ethos

Hayagriva dasa: In Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes: “Moral excellence is concerned with pleasure and pain; it is pleasure that makes us perform base action, and pain that prevents us from acting nobly. For that reason, as Plato says, men must be brought up from childhood to feel pleasure and pain at the proper things. This is proper education.” How does this correspond to the Vedic view of education? Srila Prabhupada: According to the Vedic view, there is no pleasure in this material world. We may make all kinds of arrangements for pleasure, but we may suddenly have to die. So where is the pleasure? If we make arrangements for pleasure and then do not enjoy it, we are dissapointed. We are constantly trying to attain pleasure by inventing so many contrivances, but because we are controlled by some superior force, we may at any moment be kicked out of our house of pleasure. The conclusion is that there is no pleasure in this material world. Pleasure here is an illusion, mirage. In a derset, you may hallucinate water, but ultimately you will die of thirst.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle conceives of God as the greatest good, as pure thought. When we act, we should always contemplate the good. In this way, we can lead a godly life. Srila Prabhupada: You cannot contemplate the good unless you are guided by the good. Arjuna, for instance, was guided by the Supreme Good; therefore despite his activity, which was fighting, he performed the greatest good.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the process of bhakti. Unless one is a devotee, how can he constantly think of God? Rüpa Gosvami gives the example of a woman who has a parmour other than her husband. She performs her household chores very nicely, but she is always thinking, “When will my lover come at night?” If it is possible to think of this all the time materially, why not spiritually? It is a question of practice. Despite engaging in so many different types of work, you can think of God incessantly. Now, Aristotle may have some conception of God, but he has no clear idea of Krsna’s personality. We can think specifically and concretely of God because we receive information from Vedic literature that God is a person and appears a certain way. In Bhagavad-gita, it is stated that impersonalists experience a great deal of trouble because they have no clear idea of God. “For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.” (Bg. 12.5) If you have no conception of God’s form, your attempt to realize God will be very difficult.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle’s God is the unmoved mover. He is perfect, and He wants nothing. He does not have to actualize Himself because He is completely actualized. Srila Prabhupada: We also agree that God is all perfect. Parasara Muni defines God as the totality of wisdom, strength, wealth, fame, beauty, and renunciation. All these qualities are possessed by Krsna in full, and when Krsna was present, anyone could see that He was perfect. One who is perfect can rule others, and we accept the leadership of a person according to his degree of perfection. If one is not somewhat wise, beautiful, wealthy, and so forth, why should we accept him a a leader? One who is supremely perfect in all these qualities is the supreme leader. That is natural. Since Krsna is supremely perfect, we should accept Him as our leader. Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees God as pure thought (nous). God’s life is the life of the mind, but God does not need to do anything to further perfect Himself. Srila Prabhupada: When he says that God is mind, what does he mean? Does he have some conception of God’s personality? God must be a person. Otherwise, how could he think? Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees God as constantly engaged in self-contemplation. Srila Prabhupada: Does this mean that when one is perfect, he engages in no activity? Does God simply sit down and meditate? If so, what is the difference between a stone and God? A stone sits; it has no activity. How is inactivity perfection? Krsna never meditates, yet when He speaks, He delivers perfect knowledge. Krsna enacts various pastimes: He fights with demons, protects His devotees, dances with the gopis, and delivers words of enlightenment. There is no question of God sitting down like a stone and engaging in self-meditation. Syamasundara dasa: But is it not possible to meditate while acting? Srila Prabhupada: Certainly, but God doesn’t have to meditate. Why should he meditate? He is perfect. Meditation means coming from the imperfect stage to the perfect stage. Since God is perfect to begin with, what business does He have meditating? Everything is actualized by His will alone. Syamasundara dasa: Doesn’t He contemplate His own activities? Srila Prabhupada: Why should He if He is perfect? Aristotle recommends that a man should meditate to become perfect. This meditation presupposes imperfection. Contemplation is recommended for living entities, but we should understand that whatever God desires or wills immediately comes into being. This information is given in the Vedas. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. God’s multi-energies are so powerful that everything is immediately actualized as soon as He desires.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle also believed that everything is designed by God for the attainment of some particular objective. This indicates a grand scheme. Srila Prabhupada: This is the process of evolution. The living entity passes from one species to another, from trees to vegetables, to insects, to fish, birds, beasts, and humans. In the human form, evolution is fully manifest. It is like a flower unfolding from a bud. When the living entity attains the human form, his proper duty is to understand his lost relationship with God. If he misses this opportunity, he may regress. Aristotle is correct therefore in saying that everything has a purpose. The whole creative process aims at bringing the living entity back to Godhead. Syamasundara dasa: Does everything eventually come to that point? Srila Prabhupada: As a human being, you can properly utilize your consciousness, or you can misuse it. That is up to you. Krsna gives Arjuna instuctions and then tells him that the decision is up to him. Under the orders of Krsna, nature has brought you through so many species. Now, as a human, you have a choice whether to return to god or again undergo the cycle of birth and death. If you are fortunate, you make the proper choice according to the instructions of the spiritual master and Krsna. Then your life is successful. Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees a hierarchy of forms extending from minerals, vegetables, animals, to human beings, and ultimately God, who is pure form and pure act. God is devoid of all potentiality, or materiality. Srila Prabhupada: There is no guarantee that we will move upwards in that hierarchy. It is a fact that the individual soul transmigrates from one form to another, but how can you say that the next form you attain will be closer to perfection? If you have a human form in this life, there is no guarantee that you will get a higher form in the next. You accept another form just as you accept another dress. That dress may be valuable, or of no value whatesoever. I get a dress according to the price I pay, and I accept a form according to my work. Syamasundara dasa: But in order to attain perfection, we must move toward God. This is the goal for which the living entity is initially created. Srila Prabhupada: This is very expertly explained in Vedic literature as karma, akarma, and vikarma. You bring about your own form. You enjoy or suffer according to your work. In any case, a material form is never perfect because it undergoes six changes. It is born, grows, it stays for a while, it leaves some by-products, dwindles, and then vanishes. When your form vanishes, you have to take on another form, which also undergoes the same processes. When a form vanishes, it decomposes, and various elements return to nature. Water returns to water, earth to earth, air returns to air, and so forth.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle more or less utilizes the process of sankhya-yoga by analyzing objects and placing them into general categories. These categories become more and more general until one reaches the final cause, or ultimate category. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is the process of neti-neti, by which one eventually hopes to attain Brahman by understanding what Brahman is not. According to this process, one goes through the universe saying neti-neti, “This is not Brahman, that is not Brahman. This is not truth, that is not truth.” This is the same inductive process. For instance, if you want to determine whether or not man is mortal, you may search from man to man and conclude whether each man is mortal or not. In this way, you can go on indefinitely seeing that all men are dying. Then why not accept the fact that man is mortal? In your attempt to find an immortal man, you are bound to be frustrated. you will only find mortality. This is the result of the neti-neti process. Syamasundara dasa: The idea is that through this process, we can come to the final cause, the final category. Srila Prabhupada: The final category is that we are part and parcel of God. That’s all.

Syamasundara dasa: In man’s search for truth, the role of logic is paramount. According to Aristotle’s principle of contradiction, a proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time. Srila Prabhupada: That is on the relative platform. At one time we may accept something to be true, and at another time we may reject it as untrue. On the mental platform we cannot know what is true and what is not. Therefore we have to learn the truth from the Supreme Truth. Truth is truth. It is not subject to speculation. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that after many lives of speculation, the man of wisdom surrenders unto the Supreme Absolute Truth. In the beginning, a man may employ deductive logic, but in the end, he surrenders. he comes to the conclusion: Vasudevah sarvam iti (Bg. 7.19). “God is everything; therefore I must surrender.” This is the perfection and ultimate end of the menatal processes of speculation. That is, speculation is abandoned.

Hayagriva dasa: In Politics, Aristotle wrote: “The beauty of the body is seen, but the beauty of the soul is not seen.” Is this true? Srila Prabhupada: The beauty of the soul is real, and the beauty of the body is superficial. In the material world, we see many ugly and many beautiful bodies, but here ugliness and beauty are artificial. The beauty of the soul, however, is real, not artificial. Unless we see the beauty of the Supersoul, Krsna, we have no ida what actual beauty is. Therefore the devotees want to see the beauty of Krsna, not the artificial beauty of this material world. Hayagriva dasa: Is there no correspondence between a beautiful body and a beautiful soul? Aren’t they linked by karma? Srila Prabhupada: There is some correspondence because we say that this material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual. Originally, the soul is beautiful, but here that beauty is covered. We can only have a glimpse of the real beauty from the material covering, but we have to wait in order to se the actual beauty of the soul. That beauty is the real form of the body. Hayagriva dasa: It is said that Socrates was physically ugly but that he had a very beautiful soul, and consequently people were attracted to him. Srila Prabhupada: In India, it is said that the quail is black and ugly like a crow, but when it sings, its song is so beautiful tha people are attracted. The beauty of the body is secondary, and the beauty of the soul is primary. A beautiful man who is a fool is beautiful only as long as he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, we can understand his actual position. Essentially, external beauty is useless. If an ugly man speaks well, he attracts many people, and if a beautiful man speaks nonsense, no one cares for him. Real attraction is one thing, and artificial attraction is another.

