ethos

Hayagriva dasa: Bacon says something very much like this. He writes: “It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth mens’ minds about to relgion.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: “It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.” (Bg. 14.4) If we have a little intelligence and think about this verse, we can understand that all living entities are coming from some womb. Since everyone is the child os some mother, there must be a father. When we are grown, we must understand our father, his property, and his desire. How can we deny a universal father? Hayagriva dasa: This is Bacon’s conclusion: “For a while, the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Diety.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes. this is the version given in Bhagavad-gita. “I am the origin of everything. Everything emanates from Me.” (Bg. 10.8) The Vedanta-sutra also states: janmadyasya yatah. “The Supreme Being is He from whom everything is emanating.” It is a fact that there must be a source of everything, and it is the business of philosophy to find that original source. It is neither scientific nor philosophic to try to obscure or ignore the original source. Hayagriva dasa: Concerning superstition, Bacon writes: “It were better to have no opinion of God at all then such an opinion as is unworthy of Him. For one is unbelief, and the other is contumely.” Srila Prabhupada: Why should we remain superstitious? Why not introduce education whereby everyone can understand God and His nature? We are trying to establish such an institution with this Krsna consciousness movement. If the government participates and cooperates, the masses of people can understand this science of God and benefit.

Hayagriva dasa: Bacon disliked mental speculation about God because we cannot expect God to conform to our own conception. Due to God’s infinitude, no conception of God can be unbelievable. By and large, Bacon relegated theology to the realm of faith, and science to the realm of knowledge of the world. Srila Prabhupada: It is good to be a master architect and make a house with all modern facilities, but if these facilities cause us to forget life’s real aim, we have lost a great deal. It is better to remain without facilities, evacuate in the field, and bathe in the river, than overly concern ourselves with modern amenities, facilities for a pampered life. If we forget our real business––how to revive God consciousness––we have not advanced but regressed. Hayagriva dasa: Bacon did not conceive of science as being a disunifying factor as far as religion or God is concerned. Rather, he believed that science could enable civilization to progress. It could be a binding force between man and God. Srila Prabhupada: That is certainly a very good idea, but many modern scientists are denying the existence of God. Many are claiming that God is dead, that there is no need of God, or that we can manufacture God and man in our own way. Hayagriva dasa: Bacon considered some knowledge to be supernatural in that it comes from God, whereas other forms of knowledge are attained through man’s own attempts. He admits that the material senses are imperfect and act like false mirrors, which distort the actual world. Thus men are constantly being deceived. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, although they are advancing the cause of material science, they are forgetting God in the process. This is most degrading. Men should prove by scientific methods that God exists and is doing everything. Scientists should use a scientific method to understand how the supreme intelligent Being is working. God’s scientific knowledge is perfect, and knowledge that complies with this is very good. But if men have a little knowledge and defy the existence of God, their knowledge is useless. So their little knowledge has become a dangerous thing.

