ethos

Well Leyh, I think you speak for all of us. We could all use alot more of Prabhupada and alot less of ourselves.

Well Leyh, I think you speak for all of us. We could all use alot more of Prabhupada and alot less of ourselves.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes: "The state has taken the place of God; that is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship." Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I agree with him. Atheistic Communism has contributed to the degradation of human civilization. The communists supposedly believe in the equal distribution of wealth. According to our understanding, God is the Father, material nature the mother, and living entities the sons. The sons have a right to live at the cost of the father. The entiere universe if the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and living entities are being supported by the Supreme Father. However, we should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to us. According to Isopanisad, tena tyaktena bhunjitha (Isopanisad 1). We should be satisfied with our allocation, and not envy another or encroach upon his property. We should not envy the capitalist or the wealthy because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, everyone should be satisfied with what he receives. On the other hand, no one should exploit others. One may be born in a wealthy family, but he should not interfere with the rights of others. Whether one is rich or poor, we should be God conscious, accept God’s arrangement, and serve God to his fullest. This is the philosophy of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and it is confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We should be content with our allocations from God, and concern ourselves with advancing in Krsna consciousness. If we become envious of the rich, we will be tempted to encroach upon their allotment, and in this way we are diverted from our service to the Lord. the main point is that everyone, rich or poor, should engage in God’s service. If everyone does so, there will be real peace in the world. Hayagriva dasa: In the socialist state, the goals of religion are turned into worldly promises of bread, “the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours.” Srila Prabhupada: This is because they have no understanding of spiritual life, nor can they understand that the person within the body is eternal and spiritual. Therefore they recommend immediate sense gratification. Hayagriva dasa: Jung believed, however, that Marxism cannot possibly replace religion. "A natural function which has existed from the beginning… cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism." Srila Prabhupada: The Communists are concerned with adjusting material things that can never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. The communists do not understand what religion is. It is not possible to avoid religion. Everything has a particular characteristic. Salt is salty, sugar is sweet, and chili is hot and pungent. These are intrinsic characteristics. similarly, the living entity has an intrinsic quality. His characteristic is to render service, be a Communist, a theist, a capitalist, or whatever. In all countries, people are working and rendering serive to their respective governments––be they capitalists or Communists––and the people are not profiting. therefore, we say that if people follow the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by serving Krsna, they will be happy. In the material world, peple are rendering service, and they are not happy doing so because their respective service is actually meant for Krsna. Therefore, for the sake of happiness, people should individually and collectively render service to Krsna. When that service is misplaced, we are never happy. Both Communists and capitalists are saying, "Render service to me," but Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya (Bg. 18.66) "Just render Me service, and I will free you from all sinful reactions."

JNdas, I was looking around for a thread I saw a couple days ago in which you gave advice to someone concerning mp3's and streaming (real player) audio. I wanted to copy the info but I can't find it again. Can you point me in the right direction?

Hare Krsna! Glad to have your prescence as a moderator and Prabhupada sumpathizer on the board. I think you do a great job! Also the website is designed very nice and the board is well organized with your topic headings... well thought out! I can't imagine though how you keep your mind with everyone else's thoughts running through your head. Still, you seem capable and scholarly. My inquiry is how do devotees post pictures? Can you provide any details? Some people seem to be able to write, then post a picture and write again. What is the optimum picture format; i.e., kind, size, and dimensions. Can the text and pictures exceed the indicated limitations on the place text warning? If you need some graphic design work done, let me know. My wife is a graphic designer/ Art Director. I can't commit to redesigning your web site, nor do I think it's needed. It's really a nice effort. But something less time consuming I can help with. Respectfully,

"Auugh, I see," said the blind man. I guess that includes the bars. I'll have to practice several times before I imprint the computer protocal in my illogical brain. Thanks!

JNdas, thanks for the informative link. Lots of detailed explanations, but not the text themselves. Great stuff though! Raga, I'm on a Mac. I downloaded the 105K word document and have to wait to open it since I recently found a bug in my computer and had to rebuild the drive. Thanks!

