ethos

Syamasundara dasa: Plato believed that the perfect stae should be organized in such a way that men can strive for the ideal. He equates poliical activity with moral endeavor, and he says that the ruler of the state must be a wise man (philosopher king), or a group of wise men. In a perfect society, each individual functions to his best capacity according to his natural abilities. This leads to the most harmonious type of society. Srila Prabhupada: This idea is also found in Bhagavad-gita, in which Krsna says that the ideal society is a society of four varnas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra. In human society, as well as in animal society, every living being is under the influence of the modes of material nature––sattva-guna, rajo-guna, and tamo-guna––that is, goodness, passion, and ignorance. By dividing men according to these qualities, society can be perfect. If a man in the mode of ignorance assumes a philosophers’s post, havoc will result. Nor can we have a philosopher work as an ordinary laborer. There must be some scientific division in order to perfect society. According to the Vedas, the brahmanas, the most intelligent men interested in transcendental knowledge and philsophy, should be given a topmost post, and the ksatriyas, the administrators, should see that there is law and order and that everyone is doing his duty. The next section is the productive class, the vaiçyas, who are engaged in agriculture and cow protection. There are also the sudras, the common laborers, who work for the benefit of the other sections. Of course, now there is industrializaition, and large scale industry means exploitation. Such industry was unknown to Vedic civilization. Then, people lived by agriculture and cow protection. If there are healthy cows and enough milk, everyone can get grains, fruits, vegetables, and other foods. That is sufficient in itself. Unfortunately, modern civilization has taken to animal eating, and this is barbarous. This is not even human. Ideal society is a society of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, these divisions are compared to the body: the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs. All parts of the body are meant to keep the body fit.Comparatively, the head is more important than the legs. However, without the help of the legs, the body cannot properly move. therefore, there must be cooperation, and this cooperation is found in the ideal state. Nowadays, rascals, fools, and asses are bing voted in as administrators. If a person can secure a vote in some in some way or other, he is given the post of an adminsitrator, even though he may be rascal number one. So what can be done? For this reason, people cannot be happy. The ideal state functions under the direction of the brahmana. The brahmans themselves are not personally interested in political affairs or administratin because they have a higher duty. Presently, because the head is missing, the social body is a dead body. The head is very important, and our Krsna consciousness movement is attempting to create some brahmanas who can properly direct society. The administrators will be able to rule v ery nicely under the instructions of the philosophers and theologians__that is, God conscious people. A person who is theistic will never condone the opening of slaughterhouses. Because there are many rascals heading the government, animal slaughter is allowed. When Maharaja Parikisit saw the personification of Kali trying to kill a cow, he immediately drew his sword and said, “Who are Syamasundara dasa: A similar social structure was also observed by Plato. However, he advocated three divisions instead of four. the guardians were men of wisdom who ruled and governed. The warriors were courageous, and they protected the others. The artisans performed their services obediently and were motivated to work by their need to satisfy their appetites. In addition, he saw in man a threefold division of intelligence, courage, and appetite, whch correspond to the modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance possessed by the soul. Sila Prabhupada: The soul does not possess three qualities. That is a mistake. The soul is by nature pure, but due to his contact with the modes of nature, he is dressed differently. This Krsna consciousness movement aims at removing this material dres. Therefore our first instruction is, “You are not this body.”

Hayagriva dasa: In The Republic, Plato constructs an ideal state in which the leaders possess nothing of their own, neither property nor family. He felt that people should live together in a community where wives and children are held in common to guard against corruption, bribery, and nepotism in government. Elite philosophers should mate with women of high qualities in order to produce the best children for positions of responsibility. How does this correspond to the Vedic version? Srila Prabhupada: According to Vedic civilization, a man should accept a wife for putra, for sons. Putra-pinda-prayojanam. A putra, or son, should offer pinda so that after death the fatehr will be elevated if he is in an undesireable position. Marriage is for begetting good sons who will deliver one from the fire of hell. Therefore the sraddha ceremony is there because even if the father is in hell, he will be delivered. It is the son who offers the sraddha oblation, and this is his duty. Therefore, one accepts a wife for putra, a good son, not for sex enjoyment. One who utilizes his sex life in a religious way will get a good son who can deliver him. Therefore Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo ’smi bharatarsabha. “I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles.” (Bg. 7.11) Sex contrary to religious principles is sense gratification that leads us into a hellish condition. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, we should marry and beget good progeny. although my Guru Maharaja was a sannyasi brahmacari, he used to say, “If I could produce really Krsna conscious children, I would have sex a hundred times. But why should I have sex just to produce cats and dogs?” The sastras also say: “One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod.” (Bhag. 5.5.18) It is the duty of the father and mother to rescue their children from the cycle of birth and death. If one can do this, he can in turn be rescued by his putra if he happens to fall into a hellish condition.

Hayagriva dasa: Neither Socrates nor Plato ever mentions service to God, though they speak of the contemplation of God’s reality, or the supreme splendor, or good. It is always contemplation or meditation that is stressed, as in jnana-yoga. Srila Prabhupada: This is but one process of knowing God, and it may be partially helpful to know God as He is. However, when we come to know God, we understand, “He is great, and I am small.” It is the duty of the small to serve the great. That is nature’s way. Everyone is serving in one way or another, but when we realize theat we are servants and not the master, we realize our real position. It is our natural position to serve. if someone doesn’t have a family to serve, he keeps a dozen dogs and serves them. Especially in Western countries, we see that in old age, when one has no children, he keeps two or three dogs and tries to serve them. Our position as servant is always there, but when we think that we are masters, we are illusioned. The word maya means that we are serving while thinking that we are masters. Maya means “that which is not” or, “that which is not factual.” Through meditation, when we become realized, we can understand, “Oh, I am a servant. Presently I am serving maya, illusion. Now let me serve Krsna.” This is perfection. The spiritual master engages us from the very beginning in the service of God. Then we can attain perfection quickly.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning education, it is stated in the Republic: “the soul of evey man possesses the power of learning the truth and the organ to see it with. Just as one might have to turn the whole body around for the eye to see light instead of darkness. So the entire soul must be turned away from this changing world, until its eye can bear to contemplate reality and that supreme splendor which we have called the Good. Hence there may well be an art whose aim would be to affect this power of sight into the soul’s eye, which already has it, but to insure that, instead of looking in the wrong direction, it is turned the way it ought to be.” Srila Prabhupada: That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. It is certainly an art. It is a process of purifying the senses. When the senses are purified, our main objective is attained. We do not say that sensory activities are to be stopped. They are to be redirected. Presently, the eyes are seeing things material. The eyes want to see beautiful objects, and we say, “Yes, you can see the beautiful form of Krsna.” The tongue wants to taste palatable food, and we say, “Yes, you can take this Krsna prasadam, but do not eat meat or other foods you cannot offer to Krsna.” Everything is given; we simply have to purify the senses. According to Bhagavad-gita: “The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.” (Bg. 2.59)

Hayagriva dasa: For Plato, perfect happiness lies in attempting to become godly. Insofar as man is godly, he is ethical. Evil forces within man combat his efforts to attain this ultimate goal. But Plato was not a determinist; he emphasized freedom of the will, and insisted tha evil acts are due to man’s failure to meet his responsibililties. Evil does not come from God, who is all good. Srila Prabhupada: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. Both the university and the prison are government institutions, but the prison is meant for criminals, and the university for scholars. The government spends money to maintain both institutions, but we make our choice either to go to prison or the university. That is the minute independence present in every human being. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says: “I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.” (Bg. 9.29) It is not that out of envy God makes someone unhappy and someone else happy. This is not God’s business. Happiness and unhappiness are our creation. The government does not tell us to become criminals, but it is our fault if we become criminals and suffer. Of course, God is ultimately responsible. God gives us suffering or happiness, but we create the situation which is made into fact by the potency of God.