Syamasundara dasa: Because he equates the soul’s immortality with reason, Aristotle believes that it is only the rational soul, the human soul, that is immortal. Animals also have souls, but he saw them limited to sense, desire, and animation. Srila Prabhupada: Animals are also rational. If a dog enters my room, and I say, “Out!” the dog immediately understands and goes away. How can we say that there is no ratinality at work? If I place my finger before an ant, that ant will turn away immediately.. If you give a cow meat, the cow will not touch it. the cow understands that its food consists of grasses and grains. Animals have rationality, but one aspect of ratinality is lacking: an animal cannot think of God. This is the main difference between animals and men. A man’s rationality is so developed that he can think of God, whereas an animal cannot. But we should not think that the souls of animals are not immortal. This theory has given the Christians a basis for killing animals, but they cannot prove that an animal’s soul is irrational or mortal. A man eats, sleeps, defends, and mates, and an animal does the same. So what is the difference? Syamasundara dasa: Perhaps the difference is one of mental activity. A man has the capacity to think in a more complicated way. Srila Prabhupada: But mental activity means accepting and rejecting. Animals also accept and reject; therefore they have mental activity. Syamasundara dasa: But what of developed intelligence? Srila Prabhupada: Of course, man has a more highly developed intelligence, but we should not think that an animal has no intelligence at all. The father has more intelligence than his small child, but this is because the child has not grown to attain that standard. Similarly, an animal is making progress up the evolutionary scale. It has intelligence, but it is not highly developed. Plants, animals, and men possess consciousness. It has been proven by Doctor Jagadish Candra Bose that a tree is conscious of your cutting it. However, the tree does not feel it very much. If you hit an animal, the animal feels it more, and if you hit a man, a man feels it even more than an animal. It is a question of developed consciousness. That development has to do with the body. As soon as you receive the body of a tree, your consciousness is plugged up. It is not so active. When you attain the human form, consciousness is more developed, and that developed consciousness should be further developed so that you can come to Krsna consciousness, which is the highest perfection of the living entity.

Syamasundara dasa: For Aristotle, the goal of action is to realize our potential and attain the greatest happiness or pleasure. Since God created man for self-realization, it is realization that will bring him satisfaction. Srila Prabhupada: This means that in the beginning God created man imperfect. Otherwise, why is there need for self-realization? Syamasundara dasa: A piece of wood has the potential to become fire. It is not fire until it is kindled. Man is similar. Srila Prabhupada: We say that the living entity is part and parcel of God, and if God is all good, the living entity is also all good. A part of gold cannot be iron; it also must be gold. However, the part is not equal to the whole. A gold earring is also gold, but it is not as great as the gold mine. Nevertheless, the quality of the gold earing and the quality of gold in the gold mine are the same. If God is perfect, the living entity must also be perfect in quality. If God has the quality of goodness, the living entity must ahve it also. Why should he be imperfect? That would indicate that God is unjust. Why should God create something that has to come to the perfectional point by realization? Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle would say that the activities of the mind are pure and perfect, but that those of the body and matter are impure and imperfect. Therefore one must realize himself through the activities of the mind alone. Srila Prabhupada: No, the mind is never perfect. The mind’s business is to accept this and reject that, and therefore it is very flickering. The mind is subtler than the body, but the mind is not the soul, nor is the mind perfect. Above the mind there is intelligence, and above the intelligence there is the soul. That soul is perfect in quality, and it has all the qualities of God in minute quantity. Syamasundara dasa: By mind, Aristotle means the rational faculty of intelligence. Srila Prabhupada: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind, and intelligence is of the soul. Therefore the whole background is the soul. Syamasundara dasa: The mind must act or contemplate in accordance with logic. Logic is defined as the method of drawing correct inferences. Srila Prabhupada: The mind may logically accept something and again logically reject it. Where, then, is perfect logic? Syamasundara dasa: Perfect logic is simply a method for finding the truth. Srila Prabhupada: But the mind is constantly accepting and rejecting. How can it ascertain the truth according to logic? If our authority is the mind, does this mean tha the mind of everyone is an authority? The mind may constantly search, but it will never be successful because the truth is beyond its reach. A follower of the Vedas does not accept this speculative method as a path to truth or perfection. Hayagriva dasa: For both Plato and Aristitle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or religious experiences. Srila Prabhupada: We are all limited, and God is unlimited; therefore we cannot understand God by our limited sensory powers. Consequently, God must be known by revelation. “Material sense cannot appreciate Krsna’s holy name, form qualities, and pastimes. When a conditioned soul is awakened to Krsna consciousness and renders service by using his tongue to chant the Lord’s holy name and taste the remnants of the Lord’s food, the tongue is purified, and one gradually comes to understand who Krsna really is.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234) It is not possible to know God by mental speculation. When we engage in His service he reveals Himself. Sri Krsna says: “I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.” (Bg. 7.25) It is a fact that unless God reveals Himself, he is not known. Therefore he appears, and great authorities like Byasadeva, Narada, Sukadeva Gosvami, Ramanujacarya, Madvacarya, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu––great scholars and transcendentalists––accept Him as He reveals Himself. Arjuna saw God face to face, and he accepted Him. When we are freed by our service, God reveals Himself. Hayagriva dasa: Well, Aristotle emphasizes man’s use of reason, and he sees man’s happiness depending on acting in a rational way, which is the way of virtue and intellectual insight. there is a suggestion of sense control, but no bhakti. Is it possible to atain happiness simply by controlling the senses with the mind? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and that is the process of becoming a human being. Animals are ignorant of this process, and they act only for their sense gratification. Their only business is eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. Through proper guidance, a human being can engage in contemplation, but he should be guided by authorities, otherwise he may contemplate with his limited senses for many millions of years and not be able to understand God. Hayagriva dasa: But for happiness, or ananda, isn’t bhakti essential? Srila Prabhupada: God is full ananda, full bliss. Sac-cid-ananda. He is eternal and in full knowledge of everything. Unless we come in contact with God, there is no question of ananda. Raso vai saù. From the Vedic literatures, we understand that God is the unlimited reservoir of all pleasure; consequently, when we come in contact with God, we will taste that pleasure. Material pleasure is only a perverted reflection of the real pleasure. Syamasundara dasa: Rather than personal guidance, Aristotle emphasized rational logic. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but when you are guided, you have to sacrifice your logic to accept the superior logic of your guide. Syamasundara dasa: He felt that the mind can be its own guide. Srila Prabhupada: As I said, the mind will carry you this way and that. In Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna says that the mind is more difficult to control than the wind. If a horse is not controlled, if it is allowed to run at will, it will cause some disaster. When the horse is guided, it can take you to your destination. We should therefore know how to control the mind by the intelligence. Syamasundara dasa: But because the mind is an aspect of God, we find our perfection or happiness in the contemplation of God. Srila Prabhupada: Everything is an aspect of God. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna points out that He has eight separated energies. So why stress the mind? Because we have lost God’s association, we are all searching after Him. We are struggling, but we do not know why. This is due to ignorance. If, by good fortune, we chance to meet a bona fide guru, the guru can inform us, “You are searching after God. This is the way. You only have to follow.” It is then that we can become happy. Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle believed that the truth is inherent or innate within everything. For him, truth is the agreement of knowledge with reality. It corresponds with things in the objective world. Srila Prabhupada: If truth is within everything, then it must be drawn out. However, it is not drawn out by matter but by spirit. This means that the help of a superior energy is necessary. According to Bhagavad-gita, the living entity is the superior energy, and matter is the inferior. It is the inferior energy that must be controlled by the superior. Both God and the living entities are eternal, but God is the Supreme Eternal. Living entities are nitya-krsna-dasa, eternal servants of God. When they tend to disobey God, they suffer. If we want to use our logic, we can understand that through our independent action, we have failed. Therefore we must take the advice of superior intelligence. That advice is given in Bhagavad-gita. It is not that we can attain the truth through our own independent speculatin. If we want to know who our fatehr is, we may speculate forever, but it is much simpler to ask our mother. Otherwise, we may go on searching and searching for millions of years and never know. What is the point in all this vain research? We should conclude that insofar as we are in the material, illusory condition, it is our duty to take help from God or His representative, who does not set forth anything that is not originally spoken by God. For instance, God says, “Surrender unto Me,” and God’s representative says, “Surrender to God.” If a rascal says, “I am God,” he should be kicked. The living entities are part and parcel of God, and a part can never become the whole. A real representative of God acknowledges himself as the servant of God, and he requests everyone to surrender unto God. for perfect knowledge, we have to take guidence either directly from God, as Arjuna did, or from God’s representative. Then we will be successful in ascertaining the truth.