Hayagriva dasa: Jung classifies five types of rebirth. One is metempsychosis, by which "… one’s life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences; or, from another point of view, it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations… It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not: there may only be a continuity of karma." Srila Prabhupada: A personality is always there, and bodily changes do not affect it. However, one identifies himself according to his body. When the soul, for instance, is within the body of a dog, he thinks according to that particular bodily conception. He thinks, "I am a dog, and I have my particular duty." In human society, when one is born in America, for instance, he thinks, "I am an American, and I have my duty." According to the body, the personality is minifest, but in all cases, personality is there. Hayagriva dasa: But is this personality continuous? Srila Prabhupada: Certainly the personality is continuous. At death, the same soul passes into another gross body, along with its mental and intellectual identifications. The individual acquires different types of bodies, but the person is the same. Hayagriva dasa: This would correspond to what Jung calls reincarnation, the second type of rebirth: "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality," he writes. "Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born, one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences and that these existences were one’s own, i.e., that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body." Srila Prabhupada: Not necessarily into a human body. From Srimad-Bhagavatam, we learn that Bharata Maharaja became a deer in his nxt life, and after being a deer, he became a brahmana. The soul is changing bodies just as a man changes his dress. The man is the same, although his dress may be different. "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (Bg. 2.22) When a dress is old and cannot be used anymore, one has to excahange it for another. In a sense, you purchase a new dress with the money, or karma, you have accumulated in your life. The man is the same, but his fress is supplied according to the price he can pay. According to your karma, you receive a certain type of body. Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the third type of rebirth, called resurrection, may be of two types: "It may be a carnal body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is, according to Christian doctrine, at the end of the world, the gross bodies will reassemble themselves and ascend into heaven, or descend into hell. Srila Prabhupada: And what will the person do in the meantime? Hayagriva dasa: I don’t know, obviously the material elements disperse. Srila Prabhupada: The material body is finished, but the spiritual body is always there. this type of resurrection talked about is applicable to God and His representatives, not to all. In this case, it is no a material body, but a spiritual one. When God appears, He appears in a spiritual body, and this body does not change. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that He spoke to the sun god millions of years ago, and Arjuna questioned how this could be possible. Krsna replies that although Arjuna had been present, he could not remember. Remembrance is possible only if one does not change bodies. Changing bodies means forgetting. Hayagriva dasa: Jung admits that on a higher level, the process is not material. "It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus glorificaciones, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility." Srila Prabhupada: That is the spiritual body, which never changes. According to the Mayavadi conception, the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and when He comes as a person, He accepts a material body. Those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge, who accept the Bhagavad-gita, understand that this is not the case. "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." (Bg. 9.11) Because Krsna appears like a human being, the unintelligent think that He is nothing but a human being. They have no knowledge of the spiritual body. Hayagriva dasa: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovatio, and this refers to "the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being." As an example, Jung cites the ascension of Christ into heaven. Srila Prabhupada: We say that the spiritual body never dies, and the material body is subject to destruction. Nayam hanti na hanyate (Bg. 2.19) After the material body’s destruction, the spiritual body is still there. It is neither generated nor killed. Hayagriva dasa: But aren’t there examples of a kind of ascension inot heaven? Didn't Arjuna ascend? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and Yudhisthira. There are many instances. The special instance is Krsna Himself and His associates. But we should never consider their bodies material. They didn’t go through death of any sort, although their bodies traveled to the higher universe. but it is also a fact that everyone possesses a spiritual body. Hayagriva dasa: The fifth type of rebirth is indirect, like an initiation ceremony, or the twice-born ceremony of transformation. "Through his presence at the rite, the individual participates in divine grace." Srila Prabhupada: Yes, one’s first birth is by his father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. When one takes his second birth, he comes to understand that he is not the material body. this is spiritual education. that birth of knowledge, or birth into knowlege, is called dvijah.

Ram, I agree. Yet, we cannot approach God by our own efforts and it is the institutionalized authoritative religions which give us the process. If one experiences truth and transcendental knowledge, it is but natural to propagate the truth and process of it all. I don't think anyone cares for just "opinion". It is very presumptuous to assume the "motives" of people without any overt information.

Leyh wrote: I do not dare say that I am a devotee of Krsna or Prabhupada,for I am still saturated with so much contamination... ------------ Ok, I'll say it... You're a nice devotee Leyh.

Leyh wrote: I do not dare say that I am a devotee of Krsna or Prabhupada,for I am still saturated with so much contamination... ------------ Ok, I'll say it... You're a nice devotee Leyh.

Both the books in this thread are excellent. "Forbidden Archeology" and "Darwin's Black Box" are gems at exposing the imperialistic stance of modern empirical science. The beauty of their efforts is that they do it in irrefuttable scientifc processes and terms. Concerning the "Black Box," I viewed a challenge of the "irreducible mousetrap" concept used by Michael Behe throughout his book about a year ago. This thread made me think of it. I found it again and submit it here for your inspection. The scientist is very self-righteous about his rebuttal and undoubtedly thinks he has proved his point. Old - http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/oldmousetrap.html New - http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html Is this a good example of the genius of modern science? He should market them and make a fortune. But I guess he hasn't thought of that.