Hayagriva dasa: Francis Bacon is generally acknowledged as the founding father of modern science in England, and although he did not work in a modern laboratory like today’s scientists, he inspired what has become known as the scientific method. He believed that science could give man a mastery over nature that would improve his life on this earth. For Bacon, science was not simply an intellectual or academic undertaking, but a utilitarian one. Srila Prabhupada: It is erroneous for Bacon or any other scientist to think that science can control nature. It is not possible to control birth, old age, disease, and death. During our lifetime, we may be able to make some changes and give some facilities, but that is not the ultimate end.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes contends that in the natural state, man is like all other animals. Might makes right, and the strongest always prevail. Therefore it is necessary that man form a social contract and volunteer to restrict natural liberties fo the sake of self-preservation. Srila Prabhupada: That is not natural liberty but ghostly liberty. There are many haunted people, and in their unnatural condition they are falsely thinking, “I am God.” The natural condition is to think, “I am God’s servant.” Any condition devoid of Krsna consciousness is unnatural. Krsna is the supreme, and I am His subordinate. My business is to render service unto Him. This is the natural position. Syamasundara dasa: Yet when men group together in a society to preserve themselves, they make a contract to the effect that they will not kill one another. Srila Prabhupada: Why not a group of asses? What is their utility? Do you mean to say that because a group of asses congregate that some good will come of it? Those rogues are always making contracts after a big war. After World War I, they made a contract through the League of Nations, and that failed. Then they had a second World War, and they formed the United Nations and made more contracts. Eventually that will all be dissolved again. These contracts and compromises may serve some purposes for the time being, but ultimately they are useless. Syamasundara dasa: Men in society volunteer, “I will not kill you or steal your property if you will not kill me or steal my property.” Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the thieves’ contract. But, after all, if you remain a thief, what is the improvement? Thieves may steal some valuable things, and afterwards they congregate and say, “Let’s divide this property honestly.” Thieves are all dishonest, although they talk of honesty among themselves. Originally, everyone immigrated to America, and the whole land was stolen from the Indians. Now the thieves have formed a government and will not allow outsiders in without visas and passports and so many things. This is the kind of morality that is going on. Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes’s social contract was something like the converse of the Golden Rule: “Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.” Srila Prabhupada: That was also Buddha’s theory. Lord Buddha pointed out that if someone hurts us, we feel pain. Why, therefore, should we hurt others? Of course, third and forth-class men have to be taught in this way. But in Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna, “Kill them!” Does this mean that Krsna’s positioon is reduced? It is a question of the intelligence of the men involved. Syamasundara dasa: Well Hobbes is trying to determine how society can live peacefully. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, people have tried many times but have always failed. There cannot be any peace in this material world. Krsna says plainly: “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.” (Bg. 8.16) Since this is a place of misery, how can we establish peace here? We cannot. The material universe is structured in such a way that peace is not possible. As Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says: samsara-davanala-lidha-loka (Sri Gurv-astaka, 1). This material world is exactly like a blazing forest fire. No one wants to fight, but fighting takes place. How can you check it simply by making a contract? We are thinking that the material world is a nice place to live, but this is like a man thinking that stool is nice because it has been dried in the sun. If the stool is soft, it is not so good. But in either case, it is stool. Padam padam yad vipadah na tesam (Bhag. 10.14.58) In this world, there is danger at every step. Throughout history, people have tried to make contracts for peace, but it is not possible. one may refuse to subnit, but nature will not allow this. If we do not submit to Krsna, nature will punish us so that we will finally be obliged to submit to Him. That is nature’s law. If we voluntarily sumit to Krsna, that is for our benefit, but if we do not, nature’s laws are so stringent that they will always give us trouble, and at the end we will be obliged to agree: vasudevaù sarvam iti. “Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything.” (Bg. 7.19) If, after many births of struggle, we have to come to this point, why waste our time? Why not surrender to Krsna immediately? Otherwise, we will go on suffering according to nature’s law.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes is called a utilitarian because he accepts a thing only if it’s pragmatic or useful. Srila Prabhupada: That is relative. A child is satisfied if you give him five rupees, but if you give his father five rupees, the man will think, “What is the use of this?” So the utility of five rupees is relative. Hobbe’s conceptin of utility is not the same as Krsna’s conception. Arjuna was thinking that he was speaking like a very learned man, but immediately Krsna told him that he was not (Bg. 2.11). All ths is relative. The hog thinks that he is in a comfortable position and is eating very nicely, but he is eating stool and living in garbage. Crows believe one thing, and swans believe another. An imperfect man like Hobbes may believe one thing to be pragmatic, but one who is perfect may consider something totally different to be pragmatic. Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes accepted religion only as a practical instrument. He says that it doesn’t have any real value as a science but that it may be used by the sate to pacify the people or to keep them confused. Srila Prabhupada: That means he does not know what religion is. Of course, some people have made religion into a certain type of faith, but actually religion means one’s inherent characteristic. Religion is to the living entity what sweetness is to sugar. It is an inherent characteristic that cannot be separated. Every living entity is rendering service to someone. Everyone is subordinate to someone else, or to his senses. It is the characteristic of the living entity to be subordinate and to render service. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, “Surrender unto Me.” (Bg. 18.66) That is our first business, but we are too busy trying to become Krsna. Therefore we say, “I am God,” or “You are God,” or, “We are all God.” The living entity is not the supreme God, but he is playing that way. When a man is haunted by ghosts, he says many nonsensical things. Similarly, when the living entitiy is under the clutches of the material energy, he speaks in such a way. Syamasundara dasa: What about this idea of utility? What do you think of something being accepted only as long a it is useful? Srila Prabhupada: It is our foolishness that we accept something temporarily useful. Our real desire is to have eternal life. We want something that is eternally useful, but in the material world we are always being frustrated. We want to live here permanently, but nature will not allow this. Even if there is no disturbance in the form of war, we will still not be allowed to remain. Syamasundara dasa: A utilitarian would say that a thing should be used only insofar as it is required for some time. Then something else can be used, and in this way we can adjust things indefinitely. Srila Prabhupada: But another point is that no one wants anything to change. Why? People want permanence because they are seeking their eternal, spiritual nature. Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes might say that although we may be seeking something eternal, we may employ temporary things just as long as they are useful. Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we must know what our eternal life is; then we can try to use everything favorable to further that end. Krsna is the ultimate goal, and whatever is favorable in helping us toward Him should be accepted. that is utilitarianism. For instance, Arjuna said, “What should I do? Kill or not kill? Krsna wants me to kill. All right, I’ll kill.” This is utilitarianism. Syamasundara dasa: For Hobbes, the goal is a peaceful society. Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. The goal should be the advancement of Krsna consciousness. then peace will follow automatically. Syamasundara dasa: His utilitarianism means the acceptance of whatever is favorable for the preservation of society. Srila Prabhupada: In any case society cannot be preserved. so many societies have come and gone. British society. Roman society. Greek society. Only Krsna’s society is eternal. Knowing this is intelligence. Nitya-lila pravista. “Now he has entered the eternal society of Krsna.” This is what we say when our guru passes away. We are accepting Krsna as the Supreme and glorifying Him here on earth. This same process will go on there in the spiritual sky, in Krsna’s abode. However, there it will take plac in a perfect way. Here we are just practicing.

Syamasundara dasa: But how is it that the soul is not produced by the body? How do we know that it is not a mere by-product? Srila Prabhupada: At death, all physical parts of the body are present. But why is the man dead? What is missing? His heart may be present, but why is it not beating? All the parts of the body may be present, yet you can see that the body is dead. What is it that is missing? Syamasundara dasa: Impulses are no longer being sent from the brain to the heart. Srila Prabhupada: But why has the brain stoppped? The brain’s construction is all there. What is missing? Why not replace what is missing? If you are a mechanic, and the machine stops, you should be able to find the defect and immediately repair it. But no one has been able to do this with the body, no scientist or philosopher. They cannot meet such a challenge.