From VNN archives: Why Do ISKCON Gurus Fall Down? Editorial (VNN) - by Madhudvisa dasa Vipramukya Swami has published an article on Chakra explaining that ISKCON gurus fall down because demons pose as their disciples and trick them into maya. He justifies this by quoting one of Hridyananda Maharaja's purports from his translation of Srimad Bhagavatam. However, although it may be true that neophyte devotees can be tricked by demons posing as their disciples, the hard fact is in the material world almost all of us are demons!! After all this is the prison-house and we come here to exercise our natural tendency to become the enjoyer, to lord it over the material energy. That is the demoniac mentality, and we have all been trained up expertly in this mentality, particularly in the West, but also in India these days. So, being a real "guru" is not as simple as ISKCON would have us believe. If one is tricked into maya by his demoniac disciples he was never a bona-fide guru in the first place. Of course some of the disciples may be demons, but a real guru knows this and engages them in Krishna's service in such a way that their demoniac mentality is killed and their original Krishna consciousness is reawakened. It's not that one becomes a "real guru" simply by being authorized to take disciples and receiving an "official ISKCON guru badge" from the GBC... A "real guru" is self-effulgant. He does not need any authorization. He is authorized by Krishna. It is not a cheep thing. A real guru has to be able to preach the philosophy of Krishna consciousness very expertly and authoritatively and live his life perfectly according to that. He has to have the ability to awaken the dormant spark of Krishna consciousness within the hearts of his disciples and the general public and he has to also fan that spark so it will become a blazing fire that will consume all the material, demoniac desires in the hearts of his disciples. Of course to do this his own heart has to be perfectly clean and free from material desires. Those of us who joined ISKCON before 1987 or who have read Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL books will remember the philosophy used to be that one approach a pure devotee spiritual master, render service to him and inquire submissively from him as such a great soul can give real knowledge as he has seen the truth... We can also remember the philosophy was "a bound man cannot free another bound man, first the rescuer has to be liberated." A drowning man cannot be saved by one who cannot swim. It is an act of insanity for a person who cannot swim to jump into the water to "save" a drowning man. He will simply drown and he will pull the other drowning man down with him in his effort to "save" the lost soul... Even if you joined ISKCON after 1987 if you care to take a quick look at Srila Prabhupada's [ORIGINAL] books you will find he very clearly describes the Spiritual Master as a pure devotee in hundreds of places. So the REAL REASON ISKCON gurus fall down is because they are part of a system that elevates ordinary devotees to the position of "guru" and then forces all the new devotees to give up their connection with Srila Prabhupada, to stop chanting Srila Prabhupada's pranams, to stop offering bhoga to Srila Prabhupada and INSTEAD offer it to one of the "Bonafide Authorized ISKCON Gurus" who ISKCON cannot even guarantee are following the four regulative principles! Worse still, in many cases the GBC even knows that their "gurus" are not chanting their rounds, attending Mangal-Aroti and following the regulative principles, but still they allow them to go on with their "guru business." For most accepting a bogus ISKCON guru is the end of their spiritual life... Most of us are demons... Mostly we have rejected Krishna and, even though we call ourselves devotees, we are still very much attracted by Maya's allurements. Most of us need the mercy of a pure devotee to awaken the dormant spark of Krishna consciousness within our hearts and then to fan that spark and make it into a blazing fire to destroy all the material desires in our hearts. It requires a pure devotees guidance. If, at that crucial moment of our spiritual development, instead of getting shelter at the lotus feet of a pure devotee spiritual master who can deliver us Krishna, we get a bogus ISKCON guru interested in fame, followers, guru daksina and ISKCON politics, then instead of fanning the little spark of Krishna consciousness in our hearts he will practically extinguish it. Of course the material world is still attractive to many of us and it is an alluring proposition for many to be able to continue satisfying our material sense desires and at the same time be "devotees." So the ISKCON gurus have catered to this "market" and now we have an assortment of "Vegan Krishnas,Hard-Core Krishnas,Gay Krishnas,Feminist Krishnas,Hindu Krishnas," etc. But pure devotional service has been somehow lost... Where are the devotees who live to chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, dancing daily in ecstasy on the streets of the world's major cities and distributing Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL books to the fallen conditioned souls? Where are the devotees who are always immersed in the ever-expanding ocean of transcendental bliss that is the REAL Krishna consciousness movement? The man who cannot swim may feel some compassion for the drowning man, but without being an expert swimmer himself he cannot save the man, and if he tries they will BOTH end up at the bottom of the ocean. So ISKCON gurus fall down because, in most cases, they are not qualified to be gurus and even if they were the ISKCON system is structured in such a way that in any case they could do little to help their disciples as, in ISKCON, the "guru" has no authority over his disciples... The disciples are meant to be "disciplined" [and guided] by the guru, but in ISKCON that is not permitted by the GBC and temple presidents! [iSKCON gurus cannot change the service of their disciples, they cannot give any instruction to their disciples which is not approved of by the Temple President and GBC, etc.] So the ISKCON gurus are mostly not qualified as pure devotees at all and ISKCON now openly admits this and says their gurus don't have to be qualified anyhow... As long as the GBC approves it... Of course they can't justify this idea at all from Srila Prabhupada's teachings... Srila Prabhupada never talks about "unqualified gurus," if the "guru" is unqualified, he is not a guru!! The whole ISKCON guru system is therefore completely bogus. Of course, to support this bogus system all thoughtful devotees who question it have to be destroyed. They have to be bashed, banned from the temples, beaten and blasphemed. Personally, in my whole life no "karmi" has ever attacked me physically, however I have been bashed so many times by ISKCON "devotees" and banned from every ISKCON temple in the world just for repeating the words of Srila Prabhupada, my spiritual master... Vipramukya Swami dramatically illustrates this principle on his webpage with his animated cartoon depicting ISKCON members murdering all the direct followers of Srila Prabhupada by bashing them to death with a hammer with the subtitle "Smash the Ritviks." And it is 100% approved by the GBC!!! The GBC have no philosophical basis for the current ISKCON "guru system" and are therefore continually commissioning different groups of devotees to write new "guru tattva" papers in the hope that someone will come up with something logical that will enable them to paint Srila Prabhupada out of the picture as a "dead guru" and enable them to go with their "guru business." Of course it is not possible to write such a paper, as Srila Prabhupada is not dead, so ISKCON resort to violence and intimidation and try to discredit the very system Srila Prabhupada personally established and directly ordered all temples and GBC members to follow in his July 9th, 1977 letter. So Vipramukya Swami is trying to smash Srila Prabhupada by smashing the devotees trying to follow Srila Prabhupada's direct order... That is why ISKCON gurus fall down... Now ISKCON has the BBT spending most of it's time and Srila Prabhupada's money changing Srila Prabhupada's books and trying to prove in a court of law that Srila Prabhupada is not the author of his books, he was just a hired-hand! Jayadvaita [then dasa] and the other BBT staff imported Srila Prabhupada from India, fed him and clothed him, and enlisted him in helping them write the books! Therefore Srila Prabhupada never had the authority toestablish his BBT and the copyrighs belong to ISKCON not Prabhupada's BBT!! Also, the Bhaktivedanta Archives, instead of spending their time and energy in preserving Srila Prabhupada's lectures, etc. as they were originally spoken by Srila Prabhupada, are spending their time and energy editing and changing them and preserving their changed versions NOT THE ORIGINALS! So, as it is, ISKCON is an organization determined to minimizing theposition and authority of Srila Prabhupada and to changing, "correcting", and even "improving" the teachings of Srila Prabhupada in the books personally used by and approved by him. They are also determined to establish their books are just as good as Srila Prabhupada's books! We have already seen the BBT publish so many books by authors other than Srila Prabhupada and present them as being "non-different" from Srila Prabhupada's books. However there is a gulf of difference between a book written by a Maha-Bhagavata pure devotee and books written by neophyte devotees! Of course a devotee may be a great scholar and philosopher from the mundane point of view, but if he is not a pure devotee then reading his books will not help us at all to reawaken the Krishna consciousness within out hearts, rather it will cover it more and more. Reading such books is a great stumbling block on the path back home, back to Godhead yet ISKCON and the BBT promote them as being "as good as Prabhupada's books." If one sees a book-table at an ISKCON temple these days it is a bewildering site to be sure! Sometimes it is difficult to even find one book by Srila Prabhupada! They are selling so many books by so many "Vaisnavas" about so many subjects that they forget to sell Srila Prabhupada's books... They forget the value of associating with Srila Prabhupada personally by reading his books... They forget the value of Srila Prabhupada's personal association and imply that books written by any other devotee are just as good... As long as they are approved by the GBC of course. If one talks to a new bhakta these days and asks, "Have you read any of Srila Prabhupada's books?" They often say, "O yes, I have read Ray Cappo's book, and one book by Steven Rosen, and something about space-ships and aliens by Sadaputta... "But have you read any of Srila Prabhupada's books?..." If somehow a new devotee has been able to get hold of some of Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL books and has actually realized that, "Hey, there's really something special about this guy's books!" ISKCON are determined to get him to give up the natural relationship he has developed with Srila Prabhupada by reading his books, which is PERSONAL DIRECT association with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada is living in his books and his personal association, instruction, guidance and mercy is right there for all of us to take advantage of 24 hours a day seven days a week. There is no other guru who can be personally present in so many places with all his disciples and continually instruct and guide them all simultaneously and personally... We have all Srila Prabhupada's books to read, all his classes to listen to, all his morning works to hear, all his conversations to read, all his letters to read, we have at least 52 hours of CD's of Srila Prabhupada chanting Hare Krishna, singing Bhajans and explaining them, and of course there is at least 50 hours of video tape of Srila Prabhupada giving class, chanting, dancing, preaching, and all aspects of his life. And everything is available on the "Complete Works Of Srila Prabhupada" CD ROM, [however the ISKCON version of this has been rendered almost useless by mixing in dozens of books by other authors which are all supposedly "just as good as Srila Prabhupada's books". A classic case of mixing sand with the sweet-rice. Who can eat sweet-rice mixed with sand?] That's more than enough to keep one very busy for an entire lifetime and if we use our life in that way we will be sure to go back home, back to Godhead after leaving this body. Anyhow, instead of preaching the glories of Srila Prabhupada and his unique position to new devotees and allowing them to take shelter at his lotus feet the ISKCON "party line" is "Prabhupada is dead. You need a 'living guru' prabhu" and "You don't have to be a pure devotee to be a guru." THAT IS WHY ISKCON "GURUS" FALL DOWN... SB 3.4.32 P Vidura Approaches Maitreya The Lord is undoubtedly the source of all knowledge, and the messages dispatched through Uddhava to Nara-Narayana and other sages were also part of the Vedic knowledge, but they were more confidential and could be sent or understood only through such a pure devotee as Uddhava. Since such confidential knowledge was known only to the Lord and Uddhava, it is said that Uddhava was as good as the Lord Himself. Every living entity can, like Uddhava, also become a confidential messenger on the same level as the Lord, provided he becomes confidential himself by dint of loving devotional service. Such confidential knowledge is entrusted, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita only to pure devotees like Uddhava and Arjuna, and one has to learn the mystery through them, and not otherwise. One cannot understand Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam without the help of such confidential devotees of the Lord. According to Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, that confidential message must have concerned the mystery of His departure and the annihilation of His dynasty after the end of His appearance in the mundane world for one hundred years. Everyone must have been very anxious to know about the mystery of the annihilation of the Yadu dynasty, and that message must have been explained by the Lord to Uddhava and dispatched to Badarikasrama for the information of Nara-Narayana and other pure devotees of the Lord. SB 3.7.38 P Further Inquires by Vidura The living entities are constitutionally servitors of the Lord, who can accept all kinds of service from everyone. It is clearly declared (Bg.5.29) that the Lord is the supreme enjoyer of the benefits of all sacrifices and penances, the proprietor of all that is manifested and the friend of all living entities. That is His real identity. Therefore, whenthe living entity accepts this supreme proprietorship of the Lord and acts in that attitude, he resumes his real identity. In order to elevate the living entity to this standard of knowledge, there is the necessity of spiritual association. The bona fide spiritual master desires that his disciples know the process of rendering transcendental service to the Lord, and the disciples also know that they have to learn about the eternal relationship between God and the living entity from a self-realized soul. To disseminate transcendental knowledge one must retire from mundane activities on the strength of enlightenment in knowledge in terms of Vedic wisdom. That is the sum and substance of all the questions in this verse. SB 4.26.20 P King Puranjana Goes to the Forest to Hunt, and His Queen Becomes Angry One cannot come to the precincts of Krsna consciousness unless he touches the dust of the lotus feet of a person who has become a mahatma, a great devotee. This is the beginning of the surrendering process. Lord Krsna wants everyone to surrender unto Him, and this surrendering process begins when one touches the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master. By sincerely rendering service to a bona fide spiritual master, one begins his spiritual life in Krsna consciousness. Touching the lotus feet of a spiritual master means giving up one's false prestige and unnecessarily puffed-up position in the material world. Those who remain in the darkness of material existence due to their falsely prestigious positions--so-called scientists and philosophers--are actually atheists. They do not know the ultimate cause of everything. Although bewildered, they are not ready to surrender themselves to the lotus feet of a person who knows things in their proper perspective. In other words, one cannot arouse Krsna consciousness simply by his own mental speculation. One must surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Only this process will help one. SB 4.29.51 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi "Even if a brahmana is very learned in Vedic scriptures and knows the six occupational duties of a brahmana, he cannot become a guru, or spiritual master, unless he is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. However, if one is born in a family of dog-eaters but is a pure devotee of the Lord, he can become a spiritual master." The conclusion is that one cannot become a spiritual master unless he is a pure devotee ofthe Lord. One who is a spiritual master in accordance with the above descriptions of devotional service is to be understood as the Supreme Personality of Godhead personally present. According to the words mentioned here (gurur harih), consulting a bona fide spiritual master means consulting the Supreme Personality of Godhead personally. One should therefore take shelter of such a bona fide spiritual master. Success in life means accepting a spiritual master who knows Krsna as the only supreme beloved personality. One should worship such a confidential devotee of the Lord. SB 5.14.41 P The Material World as the Great Forest of Enjoyment Even if one wanders for many millions of years, from the time of creation until the time of annihilation, one cannot get free from the path of material existence unless one receives shelter at the lotus feet of a pure devotee. As a monkey takes shelter of the branch of a banyan tree and thinks he is enjoying, the conditioned soul, not knowing the real interest of his life, takes shelter of the path of karma-kanda, fruitive activities. Sometimes he is elevated to the heavenly planets by such activities, and sometimes he again descends to earth. This is described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as brahmanda bhramite. However, if by Krsna's grace one is fortunate enough to come under the shelter of the guru, by the mercy of Krsna he receives lessons on how to execute devotional service to the Supreme Lord. In this way he receives a clue of how to get out of his continuous struggle up and down within the material world. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that one should approach a spiritual master. The Vedas declare: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12). Similarly in Bhagavad-gita (4.34) the Supreme Personality of Godhead advises: SB 5.14.41 P The Material World as the Great Forest of Enjoyment "Any person who seriously desires to achieve real happiness must seek out a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of his spiritual master is that he must have realized the conclusion of the scriptures by deliberation and be able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understood as bona fide spiritual masters." Similarly, Visvanatha Cakravarti, a great Vaisnava, also advises, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah:"By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the mercy of Krsna." This is the same advice given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija). This is essential. One must come to Krsna consciousness, and therefore one must take shelter of a pure devotee. Thus one can become free from the clutches of matter. SB 5.15.4 P The Glories of the Descendants of King Priyavrata The word anusasmara is very significant. God consciousness is not imaginary or concocted. The devotee who is pure and advanced realizes God as He is. Maharaja Pratiha did so, and due to his direct realization of Lord Visnu, he propagated self-realization and became a preacher. A real preacher cannot be bogus; he must first of all realize Lord Visnu as He is. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (4.34), upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas the Supreme personality of Godhead. Such a person can become a guru and propound Vaisnava philosophy all over the world. The paragon of bona fide preachers and guru is King Pratiha. SB 7.7.29 P What Prahlada Learned in the Womb "Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23) One must accept the pure devotee, the representative of God, as one's guru and then offer him all the respects one would offer the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the secret of success. For one who adopts this method, the perfect process is revealed. In this verse, the words yair anjasa ratih indicate that by offering service and surrendering to the spiritual master, one is elevated to devotional service, and by performing devotional service one gradually becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because of this attachment to the Lord, one can understand the Lord. In other words, one can understand what the Lord's position is, what our position is and what our relationship is. All this can be understood very easily by the simple method of bhakti-yoga. As soon as one is situated on the platform of bhakti-yoga, the root cause of one's suffering and material bondage is destroyed. This is clearly explained in the next verse, which gives the secret of success. SB 10.2.37 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb We should strictly follow this injunction and never try to hear from Mayavadis, impersonalists, voidists, politicians or so-called scholars. Strictly avoiding such inauspicious association, we should simply hear from pure devotees. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore recommends, sri-guru-padasrayah: one must seek shelter at the lotus feet of a pure devotee who can be one's guru. Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises that a guru is one who strictly follows the instructions of Bhagavad-gita: yare dekha,tare kaha, 'krsna'--upadesa (Cc. Madhya 7.128). A juggler, a magician or one who speaks nonsense as an academic career is not a guru. Rather, a guru is one who presents Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's instructions, as it is. Sravana is very important; one must hear from the Vaisnava sadhu, guru and sastra. Adi 8.17 The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru These slokas are to be discussed. Their purport is that one cannot obtain krsna-bhakti, or the devotional service of the Lord, by official execution of the Vedic rituals. One has to approach a pure devotee. Narottama dasa Thakura sings, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: "Who has been elevated without rendering service to a pure Vaisnava?" It is the statement of Prahlada Maharaja that unless one is able to accept the dust from the lotus feet of a pure Vaisnava there is no possibility of achieving the platform of devotional service. That is the secret. The above-mentioned tantra-vacana, quoted from the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.1.36), is our perfect guidance in this connection. NoI 5 In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and shouldnot try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. TYS 7 How Bhakti-yoga Works The teacher must be a representative of Krsna, a devotee, and the student must be like Arjuna. Then this Krsna consciousness study is perfect. Otherwise it is a waste of time. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated: "If anyone wants to understand the science of Krsna, he should associate with pure devotees. When discussions take place among pure devotees, the potency of spiritual language is revealed." Scholarly discussion of the Gita is futile. In the Upanisads it is stated: "To one who has firm faith in God, and similar faith in God's representative, all the import of Vedic language will be revealed." We must have the qualification of being a devotee. Become dear to God. My spiritual master used to say, "Don't try to see God. Act in such a way that God will see you." We have to qualify ourselves. By your qualification God Himself will come and see you. TYS 9 The Real Peace Formula If by chance during this training he meets a teacher who is a saintly person and a pure devotee of the Lord, then by such a contact he becomes pure. Therefore, Lord Caitanya said that the fortunate person who has had some spiritual asset in his past dealings will seek the association of a pure devotee. The seed of Krsna consciousness is received by the mercy of guru, the spiritual master, and by the mercy of Krsna. When the spiritual master and Lord Krsna will that a person must have Krsna consciousness, then the seed very nicely fructifies. That spiritual asset makes one fortunate, and thus he becomes spiritually enlivened, and then he meets a bona fide spiritual master, and, by the grace of the spiritual master, he can receive the seed of Krsna consciousness. That is his inner urge: "Where can I get this association? Where can I get this awareness?" SSR 8 Attaining Perfection The spark of love for Krsna is struck by the spiritual master, the pure devotee. As for myself, my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, ordered me to take up the responsibility of spreading Krsna consciousness in the Western world. His Divine Grace had a great desire to preach Lord Caitanya's message in the West, and my success is both his grace and pleasure. When I first met my spiritual master, I was a very young man in India, a nationalist, engaged in a very responsible office. But although I did not want to go, one of my friends, who is still living in Calcutta, forcibly took me to His Divine Grace. I was reluctant to see him because in our home our father used to receive many sannyasis and I was not very satisfied with their dealings. I thought that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja might be a similar man, and if he were, what business would I have in seeing him? But my friend took me forcibly. "Why not see him?" he asked. I finally relented and went with him, and I profited. NBS 2 P Narada-bhakti-sutra The next stage in the process of elevation to love of God is sadhu-sanga, association with persons already in the highest stage of love of God. One who avoids such association and simply engages in mental speculation or so-called meditation cannot be raised to the perfectional platform. But one who associates with pure devotees or an elevated devotional society goes to the next stage--bhajana-kriya, or acceptance of the regulative principles of worshiping the Supreme Lord. One who associates with a pure devotee of the Lord naturally accepts that person as his spiritual master, and when the neophyte devotee accepts a pure devotee as his spiritual master, the duty of the spiritual master is to train the neophyte in the principles of regulated devotional service, or vaidhi-bhakti. At this stage the devotee's service is based on his capacity to serve the Lord. The expert spiritual master engages his followers in work that will gradually develop their consciousness of service to the Lord. Therefore the preliminary stage of understanding prema, love of God, is to approach a proper pure devotee, accept him as one's spiritual master, and execute regulated devotional service under his guidance. NBS 8 P Narada-bhakti-sutra Only by the combined mercy of the pure devotee--the bona fide spiritual master--and the Supreme Lord Himself can one attain pure devotional service to the Lord. If someone is fortunate enough to find a pure devotee and accept him as his spiritual master, then this spiritual master, out of his causeless mercy, will impart the knowledge of pure devotional service. And it is the Lord, out of His causeless mercy, who sends His most confidential servitor to this world to instruct pure devotional service. 740815BG.VRN Lectures So guru is helping from inside and from outside. Antar-bahih. So Krsna is so kind. Therefore Krsna manifests Himself as spiritual master. Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, saksad-dhari, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih. Manifestation of empowered. One who is pure devotee, he's empowered by Krsna to act as spiritual master. Therefore spiritual master should be accepted: saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktah. It is described there. Tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih. Those who are learned scholars, actual devotees, they accept. But that does not mean guru is Krsna. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. Now, that, if you accept, you... Accept means you honor spiritual master as good as Krsna, because he's representative. But not that Mayavada philosophy that guru and Krsnais the same. This is simultaneously one and different. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. He is as good as Krsna because he is very, very dear to Krsna. Why dear? Because he's preaching on behalf of Krsna. What Krsna wants, he's doing that. Therefore he's very dear. 721018SB.VRN Lectures So Krsna says, "To My devotees," tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam, "those who are engaged twenty-four hours in unadulterated devotional service to the Lord," buddhi-yogam dadami tam, "I give them intelligence how he can go back to home, back to Godhead." Why this is? Now tesam evanukampartham. Special favor for these persons who are twenty-four hours engaged in devotional service under the direction of bona fide spiritual master. You cannot become a pure, perfect devotee unless you are directed by another pure, unadulterated devotee. Evam parampara-praptam. So therefore Rupa Gosvami has mentioned in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, adau gurvasrayam. You have to find out, you have to take shelter, not find out. You have to take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. That is the beginning, adau gurvasrayam sad-dharma-prccha. Then you'll have to inquire, inquiry, sad-dharma, about pure devotional service. That is sad-dharma. Sad-dharma-prccha. Sadhu-vartmanuvartanam. Sad-dharma-prccha. You learn something about devotional service, but the devotional service should be executed by following mahajana. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. Therefore we are Rupanugas. We follow the footsteps of Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami. 750629SB.DEN Lectures So how it is possible? Yatha krsnarpita-pranah. Pranah, pranair arthair dhiya vaca. Prana, prana means life. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna, such person. How this dedication of life to Krsna'sservice can be made possible? That is also stated here: tat-purusa-nisevaya. You have to take shelter of a person who is a devotee of Krsna, and you have to serve. That means you have to accept a devotee, a true devotee, a pure devotee, as your guide. That is our process. The Rupa Gosvami says in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, "The first process is, first step is adau gurvasrayam to accept guru." Accept guru Guru means Krsna's representative. One who is not Krsna's representative, he cannot become guru. Guru does not mean any nonsense can become guru. No. Only tat-purusa. Tat-purusa means a person who has accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead as everything. Tat-purusa-nisevaya. That means Vaisnava, pure devotee. So it is not very difficult. By the grace of Krsna there are pure devotees, so one has to take shelter of him. Adau gurvasrayam. Then sad-dharma-prcchat: after accepting a bona fide spiritual master, one should be inquisitive to learn what is the science of Krsna. Sad-dharma-prcchat sadhu-marga-anugamanam. And this Krsna consciousness means one has to follow the footsteps of the devotees, sadhu-marga-anugamanam. 721110ND.VRN Lectures Devotional service is not dependent on subhasubha-karma. It is simply dependent on the mercy of Krsna and His devotees. Krsna de... Sadhu. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija. Guru-krsna-krpaya. Naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim, mahiyasam pada-rajo-'bhisekam niskincananam na vrnita ya... Unless we surrender to the lotus feet of a pure devotee, it is not possible to come to the platform of devotional service. That is the way. We cannot taste the honey within the bottle. The bottle must be opened by the expert. If you simply lick up the bottle, if we think, "Now we are tasting honey," that is not the proper way. We should get the bottle opened by the expert, and when we taste within the bottle, then actually... Similarly, devotional service, without being opened by the..., open, without the doorbeing opened by the devotee, we cannot enter into the region. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija. Therefore the process is, as recommended by Srila Rupa Gosvami, adau gurvasrayam. You must select, you must accept the guru who's coming in parampara system. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Sampradaya. That is recommended. We have got Vaisnava-sampradaya, four sampradaya: Ramanuja-sampradaya, Madhva-sampradaya, Nimbarka-sampradaya. So intelligent persons should select guru from these sampradayas and follow his instruction. Then the path of devotional service will be very easily opened. This is the way. Yes? Go on. 69-06-10.Muk Letter: Mukunda The answer to your Istagosthi questions are as follows: Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance. And who is a liberated person? One who knows Krishna. It is stated in BG, fourth chapter, anyone who knows Krishna in truth is immediately liberated, and after quitting the present body, he immediately goes to Krishna. That means he becomes a resident of Krishna Loka. As soon as one is liberated he is immediately a resident of Krishna Loka, and anyone who knows the truth of Krishna can become Spiritual Master. That is the version of Lord Caitanya. So to summarize the whole thing, it is to be understood that a bonafide Spiritual Master is a resident of Krishna Loka. 72-12-14.Tus Letter: Tusta Krsna As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind. 760812ed.teh Conversations Prabhupada: The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore ordinary persons or a little advanced person cannot understand. And unless one is fully aware of Krsna, one cannot become spiritual master. The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore you don't find many spiritual masters. Go on. Of course as all these direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada and hundreds of others as well completely contradict the current ISKCON "guru tattva." If you mention any of them in an ISKCON temple you risk being bashed, banned and called a "dirty stinking ritvik"... No doubt our friends at the BBT are working to cleverly "correct" Srila Prabhupada's "errors" in this matter... Look for some "newly-discovered" tapes carefully reconstructed by the Bhaktivedanta Archives by extracting words, sentences and paragraphs from various places in Srila Prabhupada's teachings and carefully assembled by the BBT team on the BA's state-of-the-art digital editing equipment producing classes that Srila Prabhupada didn't actually ever give supporting the current GBC's bogus guru system... They have the technology... Also look for "new improved enlarged and revised" versions of Srila Prabhupada's books from the BBT reflecting the changing face of the absolute truth... Jayadvaita Swami's vision is every reprint should be a "new version" of the book with lots of changes and "improvements." I have personally heard him describe this vision at Mayapur some years ago and now we see it is becoming a fact... Of course every time you upgrade your BBT folio program be prepared to adjustto a "new version" of the absolute truth... Everything will be "just a little different" from the previous version... Of course in a few years the original ideas presented by Srila Prabhupada will be completely lost altogether... Chant Hare Krishna and be happy! Please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet, thank you so much for reading this and please give me your blessings so I can somehow become a serious follower of Srila Prabhupada. Your servant Madhudvisa dasa ––––––––––––––– If anyone can tell me about the author, point me in the direction of his whereabouts or provide contact info,I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Thankyou Shiva, you can consistently be counted on for sameness. Your effect is to always dissapate and equalize things. You merge us all in the infinite.