JNdas, since you replied to me, I'm replying to you. Now I am speaking for myself here and I don't necessarily claim it to be true for everyone. The dyncamic aspect of choice and responsibility is a major theme of the Ritvik issue. I agree with your first three paragraphs. But as to the third, I must contend that you do associate with Krsna, or Vyasa or Prabhupada through their teachings. Hearing their words is absolute and a communication of minds. We experience this association even on the mundane level reading Plato or even some murder mystery. We begin to relate to the personalities. Krsna's physical presence is not required nor is the spiritual master's. Right? Prabhupada said "his" books would be the lawbooks for the next few thousand years. So there's a personal relationship to those books by everybody who can appreciate them. I certainly envy the person who has found a sincere relationship with a bona fide guru. I never met Prabhupada. I wish I had. I was living in ISKCON at the time he departed from this world. My experience has been with ISKCON and their "authorities," and of this institution I have alot of first hand knowledge from all levels of management... not necessarily personally, but I have to judge for myself about authorities I haven't met from secondhand evidence just like anyone. I am not wholy satisfied with an initiating guru among them. But that's just my choice. It is certainly different for others and I respect their choice. I certainly haven't met everyone in ISKCON, what to speak of around the world. Maybe someday I'll find someone I can trust my heart to. But probably not today. We certainly are responsible for our spiritual destinies to a large degree. But I don't feel like I should compromise my feelings just to be an insider. I will not accept someone who doesn't have my full faith. If I die a bhakta, that's fine with me. I don't feel I have to have an official connection or even return to Godhead in this lifetime. I'm content to progress slowly even though it may be risky. There certainly is need for blame. Modern institutions tend to sustain themselves with power and not popular opinion. They tend to discount underlings - even if they are right - and answer only to those "in the loop." I personally love much about ISKCON. They have given me meaning and purpose which I otherwise wouldn't have. I attend their temples and I also work with some of their highest authorities on projects helping to promote ISKCON. Still, knowledge is not simply "positive" and there is much to criticize and rectify within ISKCON. We should not be satisfied with mediocrity. I'm not looking just to criticize though. As in dealing with ourselves, we have to be honest about our shortcomings and faults to progress. Not everyone has the freedom you suggest. For instance, I cannot afford to move anywhere else in the world and so I'm stuck in America where a favorite pastime is to barbecue your mother at a picknic. Time and circumstances for everyone. I'll play the cards I'm dealt.

Karthik, I think both sides have good philosophy. Personally, I don't see the "flaw" you pointed out in your last paragraph. For one thing, the parampara has been broken before under circumstances much more favorable than we have now. Also, the spiritual qualifications are already there in the scriptures by the greatest spiritual authorities like Vyasa, Krsna, Narada, and many others. Now I'm not necessarily arguing as a Ritvik per se. I'm just pointing out some philosophical points. Also, consider how the "authorities" or "gurus" or whatever failed to carry out Prabhupada's orders after he left; if not individually then collectively through the GBC. These debates and issues would never have come up had the "officials" continued to set an example. But Prabhupada disciples have keen discrimination for the most part and the GBC failed - as a whole - to satisfy their peers. ISKCON is a sorry shadow of its former self. I know these are regurgitated arguements. But recently, I personally talked with some disciples who insist that everything is in their gurus books and words because they are purely representing what Prabhupada had said, etc. And in arguing this they advised me not to read Prabhupada's books. Now these are ISKCON temple devotees "preaching" here. And the people at the LA Matchless Gifts tell me people are buying and reading books from Prabhupada's disciples and not so much Prabhupada. Prabhupada spoiled us all because his example was so perfect. I don't think there'll every be another Prabhupada just like I don't think there'll be another Krsna or Vyasa. I may be wrong. But presently, I don't think anyone is qualified to "change his words" or even speak in place of him. To represent Prabhupada? Yes. But Prabhupada can't be replaced. The light of the world is gone! I personally tend to put my faith in Prabhupada and the Ritvik side though I don't agree with everything they say. I agree with the parampara system and serving the spiritual master; everything that Prabhupada taught. Yet I cannot ignore the warning signs.

Shiva, you have cookies turned on, right? Perhaps I should qualify my statement above as I should've done the first time. I think sex about and for Krsna personally is realistic, and this includes assisting Him. But for sex to go on between individuals apart from Krsna I am very dubious about. I think this happens very little. But I'm surely open to a different opinion. Now what about producing children in the spiritual world? Anybody?