Very nice picture. Looks like the perfect oasis. Could the original poster or anyone tell me how this picture was posted in the text block? I have not been able to do it.

Ya know, it occurs to me that Prabhupada never used the telephone––cetainly not managing from several phone lines into an office. Nor did he correspond with his disciples and their inquiries that way. Is all this correct? And if so, why would Prabhupada have opted not to use telephone technology? Any comments or answers out there?

Everything I Need to Know I Learned In Corporate America 1. Indecision is the key to flexibility. 2. You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the track. 3. There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation. 4. Happiness is merely the remission of pain. 5. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. 6. Sometimes too much to drink is not enough. 7. The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant. 8. The careful application of terror is also a form of communication. 9. Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world. 10. Things are more like they are today than they ever were before. 11. Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for. 12. Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. 13. Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate. 14. I have seen the truth and it makes no sense. 15. Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism. 16. If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody. 17. If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame. 18. One seventh of your life is spent on Monday. 19. By the time you make ends meet, they move the ends. 20. Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious. 21. There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. 22. This is as bad as it can get, but don't count on it. 23. Never wrestle a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. 24. The trouble with life is, you're halfway through it before you realize it's a do-it-yourself thing. 25. Youth and skill are no match for experience and treachery. 26. No amount of advance planning will ever replace dumb luck. 27. Anything you do can get you fired; this includes doing nothing. 28. Money can't buy happiness; it can, however, rent it. 29. Never pass a snow plow on the right. 30. If you can smile when everything goes wrong, you probably don't understand the problem. 31. Morning people: "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise." 32. Night people: "Anybody who goes to bed the same day they got up is a quitter."

Three buddies are sitting around talking one day when they begin to discuss what they would like their friends and families to say about them as they're laying in their caskets at their funerals. The first man says, "I would like to hear them say that I was a great doctor of my time, and a great family man." The second man says, " I would like to hear that I was a wonderful husband and school teacher which made a huge difference in our children of tomorrow." The last guy replies, " I would like to hear them say...LOOK!! HE'S MOVING!!!"

Hayagriva dasa: This cyncial view of mankind was partially based on the Christian doctrine––or at least on the doctrine of Augustine––which held that man is by nature corrupt. Whereas Augustine believed in the saving grace of God, Machiavelli believed in man’s willpower to overcome bad fortune. Srila Prabhupada: But who adjusts good and bad fortune? If we consider good and bad fortune, we must consider a dispenser, a supreme power or controller, and that supreme power is God. Therefore people should be educated in God consciousness by reading transcendental literatures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli’s attitude toward religion has greatly influenced modern governments. He considered religion to be a department of the state; it should not be separate in the sense that it should not compete. Srila Prabhupada: In that I agree. It is the government’s duty to give protection to religion, and if that religion is scientific, the state will be sound. America is presently strong in many respects, and now America must become strong in God consciousness. It is very good to write, “In God We Trust,” but we must also know who God is and why we should trust in Him. We are therefore trying to introduce this science of God, Krsna consciousness. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli felt that as long as religion is not detrimental to the state, the state may accept it as valid. but in one sense, religion is subordinate to the state. Srila Prabhupada: Of course, they are separate, but the state must know what religion is and how to introduce it to the general public. there is no question of blind faith. The government is maintaining many different departments: an engineering department, medical department, military department, and so forth. Similarly, a religious department may be subordinate to the state because all other departments are subordinate, but religion must be based on scientific knowledge. If the state takes advantage of the Vedic literatures, it can introduce a scientific system of religion. Then the people will be knowledgeable and happy. Hayagriva dasa: For Machiavelli, the only sin is not acting for the common good. First, the ruler must protect the citizens from physical harm. Citizens are happy when they obey the laws, follow customs, and pray to God. Srila Prabhupada: If the ruler must first of all protect the citizens from physical harm, how can he advocate animal slaughter? Animals are also subjects because theya re born in a country. A citizen is anyone who is born in a state. So how can a ruler discriminate between one type of citizen and another? If he discriminates, he cannot speak of common good. He can only say “man’s good.” According to the common good, animals as well as men are protected. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli placed love of country and the common good above everything else. He rarely uses the word “God” or “Providence,” but prefers the word “fortune.” It is fortune that plays tricks on men and changes friends into enemies. Srila Prabhupada: If God is fortune, who is misfortune? Since God is the supreme controller, He is both fortune and misfortune. When you act wrongly, punishment comes from God, and when you act properly, the reward come from God. Hayagriva dasa: Love of country transcends everything religious and moral, so that one may even lose his own soul for his country’s sake. Indeed, Machiavelli wrote: “I love my country more than my soul.” Srila Prabhupada: But how long will he remain in his country? Hayagriva dasa: Well, he remained from 1469 to 1527. Srila Prabhupada: So what is that? Time and the soul are eternal. Such deification of one’s country is not very intelligent.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli was very fond of speaking of “the common good,” and he set love of country and the common good above the Christian love of God. Srila Prabhupada: But what is his common good? He is thinking that people must have enough to eat, but it is for the common good of everyone to love God. Love of God is for everyone, and God is one. When we become lovers of God, our lives are perfected. Hayagriva dasa: But if the people are basically wicked, he argued, a strong prince is necessary to control them. Srila Prabhupada: Why should the people remain wicked? It is the king’s duty to see that all the citizens become gentlemen. He should not allow them to remain wicked. The educational, social, and religious systems should be so perfect that the people become God conscious. At least a sector of the people, the brahmanas, should be perfect. Hayagriva dasa: But he felt that if the prince were perfectly virtuous or truthful in all cases, he couldn’t possibly survive in the political world. Srila Prabhupada: That is why there are social divisions: brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. It is not possible for everyone to be truthful, but at least a section of the people should be ideal so that others can take advantage of their good advice. It is not that everyone is in the same position, not that everyone should join the military. Only those who are interested in fighting should join the military. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli recommended compulsory military service as a primary form of education for everyone. Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is meant for everyone. There must be divisions. Machiavelli had no idea that brahminical training is absolutely necessary for intelligent men. Hayagriva dasa: Since youth should especially become used to hardships, he considered war as a form of education. Srila Prabhupada: Well, any education requires hardships, and to become a brahmaëa or brahmacari requires the greatest hardships. In any case, there must be educational divisions, just as there are divisions in the human body: the head, arms, belly, and legs. Military education is education of the arms, but where is the education for the brain? Unless the head is educated, how will the arms act? Hayagriva dasa: Michiavelli recommended a democratic republic for a society consisting of virtuous people. In such a state, the ruler must obtain the people’s consent. But he considered such a society to be purely Utopian. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, a completely virtuous society is Utopian in this age. It is not possible. Yet a section of the population can be ideally virtuous, and the remainder may take lessons from them. It is not possible for everyone to become a brahmaë¢, but a few can be trained. The sky may be full of stars, but one moon is all this is necessary. If the populace consists of fools and rascals, how can anything be managed? There must be at least a section that shines like the moon.

