all the conditions of the endless universe.

This incident is mentioned in Uttar Kaand, which was never written by Maharishi Valmiki f.y.k.i. besides Vaishnavites like Tulsidas also don't forget that Hindu scriptures were subject to heavy interpolation during Mughal & British raj for obvious reasons.

With friends like this who needs enemies ? it is common among gods to marry sister.

What I meant is if a hindu convert is required to change his/her name, adopt a new dress code & hairdo along the lines of their muslims & at times like catholic & buddhist counterparts, than it is not so. If I want to convert to some other religion, why should I change my name, shave my head & moustaches or grow a loooong beard or start wearing headdresses (24x7 ) or wear typical clothes. Where is the need for a "convert" to show off ?

Why do these converts change their name ? especially the Hare Krishnas. Does the name Stephen Knapp make him any lesser hindu ? can the Hare Krishnas give a rational explanation ? is it mandatory ? Christian & Muslim converts have to change their name, such a practice can never be Vedic.