ethos

Theist, I took the convenience of editing this and my last post for clarification after you were offline. Took me a couple hours! (Revised; that's 3 hours! I need some sleep). Please review. Interesting Bhagavad-gita reference. I can accept that. It sounds right. But I would like the specific reference if you can provide it. Anyway, why not accept further instructions now as we did? Can you draw the line between constitutional bodily limitations and "ignorance is no excuse"? My understanding is that most modern Christian faith simply involves belief: "Believe in Jesus and you are saved." Again, I think theoretically and exceptionally there are cases where someone dies and becomes advanced simply by Krsna's mercy. But is that opportunity available for everyone? I think by contrast within the Vedic tradition, it is much more sober and mature to think of spiritual life as a difficult cultivation - the greatest endeavor - by which success and realization, backed by sadhana and renunciation, blend seemlessly into the presense of God. 2nd and 3rd paragraph: Ok, sure. "So if their faith in Christ can be strengthened" ...that's exactly my argument! Lastly: Yes, but it is time and circumstance(s). Eternal truths remain but may be adjusted according to circumstance: Prabhupada instituted 16 instead of 64 rounds. It is different now than it was then. And stronger medicine may be needed for an advanced disease. Isn't that the issue behind the Hare Krsna mantra? Modern society does not have a religious philosophy to deal with the multitude of problems surrounding our unfortunate circumstances. Therefore, Prabhupada came to shake us out of our ignorance and remind us of our link to the highest truth: Krsna consciousness. I'm starting to feel like there's nothing more to be said on my part - I've said it all. I'm feeling burned out!

Yes, you have a good point. Perhaps you're right, Theist. I have already agreed with this in theory above. "My earnest sincerity certainly surpasses all rules and regulations and liberation is waiting to serve me." Do you believe that? What if I told you I was a "saved" Christian? Now I will again take a leap and say I know alot more than most "Christian saints" about spiritual life. Damn, I'm feeling next to God! (ha, ha) ...And I'm arguing your comparitive superiority too! Why do we have the term "confidential knowldge"? The "simple" Vrndavana residents were considered exhaulted and far superior to all the sophisticated city residents. I think loving attachment is far superior to knowledge or aristocracy. And I theoretically believe there have been or could be Christian devotees who could surpass me or you simply by their own insightful realizations. In fact I feel it's true. But wouldn't such advanced devotees readily appreciate and adhere to the beauty and infinite wisdom of Krsna consciousness? There certainly are exceptions, but let's establish the rule. We don't know about the position of previous "saints," but we can be more certain about contemporary practicioners who display "symptoms" of advancement. Let's concentrate on what we know through the eyes of scripture. Let's not assume the remote chance to be true if the evidence is not practical to our life. I'm a rebel too. So I'm putting forth a theoretical question. Look at your animal slaughter example above. Does "simple faith and desire" mean a sincere Christian is a vegetarian? Probably not. Would he or she come to this conclusion and practice simply by their inner vision? ... maybe. But probably not. Krsna says "This will please me and not that." By his many criticisms, Prabhupada pointed out that the Christians are way off mark. What about Prabhupada saying if the foundation is wrong, so is everything else? His specific example was how if the false ego is thinking I am this body, then the intelligence and mind and all lower facilities are all false. So if Christians don't know so many things about reality - including the absolute personality or Krsna, the most important reality - then what value is there religion? ... not to say it doesn't have value... but does it compare to Krsna consciousness? Why not achieve the best you can be? Also, what about the aspect of karma and stumbling blocks on the path of self realization? The Pandavas and such people would think they were simply ruined to have a "blight" on their character. What about the built in "blights" of Christianity as its understood and practiced today? You're not a Christian, are you? Why argue they should be? I was raised a Christian as alot of us were. I went to Methodist Christian church 3 times a week for many years. I've also been to Episcapalian and other churches. I went to a Catholic private school and my nun teacher wanted to make me an alter boy even though I wasn't a Catholic (you see we attended mass during school hours). ... But you can give up lower taste(s) by experiencing a higher taste. What do you mean they will go to Christ? Please expand this concept. Now Bhaktavasya and Theist are conspiring against me! Conspiracies everywhere!