“O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve, by discharging his duties prescribed [dharma] according to caste divisions and orders of life, is to please the Lord Hari.” (Bhag. 1.2.13) According to the sastras, there are social divisions–– brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra––and these divisions allow for proper management. It is the king’s duty to divide human society according to the varnasrama-dharma. There should be genuine brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras, brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis. No one should cheat but should carry out his duty accordingly. The king must know what is sin so that he can take precautions against it. But if he supports sinful activities––for instance, if he maintains a slaughterhouse––how can he become sinless? The sastras say that the king attains political power by pious activities, but if he does not give security to the citizens, he looses his power automatically. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli certainly believed that the people should be protected, but he also believed in the use of power and might. If there are internal difficulties, they must be put down by force. If this proves impossible, the prince should divert people’s attention by starting a war abroad. he even felt that it was better to go to war than to remain neutral because a neutral nation is hated by the loser and not repected by the winner. Consequently, he praised power and war. Srila Prabhupada: He praises war because he cannot manage internally. That is most inhumane. Hayagriva dasa: “Trouble at home, war abroad” is one of his most famous points. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and sometimes the governments create artificial restlessness and poverty. we have seen in 1940, when the Second World War was going on, that the government created an artificial famine in order to get men to fight. People who didn’t work had no alternative but to join the military. The government increased the price of food, and I remember the price of rice jumping from six rupees to ten rupees. the very next day, the price rose to twenty rupees. Then it jumped again to fifty rupees, whereas formerly it was only six. This is all the results of politics. When the government is not pious or strong, this will go on, and the people will be unhappy. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli’s view of man was very cynical. He wrote: “In constituting and legislating for a commonwealth, it must be taken for granted that all men are wicked.” Srila Prabhupada: This is not philosophy, considering all men wicked. Hayagriva dasa: Well, he considered that men are so created that they desire all things, although they cannot acquire them. men are never satisfied. As soon as they have one thing, they crave another. Srila Prabhupada: Therefore it is the duty of the government to introduce Krsna consciousness so that the people can know the way of peace and happiness. Hayagriva dasa: As long as the prince benefitted the people, they would be entirely his. Srila Prabhupada: But he must know how to benefit them.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli didn’t say that this is the way political life ought to be. Rather, since this is the way political life is at present, this is the best way a prince can rule. Srila Prabhupada: Our principles should be the same, whether in the past, present, or future. Krsna delivered Bhagavad-gita millions of years ago to the king of the sun, Vivasvan. Five thousand years ago he repeated these same principles to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kuruksetra. It is not that the principles have changed. Whether one is a prince, president, or whatever, the ruling principles should be maintained. Then the people will benefit. It is said that when Maharaja Yudhisthira ruled, the people suffered neither from intense heat nor intense cold. There was regular rainfall, and people were free rom all anxiety. Such is an ideal kingdom in which the people are happy in all respects. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli thought that the ruler should take the sins of the state upon himself, just as Christ took upon himself the sins of the world. Srila Prabhupada: But if the ruler himself is sinful, how can he assume the sins of others? Hayagriva dasa: Well, Machiavelli felt that evil in politics was a necessity. He writes: “A man who wishes to make a profession of goodness in everything must necessarily come to grief among so many who are not good.” Srila Prabhupada: But if one is not good himself, how can he introduce anything that is good? Presently, in India, there are many people claiming to be big mahatmas, religionists, scholars, and politicians, but they cannot even protect the cows. Bhagavad-gita says: “Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaiçyas.” (Bg. 18.44) It is at least the duty of the state to protect the cow, which is a special animal. It is the king’s duty to protect the welfare of all citizens, including the cows. If the king or president does no more than sit in an exalted position, the people will not be happy. Even in America, the people dragged their president down when they were discontent with him. In any case, the head of state must be ideal and exhibit the ideal princely characteristics. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli suggested that since the people usually desire peace, the prince should promote peace in his public addresses. On the other hand, the army always prefers war, which gives opportunities for promotion, and the prince should also appease the militarists. Although publically promoting peace, the prince can break his promise whenever necessary to start a war abroad, especially when there is trouble at home. Srila Prabhupada: No one can introduce peace unless he is educated in God consciousness. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita: “The sages, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.” (Bg. 5.29) The king should not think of his kingdom as his property or his father’s property. Rather, knowing himself to be the representative of the Supreme Father, he must understand that the state belongs to the Supreme Father. He is a representative whose duty is to protect the state and the citizens. the proprietor of the state is God Himself. There is not a spot of land throughout the universe that is not owned by the Supreme personality of Godhead; therefore all property should be engaged for the satsifaction of God. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. Everything must be carried out for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, and this is ideal activity for all societies.