Brajamandala and Yashoda, thanks for your heart-felt support. You defied the common consensus and expressed your own feelings. I am indebted to your strength and friendship. Please accept my obeisances. Mahak, I am enlivened by your discourse. We are Prabhupada's family and our glory is be residents of the house that Prabhupada built. Relatives may fight, it doesn't mean they don't love one another. I'm happy to accept you as brother. I'm sorry I didn't show more sensitivity to your feelings. I wasn't raised with much affection and it has definately taken its toll on me. Please accept my obeisances. Please post your future victories against the forces of evil. I anxiously await news of your triumph. To all others, adeu. If I am left alone now, I will simply make a few posts not of my own mind. I will not be argumentative and challenging, therefore I will not participate. My word and duty should mean everything to me. I look forward to the Krsna katha found in this unique spot. Hare Krsna! ––––––––––– Oh, I may not get another chance to say this, so here it goes: I do not think it so improbable that many or all of us can potentially or practically change the world. In fact, I think it's a crying shame if we don't. We all know mundane history. We all know the motives and circumstances of "great personalities" who affected world events in their particular context. Sometimes, even the blowing of the wind decides the fate of nations or world history as in the destruction of the Spanish armada against England. Our family of vaisnavas, have the greatest gift and the highest purpose. We are most intelligent compared to karmis and we understand the substance behind the veil. We have the natural advantage of philosophical basis and singular purpose. We also have the highest debt to superiors. We have the potential to represent God Himself and call maya to serve us. How much more capable are we to change the world than mundane men! We are better suited by virute of our knowledge and motive than most historical figures. We all know the secret: promote Krsna consciousness on the strength of the saints and authorities of Vedic culture. Simply propagate their message and all beings will be satisfied. If mundane ambitious men can be so influential, What is their secret? What do they know that we don't? What are we waiting for? We don't have to be Prabhupadas. We don't have to be qualified. Like the hoardes of sankirtana devotees that once existed, we simply have to engage in intelligent service. ––––––––––– This is all so dramatic! I am humored as you must be.