Hayagriva dasa: Plato perceives that every object in the universe is made with some purpose, and its ideal goal is to move toward the ideal in which its archetype or essence resides. According to the Vedic version, Krsna is the all-attractive object of the universe; therefore all things must be m,oving toward Him. How is it that the individual soul apparently turns from Krsna to participate in the world of birth and death? Srila Prabhupada: That is due to maya, illusion. He should not have deviated, but due to the influence of maya, he is deviating and consequently suffering. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekaà (Bg. 18.66). “Stop this material plan making, surrender unto me, and do what I say. Then you will be happy.” This is very practical. According to Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are now forgetful of their relationship with God. They have taken on these material bodies because they have a desire to imitate God. They cannot be God, but simply imitations. A woman may dress like a man, but she cannot become a man despite her dress. The living entity, being part and parcel of God, may believe that he is just like God, the supreme enjoyer, and he may think, “I shall enjoy myself.” However, because he is not the actual enjoyer, he is given a false platform for enjoying. That platform is the material world. On this false platform, the individual soul experiences frustration. It cannot be said that this frustration is one step forward towards his real life. If one is actually intelligent, he thinks, “Why am I being frustrated? What is real perfection?” This is the beginning of the Vedanta-sutra: athato brahma jijæasa. When he becomes frustrated with the material world, the living entity asks, “What is Brahman?” For instance, Sanatana Gosvami was a finance minister, but when he became frustrated, he approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Our real life begins when we become frustrated with material existence and approach a real spiritual master. If we do not do this, we will certainly be frustrated in whatever we attempt in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam says: “As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmatmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear, and as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body.” (Bhag. 5.5.5) In ignorance, the living entity tries to approach the ideal life, but he is ultimately defeated. When he understands what he is, he knows, “I am not matter; I am spirit.” When he understands this, he begins to make spiritual inquiries, and by this, he can again return home, back to Godhead.

Hayagriva dasa: Later, in the Republic, in the allegory of the cave mentioned before, Socrates states that in the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with greaty difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. he considers this form to be the cause of whatever is right and good. He states that without having had a vision of this form, one cannot act with wisdom, neither in his own life, nor in matters of state. Here again, form is mentioned, but not personality. Srila Prabhupada: That is contradictory. As soon as we understand that there are instructions from God, we must understand that there is form, and when we understand that there is form, we must understand that there is personality. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna: “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (Bg. 2.12) This means that in the past, present, and future, Krsna, Arjuna, and all other living entities exist as personalitites and have form. There is no question of formlessness. Krsna never said that in the past we were formless and that only in the present we have form. Rather, He condemns the impersonal version that says when God takes on form, that form is illusion, maya. “Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, the do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.” (Bg. 7.24) In this way, the impersonalitst who claim that God is ultimately formless are condemned as abuddhayah, unintelligent. When one maintains that God accepts a body composed of maya, he is called a Mayavadi.

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So far spiritual life is concerned, it does not depend on the material brain substance. It is different thing. It is spiritual platform. It has nothing to do with this bodily construction. You must remember. We don’t make any distinction that a man can be better Krsna consciousness than woman. No. A woman can be better Krsna consciousness because they are very simple. They can accept any religious system. Generally the women, they accept it because they are very simple. They have no crooked mind. Sometimes they are exploited therefore. So in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, although in the material... Just like the bodily construction of man is different from woman, similarly, the brain substance may be also different, but that does not disqualify any woman for spiritual advancement in Krsna consciousness. (Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture 1.2.6, Montreal, 3 Aug 68) Woman, they are generally equipped with the qualities of passion and ignorance. And men also may be, but man can be elevated to the platform of goodness. Woman cannot be. Woman cannot be. Therefore if the husband is nice and the woman follows, woman becomes faithful and chaste to the husband, then their both life becomes successful. There are three qualities of nature: sattva, rajas, tamas. So rajas, tamas generally, that is the quality of woman. And man can become to the platform of goodness. Therefore initiation, brahminical symbolic representation is given to the man, not to the woman. This is the theory. Therefore the combination should be that the husband should be first-class devotee, Krsna conscious, and woman should be, woman should be devoted to the husband, faithful, so that she would help the husband to make progress in Krsna consciousness. Then their both life is successful. Otherwise, if the husband simply becomes captivated by the charming beauty of woman and engages himself in the sex life, then his life is lost, and the woman, they are less intelligent, unless they are guided by proper husband, her life is also lost. So those who are not demigods... Here it is said, apayayat suran. Sura-asura. Sura, those who are not developed to Krsna consciousness, they are asura. So every husband should be a sura. Sura means devotee. And every woman should be religious. Religious means to become chaste, faithful to the husband. And the husband should become a devotee. Then both of them will make progress in Krsna consciousness and that is the perfection of life. (Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture 1.3.17, Los Angeles, 22 Sept 72) Su-medhasah, this Sanskrit word, means intelligent persons. Medhas. Medhas means brain substance, one who has got very good brain substance. The brain substance... According to psychology, there is difference of brain substance. Not the brain substance equally, of equal weight, in every man’s brain. You know, you are all educated students, psychology students. In our boyhood when we were a student in psychology class, Dr. Urquhart explained this brain substance. The man has got the highest brain substance—not all—up to sixty-four ounce. And woman has got the highest up to thirty-six or thirty-four. Of course, we are not discussing that point. Our movement is a spiritual movement, Krsna consciousness. That is beyond brain. Indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah, manasas tu para buddhir [bg. 3.42]. So there are different platforms and status of consciousness. Bodily consciousness means sensual consciousness. Above that, there is mental consciousness, speculative, philosophical, poetic. Above that, intellectual consciousness. And Krsna consciousness—above intellectual consciousness. (Harvard University Lecture, 24 Dec 1969, Boston) The training was that he was training to become a brahmana, samo, dama, but the progress became checked on account of being attached to a woman. Therefore according to Vedic civilization, the woman is accepted as hindrance to spiritual advancement. The whole basic civilization is how to avoid... Woman... You do not think that only woman is woman. The man is also woman. Don’t think that the woman is condemned; man is not. Woman means enjoyed, and man means enjoyer. So this feeling, this feeling is condemned. If I see one woman for enjoyment, so I am man. And if woman also sees another man for enjoyment, she is also man. Woman means enjoyed and man means enjoyer. So anyone who has got feeling of enjoyment, he is considered to be man. So here both sexes meant for... Everyone is planning, “How I shall enjoy?” Therefore he is purusa, artificially. Otherwise, originally, we are all prakrti, jiva, either woman or man. This is outward dress. (Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture 6,1.64-65, Vrndavana, 1 Sept 65)

Hayagriva dasa: For Plato, perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is correct. everything material has some defect. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna: “Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault.” (Bg. 18.48) If we execute our prescribed duties according to the sastras, we can still attain perfection, even though there are some defects. Through Krsna consciousness, everyone can become perfect, regardless of his situation. A brahmana may give knowledge, a ksatriya may give protection, a vaisya may provide food, and a sudra may provide general help for everyone. Although there may be imperfections in the execution of our duty, perfection can be attained by following the injunctions.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato conceives of God as the essence of perfection, the supreme ideal, and the supreme good. Srila Prabhupada: According to Parasara Muni, perfection belongs to Him who has complete knowledge, wealth, beauty, power, fame, and renunciation. God has everything in full, and there is no vacancy in Him. Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s philosophy points to a personal conception, but there is no idea of what God looks like, or what He says. Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic literature not only present this person but describe Him. “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, whose blossoming eyes are like lotus petals, whose head is bedecked with peacock’s feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids.” (Brahma-saàhita 5.30) In this way, Lord Krsna’s form and activities are concretely described. In the Vedas, everything is factual. Plato thinks that the creator may be a person, but he does not know what kind of person He is, nor does he know of His engagements. HayagrÆva d¢sa: Later, in the Republic, in the allegory of the cave mentioned before, Socrates states that in the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with greaty difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. he considers this form to be the cause of whatever is right and good. He states that without having had a vision of this form, one cannot act with wisdom, neither in his own life, nor in matters of state. Here again, form is mentioned, but not personality. Srila Prabhupada: That is contradictory. As soon as we understand that there are instructions from God, we must understand that there is form, and when we understand that there is form, we must understand that there is personality. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna: “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (Bg. 2.12) This means that in the past, present, and future, Krsna, Arjuna, and all other living entities exist as personalitites and have form. there is no question of formlessness. Krsna never said that in the past we were formless and that only in the present we have form. Rather, He condemns the impersonal version that says when God takes on form, that form is illusion, maya. “Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, which is changeless and supreme.” (Bg. 7.24) In this way, the impersonalitst who claim that God is ultimately formless are condemned as abuddhayah, unintelligent. When one maintains that God accepts a body composed of maya, he is called a Mayavadi.