I repectfully disagree. There is dissention and bickering in the absence of Prabhupada or Christ or any prominent religious leader. Let's keep this on a philosophical platform and not resort to slander or emotional appeal. I could say I don't like personal things about "you," but that's not logic or the issue, that's just politics.

Bhaktavasya, that's a very touching story. Really! But again (did I say this above?), to say many religions are right is saying nothing about the truth or content of the individual ones. Are some of you suggesting I'm not liberal and tolerant of other religions? Am I so dogmatic and sectarian to say Krsna is the only way? I really don't see what the problem is with repeating Prabhupada's criticisms of Christianity. What is the problem with contrasting and pointing out the hope and philosophy of our process with an inferior one? Prabhupada did it and I'm simply reiterating his points. Christians don't practice chanting regularly. They have no clear conception of the soul or God or duty. They eat meat and directly participate in much of the violence in the world. And so on. I'm tired of thinking 'bout their faults anyway... It's a long list. It just seems like I'm going in circles with this stuff. I beginning to feel, "been there, done that." You're supposed to know all these things. So if you can give substance to and resolve so much Christian blind faith and misunderstandings, what's the problem? Should they be left alone to kill animals or rape and enjoy the world all in the name of God's sanction and mercy? What's wrong with elevating people's consciousness (to a higher standard)? Most of us readily accepted the Vedic conclusions as evidenced by Prabhupada. Preach! And go get the devotees that are waiting! How are these prophecies to be fulfilled by quiet complicity? Why pretent they're on the same plane? They're not! We may all be Brahman - but we are certainly not Krsna!

"Ditto.Ditto." I'm certainly not happy at the fall of another guru; quite the opposite. But it's refreshing to see some constructive criticisms and insights here. Theist: I was struck by his referral to the GBC too.

Syamasundara dasa: The ego develops strategies of defense against this anxiety engendered by the id. Whenever there is a strong animalistic desire, the ego represses it for self-preservation. Srila Prabhupada: Repression is always there. If we are diseased, and the doctor advises us not to take solid food, we have to repress our appetite. In the system of brahmacarya, the brahmacari represses his desire for sex. This is called tapasya, voluntary repression. Of course, this is very difficult without some better engagement. Therefore, as I said, we have to replace an inferior engagement with a superior one. When you are captivated by seeing the beautiful form of Krsna, you naturally no longer desire to see the beautiful form of a young woman. Syamasundara dasa: The Buddhists speak not only of the repression of desires, but of their extinction. Srila Prabhupada: We don't advocate that. There will always be desires, and sometimes we have to repress them. My Guru Maharaja used to say that as soon as you rise from bed, you should beat you mind a hundered times with your shoes, and when you go to bed at night, you should beat your mind a hundered times with a broomstick. In this way, you will be able to control your mind. Wild tigers have to be controlled by repression, but when the tigers are under control, there is no question of repression. then you can play with the tigers and they will be your friends. So repression is not always bad. Hayagriva dasa: Freud considered sexual repression to be harmful, but sublimation to be often beneficial. He didn’t advocate total sexual freedom; rather he suggested that instead of trying to deny the sex drive, we should try to redirect it, perhaps to some artistic activity, or positive study. Srila Prabhupada: This means diverting our attention, and that is recommended in the Vedic culture for the brahmacari. If we are taught Krsna from the very beginning of our life, we will forget sex. Even if an adult takes to Krsna consciousness seriously, he can also forget sex. That is the experience of Yamunacarya: Yadavadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. "Since I have been engaged in Krsna consciousness, every time I think of sex, I spit." If we engage in sex without restriction, we will eventually become impotent. That is nature's way of punishment. sex cannot be artificially repressed, but there is a proper training process.