Guest, you are very duplicitous. Why not just address this to me? If you, Brajamandala and I were standing around, would you face and engage him while talking at length to me? Women do this. Hmm? It is mediums such as these, corporate structures, and government bureaucracy that allow people to manifest impersonal behavior they would not ordinarily do. Otherwise, it sounds like you're the one with the wounded ego... I do have a wounded ego and hurt feelings and I'm expressing as much. Obviously, my opponents are suffering in a similar way. Otherwise, why do they persist in demeaning me? If you don't care, you won't bother. The attacks are not logical. It must be hurt people lashing out to hurt others. "No one listens to me. No one is recognizing me for my superior intelligence!"... More blowback. There are many who have attacked me with unsupported emotional slander––as you are doing now. It is a time-tested effective tactic. Jarasanda opted for this at the Rajasuja sacrifice, the Pandavas and Kauravas interacted the same, and of course in Kali-yuga, people never tire of it. I have complained about a lack of fairness from many of you, not that I'm being misunderstood. Rather, I am directly accusing many on this board of whinning like babies when they're not indulged and flattered, much like you're doing with this line. I am not crying for superiority or fame, I'm shouting "That's unfair!" But don't count on it... Yes, exactly. No matter what I say, some will not accept it. And if they don't accept it, they're not convinced and somehow it's not true. This is the infallible logic of karmis. You can't prove anything to a moron. You can ultimately undermine any knowledge with just crass rejection or doubt. If you say something that is completely nonsense, you may also attract a devoted following of one or two cheerleaders. So don't take yourself too seriously... This foolishness of this proposal is that it is more descriptive of you than me. I have stuck to the issues and not deviated from Prabhupada. But never mind that, it's all worthless because I said it and nothing I say is relevant. You, and others like you, on the other hand indulge in superficial courtesies in the pursuit of bawdy fun. When you are seriously challenged, you just resort to cheating yourself and others all in the name of entertainment––or just to hide your ignorance. indifferent to the opinions of the world... You can't even take your own advice seriously. Why should I or anyone else? If you're going to quit, just do it silently... Nothing could please some of you more than the vision of me walking away like a dog with his tail between his legs. In your decrepit minds, you would somehow be vindicated with that image. Out of sight, out of mind! Well, I'm not your dog! I have amiably offered to refrain from discourse to please you guys. Don't ask for anything more. I'm not gonna disappear and forsake all the advantages here just so some jerks can feel superior. If I talk with some of you I will supposedly offend––just like I'm doing now––and I will waste alot of my precious time just pissing off "devotees". By not engaging in personal dialogue, I will avoid my frustrations with that activity and remain passive for the health of the board. Stop being control freaks and telling me what to do! It hasn't and it won't work. Be happy with your miserly successes and stop being too greedy where I'm concerned. Give me a chance to make good my promise and stop engaging me. You should know by now the result is simply more of what you don't want. Hare Krsna!