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Just as one may imitate persons whom one sees dancing and singing, similarly the soul, although never the doer of material activities, becomes captivated by material intelligence and is thus forced to imitate its qualities. Prabhupada's Purport: Sometimes people are captivated by professional singers and dancers and imitate within their minds the musical rhythms and melodies of the performers along with their romantic, humorous or heroic emotions. People sing songs heard on the radio and imitate dances and dramatic performances seen on television or in movies and theaters, entering into the emotions and art of the performer. The conditioned soul is similarly captivated by the concoctions of the material mind and intelligence, which convince him that he can become the enjoyer of the material world. Although different from the material body and never the actual performer of its activities, the conditioned soul is induced to engage his body in material activities, which entangle him in the cycle of birth and death. One should not accept the illicit propositions of material intelligence, but rather should engage himself fully in the service of the Lord in Krsna consciousness. The soul’s material life, his experience of sense gratification, is actually false, O descendant of Dasarha, just like trees’ appearance of quivering when the trees are reflected in agitated water, or like the earth’s appearance of spinning due to one’s spinning his eyes around, or like the world of a fantasy or dream. For one who is meditating on sense gratification, material life, although lacking factual existence, does not go away, just as the unpleasant experiences of a dream do not. Therefore, O Uddhava, do not try to enjoy sense gratification with the material senses. See how illusion based on material dualities prevents one from realizing the self. Even though neglected, insulted, ridiculed or envied by bad men, or even though repeatedly agitated by being beaten, tied up or deprived of one’s occupation, spat upon or polluted with urine by ignorant people, one who desires the highest goal in life should in spite of all these difficulties use his intelligence to keep himself safe on the spiritual platform. (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.22.35-59)

Although the illumination of a lamp consists of innumerable rays of light undergoing constant creation, transformation and destruction, a person with illusory intelligence who sees the light for a moment will speak falsely, saying, “This is the light of the lamp.” As one observes a flowing river, ever-new water passes by and goes far away, yet a foolish person, observing one point in the river, falsely states, “This is the water of the river.” Similarly, although the material body of a human being is constantly undergoing transformation, those who are simply wasting their lives falsely think and say that each particular stage of the body is the person’s real identity. A person does not actually take birth out of the seed of past activities, nor, being immortal, does he die. By illusion the living being appears to be born and to die, just as fire in connection with firewood appears to begin and then cease to exist. Impregnation, gestation, birth, infancy, childhood, youth, middle age, old age and death are the nine ages of the body. Although the material body is different from the self, because of the ignorance due to material association one falsely identifies oneself with the superior and inferior bodily conditions. Sometimes a fortunate person is able to give up such mental concoction. By the death of one’s father or grandfather one can surmise one’s own death, and by the birth of one’s son one can understand the condition of one’s own birth. A person who thus realistically understands the creation and destruction of material bodies is no longer subject to these dualities. Prabhupada's Purport: The Lord has described the nine stages of the material body, beginning with impregnation, gestation and birth. One may argue that a living entity cannot remember his presence in the mother’s womb nor his birth and early infancy. The Lord therefore states here that one can experience these phases of bodily existence by studying one’s own child. Similarly, although one may hope to live forever, by experiencing the death of one’s father, grandfather or great-grandfather, one has definite proof that the material body will die. A sober person, knowing the soul to be eternal, therefore gives up false identification with the temporary, unreliable body and takes shelter of the devotional service of the Lord. By this process one can escape the artificial imposition of birth and death. One who observes the birth of a tree from its seed and the ultimate death of the tree after maturity certainly remains a distinct observer separate from the tree. In the same way, the witness of the birth and death of the material body remains separate from it. An unintelligent man, failing to distinguish himself from material nature, thinks nature to be real. By contact with it he becomes completely bewildered and enters into the cycle of material existence. Made to wander because of his fruitive work, the conditioned soul, by contact with the mode of goodness, takes birth among the sages or demigods. By contact with the mode of passion he becomes a demon or human being, and by association with the mode of ignorance he takes birth as a ghost or in the animal kingdom.