Syamasundara dasa: Freud did not believe that forgetfulness is artificial. He felt that it is a natural instinct to forget painful experiences. Srila Prabhupada: Well, that is so. For instance, when you were in the womb of your mother, you were in a very, very painful situation. Now you have forgotten that experience, and that forgetfulness is certainly natural. It is a fact that you were confined to a womb, but you cannot remember this. When you think about it, you can understand what a horrible situation that was. However, the sastras say that even though you have forgotten this, you have not escaped the situation. You are waiting for a similar painful experience.

Shiva, again, I don't know the Rtvik position. I wasn't even aware that they were so organized as to have an official doctine or whatever. Your response below is "in your face". I don't have any reason not to believe you, but I would like a little more supportive explanation before I'm convinced your criticisms are right. It seems alot of us agree that there have been "management problems" and even that Prabhupada was the one who never failed us. But beyond these aspects, where do the Rtviks really diverge? What is the different philosophy and made up conclusions they propagate? This is the original question beginning this thread.

I must say that these sastric references are very intense. It's easy to accept it as the coming of "utopia" or "heaven on earth." I am trying to temper my enthusiasm and not be a sentimental fool. It was explained to me not long ago in response to the meaning of the Golden Age question here, that Lord Caitanya's birth is actually much rarer than even Krsna's (can't remember the numbers here). In most other cycles, the people just have to go through Kali-yuga without the benefit of the Holy Name. My impression was that the Holy Name was the "Golden Age" providing a unique opportunity for shelter and liberation for the souls who can take advantage of it. The explanation was subtle as contrasted with the "drama" here. Can someone please respond with more insights? ... seeking to understand this better.

So there is a chance that some of us may see the "Golden Age" usher in? How glorious! Think of the satisfaction... to see your heart's passion verified by the masses, to personally witness fulfillment of divine prophecy, and to leave with the satisfaction that you somehow helped make it true. Yes, let me die with this Krsna consciousness!

Shiva, I have been speaking for myself. Read these threads again and you'll see it's so. I don't consider myself a Rtvik and don't even know their overall agenda. I do know that have some excellent self-evident points. If you assume me to ba a Rtvik proponent you are wrong. I simply refuse to accept dogma. And it is dogma to simply follow with blind faith or ascribe attributes to leaders they don't actually have. I think you're over the top with your conclusions, but I will not pursue it. YOU seem to be against ISKCON and the Rtviks. Why even argue these points then?

Shiva, you sound so flippant. These questions surrounding sex are about the material world. And they have great relevance is surmising our position here. Try listening for a change.

Interesting. So how does this correspond to Lord Caitanya's Golden Age?

Another great thread! I can't really ad anything to this, but it occurs to me that everyone practically has enemies. Every Vedic figure I can remember has had enemies - and often killed them. Now Prabhupada didn't personally conspire to attack Mr. Nair nor did he attempt to enlist his army of servants to do so. He simply made his case before the supreme judge and a sentence was handed down. Krsna made good on his warning of the "elephant offense."

This is a great thread. And it stayed on track. Well almost. I'm gonna stick my neck out here and say I was sure the ksytrias had some kind of license to eat meat much as they did to gamble. Let's play this again. I'll do a Vedabase search and see what I can find. Not much hope of finding it manually.

So much information in the purport to Praghosa's Bhagavatam example above as well as JNdas's original post. Heavenly beings who are spiritually advanced, have sex less often but are free of immediate gross responsibilities or incumberances. The animal kingdom only has sex when driven by nature. And generally, the lower you go the more children are produced. I would imagine this is cause they are food for others. Now imagine being born multiple times in different species only to be eaten as a child. So, can the punished soul continue then to the next form in the soul's evolution or does he have to take birth as that particular being again until he survives and matures? Are there so many births too because most of the humans go down to lower species where they are forced to accept their karma? I wonder what psychology is at play surrounding multiple births of which many are decimated. Is is supposed to subtly train the consciousness to be detached as the punishments in hell subtly mold our consciousness? And what insight these polarities between the animals and demigods have concerning our own situation! I can't think and write about this at the same time. It's quite a meditation. Can anyone contribute more?