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered material nature, or prakrti, to have always been existing in a chaotic state. God takes matter and fashions it into form in order to create the universe. Srila Prabhupada: More precisely, Krsna sets prakrti in motion, and the products are manifesting automatically. A printer may set up a press in such a way that many magazines can be printed completely. The seeds, or bijams, are created by God in such a way that creations are manifest automatically. These seeds are God’s machines. he has created these seeds only. The seed of the entire universe is coming from Him. Yasyaika-nisvasita kalam athavalambya (Brahma-samhita 5.48). When God breathes, millions of seeds of universes emanate from Hs body, and we call ths creation. When He inhales, they return, and we call this annihilation. Things are manifest or unmanifest depending on His breathing. When He exhales, everything is manifest. When He inhales, everything is finished. Only a fool thinks that God’s breathing and our breathing are the same. Bhagavad-gita says: “Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.” (Bg. 9.11) Even Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were bewildered to see that this cowherd boy is God Himself. Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s word for God is demiurge, which in Greek means master builder, architect, or hand-worker. Srila Prabhupada: In Sanskrit this is called srsöi-karta, but this conception is secondary. Lord Brahma is and Brahma is srsti-karta, and Brahma is inspired by Krsna. The original master, Krsna, is not srsti-karta becasue he does not do anything directly. As stated in the Vedas: sva-bhaviki jnana-balakriya ca. “His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence.” (Svetasvatara-upanisad 6.8) As soon as He wants something done, it is actualized. Sa aiksata––sa imal lokan asrjata (Aitareya-upanisad 1.1.1-2) When he glances at matter, creation takes place immediately. His energy is so perfect that simply by willing and glancing, everything is immediately and perfectly created. For instance, this flower is Krsna’s energy. It requires a highely talented brain to color it and adjust it in such a way, but it is growing automatically. This is the way of Krsna’s energy. This flower is a very small thing, but the entire cosmic manifestation is created on the same basis. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Krsna has multi-energies, fine and subtle. As soon as Krsna thinks, “This thing must come into being immediately,” that thing is prepared by so many subtle energies. Krsna doesn’t have to do anything with His hands. He simply desires something, and it is created. Lord Brahma is supposed to be the direct creator of the universe, but there are millions of universs and millions of Brahmas. There are also millions of suns and other luminaries. There is no limit, and all this material creation is but the energy of Krsna.

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered the material world restricted to limitations of time and space, but the spiritual world transcends both. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Hayagriva dasa: He also believed that time began with the creation of the material world. How does this relate to the Vedic version? Srila Prabhupada: Time is eternal. The past, present, and future are three features of time, but they are relative. Your past, present, and future are not the same as those of Brahma. Brahma lives for millions of years, and within this span we may have many pasts, presents, and futures. these are relative according to the person, but time itself is eternal. Is that clear? Past, present, and future are relative according to the body, but time has no past, present, or future.

I'm starting #4 here because my slow modem takes awhile to load long threads. This way, it's easier on the viewers and the server. I am transcribing "Dialectic Spiritualism" for my own purposes. Below you will find highlights from that book. Check back for additions. I would prefer that no replies be made. It will be a long enough thread without replies. These threads are simply provided for the benefit of those who might benefit from them.

Syamasundara dasa: Socrates deliberately took poison in order not to contradict himself. The government told him that if he retracted his statements, he could live, but he preferred to be a martyr for his own beliefs. Srila Prabhupada: It is good that he stuck to his point, yet regrettable that he lived in a society that would not permit him to think independently. Therefore he was obliged to die. In that sense, Socrates was a great soul. Although he appeared in a society that was not very advanced, he was nonetheless a great philosopher. Hayagriva dasa: Socrates considered the contemplation of beauty to be an activity of the wise man, but relative beauty in the mundane world is simply a reflection of absolute beauty. In the same way, good in the relative world is but a reflection of the absolute good. In any case, absolute good or beauty is transcendental. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is also our view. Beauty, knowledge, strength, wealth, fame, and renunciation are all transcendental. In this material world, everything is a perverted reflection. A foolish animal may run after a mirage in the desert, thinking it water, but a sane man knows better. Although there is no water in the desert, we cannot conclude that there is not water at all. Water certainly exists. Similarly, real happiness, beauty, knowledge, strength, and the other opulences exist in the spiritual world, but here they are only reflected pervertedly. Generally, people have no information of the spiritual world; therefore they have to imagine something spiritual. They do not understand that this material world is imaginary. “One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” (Bg. 4.9) Although people are reading Bhagavad-gita, they cannot understand this very simple point. After giving up the material body, the devotee goes to Krsna. Of course, the Christians say that after death, one goes to heaven or hell, and to some extent that is a fact. If we understand Krsna in this lifetime, we can go to Krsna’s eternal abode; otherwise, we remain in this material world to undergo the same cycle of birth and death. That is hell. Hayagriva dasa: At the conclusion of The Republic, Socrates gives the analogy of humanity living within a dark cave. The self-realized teacher has seen the light outside the cave. When he returns to the cave to inform the people that they are in darkness, many consider him crazy for speaking of such a thing as the light outside. Thus the teacher often puts himself in a very dangerous position. Srila Prabhupada: That is a fact. We often give the example of a frog within a dark well, thinking that his well is everything. When he is informed that there is an Atlantic Ocean, he cannot conceive of such a great quantity of water. Those who are in the dark well of material existence are surprised to hear that there is light outside. Everyone in the material world is suffering in the dark well of material existence, and we are throwing down this rope called Krsna consciousness. If people do not catch hold, what can we do? If you are fortunate, you can capture the Lord with the help of the teacher, but it is up to you to catch hold of the rope. Everyone is trying to get out of the misery of material existence. Therefore Krsna says: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.” (Bg. 18.66) Still, due to obstinance, people refuse, or do not believe Him. The Vedas also tell us, “Don’t remain in the dark well. Come out into the light.” Unfortunately, people want to become perfect and yet remain in the dark well. This material universe is by nature dark, and therefore Krsna has supplied the sun and moon for light. Yet there is Krsna’s kingdom, which is different, as Krsna Himself tells us in Bhagavad-gita: “That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never return to this material world.” (Bg. 15.6) In Krsna’s kingdom there is no need for sun, moon, or electricity. His kingdom is all effulgent. In the darkness of this material world, the only happiness is in sleep and sex. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: “Those persons who are materially engrossed, being blind to the knowledge of ultimate truth, are interested in hearing about many different subjects, O Emperor. The lifetime of such an envious householders is passed at night either in sleeping or in sex indulgence, and in the day either making money or maintaining family members.” (Bhag. 2.1.2-3) Materialists spend much time reading newspapers, novels, and magazines. They have many forms of engagement because they are ignorant of self-realization. They think that life simply means living in a family surrounded by their wife, children, and friends. They work hard during the day for money, racing their cars at breakneck speed, and at night they either sleep or enjoy sex. This is just like the life of a hog constantly searching for stool. Yet all of this is taking place in the name of civilization. This kind of hoggish civilization is condemned in the Vedic literatures. Krsna advises us to produce grains, eat fruits, begetables, drink milk, and cultivate Krsna consciousness. In this way, we can become happy. Hayagriva dasa: Socrates speaks of everyone sitting in the cave, watching a kind of cinema composed of imitation forms. Srila Prabhupada: This means that people are in darkness, and everything is seen in darkness is not clear. Therefore the Vedic version is: “Don’t remain in darkness. Come to the light.” The light is the guru. “I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him.” (Sri Guru Pranama)

Syamasundara dasa: Socrates defines right as that which is beneficial to others, and wrong as that which does harm to others. Srila Prabhupada: That is a general definition, but we should know what is beneficial for others. Krsna consciousness is beneficial, and anything else is not beneficial. Syamasundara dasa: For instance, he states that stealing, lying, cheating, hating, and other evils, are absolutely bad. Yet if there is a necessity to cheat or lie in order to serve Krsna, would that be bad? Srila Prabhupada: Cheating and lying are not necessary. By cheating, we cannot serve Krsna. that is not the principle. However, if Krsna directly orders us to cheat, that is a different matter. But we cannot create that order. We cannot say, “Because I am Krsna conscious, it is all right for me to cheat.” No. However, once Krsna asked Yudhisthira to go tell Dronacarya that hs son was dead, although his son was not. This was a kind of cheating, but because Krsna directly directly ordered it, it was all right. Orders from Krsna are transcendental to everything––morality and immorality. In Krsna consciousness, there is neither morality nor immorality. There is simply good.

Syamasundara dasa: But can leading a life that is honest, or based on doing good to others, lead us to ultimate happiness? Srila Prabhupada: Unless we are Krsna conscious, there is no meaning to honesty and morality. They are artificial. People are always saying, “This is mine.” But our accepting proprietorship is actually immoral because nothing belongs to us. Isavasyam idam sarvam ( Isopanisad 1). Everything belongs to Krsna. We cannot say, “This table is mine. This wife is mine. This house is mine.” It is immoral to claim another’s property as our own.