Mahak, As I said before, my board experience is nil and I'm still learning the dynamics of it. You point out that alot of people react about leaving as I have and I can understand why. Your purpose here is different from mine. I am after debate and issues. I am after philosophical positions and supporting the truth through testing and circumspection. I wanted to test my knowledge and forge my skills for larger things I am about to try. I foolishly thought this board would be an excellent venue for this, but I stand sober and free from such fanciful intoxication by the mercy of persons like yourself. I will leave in-as-much as I will refrain from participating like before. I will make some posts of the authorities and leave my inebrities out of the equation. therefore, I can satisfy those of you who don't want my input and still have access to the finer things to be experienced on this board. I personally think thos board, with all it's faults, it's still the best thing of it's kind going anywhere. Your note on Hridyananda is understood. I have had my "experience" with him also. However, I can't deny what he's accomplished and he is perhaps the strongest preacher in ISKCON to battle the dogmatic forces of maya. In many ways, he has expanded what Prabhupada presented with contemporary comment and powerful insights about the hypocrisy of modern man. To categorically reject one's many accomplishment because of some minor faults is not rational. I am not aware of any major misgivings in his position as there have been in fallen gurus. However, knowledge is where you find it and he has plenty of it. Concerning his seemingly egotistical comments, I find that "sometimes" in the gopis or Prabhupada or anyone. If it's not a recurring thing, I don't give it much importance. I look forward to your entertaining wit and experience with the others. I personally want to avoid many of the conflicts I may end up creating, so I will just be a "lurker" for the most part as I feel that I am rather inept when it comes to the niceties of social discourse and etiquette--sometimes I feel I bumble around. Thank you for your compassion and understanding. Hare Krsna!

Mahak, We may have things in common, but I am certainly not you. I have made such announcements, but I still write, and I returned... I didn't have to reply to this, but I am confirming your suspicion just to show you how write you are––in part. This board has been and is an experience in communication. I am learning alot about people's motives and plans. My review of this, of course, is necessary to update what I surmise. It is useful for my experience and future plans. It is my conclusion that announcements like this are quickly read, as well as follow-up comments, by the announcer. Kinda like slammin the door for an impact... Again, your experience is more than mine and I'm happy to admit your insight. I do not participate on any other board. I had a brief experience on CNN before––became quickly fried with the ignorance. I'm pretty fried with this general experience too. Still there are bits of nectar to be had by the board moderators and a few others and I find it hard to throw all that away. No, sir, it is not everyone else that fails here... This is just emotional appeal. I didn't say everyone fails. I said most people are not able to deal with the issues objectively (including yourself) and they quickly resort to character assasinations by recourse as you are doing here. Besides, how can you objectively make any statement about the "success" or "failure" of any of the boards participants? Finding fault or minimizing others is inability of seeing the self as the greatest roadblock... More emotional appeal. You seem to be hard at work practicing what you preach. Anyway, the greatest danger is not fault finding or minimizing others if it is done in accordance with devotional pursuit. We all have to judge and some will be on a level to correct others. The greatest danger is accepting truth for untruth and visa-versa. The problem with a board like this is the egotistic appeal of promoting oneself. And I think we are all suspect, myself included. It has certainly caused anxiety for me and I do plan on leaving, but on my terms––not yours. I will be posting Dialectic Spiritualism Highlights and probably some essays in the future. They will not be full of my archair opinions and should be acceptable to everyone as they either come from or are based on Hridyanada Maharaja (he finished the Bhagavatam after Prabhupada left) or His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I will return to the board maybe once a day for now to take advantage of the unique articles JNdas sometimes posts regarding spiritual life. I'm engaged in research and it is convieniennt for me to do so. My posting of articles is in the same vein and I hope you wouldn't deny me that. I will try not to interact with the board members in any other way. You will not have to worry about me giving critique or criticizing individuals. I understand this complaint from others and will comply. My only exception is the Vipramukha Swami quits thread under World events. I will respond as necessary. Otherwise, I hope to serve all of you by not bursting your bubbles. And speaking of that thread, your comments are not so much psychic ability as they are a reaction to my post there. There is an amiable situation which––in this case––appears to be no communication at all. Respect my space and I will respect yours. Hare Bol!