In the translation of Praghosa's Bhagavatam example above: After years of sensual pleasure -- when a balance of one year of life remains -- the wife conceives a child. So who raises the offspring then?

I received this in my email and thought I would share it with those of you who might be interested in some public opinion concerning the Iraq War. Attack Iraq? Voices... Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:21:26 -0700 marylia@earthlink.net (marylia) Dear colleagues: You have seen many of these items, but perhaps there are one or two new information "nuggets" in here for you. Most important is that we lift our own voices now for peace. --Marylia Attack Iraq? Listen to Some of the Many Voices That Say "No" compiled from press reports, email and the web for Tri-Valley CAREs' October 2002 newsletter, Citizen's Watch SCOTT RITTER, formerly the chief United Nation weapons inspector in Iraq: "It is clear that the U.S. government doesn't want a peaceful resolution to this. It is bent on war. The move for a new Security Council resolution is a deliberate provocation to scuttle inspectors. The Iraqis acceded to the international community's demands on the weapons inspectors. They should be held accountable; they will be held accountable. The inspectors should do their job, Iraq should comply and the UN should ensure that the inspectors are not misused as they have been in the past. Why is the U.S. government rushing for another resolution now? Because it is not interested in compliance and disarmament -- it wants war." --Institute for Public Accuracy, Sept. 24. CALIFORNIA FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: "...Whereas, a war with Iraq would require the re-direction of vital resources and funds to a destructive, senseless, and illegal goal while further strengthening an administration that has restricted the civil liberties of its citizens,... Therefore, be it resolved that the California Federation of Teachers goes on record as strenuously opposing the Bush administration's march toward war with Iraq, And be it further resolved that the California Federation of Teachers urge its members and affiliates to get involved with organizations working toward stopping the Bush administration's march toward war with Iraq. --Passed by the CFT State Council, Sept. 21. DEMOCRACY NOW, daily news show broadcast over 130 public radio and television stations: "Republican and Democratic Senate offices report 'overwhelming' opposition from their constituents to war with Iraq. This comes as Congress prepares to pass a war resolution granting President Bush sweeping powers to invade Iraq... Of the 26 offices which responded to our inquires, 22 reported an overwhelming majority -- in some cases up to 99 percent -- of constituents opposed war in Iraq; three said the response was split and just one office [supported war]... " --Press release, Sept. 27. SEN. ROBERT BYRD, D-W.Va.: "This administration, all of a sudden, wants to go to war with Iraq. The polls are dropping, the domestic situation has problems.... So all of a sudden we have this war talk, war fervor, the bugles of war, drums of war, clouds of war... Nothing would please this president more than having... a blank check handed to him." --Charleston Gazette, Sept. 21. REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, D-Ohio, leader of the congressional progressive caucus: "Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted and illegal ...The administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent or immediate threat to the United States." --Washington Times, Sept. 20. REP. JIM McDERMOTT, D-Washington: "We have a president who wants to go to war. There is no question about it... That's the point - a regime change. It's not inspectors. They don't care down at the White House about whether we have disarmament or not, they want to go to war." --Washington Times, Sept. 20. REP. BARBARA LEE, D-Calif., principle architect of H. Con. Res. 473, an alternative Congressional Resolution on Iraq introduced with 26 co-sponsors: "We do not have to go to war, we have alternatives." --Washington Times, Sept. 20. REP. RON PAUL, R-Texas: "Soon we hope to have hearings on the pending war with Iraq. I am concerned there are some questions that won't be asked - and maybe will not even be allowed to be asked. Here are some questions I would like answered by those who are urging us to start this war. -- Is it not true that those who argue that even with inspections we