Syamasundara dasa: By virtue of his intelligence, Socrates could keep his passions controlled, but most people do not have such intellectual strength. They are not able to control themselves rationally and act properly. How does Krsna consciousness help in this endeavor? Srila Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness purifies the intelligence, the mind, and the senses. Since everything is purified, there is no chance in being employed in anything but Krsna consciousness. Anyone can do this under the proper guidance, whereas not everyone can do as Socrates did. The common man does not have sufficient intelligence to control himself without spiritual exercise. Yet, despite his intelligence, Socrates had no clear conception of God. In Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna tells Sri Krsna: “You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth, and the eternal Divine Person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty.” (Bg. 10.12) The word pavitraà means “the purest.” This includes all morality. Acting in Krsna consciousness is the best morality, and this is supported in Bhagavad-gita: “Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.” (Bg. 9.30) Even if a person is considered immoral from the mundance point of view, he should be regarded as moral if he acts on the platform of Krsna consciousness. Sometimes a person in Krsna consciousness may appear to act immorally. For instance, in the dead of night, the young cowherd girls of Vrndavana left their husbands and fathers to go to the forest to see Krsna. From the materialistic point of view, this is immoral, but becasue their actions were connected with Krsna, they are considered highly moral. By nature, Arjuna was not inclined to kill, even at the risk of his kingdom, but Krsna wanted him to fight; therefore Arjuna entered the battle and acted morally, even though he was killing people. Syamasundara dasa: Then you are saying that morality is absolute as long as it is in relation with Krsna? Srila Prabhupada: If Krsna or His representative says, “Do this,” that act is moral. We cannot create morality. We cannot say, “I am a devotee of Krsna; therefore I can kill.” No. We cannot do anything unless we receive a direct order.