O most charitable Uddhava, what is called birth is simply a person’s total identification with a new body. One accepts the new body just as one completely accepts the experience of a dream or a fantasy as reality. Prabhupada's Purport: Identification with one’s material body surpasses the mere affection and attachment one feels for the bodies of relatives or friends. The word sarva-bhavena here shows that one totally accepts the material body to be oneself, just as one completely accepts the experience of a dream as real. Mere imagination without practical action is called a daydream; the mental concoction that occurs in a sleeping state is called a dream. Our identification with our own body and our blind acceptance of bodily relationships as permanent constitute a prolonged form of dreaming or fantasy in which one imagines oneself to be separate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The term birth, therefore, does not refer to the generation of a new entity but to the blind acceptance by the spirit soul of a new material body. Just as a person experiencing a dream or daydream does not remember his previous dreams or daydreams, a person situated in his present body, although having existed prior to it, thinks that he has only recently come into being. Because the mind, which is the resting place of the senses, has created the identification with a new body, the threefold material variety of high, middle and low class appears as if present within the reality of the soul. Thus the self creates external and internal duality, just as a man might give birth to a bad son. Prabhupada's Purport: The wealth, beauty, strength, intelligence, fame and detachment of different bodies are considered to be excellent, normal or inferior according to the material situation. The spirit soul acquires a particular body and thus judges himself and others to be high, middle or low class according to their material situation. Actually, the eternal soul exists beyond material duality but falsely mistakes the material situation to be his own. The words asaj-jana-k§d yath¢ are significant. A father may by nature be peaceful, but because his bad son gets into trouble the father is forced to defend his son and consider his son’s enemies to be enemies of the entire family. Thus the bad son implicates the father in troublesome conflicts. Similarly, the spirit soul has no intrinsic problems, but by creating a false identification with the material body the soul becomes involved in the happiness and distress of the body. With this verse the Lord summarizes His discussion of the difference between the body and the soul. My dear Uddhava, material bodies are constantly undergoing creation and destruction by the force of time, whose swiftness is imperceptible. But because of the subtle nature of time, no one sees this. The different stages of transformation of all material bodies occur just like those of the flame of a candle, the current of a river, or the fruits of a tree. Prabhupada's Purport: The wavering flame of a candle sometimes waxes brightly and again becomes weak. Finally it vanishes altogether. The waves of a flowing river rise and fall, creating innumerable shapes and patterns. The fruits of a tree gradually take birth, grow, ripen, sweeten and eventually rot and die. Similarly, one can easily understand that one’s own body is undergoing constant transformation, and that the body is certainly subject to old age, disease and death. At different times of life the body exhibits degrees of sexual potency, physical strength, desire, wisdom and so on. As the body grows old, physical strength diminishes, but one’s knowledge may increase even as the body undergoes such transformation. Material birth and death occur within the realm of segmented time. The birth, creation or production of a material object immediately connects it with a segmented sequence of subtle time within the material world. Thus its destruction or death is inevitable. The irresistible force of time moves so subtly that only the most intelligent can perceive it. Just as the candle flame gradually diminishes, as the flowing currents move within the river or as fruits gradually ripen on a tree, the material body is steadily moving toward inevitable death. The temporary body should therefore never be confused with the eternal, unchanging spirit soul.