cannot be sure that Hussein might be hiding weapons, at the same time imply that we can be more sure that weapons exist in the absence of inspections? -- Is it not true that the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency was able to complete its yearly verification mission to Iraq just this year with Iraqi cooperation? -- Is it not true that the intelligence community has been unable to develop a case tying Iraq to global terrorism at all, much less the attacks on the United States last year? Does anyone remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and that none came from Iraq? ..." --from 35 questions posted to the web, Sept. 11. JAMES ABOUREZK, former U.S. Senator, SD: "...The reality is that the people of Iraq have still not recovered from the 1991 war. Few people in the West realize that one in every ten Iraqi children dies before his or her first birthday, the lingering result of infrastructure degradation, unclean water, and communicable disease spread in the wake of the 1991 war. One child in three suffers from chronic malnutrition..." --Institute for Public Accuracy, Sept. 20. GREEN PARTY OF THE U.S.: "...The Bush administration claims the invasion of Iraq would improve the security of citizens of the U.S., but it would do just the opposite... An attack on Iraq would be illegal. The U.S. must hold to the highest standards and abide by international law if it expects other nations to do so..." --Endorsed on Sept. 19. DAVID KRIEGER, director of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation: "A war initiated by the U.S. to oust Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq under the present circumstances, and without U.N. Security Council authorization, would be tantamount to a 'war of aggression,' an international crime for which high-ranking leaders of the Axis countries during World War II were held to account at the International Military Tribunals at Nuremberg and Tokyo." --World Editorial & International Law, Sept. 29. BOB WING, editor, War Times: "This afternoon, at least 350,000 people from all over the United Kingdom descended upon the corridors of power for a massive and peaceful...rally. As I file this report at 4 p.m., less than half the march, which commenced at 12:30 p.m., has arrived at the Hyde Park Rally. The action was the largest of its kind in the UK in 30 years." --by email, Sept. 28. Voices Carry... from Tri-Valley CAREs' October 2002 newsletter, Citizen's Watch FOR PEACE: On Sept. 19, Rep. Barbara Lee and 26 co-sponsors introduced H. Con. Res. 473. It states: "...be it resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), [t]hat the United States should work through the United Nations to seek to resolve the matter of ensuring Iraq is not developing weapons of mass destruction, through mechanisms such as the resumption of weapons inspections, negotiation, enquiry, mediation, regional arrangements, and other peaceful means." Our Rep., Ellen Tauscher, is not among the co-sponsors. See: http://thomas.loc.gov. LIFT YOUR VOICE: As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. pointed out, silence is complicity. Now is the time to speak up for peace. Here are some ideas: (1) Call your elected officials and tell them how you feel. The congressional switchboard is (202) 224-3121. The White House is (202) 456-1111. (2) Attend a rally or demonstration. There will be a national march in Washington, DC on Oct. 26, and there are many local ways and places to plug in. Call our office at (925) 443-7148 for info. (3) Order your "No War With Iraq" bumper sticker at www.commondreams.org. (4) Write a letter to the editor of your favorite newspaper. (5) Add your creative idea here! Marylia Kelley Tri-Valley CAREs (Communities Against a Radioactive Environment) 2582 Old First Street Livermore, CA USA 94551 <http://www.trivalleycares.org> - is our new web site address. Please visit us there! (925) 443-7148 - is our phone (925) 443-0177 - is our fax Working for peace, justice and a healthy environment since 1983, Tri-Valley CAREs has been a member of the nation-wide Alliance for Nuclear Accountability in the U.S. since 1989, and is a co-founding member of the Abolition 2000 global network for the elimination of nuclear weapons, the U.S. Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons and the Back From the Brink campaign to get nuclear weapons taken off hair-trigger alert.

Heavy. How 'bout listing the sastric references? Or at least the individual who said it?