The Path of Bhakti by O.B.L. Kapoor, Ph.D. O.B.L. Kapoor, Ph.D., has served as Head of the Philosophy Department and Dean of the Faculty of Arts at B. R. College In Agra, India; as Principal and Head of the Philosophy Department at K. N. Government Postgraduate College in Varanasi: as Principal of the Government College in Rampur, and as a member of the Executive Council of Agra University. He has been residing in Vrndavana since his retirement in 1967 and is engaged at present in writing books and articles concerning the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His disciples. He was initialed in 1932 by His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, by whose order Back to Godhead was first established in 1944. BHAKTI cannot, strictly speaking, be defined, because it is transcendental. Sandilya, however, defines it as paranuraktir isvare, which means exclusive and intense loving attachment to the Lord. Bhakti is recognized in Srimad-Bhagavatam as parama-dharma, or the highest and most satisfying function of the soul. In the Skanda Purana (2.9.40) Sri Krsna says in reply to a question by Uddhava, labho mad-bhaktir uttamah: "Devotion to Me is the highest end." Narada describes bhakti as indescribable love (anir-vacaniyam prema svarupam) and the grandest and most sublime of all human experiences. Even the writer of Advaita-siddhi, Madhusudana Sarasvati, to whom nonduality is the highest truth, regards bhakti as one hundred times superior to liberation. He says that one realizes at the dawn of true knowledge that duality is even more beautiful than nonduality. Sri Caitanya recognizes bhakti as the only way to attain the Lord. He cites in this connection the following verses from Srimad-Bhagavatam (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 20.137): na sadhayati mam yogo na sankhyam dharma uddhava na svadhyayas tapas tyago yatha bhaktir mamorjita "It is not possible to attain Me through jnana, yoga, renunciation, penance, study of the scriptures or the performance of duty in the same manner in which one may attain Me through bhakti." (Bhag. 11.14.20) bhaktyaham ekaya grahyah sraddhayatma priyah satam "I can be attained only through bhakti and not through any other means." (Bhag. 11.14.21) Sri Caitanya deprecates karma (the way of action), jnana (the way of knowledge) and yoga (the eightfold way of mysticism) because they do not lead to the same goal as bhakti. Jnana, which consists of contemplation and discrimination, leads to realization of nirvisesa-brahman (the impersonal Absolute) and the soul's immersion in it. Yoga with its eight ancillaries consists of restraint (yama), culture (niyama), posture (asana), breath control (pranayama), withdrawal of the senses (pratyahara), attention (dharana), meditation [dhyana), and concentration [samadhi). It leads to the realization of Paramatma (the Supersoul within the heart). Karma, which consists of the performance of compulsory (nitya) and occasional [naimittika] duties as enjoined by the scriptures, leads to the attainment of heaven for as long as the effect of the living entity's good deeds endures. But none of them leads to the attainment of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan. Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti proves the superiority of bhakti over karma, jnana and yoga by anvaya-vyatireka, that is, by the methods of agreement in presence and agreement in absence. Realization of the supreme end as Bhagavan is present where bhakti is present and absent where bhakti is absent. Jnana and yoga do not lead to the realization of Bhagavan but only to the realization of the partial aspects of Bhagavan, accompanied by mukti (liberation),** whereas karma as such leads neither to Bhagavan nor to mukti. Karma leads to mukti only indirectly by preparing the way for it. But not all kinds of action are preparatory to release. Only actions performed without attachment prepare the ground for ultimate release by producing a tranquil state of mind suitable for inquiry about the real nature of the self. Therefore Bhagavad-gita advises the resignation of all acts to Bhagavan, the Supreme Person. But it may be asked, if only disinterested actions are useful for liberation, how shall we explain the Vedic injunctions regarding the performance of ceremonial rites apparently aimed at worldly enjoyment? The answer is that the real object of Vedic injunctions is not to produce attachment to worldly objects but gradually to wean us out of them by permitting only restricted use of them and by offering counter-attractions. The ceremonial rites enjoined in the Vedas are therefore called paroksa-kriya, and the satras expounding the performance of karma are called paroksa-vada. Jnana and yoga are not meant for all persons and all times and are not possible under all circumstances. Yoga is impossible for a man who has not acquired complete control over his mind. It can be practiced only in a sacred place and in a special posture. It enjoins the performance of exercises that are not within the capacity of everyone, especially in the present age of Kali. Jnana is impossible for persons who have not developed aversion to the objects of the senses and who do not possess philosophical acumen, self-restraint and mental tranquility. But bhakti is possible for everyone-even for the lowliest and most sinful and can be practiced at all times and under all circumstances. Prahlada is said to have practiced bhakti in his mother's womb, Dhruva in childhood, Ambarisa in youth, Yayati in old age, Ajamila at the time of death, and Citraketu in heaven after death. Even those consigned to hell or those who have attained liberation after bondage have practiced, devotion and attained the supreme end. Bhakti is meant alike for those who desire liberation and those who have attained it. The paths of jnana and yoga are not eternal. They cease as soon as one attains the goal. But bhakti is the eternal and supreme function of the soul (parama-dharma), It is both the means and the end. Bhakti is independent (nirapeksa) of jnana, yoga arid karma, but jnana, yoga and karma are dependent on bhakti (bhakti-sapeksa). They cannot lead to liberation or bliss without the aid of bhakti (Cc. Madhya 22.17). Yoga cannot even begin without bhakti, because yoga implies faith in Bhagavan, the Supreme Godhead, whom the yogi aims to realize in His partial aspect as Paramatma. No matter how long the yogi performs the yogic exercises and practices austerities, all his efforts will be useless if he lacks in bhakti. But if he is sincerely devoted to Bhagavan and perceives Him in everything, realization, as the Gita says, will be lasting. Because Paramatma is savisesa, or qualified, and we cannot realize Him through yoga without bhakti, yoga is sometimes regarded as a kind of bhakti and is styled as yoga-misra-bhakti (bhakti mixed with yoga) or santa-bhakti. The necessity of bhakti for jnana is recognized even by Sankara, who says in his commentary on the Gita that jnana-nistha, or fidelity to knowledge, which liberation is impossible without, is itself the result of arcana-bhakti, or bhakti consisting of the ceremonial worship of the Deities. In his commentary on Brahma-sutra, he says that although liberation is the result of higher knowledge (vidya), bhakti prepares the ground for higher knowledge by bringing the grace of God. The realization of nirvisesa-brahman through jnana is also not permanent without bhakti. Sri Caitanya speaks of two kinds of persons who follow the path of jnana: those who do not have faith in Bhagavan and who seek to realize nirvisesa-brahman independently, and those who have faith in Him but desire to attain mukti. The former attain liberation and immersion in Brahman after a great deal of effort. The latter attain the state of immersion in Brahman more easily by the grace of Bhagavan. Bhagavan lets them enjoy this state for some time, but ultimately He lifts them to His own abode so that they may enjoy contiguity with Him, which entails much higher pleasure than immersion in Brahman. This is natural because bhakti, which conditions their jnana, is, after all, a potency of Bhagavan Himself. There is no fruit of karma, jnana or yoga that cannot be attained by bhakti without the aid of any other means. Mukti, the ultimate end of jnana, which the jnani attains after long and arduous discipline, comes to the devotee of itself as a necessary accompaniment of bhakti (Cc. Madhya 22.21). Jnana and vairagya (renunciation) are themselves natural concomitants of bhakti. Since Brahman is only a partial aspect of Bhagavan, the jnani's knowledge of Brahman is only a part of the knowledge of Bhagavan that the bhakta attains through devotion. Vairagya, which is a forced affair in jnana, is a natural consequence of exclusive devotion to Bhagavan. The more intense the love for Bhagavan, the less the attachment to the objects of the world. The desire for worldly enjoyment, which is difficult to subdue and which results in many complexes if suppressed, automatically becomes weak as the desire for loving service to Bhagavan becomes strong, and ultimately it disappears. Thus jnana and vairagya as independent means of realization are redundant to bhakti. Similarly, the tranquil state of mind (citta-vrtti-nirodha), which yoga tries to reach through its eightfold path (astanga), and the asamprajnata-samadhi, the soul's realization of its real nature as the infinitesimal part of divine consciousness (cit-kana), to which yoga ultimately leads, come to the devotee as a natural result of bhakti. The superiority of bhakti over the other paths of realization is thus apparent. Those who prefer jnana to bhakti are therefore likened to people who run after the chaff and disregard the grain. The Gita (6.46-47) states unequivocally that yoga is superior to jnana and karma, and that bhakti is superior to them all. Jnana, yoga and karma, however, must not be underrated. They are useful as providing alternative ways to realize bliss for people who are not by nature and temperament inclined towards bhakti. They are also useful as aids to bhakti inasmuch as they are free from all desires for worldly enjoyment. But since they aim at mukti or a certain blissful state of self, they are not wholly disinterested or selfless in their approach (Cc. Madhya 19.149). Therefore they may serve as aids to bhakti only in the earlier stages, but must be given up later for the sake of suddha-bhakti, or pure devotion, which is devotion without any selfish desire and without any cause (ahaituki). But even in the earlier stages, jnana, karma and vairagya cannot be regarded as essential parts of bhakti. Other virtues, like continence, kindness and cleanliness, also cannot be treated as parts of bhakti, although they are its natural concomitants (Cc. Madhya 22.145). Rupa Gosvami defines uttama-bhakti, or the highest devotion, as harmonious pursuit of Krsna (anukulyena krsnanusilana) that is unenveloped by jnana and karma (jnana-karmady-anavrtam) and uninterrupted by the desire for anything. The pursuit is not harmonious if the devotee harbors in his heart any desire other than the desire to serve Krsna. Like the Kantian doctrine of the Categorical Imperative of Duty, the doctrine of bhakti implies the Categorical Imperative of Service to Krsna. The devotee serves Krsna for the pleasure of Krsna and not for anything else. But unlike the Kantian Imperative, which is dry and exacting and is an imposition from without, the Categorical Imperative of Service to Krsna is the natural function of the soul and is therefore pleasant and satisfying in itself. Though the devotee serves Krsna for the pleasure of Krsna, pleasure comes to him automatically. Such is the very nature of bhakti. But if the devotee's attitude towards service is tainted in the slightest degree by a concealed desire for his own pleasure, he is deprived, to that extent, of the supreme delight that comes from pure bhakti. Even the pleasure that automatically comes to the devotee from an act of service is condemned by a true devotee if it in any manner obstructs his service. It is regrettable that the idea of service is not properly understood and appreciated by those who have difficulty reconciling it with their egoism. They think that the path of bhakti is meant exclusively for persons who are intellectually weak and temperamentally submissive. They cannot understand that in the spiritual world, where love reigns supreme, to serve is to love and to love is to rule. In love, self-sacrifice is self-realization, and self-effacement is self-fulfillment. In love there is reciprocity. Each member of the loving relation depends on the other; each feels deficient without the other. Each wants to draw close to the other and to win the other by love and service. The Lord, being the partner in the loving relation of bhakti, wants to realize Himself more fully through the loving service of His devotees. He derives greater pleasure from being controlled by His devotees than presiding over them. But though pure bhakti has no place for jnana, karma and vairagya as such, they are necessarily implied within it. Pure bhakti as directed to Bhagavan presupposes a certain knowledge of the object of devotion, His form, His attributes and the relationship between Him and the rest of the world. Caitanya-caritamrta warns against any indifference towards knowledge of this kind, which is necessary for firm faith in Krsna and exclusive devotion to Him (Cc. Adi 2.117). Bhakti also implies acts like hearing the praises of the Lord (sravana) and chanting His name or uttering His praises [kirtana). It implies vairagya, not in the sense of renouncing the objects of the world, but in dedicating them to the service of Krsna. It does not imply completely eradicating cravings and impulses, but completely transforming or purifying them under the subordination of the central impulse of service to Krsna. Bhakti resolves the natural conflict between life and spirit not by denying life but by making it conform to spirit. The infusion of spirit into life changes the very character of our instincts. The instincts are nature's urges. The infusion of spirit turns them into spiritual urges. The manifestations of natural urges are gross and painful, whereas the manifestations of spiritual urges are fine and delightful. Caitanyism thus introduces a new outlook on life. It promises a new joy by rejuvenating and reforming life on a spiritual pattern. Bhakti is not inconsistent with either bhoga (enjoyment), vairagya (indifference to the objects of the world) or mukti (liberation), but neither bhoga, nor vairagya, nor mukti is the end of bhakti or a part of it (Cc. Madhya 22.145).** True vairagya is that in which worldly objects are enjoyed without attachment and with the ultimate aim of realizing Krsna. Describing the qualification necessary for bhakti, Rupa Gosvami says that only those persons are fit for bhakti who have faith in Krsna (jata-sraddha) and who are neither too attached (natisakta) nor too indifferent (na nirvinna) to the world. Krsna says to Uddhava, "Jnana and vairagya as such do not promote the spiritual welfare of persons sincerely devoted to Me." But jnana, karma and yoga as directed to Bhagavan not only are useful but are the very channels through which bhakti functions, for bhakti works on our entire personality. It takes different shapes in knowledge, devotion and service. "In knowledge it takes the force of divine curiosity. In devotion it is the integrating force." And in service it is the will taking the shape of a cosmic force and fulfilling the divine ends in creation. Jnana and karma, therefore, cannot be treated in isolation from devotion. Devotion presupposes a certain knowledge of the object of devotion. This is indicated by the very nature of the hladini sakti (the pleasure potency of God), which includes the samvit-sakti, or the potency that is the seat of knowledge. But as an integrating force, devotion brings us closer to the object of devotion and leads to greater intimacy with it. Greater intimacy results in higher knowledge, which again is followed by active expression in love and service. The knowledge of the devotee is not like the abstract and passive knowledge that makes the monist stand as a witness or an independent onlooker to the movement of life. "To him [the devotee] knowledge and life are eternally associated. To know is to act. Every fresh acquisition of knowledge makes the movement of life more graceful, for it reveals the love that is at the heart of existence; and the two axes of love are knowledge and service." The path of realization is but one, and that is the integral path of bhakti. Sri Caitanya regards it as the real teaching of the scriptures, the essence of the Vedas (Caitanya-bhagavata Madhya 1.148, 4.33). If people speak of many paths of realization, they do so because maya clouds their intelligence. The intelligence of different persons is differently conditioned by the three modes of material nature. Therefore, they interpret the Vedas differently and speak of the paths of realization as more than one. It is not possible to look at jnana, karma and bhakti as means of realization in their proper perspective without reference to the nature of Bhagavan (the Supreme Lord) and jiva (the subordinate living being) and the relationship between them. Jiva is only an infinitesimal part of Bhagavan who has strayed away from Him under the influence of maya (illusion). The jiva's own power is limited, whereas the power of maya, as a potency of Bhagavan, is unlimited. The jiva therefore cannot cross the bounds of maya without the help of Bhagavan. Jnana, karma and yoga, in their abstract form, which involve independent efforts by the living being, are of no avail. The very nature of jiva as an independent being precludes him from realizing the Perfect by his own effort. The only course open to him is the way of bhakti. Sri Krsna Himself says, "It is difficult, indeed, to overcome My maya independently of Me. Only those sincerely devoted to Me can overcome it." (Bg. 7.14) Only jnana that proceeds from the higher intelligence Sri Krsna grants to one sincerely devoted to Him, or jnana that is a product of bhakti, the pleasure potency (hladini sakti) of Bhagavan, can dispel the clouds of ignorance and enable the jiva to attain Bhagavan. Jnana based on his own limited understanding cannot do this (Bg. 10.10-11). Bhakti is a spiritually gravitational force that takes us to the center. It is a force that works at two ends. In our own hearts it roots out all egoistic impulses that carry us away from the center and releases the integrating forces leading to complete surrender of all our faculties, so that knowledge, love and will may act in complete harmony with the divine rhythm. In God it energizes His mercy and releases the forces of redemption that lead to the final integration of our being with Divine Will. This is confirmed by Krsna's urging Arjuna to surrender completely to His will, and His promising, on Arjuna's so doing, to free him from all bondage and sin. This is the principle of divine grace necessarily implied in bhakti. It may be asked how the principle of divine grace can be reconciled with the transcendent and self-sufficient character of the Divine Being, who remains unaffected by the material and has no desires or motives. The answer lies in the nature of bhakti as a function of the hladini sakti, which, as we have already seen, energizes both Bhagavan and the bhakta. Like a lamp, which reveals itself as well as other objects, the hladini sakti of Bhagavan placed in the hearts of His devotees causes bliss to Him as well as to them. In fact, Bhagavan, the supreme relisher of bliss (rasika-sekhara), relishes the bliss flowing from the hladini sakti in the hearts of His devotees (sakty-ananda) even more than He relishes the bliss flowing from the nature of His own self (svarupananda). The gravitational force of the hladini sakti draws the bhakta towards Bhagavan, and Bhagavan towards the bhakta. The bhakta surrenders himself to Bhagavan, and Bhagavan surrenders Himself to the bhakta. Grace is nothing but the surrender of Bhagavan to the bhakta. The whole of spiritual life is governed by the law of harmony. Love is the law of harmony in its highest form. Self-surrender on our part and mercy on the part of God are the manifestations of the law of harmony. In the yoga of self-surrender, the soul strikes a divine chord and realizes an inner harmony of the highest order and a poise and equilibrium much more than the intellectual.