Lord Krsna partially describes here how the soul is cheated in this world: Sri Uddhava said: O supreme master, the intelligence of those dedicated to fruitive activities is certainly deviated from You. Please explain to me how such persons accept superior and inferior bodies by their materialistic activities and then give up such bodies. O Govinda, this topic is very difficult for foolish persons to understand. Being cheated by illusion in this world, they generally do not become aware of these facts. Lord Krsna said: The material mind of men is shaped by the reactions of fruitive work. Along with the five senses, it travels from one material body to another. The spirit soul, although different from this mind, follows it. The mind, bound to the reactions of fruitive work, always meditates on the objects of the senses, both those that are seen in this world and those that are heard about from Vedic authority. Consequently, the mind appears to come into being and to suffer annihilation along with its objects of perception, and thus its ability to distinguish past and future is lost. Prabhupada's Purport: One may ask how the subtle body, or mind, gives up its connection with one physical body and enters another. Such entering and leaving of physical bodies is called birth and death by conditioned souls. One utilizes his present senses to meditate on the visible objects of this world—beautiful women, palatial estates, and so on—and similarly one daydreams about the heavenly planets described in the Vedas. As death occurs, the mind is pulled away from the objects of its immediate experience and enters another body to experience a new set of sense objects. As the mind undergoes total reorientation there is the apparent loss of one’s previous mentality and creation of a new mind, though actually the same mind is experiencing, but in a different way. The conditioned soul is overwhelmed by the constant flow of material experience consisting of direct perception and abstract contemplation of the objects of this world. One thereby loses his transcendental memory of his relationship with God. As soon as one identifies with this world he forgets his eternal identity and surrenders to the false ego created by maya. When the living entity passes from the present body to the next body, which is created by his own karma, he becomes absorbed in the pleasurable and painful sensations of the new body and completely forgets the experience of the previous body. This total forgetfulness of one’s previous material identity, which comes about for one reason or another, is called death.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli has been called the most influential politicial philosopher of the Renaissance, and his philosophy of politics has influenced rulers down to modern times. He is typical of the Renaissance in that he turned from the subjects of the Church fathers––such as God, heaven, and salvation––to concentrate on man and nature. The Renaissance marked a decline in the Church’s power, and philosophy began a process of secularization. Machiavelli himself admitted thta his most famous work, The Prince, does not apply to a Utopian state composed of good citizens; rather, it is an unscrupulours philosophy that applies to corrupt citizens. The Prince is a guidebood for a tyrant, and it contains the advice he chose to impart to the ruling Medici family. It is a justification for immoral actions. power is the ultimate goal, and in the quest for power, the end justifies the means. Success in attaining power makes one the object of obedience and respect. Failure is the only sin. Srila Prabhupada: So, this is politics, the ocupation of ksatriyas. In Bhagavad-gita, the qualities of a køatriya are given: “Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the køatriyas.” (Bg. 18.43) Of course, in modern politics, the king or president does not come onto the battlefield to exhibit his courage. He simply appears when there is a battle of words, but when there is an actual battle, he remains in a secluded place and let the citizens fight. And he institutes a draft board to assure that they will. According to the Vedic system, however, when there is a fight, the king or president must be present on the battlefield and should lead the fight himself so that his men will be encouraged. This is called yuddhe capy apalayanam. The leader of a nation should fight with all his ability and be determined either to gain victory in the battle, or lay down his life. Bhagavad-gita itself is a guidebook for ksatriyas and was originally spoken to the sun-god millins of years ago. Sometimes, people try to interpret Bhagavad-gita as a philosophy of nonviolence, but in politics there must be violence, because the king must emergy victorious. It is stated int he Vedas that if the king is victorious, he will be respected. Strength must be there. Apart from this, the chief of state must also be charitable, and formerly all the great kings performed big yajnas, sacrifices. “All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajæa [sacrifice], and yajæa is born of prescribed duties.” (Bg. 3.14) When sufficient sacrifices are performed by the royal head of government, rainfull results. Power in itself is not sufficient. One must be powerful enough to fully satisfy the citizens by supplying them sufficient grans so that men and animals can eat and be satisfied. This is an ability that the politician or prince should have. He should be not only powerful but charitable as well. Taxes exacted from the citizens should be properly utilized in performing sacrifices. Of course, it is not possible to perform yajnas today as previously. Formerly, they used to sacrifice tons of ghee and grain in the fire, but today that is impractical. The best yajna for today is sankirtana-yajna (chanting God's holy names) propagated by the Krsna consciousness movement. The heads of state should encourage this. Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli felt that the prince must at least exhibit five baic virtues, whether he has them or not. These are mercy, faith, integrity, humanity, and relgion. He writes: “It is not necessary for a prince to have all the above mentioned qualities, but it is very necessary to seem to have them. I would even be so bold as to say that to possess them and always practice them is dangerous, but to appear to possess them is useful. Thus it is well to seem merciful, faithful, humane, sincere, relgious, and also to be so; but you must have your mind so disposed that, when it is needful to be otherwise, you can change to the opposite qualitites.” Srila Prabhupada: Well, Machiavelli may think like that, but unless a prince or king possesses all these qualities, he is unworthy. If he is unworthy, he cannot remain a prince because he is situated artificially. Because the kings lacked the proper qualities, monarchy is finished today, and democracy has become prominent. In Indian history, however, there were kings like Maharaja Pariksit, who actually possessed all good qualities. When Maharaja Pariksit went on a tour of his kingdom and saw a black man attempting to kill a cow, the Maharaja immediately drew his sword and said, “Who is this person trying to kill a cow in my kingdom? he must be punished.” A king must exhibit such determination to give protection to all the inhabitants of his kingdom. At the present moment, governments are not offering protection for animals. They are killing cows, although cows are supplying milk from which we can make wonderful preparations. This is Kali-yuga, and the government does not exhibit good sense in any field. Since the government is unworthy of governing, there is chaos throughout the world. According to Vedic civilization, the king is worshipped as God in human form and is therefore called naradeva. If the good qualities are lacking in a king, he canno longer be considered Naradeva, and he cannot rule for very long, because his rule is artificial. Therefore in Kali-yuga, the royal order is finished.