Hayagriva dasa: To inspire this deep-seated change in the inner man, Jung feels that a proper teacher is needed, someone to explain religion. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru, who, by definition, is a representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-çastrair (Sri Gurv-astaka 7). The representative of God is worshipped as God, but he never says, “I am God.” Although he is worshippped as God, he is the servant of God. God Himself is always master. Caitanya Mahaprabhua requested everyone to become a guru. "Whatever you are, it doesn’t matter. Simply become a guru and deliver all these people who are in ignorance." One may say, "I am not very learned. How can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that it is not necessary to be a learned scholar, for there are many so-called learned scholars who are fools. It is only necessary to impart Krsna’s instructions, which are already there in Bhagavad-gita. Whoever explains Bhagavad-gita as it is is a guru by definition. If one is fortunate enough to approach such a guru, his life becomes successful. Hayagriva dasa: Jung points out that "our philosophy is no longer a way of life, as it was in antiquity; it has turned into an exclusively intellectual and academic affair." Srila Prabhupada: That is also our opinion. Mental speculation has no value in itself. We must be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, using all reason, assimilate the instructions given by Him. We can then follow these instructions in our daily life and do good to others by teaching Bhagavad-gita. Hayagriva dasa: He sees on the one hand an exclusively intellectual philosophy, and on the other, denominational religions with “archaic rites and conceptions," which have “become strange and unintelligible to the man of today… " Srila Prabhupada: That is because preachers of religion are simply dogmatic. They have no clear idea of God; they make only official proclamations. When one does not understand, he cannot make others understand. But there is no such vanity in Krsna consciousness, which is clear in every respect. This is the expected movement Mr. Jung wanted. Every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate human society from the gross darkness of ignorance. Hayagriva dasa: He describes the truly religious man as one "who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end." Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the natural situation. What decisions can we make? Since there is already a controller over us, how can we be absolute? Everyone should depend on the supreme controller and fully surrender to Him. Hayagriva dasa: Jung feels that modern man should ask himself, "Have I any religious experience and immediate relation to God, and hence that certainty which will keep me, as an individual, from dissolving in the crowd?" Our relationship with God ultimately assures our own individuality. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, all living entities are individuals, and God is the supreme individual. According to the Vedic version, all individuals are subordinate to Him. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha-upanisad 2.2.13). The supreme individual is one, and the subordinate are many. The supreme individual is maintaining His subordinates, just as a father maintains his family. When the children learn to enjoy their father’s property without encroaching upon one another, accepting what is allotted to them, they will attain peace. Hayagriva dasa: That ends our session on Jung. Srila Prabhupada: So far, he seems the most sensible.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung writes: “It is unfortunately only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption.” Srila Prabhupada: True, the basis of change is the individual. Now there are a few disciples individually initiated into Krsna consciousness, and if a large percentage can thus become invigorated, the face of the world will change. There is no doubt of this. Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. "His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences." Srila Prabhupada: Yes, those who seriously take to Krsna consciousness are never troubled by Marxism, this-ism, or that-ism. a Marxist may take to Krsna consciousness, but a Krsna conscious devotee would never become a Marxist. It is not possible. It is explained in Bhagavad-gita that when one knows the highest perfection of life, he cannot be misled by a third or fourth-class philosophy. Hayagriva dasa: Jung also felt that materialistic progress could be a possible enemy to the individual. "A favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside," he writes, "even that metamorphosis which external reality cannot provide, mainly, a deep-seated change of the inner man… " Srila Prabhupada: Yes, everything originates from inside, from the soul. It is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura and others that material progress is essentially an expansion of the external energy, maya, illusion. We are livng in illusion, and so-called scientists and philosophers cannot even understand God and their relationship to Him, despite their material advancement. Material advancement and knowledge are actually hindrances to the progressive march of Krsna consciousness. To live a saintly life, we minimize our necessities. We are not after luxurious living. We feel that life is meant for spiritual progress and Krsna consciousness, not for material advancement.