Vrndavana, the Highest Paradise by O.B.L. KAPOOR, Ph.D. O. B. L. Kapoor, Ph.D., has served as Head of the Philosophy Department and Dean of the Faculty of Arts at B.R. College in Agra, India, as Principal and Head of the Philosophy Department at K.N. Government Postgraduate College in Varanasi, as Principal of the Government college in Rampur, and as a member of the Executive Council of Agra University. He has been residing in Vrndavana since his retirement in 1967 and is engaged at present in writing books and articles concerning the teachings of Sn Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His disciples. He was initiated in 1932 by His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, by whose order Back to Godhead was first established in 1944. VRNDAVANA is the transcendental dwelling place (dhama) of Krsna. Being a manifestation of His intrinsic energy (svarupa-sakti), it is a part of Himself. It consists like Him of the attributes of existence (sat), intelligence (cit) and bliss (ananda) and is different from the phenomenal world, which is a manifestation of His extrinsic energy (maya-sakti). Also, since it is a manifestation of His intrinsic energy, it is inseparably related to Him. We can think neither of Krsna without Vrndavana nor of Vrndavana without Krsna. Krsna eternally stays in Vrndavana and does not move even a step out of it [vrndavanam parityajya sa kvacit naiva gacchati). Just as there are infinite manifestations of Krsna, there are infinite manifestations of His abode. For each manifestation of Krsna there is a corresponding manifestation of His dwelling place. Since Krsna is the highest manifestation of Bhagavan (the Personality of Godhead), His abode, Vrndavana, is the highest abode. Just as Krsna is Bhagavan Himself (svayam bhagavan) and all other manifestations of Bhagavan are manifestations of Krsna, Vrndavana is the dhama (supreme abode) itself (svayam dhama), and all other manifestations of dhama are the manifestations of Vrndavana.** Vrndavana manifests itself partly or fully according to Krsna's manifesting Himself partly or fully. Just as each partial manifestation of Krsna is transcendental and all-pervading (vibhu) even though it appears phenomenal and limited, each partial manifestation of the dhama is transcendental and all-pervading, even though it appears phenomenal and limited. Even the different kinds of objects in the dhama, which look so much like phenomenal objects, are transcendental (cinmaya).** Sanatana Gosvami [a great authority on the Vedic scriptures] states that each one of them is concentrated Brahman (spirit). Even though each dhama is infinite and all-pervading, the dhamas are said to be situated one above another. Situated above the mundane sphere, which is graded into fourteen worlds-the seven Lokas and seven Patalas-and beyond the River Viraja, is the Brahmaloka, or Siddhaloka, which is the residence of all the freed (mukta) souls (Cc. Madhya 19.153). Above the Brahmaloka is the paravyoma, where the infinite avataras, or partial manifestations of Krsna, reside, and which is the support of infinite spiritual regions called Vaikunthas (Cc, Adi 5.15). Above all these dhamas is Krsnaloka (Krsna's abode), which, according to the differences in Krsna's pastimes (lilas) and associates (parikaras), appears in three different forms-as Dvaraka, Mathura and Gokula (Cc. Adi 5.13). Gokula, the highest of the three, is also called Vrndavana because Vrndavana is the central portion of Gokula. The situation of the dhamas above or below each other should not, however, be taken in its literal sense. It actually implies their gradation according to their excellence (mahima). The excellence of a dhama depends on the degree to which it manifests the highest dhama, Vrndavana. Thus the excellence of Siddhaloka is greater than the excellence of the phenomenal world, the excellence of paravyoma is greater than the excellence of Siddhaloka, the excellence of Krsnaloka is greater than the excellence of paravyoma, and the excellence of Gokula is greater than the excellence of all the rest of Krsnaloka. The excellence of Vrndavana is the greatest of all. In the Rg Veda (1.154.6) Vrndavana is described as the highest dhama (paramam padam) of Visnu. The Bhagavatam also describes it as the highest dhama. In the Gita Krsna Himself describes it as "My highest dhama.''** It is so described because it surpasses all other dhamas in grandeur (aisvarya) and sweetness (madhurya). But its peculiarity is that its sweetness completely eclipses its grandeur, so that everything here assumes a form sweet beyond expression. Krsna does not appear here as God or even as a king, but as a cowherd boy with the crest of a peacock feather on His crown and a flute in His hand, eternally engaged in amorous pastimes with His consorts on the bank of the River Yamuna underneath the kadamba trees and in the green groves; laden with sweet-smelling flowers, all of which breathe an atmosphere of freedom 'and sweetness most congenial to Him and His consorts. It is therefore not possible to think of Krsna's presence anywhere else. Krsna in Mathura and Dvaraka is not really the Krsna of Vrndavana but His partial manifestation called Vasudeva. When Krsna is said to go out of Vrndavana, as, for example, when He goes to Mathura at the invitation of Kamsa, it is really His partial manifestation Vasudeva who goes there, not Krsna Himself, who remains unmanifest during that period in His manifest pastimes (prakata-lila) in Vrndavana.** Indicating how Krsna is inseparably connected with Vrndavana in His highest aspect, which fully displays His sweetness, Radha, to whom even a moment's separation from Krsna is unbearable, is not satisfied to find Him in Kuruksetra, where He appears as a king with His entourage and not as a cowherd with His flute (Cc. Madhya 1.72-73). She is also not satisfied to find Him in Nava-vrndavana, a replica of Vrndavana specially prepared for Her in Dvaraka, because it lacks the atmosphere of freedom and the charm and grace so natural to Vrndavana and is therefore not conducive to the highest bliss She is accustomed to experience in the company of Krsna in Vrndavana. It is not surprising, therefore, that Uddhava, the wisest of Krsna's associates, Wishes to be a blade of grass or a creeper in Vrndavana so that he may be consecrated by the dust of the holy feet of the gopis.** Even the great Sankaracarya, who regards the form and pastimes of Krsna as creations of maya, reveals a secret desire to be in Vrndavana so that he may sit on the bank of the Yamuna and pass each long day of his life in the twinkling of an eye, meditating on Krsna: kada vrndaranye tarani-tanaya-punya-puline smaran sri-gopalam nimisam iva nesyami divas an (Abhilasastaka) The celestial Dvaraka, Mathura and Gokula (Vrndavana) have their replicas on earth [in India] in the forms of the geographical Dvaraka, Mathura and Vrndavana, which are known as their prakata-prakasas, or manifest forms. These appear as parts of the phenomenal world to our clouded vision, but are in essence identical with their Celestial counterparts. Here also Krsna is eternally present with Nanda, Yasoda and His other associates and performs His pastimes with them as in the celestial Dvaraka, Mathura and Vrndavana. If we could see them with spiritual eyes, they would without a doubt appear in their true form (Cc. Adi 5.20-21). Even today, while staying in these very abodes and in their very bodies, the devotees who attain accomplishment (siddhavastha) in devotion are blessed with the vision of the divine pastimes of Krsna with His associates; such devotees need not be transported to any other abode or level of existence. When Krsna descends to these abodes, however, at the time of His manifest pastimes (prakata-prakasa), even those who are not devoted can see these pastimes in their true form. Such is the effect of the divine touch of Krsna with these abodes, which otherwise appear phenomenal. Besides the manifest forms of Krsnaloka, there is also an unmanifest form of it on earth that has the peculiar power of always remaining invisible; it remains on earth without touching it. Thus there are two aprakata-prakasas (unmanifest forms) of Krsnaloka. One is the Krsnaloka situated above paravyoma, which is called by various names: Goloka, Gokula, Svetadvipa, Vrajaloka or Vrndavana. The other is the invisible Krsnaloka situated on earth, which is different from the prapancika, the phenomenal Krsnaloka visible to our material eyes and actually touching the earth. It is also called Gokula or Vraja. Rupa Gosvami states in Laghu-bhagavatamrta (1.277.78) that Goloka is a majestic manifestation (vaibhava-prakasa) of Gokula, which is essentially sweet in appearance and therefore greater in excellence. As an instance of the majesty (vaibhava) of Goloka, he cites the Varaha Purana, which says that the kadamba trees of Goloka spread out majestically with their hundreds of branches, which is just in keeping with its aisvarya (opulence), while the kadamba trees of Gokula are medium-sized, which is in keeping with its madhurya (sweetness). A special reason why Gokula excels Goloka in sweetness is that in Goloka Krsna is present eternally without birth, on account of which His pastimes in Goloka differ in certain respects from the sweet human aspect in which they reveal themselves in the phenomenal Gokula. Brahma-samhita describes the pastimes of Vrndavana as nara-lila (manlike pastimes) and those of Goloka as deva-lila (Godlike pastimes). This theory is supported by the rasa dance in Goloka, which Krsna is said in Brhad-bhagavatamrta to have performed on the head of Kaliya Naga, the thousand-headed cobra, although there is no mention of this in the Bhagavatam. According to Jiva Gosvami also (Gopala-campu, Purva-khanda, 19), Goloka is the majestic manifestation of Vrndavana. He describes Vrndavana as the inner side (antar-mandala) of Goloka, and Goloka as the outer side (bahir-mandala) of Vrndavana. But they are not the outer and inner side of each other in the physical sense, for it is possible to see Goloka in Vrndavana (because Goloka is the majestic manifestation of Vrndavana) but not possible to see Vrndavana in Goloka (Krsna-sandarbha, 116). According to Rupa and Jiva, (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Tika 1.4), Goloka can be attained by vaidhi (ritualistic) bhakti, but Vrndavana can be attained only by raganuga bhakti, or bhakti flowing spontaneously like a current, disregarding the rules and regulations of ritualistic bhakti. This is a further indication of the difference between the two abodes. Sanatana seems to differ from Rupa and Jiva in regard to both the relation between Goloka and Vrndavana and the means of their realization. According to him, Goloka (or rather the part of Goloka called Gokula) and the phenomenal Gokula or Vrndavana are identical. In his Brhad-bhagavatamrta, Gopa Kumara sometimes stays in Goloka and sometimes in Vrndavana, without being able to make out any difference between them.** According to him, both abodes can be attained only by spontaneous devotion and not by any other means. The difference between the two points of view, however, will seem negligible if we take into consideration the following points: 1. Although Sanatana Gosvami regards Goloka and Vrndavana as identical, it is clear from his tika on Brhad-bhagavatamrta (2, 5, 78-79) that Vrndavana is the marma-taramsa of Goloka, or the part of Goloka that supersedes the whole in excellence. 2. Sanatana also admits that the excellence of the phenomenal Vraja exceeds the excellence of Goloka at the time of the manifest pastimes (prakata-lila) of Krsna. 3. Although Rupa and Jiva regard Goloka as the majestic manifestation of Vrndavana, Jiva seems to regard them as essentially identical. He establishes their identity by referring to the "goloka eva nivasati" text of Brahma-samhita and the "tatraiva ramanarthe hi nitya-kalam sa gacchati" text of the Adi Purana, one of which says that Krsna always stays in Goloka and the other that He always stays in the phenomenal Vrndavana, and by saying that the contradiction between them can be resolved only if the two are regarded as actually one a nd the same. In answer to a question regarding the Hari-vamsa's mention of Sri Krsna's lifting Govardhana Hill in Goloka, he clearly states that since Goloka and Gokula are identical, a pastime that took place in Gokula can always be mentioned in reference to Goloka. 4. Regarding the means of realizing the two abodes, although Sanatana holds that it is spontaneous devotion for both, he maintains that if an aspiring devotee adopts any other means, he has a vision of Goloka but is not able to see Krsna perform His pastimes with His associates, or if he is able to do so, he cannot himself participate in the pastimes. 5. Visvanatha Cakravarti states that those who wish to realize the sweetness of Radha-Krsna but practice ritualistic bhakti cannot attain Radha-Krsna in Vrndavana because their bhakti is not spontaneous, and they cannot attain Krsna in Dvaraka because they do not desire to do so. Therefore they attain Radha-Krsna in Goloka, the majestic manifestation of Vrndavana. Thus we may conclude that there is essentially no difference between Goloka and Gokula (Vrndavana). Goloka is a particular manifestation of Vrndavana in which sweetness predominates, but not to the extent to which it predominates in Vrndavana. It is therefore called the majestic manifestation of Vrndavana. Vrndavana is attained by spontaneous devotion, whereas Goloka is attained by ritualistic devotion. The greater the dominance of spontaneity, the fuller the realization of Goloka's sweetness. But when spontaneous devotion is pure, Goloka is realized in its highest aspect which displays sweetness fully and is called the inner side (antar-mandala) of Goloka. In this aspect Goloka is identical with the phenomenal Vrndavana, and the sweetness displayed here is the same as that in the phenomenal Vrndavana, except for the difference caused by Sri Krsna's always being present in Goloka as a young boy of tender age (nitya-kisora), although in the phenomenal Vrndavana He takes birth and gradually attains boyhood. The veracity of the claim that the phenomenal Vrndavana, which looks like any other part of the material world to our material eyes, is itself the spiritual Vrndavana, the highest abode, surpassing even Goloka in its excellence, may be questioned. But Sri Caitanya and His followers are ever so emphatic in their statements about its transcendental character. Sri Rupa Gosvami says that devotees who have ardent love for Krsna are even today blessed with a vision of His divine pastimes in this very Vrndavana. Sanatana Gosvami says that Vrndavana is here on earth and Krsna's unmanifest pastimes are going on in it even now, but none except those to whom He and His devotees are kind can see it. Prabodhananda Sarasvati describes how he actually sees this Vrndavana in its real form with all its transcendent beauty and excellence: aho sarvoparyati vimala-vistirna-madhurya- sphurac-candra-prayam sphurati mama vrndavanam idam "Oh, this Vrndavana of mine, stationed above every other abode! How it shines near me like a big moon in all its resplendent beauty!" (Vrndavana-mahimamrta, 4.83) No ground is thus left for any doubt that this very Vrndavana is the highest paradise, where Krsna eternally revels in His spiritual pastimes. Residing here, therefore, is considered one of the most important aspects of devotional service. Prabodhananda says that if one takes shelter of Vrndavana with faith and devotion, he will be blessed with a vision of the rasa dance of Krsna with His consorts even if he does not perform any other regulative worship. He concisely states his entire philosophy of Vrndavana in another verse, which says that to reside in Vrndavana is to perform the highest worship, to attain Vrndavana is to attain the highest end, and to realize Vrndavana is to realize the highest truth and the highest bliss.