Syamasundara dasa: In the male species, at any rate, the temperament is different, isn' it? There is dominance and aggression. Srila Prabhupada: There is no different temperament. We can see that the female also has the same temperament because she wants to be treated equally, just like a man. In any case, the real position is that every living entitiy is originally female, but under illusion he attempts to become a male, an enjoyer. This is called maya. Although a female by constitution, the living entity is trying to imitate the supreme male, Krsna. When we come to ur origianl consciousness, we understand that we are not the predominator but the predominated. Syamasundara dasa: Jung noticed male and female characteristics reflected in nature. For instance, a mountain may be considered male because it is strong and dominant, whereas the sea is female because it is passive and is the womb of life. Srila Prabhupada: These are all mental concoctions. They have no real scientific value. You may imagine things like this, but the real identity of these things is different. Life is not generated from the ocean; rather, everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Visnu, who lies in the causal ocean. If I am lying on this bed, and something emanates from my breathing, does this mean that something is emanating from the bed? Syamasundara dasa: But aren’t there specific male and female characteristics? Srila Prabhupada: The only male is God. Male means enjoyer, and female means enjoyed. But for God, no one is the enjoyer. Therefore He is the only male. Syamasundara dasa: Then it is false to think of anything as masculine besides God? Srila Prabhupada: Masculine is different. We speak of the masculine gender. the linga is the symbol of masculinity in the material body. In Bengali, it is said that one can tell if an animal is male or female simply by raising its tail. But these are material considerations. the real male is Krsna. Syamasundara dasa: But couldn’t you refer to the ocean as "mother ocean"? Srila Prabhupada: You may in the sense that the ocean contains so many living entities, just as the female contains a child within her womb. Or you may speak of a mountain as being male because of its strength and durability. In that sense, you may make these comparisions, but you should not think that these are the real identities of these things.

The disease is our material conditined life. It will not stop until it's spiritual. You cannot artificially force or fake higher conscious sentiments. This may work with ignorant people, but it rarely works with devotees who are more expert on these matters. But in the meantime, beware! The world is full of hypocrites who impose morals on others while they have their secret life. Prabhupada said "Discrimination is realization." To ascribe false attributes to yourself or others is a serious mistake. This reminds me of the Californian philosophy of "just feel good about yourself." You see, never mind being good. Just feel good about yourself.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning karma, Jung writes: "The crucial question is whether a man’s karma is personal or not. If it is, then the pre-ordained destiny with which a man enters life represents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity." Srila Prabhupada: Karma is always personal. Hayagriva dasa: When Buddha was asked whether karma is personal or not, he avoided answering. He said that knowing this would not contribute to liberation from the illusion of existence. Srila Prabhupada: Buddha refused to answer because he did not teach about the soul or accept the personal soul. As soon as you deny the personal aspect of the soul, there is no question of a personal karma. Buddha wanted to avoid this question. He did not want his whole philosophy dismantled.

Transient, Hare Bol! I finally went to your Moon Shadow site listed above. Thanks for the reference. I found it really sad how these scientists live in secrecy and seclusion, even to the detriment of their own families. What misplaced faith! The government turns these people into little pet rats that scurry through the shadows... and all for what? To cheat and rape the public. There are several pictures here too. Seeing the proposed pod again that weighed about 6,000 lbs. on the moon with something more than 10,000 lbs. thrust is just funny. I was about 12 when they pulled this hoax off and too young to judge the physics for myself. Now, when I see the pod and consider the fuel and effort to land and again return to space, I simply laugh. I am laughing loud and long inside. No wonder the government is so arrogant - the crap they get away with!

Yes, any more info on these "nadis"?

One of the most memorable articles I ever read was Dr. Kapoor's bhakti thesis that appeared in an early Back to Godhead Magazine. It was really a wonderful article describing all the various mystic processes, the results and position of each, and finally the superiority of bhakti as supreme. It must be 30 years or more old. Can anyone post this article so I can copy it?

I wish to reply to A review of "Origin of the Human species" concerning the "Black Box" book. I was on the CNN forums more than a year ago talking with some scientists about the problems of science in general. At one point one of them game me a link that demonsrated step by step how the "mouse trap" was reduced to only a coiled spring that would catch a mouse. Now this is really quite a proposterous proposal and I wanted to show you all an example of the bewildered intelligence of these so-called authorities through the link example. To do this I need to get back on those forums at CNN and ask about the link. But I just went to CNN and can't find my way to the discussion boards or forums. Can anyone help?

Shiva, did I say all that? I can accept that there is sex in the spiritual world. But I think not so much. I would like to pursue the idea of children resulting from sex in the spiritual world. Spiritual things and persons there are eternal and not "created". Can anyone say something about this?

Here is a related link on this board entitled What is Vedic Culture? www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=3756&page=25&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Theist, this is truly gross. I just had some milk. I think I'm gonna be sick. My wife has an Indian Auryuvedic praticioner at work who says all the chemicals put in the cow contaminate the milk... so much so that's it's not good for you. And the proof of this is how quickly the milk will turn ransid. Natural milk from wholesome cows is sweet and will last uh, indefinately(?) without refrigeration. My wife says the organic milk is about $7.50 a gal. We plan on buying it as soon as our bills are paid.