Guest, I took a peak back and was hooked. I am officially absent. Your sannyasi examples above actually support my postion more than your own. Thus I asked you earlier to explain what you meant in your first Read Prabhupada book posting. You did not reply. Now, it seems you have no comprehension of your actions and how little they mean. You make a stronger case for my position while deluding yourself that they support yours. You also mix broad spiritual slogans with your own personal feelings as if it's all somehow the same thing. It's not! You are a useless devotee who hits your mother every day! Now, isn't that statement a bit outrageous? In other words, you're not useless and you don't hit your mother every day. But this is exactly what I've been getting lately from people like you––nothing more than blind, ambitious attacks at character assasination. I love talking to devotees if they know what they're talking about. JNdas here (and his ashram association) all seem to be very competent and knowledgeable. But beyond that, they have some realization. Their own words convey the essence of the scriptures in refreshing ways. Their spontaneous devotion is evident. There are a few others. But I tire of devotees who preach superficial compassion and compromise in the name of eternal truth. This exploitation of religion has historically been going on a long time and I'm sick of it. I react with criticisms and challenges when I see it. That's just my style. We can't all be like you. It's too bad we don't have more experts like Prabhupada. However, there are a few mahatmas who are relations experts. Let's just hope they can be as influential in time. But as far as my criticisms on this board, though they may not be up to your superficial standards, they are in line with what I know about the person from dialogue and not crazy loudmouth name-calling with no foundation in truth. So who's more compassionate, the self-stylized heretic who reveals people's hypocrisy but can stay on the issues, or the "compassionate devotee" who wildly slanders and offends without foundation? I am not a great devotee, never pretended to be. But I will change the world and that is much because of the person I am. How will all your compassion manifest? I personally have noticed from world diplomacy the ettiquette and compassionate behavior you bring up. The businessmen, the politicians, and even Hare Krsna GBC's all manifest this "professional" care and concern in their presentations to the public. And it is evident on this board. But what is the practical result of this useless diplomacy aimed at seduction? The world is going to hell. That's all. President Bush delivered his first public address making his case against Iraq with "acceptable" pillow-talk. I've never witnessed such an outrageous contrast of style to content in my life. And after all, your compassion quickly dissolved into conflict when there was self righteous ego to be enjoyed. Is it violent to practice the truth––even if it may be unflattering? On the other hand, what does all this superficial flattery accomplish? You may say that my words are never spoken by a true devotee. I personally disagree and doubt that you know what you're talking about based on your replies above, but still I give you the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of what you think my qualifications are, higher beings do communicate with me and they have given me a program to change the world... and I am faithfully performing that service. I am certainly unqualified in many ways, but I have more than enough tenacity to perform my revealed service. What about the example of the last two years of the Pandavas exile at the palace of King Virata? King Yudhisthira was placing dice with King Virata while suggesting that it was not the King's son (Uttara Kumara was it?) who was routing the Kaurava army. Virata became angry and threw dice at Yudhisthira's head causing him to bleed. Due to time and circumstances that he was aware of, all this was proper and Virata was not at fault. Still, the Pandava brothers were going to kill the king for his ignorance of the real facts and he was saved only by Yudhisthira himself. Similarly, there are many stories of anger involving curses and counter curses in the Vedic literatures from persons far superior to us. What about Ghadhari and others cursing Krsna? So many examples. Your simple understanding is neophyte. The world is full of as many different capabilities and styles as there are people. Each has their strenghts and weaknesses. Each has their own part to play. Again, we can't all be like you. The near future may prove you right about me. Theoretically, a slaughterhouse owner could ascend to heaven in this life while I descend to hell. Such are the ways of karma and the choices people make. But it is much more likely that you will be embarrased––if indeed you are as "compassionate" as you subtely advertise yourself to be. Truth is not subjective. Truth is truth. The truth of your value on my worth or my claims herein has not been revealed as yet. Restrain your speech to what you can authoritatively speak on and there will be no fist fights. Read Srila Prabhupada's books? It's not enough that I'm transcribing Dialectic Spiritualism (evidenced by my posts here) and cross-referencing many related links throughout his various publications for public propagation? I'm absorbing everything with a critical eye––like a karmi may view it––and there's little or nothing to fault! I am dedicating a good portion of my life to just that activity, but somehow you missed it! You tell me to do what I'm already doing? Sounds like more of a war cry than compassionate advice to me. In your case reading may not help. The chanting of the Holy Name is the prescribed method for this age. Stick to what you know if you want to present yourself as an authority.

I was once advised as a sankirtana devotee not to give my energy to karmis who are argumentative. It's just a waste of time. Rather I should intelligently put my energies where they can be useful to someone else. The foolish will simply argue for their own destruction. They believe in themselves. I have only provided insults to people refusing to be philosophical and straying from the issues. In return, I get simply get shallow blowback of egotistical crap. I am going to leave the board now as I almost did once before. My personal experience is that many of you really care little about promoting Krsna consciousness and debating the issues. Rather, you try to impress everyone with your own opinions and emotional appeal that have little to do with philosophy or religion.

Guest, this reply is very sad. Just more of the same thing. It is said that you can't tell a moron anything. I have noticed that alot of people here read some good books and sometimes quote the authors. But there is very little understanding in what they read––all theoretical knowledge. They often speak out of context and even misrepresent the masters under the guise of helping others. Their preaching sounds little more than common gossip. But their greatest joy is character assassination. To do this, they assume much about their targets. Like bad philosophers, they create a straw man and blow it down. The issues are irrelevant. Rather, it's the intended offense and humiliation they're after––the fine taste of false ego. Their words betray that they take everything cheaply but themselves.

Syamasundara dasa: He states that unlike the other nomads, God is absolute necessity and eternal truth, and he is governed by the law of contradiction. That is to say, it is impossible to conceive of no God. Srila Prabhupada: The atheists say that there is no God, although God is there. Unless God is there, where is the idea of God coming from? The atheist refuses to accept God. Similarly, the impersonalists refuse to accept a Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unless the idea of personality is there, how can they consider God to be impersonal? All this is due to frustration.

One thing is painfully clear to a Vaisnava with a little understanding concerning the material world: Everybody's trying to tell you their own thing!