Lord Kapila continued: The ten-month-old living entity has these desires even while in the womb. But while he thus extols the Lord, the wind that helps parturition propels him forth with his face turned downward so that he may be born. Pushed downward all of a sudden by the wind, the child comes out with great trouble, head downward, breathless and deprived of memory due to severe agony. The child thus falls on the ground, smeared with stool and blood, and plays just like a worm germinated from the stool. He loses his superior knowledge and cries under the spell of maya. After coming out of the abdomen, the child is given to the care of persons who are unable to understand what he wants, and thus he is nursed by such persons. Unable to refuse whatever is given to him, he falls into undesirable circumstances. Laid down on a foul bed infested with sweat and germs, the poor child is incapable of scratching his body to get relief from his itching sensation to say nothing of sitting up, standing or even moving. In his helpless condition, gnats, mosquitoes, bugs and other germs bite the baby, whose skin is tender, just as smaller worms bite a big worm. The child, deprived of his wisdom, cries bitterly. In this way, the child passes through his childhood, suffering different kinds of distress, and attains boyhood. In boyhood also he suffers pain over desires to get things he can never achieve. And thus, due to ignorance, he becomes angry and sorry. With the growth of the body, the living entity, in order to vanquish his soul, increases his false prestige and anger and thereby creates enmity towards similarly lusty people. By such ignorance the living entity accepts the material body, which is made of five elements, as himself. With this misunderstanding, he accepts nonpermanent things as his own and increases his ignorance in the darkest region. For the sake of the body, which is a source of constant trouble to him and which follows him because he is bound by ties of ignorance and fruitive activities, he performs various actions which cause him to be subjected to repeated birth and death. If, therefore, the living entity again associates with the path of unrighteousness, influenced by sensually minded people engaged in the pursuit of sexual enjoyment and the gratification of the palate, he again goes to hell as before. He becomes devoid of truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, gravity, spiritual intelligence, shyness, austerity, fame, forgiveness, control of the mind, control of the senses, fortune and all such opportunities. One should not associate with a coarse fool who is bereft of the knowledge of self-realization and who is no more than a dancing dog in the hands of a woman. The infatuation and bondage which accrue to a man from attachment to any other object is not as complete as that resulting from attachment to a woman or to the fellowship of men who are fond of women. (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.22-35)