Syamasundara dasa: Then what would you say is the purpose of the state, of all these social orders, and the state government? Srila Prabhupada: The ultimate purpose is to make everyone K§øëa conscious. that is the perfection of life. The entire social structure should be molded with this aim in view. Of course, this is not possible for everyone. all students in a university do not receive the Ph.D. degree, but the idea of perfection is to pass the Ph.D. examination. the professors of the university should be maintained, although there are not many high caliber students to pass their classes.. Similarly, an institution like this Krsna Consciousness Society should be maintained to make at least a small percentage of the piopulation Krsna conscious. Syamasundara dasa: So the goal of government should be to enable everyone to become Krsna conscious? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness is the highest goal. Everyone should help and take advantage of this. Regardless of our social position, we can come to the temple and worship God. The instructions are for everyone, and prasadam is distributed to everyone; therefore there is no difficulty. Everyone can contribute to this Krsna consciousness movement. The brahmanas can contribute their intelligence, the køatriyas their charity, the vaisyas grains, milk, fruits, and flowers, and the sudras bodily service. by such joint cooperation, everyone attains the same goal––the highest perfection.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato believed that the state should train its citizens to become virtuous. According to his system of education, the first three years of life were spent playing and training the body. From age three to six, the children were taught religious stories. From seven to ten, they were taught gumnastics; from then to thirteen, reading and writing; from fourten to sixteen, poetry and music; from sixteen to eitghteen, mathematics; and from eighteen to twenty, military drill. From that time on, those who were scientific and philosophical remained in school until they were thirty-five. If they were warriors, they engaged in military exercises. Srila Prabhupada: Was this educational program for all men, or were there different types of education for different men? Syamasundara dasa: No, this applied to all. Srila Prabhupada: Oh, this is not desirable. If a boy is intelligent and inclined to philosophy and and theology, why should he be made to take military training? Syamasundara dasa: Well, according to Plato’s system, everyone took two years of military drill. Srila Prabhupada: But why waste two years? We cannot even waste two days. Syamasundara dasa: This type of education was designed in order to determine a person’s category. It is not that one belongs to a particular class according to qualifications. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we also say that, but that tendency or disposition is to be ascertained by the spiritual master, by the teacher who trains the boy. The teacher should be able to see whether a boy is fit for military training, for administration, or for philosophy. It is not that everyone should take the same training. One should be trained fully according to his particular tendency. If a boy is by nature inclined to philosophical study, why should he waste his time in the military? And if he is by nature inclined to military training, why should he waste his time with other studies? Arjuna belonged to a køatriya family, and this family was trained in the military. The Pandavas were never trained as philosophers. Dronacarya was their master and teacher, and although he was a brahmana, he taught them the military science, not brahma-vidya. Brahma-vidya is theology, philosophy. It is not that everyone should be trained in everything; that is a waste of time. If a student is inclined toward production, business, or agriculture, he shold be trained in those fields. If he is philosophical, he should be trained as a philosopher. If he is militaristic, he should be trained as a warrior. and if he is simply dull, he should remain a sudra, a laborer. These four classes are selected by their sumptoms and qualifications. Narada Muni also say that one should be selected according to qualifications. Even if one is born in a brahmana family, he should be considered a sudra if his qualifications are such. And if one is born in a çüdra family, he should be considered a brahmana if his symptoms are brahminical. It is not that everyone should be regarded in the same way. the spiritual master should be expert enough to recognize the tendencies of the students, and the student should immediately be trained in that line. This will bring about perfection. Syamasundara dasa: According to Plato’s system, this tendency won’t emerge unless one practices everything. Srila Prabhupada: No, that is wrong because the soul is continuous; therefore the soul retains some tendencies from his previous birth. According to Vedic culture, immediately after a boy’s birth, astological calculations were made. Astrology can help if there is a first-class atrologer who can tell what line a boy is coming from and how he should be trained. Of course, logical and physical symptoms are considered. If a boy does not fulfill the role assigned, he can be transferred to another class. Generally, it is ascertained from birth whether a child has a particular tendency, but this tendency may change accdording to circumstance. Someone may have brahminical training in a previous birth, and the symptoms may be exhibited, but he should not think that because he has taken birth in a brahmana family that he is automatically a brahmana. It is not a questin of birth but of qualification.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s system was somewhat democratic in that he felt that everyone should be given a chance to occupy the different posts. Srila Prabhupada: You can also say that we are democratic because we are giving even the lowest chandala a chance to become a brahmana by becoming Krsna conscious. As soon as one becomes Krsna conscious, he can be elevated to the highest position, even though he may be born in a family of chandalas. “O my Lord, a person who is chanting your holy name, although born of a low family like that of a chandala [dog eater], is situated on the highest platform of self-realization. Such a person must have performed all kinds of penances and sacrifices according to Vedic rituals and studied the Vedic literatures many, many times after taking his bath in all the holy places of pilgrimage. Such a person is considered to be the best of the Aryan family” (Bhag. 3.33.7) Also in Bhagavad-gita, it is stated: “O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiçyas [merchants] and sudras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.” (Bg. 9.32) Krsna says that everyone can go back home, back to Godhead. Samo ’ham sarva-bhutesu. “I am equal to everyone. Everyone can come to Me.” (Bg. 9.29) There is no hindrance.

Hayagriva dasa: In the Republic, Plato states that the best form of government is an enlightened monarchy. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we agree. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. “This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way.” (Bg. 4.2) A rajarsi is a saintly king who is an ideal ruler. We offer respect to Maharaja Yudhiøöhira, Maharaja Pariksit, and Lord Ramacandra because they set examples as ideal kings. Hayagriva dasa: Plato maintained that when a monarchy degenerates, it becomes a tyranny. When an aristocratic rule deteriorates, it becomes an oligarchy, a governmnet ruled by corrupt men. He considered democracy to be one of the worst forms of government because it deteriorates, it degenerates to mob rule. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is now the case. Instead of one saintly king, there are many thousands of so-called kings who are looting the people’s hard-earned money by income tax and other means. In the Vedic system, however, there was a way to keep the monarchy from degernerating into tyranny. The monarch was guided by a counsel of learned men, brahmanas, great saintly persons. Even Maharaja Yudhisthira and Lord Ramacandra were guided by brahmanas. It was the duty of the monaarch to act according to the decisions of the learned scholars, brahmanas, and sadhus, saintly persons. When Vena Maharaja was not ruling properly, the brahmanas came and advised him to act otherwise. When he refused, they cursed him, and he died. The great Prthu Maharaja was his son. A great sage is required to occupy the role of a monarch. Then everything is perfect in government. The present democratic systems are ludicrous because they are composed of rascals who simply bribe one another. When they attain their post, they plunder and take bribes. If the head of the state can understand Bhagavad-gita, his government will be automatically perfect. Formerly, Bhagavad-gita was explained to the monarchs for that reason. Imam rajarsayo viduh (Bg. 4.2).