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that space and time are mere appearances and that the ultimate reality is different. Srila Prabhupada: The ultimate reality is Krsna, sarva-karana-karanam (Brahma-samhita 5.1), the cause of all causes. Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz calls the ultimate entities monads. The word “monad” means “unity” or, “oneness.” He says that the stuff out of which even atoms are made are all monads, the ultimate particles. Srila Prabhupada: That small particle is not final. Within that particle there is Krsna. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahma-samhita 5.35). Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that these monads are individual, conscious, active, and alive, and that they range in quality from the lowest type (matter) through the higher types, such as souls, to the highest, which is God. Srila Prabhupada: Does he state that within the atom there is the soul? Syamasundara dasa: His theory is that even the atoms are composed of these monads, which possess activity, consciousness, individuality, and other inherent qualities. The monad is the force or activity that constitutes the essence of a substance. Srila Prabhupada: We understand from Brahma-samhita that Krsna is within the atom. That is Krsna who is the substance, the summum bonum. He is smaller than the smallest, and is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature. Syamasundara dasa: Then how are the individualities accounted for? Srila Prabhupada: Every individual soul is awarded a portion of independence because each is part and parcel of God. Thus he has the quality of independence, but in minute quantity. That is his individuality. We coinsider the atom to be the smallest particle of matter, but we say that Krsna is the force within the atom. Leibnitz is suggesting that some force or power exists, but we are directly saying that the force or power is Krsna. Syamasundara dasa: But he says that the force or power in each atom is individual, separate, different. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is so. By His omnipotence, Krsna can expand Himself in innumberable forms. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam (Brahma-samhita 5.33). The word ananta means unlimited, and it is clearly said andantara-stham: He is within the atom. Syamasundara dasa: Is he within each atom as an individual entity different from every other entity? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, if Krsna is there, He is individual. There are varieties of atoms, and Syamasundara dasa: How is each Krsna different? How is it He is an individual in each of the atoms? Srila Prabhupada: Why is He not an individual? Krsna is always an individual. He is always a person, the Supreme Person, and He can expand Himself innumerably. Syamasundara dasa: And is Paramatma a person? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, every expansion is a person. We are all atomic expansions of K§øëa, and we are all individual persons. Paramatma is another expansion, but that is a different kind of expansion. Syamasundara dasa: Is the jivatma, the individual soul, also a person? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If he were not a person, then how would you account for the differences? We are all different persons. You may agree with my opinion or not, but in any case you are an individual. Krsna is also an individual. Nityo nityanam. There are innumerable individual souls, but He is the supreme individual person. Now Leibnitz may say that within the atom there is a monad, or whatever––you could call it by any name you want––but within the atom the force is Krsna. Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz maintains that the lowest type of monad is found with material atoms, and then they progress to higher monads, which are souls. Srila Prabhupada: Directly we say Krsna, and that is automatically spiritual. Syamasundara dasa: He says that each monad has an inner or mental activity, a spiritual life. Srila Prabhupada: As soon as we say Krsna, we include everything. Syamasundara dasa: So even within material atoms, there is a spiritual life, a spiritual force? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, force means spiritual force. Syamasundara dasa: He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, and that the essential nature of all bodies is force. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body. Syamasundara dasa: But even within the dead body there are forces. There is the force of decomposition. Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is within the atom, and the body is a combination of so many atoms; therefore the force for creating other living entities is also there even in the process of decomposition. When the individual soul’s force is stopped within a particular body, we call that body a dead body. Still, Krsna’s force is there because the body is a combination of atoms. Syamasundara dasa: He says that what is manifested to our senses, what occupies space and exists in time, is ony an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. Physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature. Srila Prabhupada: Physical nature is a by-product. as I have explained, according to your desire, you receive or create a body. Physical nature is subservient to the soul. Syamasundara dasa: According to Leibnitz, these monads create bodies. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, at the time of death, you think in a certain way, and your next body is created. Therefore you create your next body according to your karma. Syamasundara dasa: But does the monad of of a hydrogen molecule, for instance, create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule? Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is accidental. Syamasundara dasa: Then does it also desire to become a water molecule? Does the hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become water? Srila Prabhupada: No. The ultimate desire is of Krsna. If you take it in that way, Krsna is within every atom, and therefore Krsna wants whatever is to be. Therefore he wills that these two elements become one, and therefore the molecules combine to create water, or whatever. Thus there is a creation, and again there is another creation, and so on. In any case, the ultimate brain governing all creation is Krsna. Syamasundara dasa: But does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire? Srila Prabhupada: No. Because Krsna is within the atoms, they combine. It is not that the atoms as matter are individually willing to combine; rather, because Krsna is within the atoms, He knows that by certain combinations, certain creations will result. Syamasundara dasa: But does the individual soul have a little independence to choose? Srila Prabhupada: No. Bhagavad-gita states that when the individual soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes. Syamasundara dasa: So we have no free will? Srila Prabhupada: Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore, He is the ultimate cause. Syamasundara dasa: But I thought you have been saying that we have a little independence. Srila Prabhupada: We have the independence in the sense that we may deny or affirm, but unless Krsna sanctions, we cannot do anything. Syamasundara dasa: If we desire something, we take a body because of that desire. Now, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become a part of water and be given a body accordingly? Does it have the independence to desire something? Srila Prabhupada: As far as we understand from the Vedas––andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahma-samhita 5.35)–– Krsna is within the paramanu. It is not stated that the soul is within the paramanu. Syamasundara dasa: Then the individual soul is not present within the atom? Srila Prabhupada: No. But Krsna is present. Syamasundara dasa: then Leibnitz’s view does not accord with the Vedas? Srila Prabhupada: No. Syamasundara dasa: Is this because he states that in matter there is also this kind of individuality? Srila Prabhupada: That individuality is in Krsna. As I have stated, Krsna knows that a certain element will be formed when so many atoms combine. It is not the individual soul enacting this, but Krsna Himself directly.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz believed that truth could be represented by an exact, mathematical science of symbols, which could form a universal language, a linguistic calculus. He believed in a rational world and an empirical world, and that each stood opposed to the other. He felt that each had its own truth, which applied to itself, and that each had to be understood according to its own logic. Thus for Leibnitz, there are two kinds of truth. One is the truth of reason, which is a priori. This is innate knowledge which we have prior to and independent of our experience in the material world. The other truth is posteriori, which is knowledge acquired from experience. This is accidental knowledge in the sense that it is not necessary. Srila Prabhupada: The real truth is that God has a plan, and one has to be taught that plan by one who knows it. This is explained in Caitanya-caritamrta: “Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this living entity naturally awakens.” (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madh. 22.107) The truth is there, but we have forgotten it. Through the process of chanting and hearing, we can revive the truth, which is that we are eternal servants of Krsna. The living entity is good by nature because he is part and parcel of the supreme good, but due to material association, he has become conditioned. Now we have to again draw forth this goodness through the process of Krsna consciousness. Syamasundara dasa: As an innate, or a priori truth, Leibnitz gives the exmple of a triangle: three angles of a triangle must always equal two right angles. this is truth of reason which is necessarily permanent. The other type of truth is gathered by experience and is called accidental, or unnecessary. For example, we see that snow is white, but it is also possible that snow may be red. Srila Prabhupada: It is also experienced that the three angles of a triangle must always equal two. Syamasundara dasa: But this truth exists independently. Srila Prabhupada: How is that? Not everyone knows how a triangle is formed. Only when you study geometry do you understand. You cannot ask any child or any man who has no knowledge of geometry. Syamasundara dasa: Whethere the man knows it or not, this truth exists. Srila Prabhupada: But truth by definition exists. It is not this truth or that truth. You may now it or not, but truth exists. So why is he using this particular example? Syamasundara dasa: Because there is also another kind of truth, which may say that snow is white, but that truth is not absolute because snow could conceivably be red. However, a triangle must always have certain innate properties. That is necessary truth. Srila Prabhupada: Any mathematical calculation is like that. Why use this example? Two plus two equals four. That is always the truth according to mathematical principles. Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz was trying to prove that there are certain truths that we cannot deny, that exist independent of our knowledge, and that are fundamental. There are other truths, like snow is white, which may or not be true because our senses deceive us. Srila Prabhupada: But that is due to our defective senses. It is a fact that snow is white. Now why should it be red? In any case, we have no experience of red snow. Pure snow is white by nature. It may assume another color due to contact with something else, but actually it is white. It is an innate truth that the three angles of a triangle must always equal two right angles, and it is also an innate truth that snow is white, that water is liquid, that stone is hard, and that sugar is sweet. These are fundamental truths that cannot be changed. Similarly, the living entity is the eternal servant of God, and that is his natural position. Water may become hard due to temperature changes, but as soon as the temperature rises, the water again turns into a liquid. thus the liquidity of water is the truth, the constitutional position of water, because water by deefinition is a liquid. Similarly, the whiteness of snow is truth, and the servitude of the living entity is truth. In the conditional world, the living entity serves maya, and that is not truth. We cannot consider that there are two types of truth. Truth is one. What we take to be not truth is maya. There cannot be two truths. Maya has no existence, but it appears to be true or factual due to our imperfect senses. A shadow has no existence, but it resembles whatever projects it. In the mirror, you may see your face in exactly the same way that it exists, but that is not truth. The truth is one, and there cannot be two. What is taken for truth at the present moment is called maya. Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that innate truths are governed by the principle of contradiction. That is, the opposite of the truth is impossible to conceive. Srila Prabhupada: The opposite is maya. Syamasundara dasa: For instance, it is impossible to conceive that the three angles of a triangle cannot equal two right angles. Srila Prabhupada: My point is that there are not two types of truth. When you think that there are, you are mistaken. When you think that two plus two equals five, you are mistaken. two plus two is always four, and that is the truth. Similarly, snow is always white, and when you think that snow is red, it is the same as thinking that two plus two equals five. It is an untruth. You cannot say that the whiteness of snow is another type of truth. You may make a mistake by thinking snow to be red, but this mistake cannot invalidate the truth that snow is white or that water is liquid. There is one truth, and any other truth is but a shadow. It is not true. Our language must be exact. You can see your face in the mirror as exactly the same, but it is a shadow only; therefore it is not truth. You cannot say that the reflection of your face in the mirror is another type of truth. Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz would call this type of truth conditional truth. Srila Prabhupada: That conditional truth is not the truth. For instance, the living entity is trying to become master of the material world. He thinks, “I am monarch of all I survey.” That is not the truth. The truth is that he is the eternal servant of God. You cannot say that because he is trying to imitate God that he is God. There cannot be a second God. God is one, and that is the Absolute Truth. Our point is that we do not accept the proposition that truth is two. There are relative truths, but Krsna is the Absolute Truth. Krsna is the substance, and everything is emanating from Krsna by Krsna’s energy. Water is one of Krsna’s energies, but that energy is not the Absolute Truth. Water is always a liquid, but that is relative truth. Absolute Truth is one. Leibnitz should more precisely say that there is Absolute Truth and relative truth, not that there are two types of truth.

I'm starting #3 here because my slow modem takes awhile to load long threads. This way, it's easier on the viewers and the server. I am transcribing "Dialectic Spiritualism" for my own purposes. Below you will find highlights from that book. Check back for additions. I would prefer that no replies be made. It will be a long enough thread without replies. These threads are simply provided for the benefit of those who might benefit from them.

“Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Visnu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.” (Bhag. 7.5.31)