This thread is taken from the Philosophy series transcripts on which "Dialectic Spiritualism" is based. It is not included in the book. Perhaps they think it's too controverisal. I can see how some self-righteous American "hawks" would be upset. Hayagriva: He says, "A natural function which has existed from the beginning like the religious function cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism." Prabhupada: The thing is that these people, they do not understand what is religion. Religion you cannot avoid. That is characteristic. Just like we gave several times this example, that everything has got a particular characteristic. Just like salt, salt is never sweet, and sweet is never salt. It has got a characteristic. A chile is pungent. Similarly, living entity, we are..., what is our characteristic? Our characteristic is to render service. Either you take Communism or this "ism" or that "ism," your real characteristic to render service, that will not change. The, in the capitalist country they are asking people that "You work in the factory and work for me, and whatever I say, you do," and the same thing is being dictated by the Communist leaders. Where is the difference? There is no difference, but it is only difference of nonsensical idea. Therefore a mass of people, they have to render service, either to Mr. Lenin or Mr. Roosevelt, it doesn’t matter. He has to render service. But both the services are not being profitable to the mass of people. Therefore we suggest following the footprints of Srila Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that you serve Krsna. Service is your essential duty, but because your service is wrongly being executed, you are not happy. But if you render your service to Krsna, that is natural and you will be happy. So our Krsna conscious men, they are happy when rendering service to Krsna, or God. So individually or collectively, if every state, every individual person renders service to Krsna, then that is perfect stage of life. He has to render service to somebody, but because it is misplaced, he is never happy, but when the service is rendered to Krsna, then he will be happy. Service you have to render, without any failure, but he does not know where to render service. That is the difficulty. Communist dictating, "You, sir, render service to me," and the capitalist dictating, "Give me service, sir." But Krsna says, "No. No service to this, no service..." Sarva-dharman parityajya: [bg. 18.66] "You simply give your service to Me, then aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, you will become free from all sinful reaction of life." That is our position.

I need to read these long threads again. Shiva, what you said just above sounds perfect. But I dare say it is not the last word. We understand things by both positive and negative definition. In "This is Shiva, Still can't login?" your response was exactly the opposite. So, there are dulaistic perspectives in everything. What we don't know we can inquire about. This board is a convienent medium for that. I don't know everything, and perhaps some of my peers can offer valuable knowledge and advice. Guest, I think the topic can be responsibly discussed. I once heard that whereas sex is the basis and the highest material pleasure here, it is exactly the opposite in the spiritual world. Sex, as a process of self gratification, is least prominent in a world of spiritual values. Prabhupada has repeatedly pointed out that even hearing of Krsna's amorous pastimes and loving affairs would cleanse the heart of lust and sexual desire. If it can be discussed maturely and responsibly, there might be much to learn. Sages in the past have discussed these things, and someone might be able to convey those messages here. If people cheat others with this knowledge, what can be done? People abuse everything. People even claim to be God. Should we stop discussing God? I don't think we can offer any new insights that a resourceful cheater can manipulate. In fact, most if not all of this Vedic information is for our advancement and edification. It really can't be exploited in let's say a gross material sense such as the scientists who understand and manipulate the world. We can't challenge or threaten God. If some individual or persons cheat others with a poor fund of information, that's very lamentable. But what can be done? It can be discussed without a thought of enjoyment. After all, we're talking philosophy, not pornography.

Shiva, The question of qualified gurus, or politicians or any leader is exactly the point. The failures are there, both individually - but not all - and collectively. We should all be aware of our actions and not act blindly. Our Vedic philosophy and religious training are supposed to make us discriminate and accepting of favorable circumstances.Unfavorable circumstances should be rejected. Prabhupada described devotional life as walking a razor's edge. If you follow an unauthorized or blind leader you may be ruined in the short run and most certainly ruined in the long run when our future body is decided. But that is besides the point. I mean why judge at all? You are judging others now. It appears by telling others to suspend their judgement, you hope they take your judgement instead. And what is that bottom line... stop thinking for yourself? Your last comments are rambling, incoherent. Discriminate devotees aren't trying to create a new system.

I really didn't recognize your tip even after going there. But there it was. You sound like Paramatma sometimes.