Syamasundara dasa: Generally speaking, Socrates was more concerned with God as a moral reality than as a personal conception. Srila Prabhupada: Moral reality is necessarily presonal. If man is moral, we say that he is honest. If he follows no moral principles, we say that he is dishonest. Thus morality and immorality refer Syamasundara dasa: Then if God is pure morality, He must be a person. Srila Prabhupada: Certainly. All good. god is good, and this means that He is full of morality. Syamasundara dasa: Socrates taught that good deeds bring happiness and that to perform them is the real goal of life. Srila Prabhupada: That is the law of karma. If I work hard in this life, I earn money. If I study hard, I acquire an education. However, if I neither work nor study, I remain poor and uneducated. This is the law of karma. According to the Vedic varnasrama-dharma, society is divided into four castes: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra. Each caste has its particular duty, but that duty is connected to God’s service. In other words, everyone can satisfy the Supreme Lord by performing his duty. By walking, the legs perform their duty, and by touching or holding, the hands perform their duty. Every part of the body performs a duty alotted to it. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God, and if we do our duty, we are serving God. This is the system of varnasrama-dharma. Krsna Himself says in Bhagavad-gita: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me.” It is further stated: “By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings, and who is all-pervading, a man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection.” (Bg. 18.46) Thus the respective duties of the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra can be dovetailed to the service of the Lord, and by doing so, any man can attain perfection. Syamasundara dasa: Is moral improvement the highest goal of mankind, or is there something higher? Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we must understand what morality is. Morality means discharging our prescribed duties without hindering others in the execution of their duties. That is morality. Syamasundara dasa: What do you consider the shortcomings of a philosophy devoted to moral improvement and knowing oneself through pure reason alone? Srila Prabhupada: Knowing oneself through pure reason alone will take time. Of course, in European philosophy, there is an atempt at more independent thought, but such independent thinking is not approved by the followers of the Vedas. The Vedic followers receive knowledge directly from authorities. They do not speculate. We cannot attain knowledge through speculation because everyone is imperfect. A person may be proud of seeing, but he does not know that his eyesight is conditioned. Unless there is sunlight, he cannot see. Therefore, what is the intrinsic value of eyesight? We should not be very proud of seeing or thinking because our senses are imperfect. We therefore have to receive knowledge from the perfect. In this way, we save time. According to the Vedic system, we receive knowledge from Vyasadeva, Narada, and Sri Krsna Himself. This knowledge is perfect because these personalities are not subjected to the four defects of conditioned living entities. The conditioned living entity has a tendency to commit mistakes, to be illusioned, to have imperfect senses, and to cheat. These are the four imperfections of conditional life. We therefore have to receive knowledge from those who are liberated. This is the Vedic process. If we receive knowledge from Krsna, there cannot be any mistake, nor any question of illusion. Our senses may be imperfect, but Krsna’s senses are perfect; therefore whatever Krsna says, we accept, and that acceptance is our perfection. A person may search for years to find out who his father is, but the immediate answer is available through his mother. The best way to solve this problem is by directly asking the mother. Similarly, all knowledge received from the perfect liberated person or from the mother Vedas is perfect. Syamasundara dasa: Socrates’s emphasis was on humanity and ethical action. He said that our lives should be composed of good deeds because we can attain the highest perfection by being virtuous. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to do good work is also recommended in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is possible to go home, back to Godhead, if we always work for the benefit of others. This Krsna consciousness movement means benefitting others twenty-four hours a day. People are lacking knowledge of God, and we are preaching this knowledge. This is the highest humanitarian work: to elevate the ignorant to the platform of knowledge. Syamasundara dasa: But wouldn’t you say that there is something more than moral improvement? Isn’t that just a by-product of something else? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, real improvement is realizing God and our relationship with Him. In order to come to this platform, morality or purity is required. God is pure, and unless we are also pure, we cannot appraoach God. Therefore, we are prohibiting meat, eating, illicit sex, intoxication, and gambling. These are immoral habits that are always keping us impure. Unless we abandon these impure habits, we cannot progress in Krsna consciousness. Syamasundara dasa: Then morality is just a qualification for becoming God conscious, isn’t it? Srila Prabhupada: If we take to Krsna consciousness, we automatically become moral. On the one hand, we have to observe the regulative moral principles, and on the other hand we have to develop our tendency to serve Krsna more and more. By serving Krsna, we become moral. However, if we try to be moral without serving Krsna, we will fail. Therefore so-called followers of morality are always frustrated. The goal is transcendental to human morality. We have to come to the platform of Krsna consciousness in order to be truly moral. According to Srimad-Bhagavatam: “All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge, and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord’s external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?” (Bhag 5.18.12) The conclusion is that we cannot be moral without being devotees. We may artificially try to be moral, but ultimately we will fail.

Syamasundara dasa: Socrates believed that ignorance results in bad actions, and that the knowledgeable man will automatically act properly. Srila Prabhupada: When an ignorant child touches fire and is burned, he cries. His distress is due to ignorance. An intelligent person will not touch fire because he knows it’s properties. Thus ignorance is the cause of bondage and suffering. It is due to ignorance that people commit many sinful activities and become entangled. Syamasundara dasa: Does this mean that when people are enlightened with proper knowledge, they will automatically become good? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita: “As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.” (Bg. 4.37) The fire of knowledge consumes all sinful activities. To this end, there is need for education. People are born ignorant, and education is needed to remove their ignorance. Since they are born illusioned by the bodily conception, people act like animals. They therefore have to be educated to understand that they are different from the material body. Syamasundara dasa: Why is it that some people who receive this knowledge later reject it? Srila Prabhupada: Then it is not perfect knowledge. when one actually receives perfect knowledge, he becomes good. This is a fact. If one is not good, it is because he has not received perfect knowledge. Syamasundara dasa: Is there not a class of men that is always evil? Srila Prabhupada: No. Syamasundara dasa: Can any man be made good? Srila Prabhupada: Certainly, because the soul is by nature good. The living entity is covered by the inferior modes of material nature, by passion and ignorance. When he is cleansed of this covering, his goodness will emerge. The soul is originally good because it is part and parcel of God, and God is all good. That which is part and parcel of gold is also gold. Although the soul is covered by matter, the soul is all good. When a sharpened knife is covered by rust, it looses its sharpness. If we remove the rust, the knife will once again be sharp. Syamasundara dasa: Does the existence of evil in the world mean that there is absolute evil? Srila Prabhupada: Absolute evil means forgetfulness of the Absolute Truth. Krsna is the Absolute Truth, and lack of Krsna consciousness is absolute evil. In terms of the absolute evil, we may say that this is good and that is bad, but all this is mental concoction.

Hayagriva dasa: It has been said that Socrates philosophy is primarily a philosophy of ethics, pointing to the way of action in the world. Jnana, or knowledge in itself, is not sufficient. It must be applied, and must serve as a basis for activity. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, ethics form the basic principle of purification. We cannot be purified unless we know what is moral and what is immoral. Unfortunately, everything in this material world is more or less immoral, but we still have to distinguish between good and bad. Therefore we have regulative principles. By following them, we can come to the spiritual platform and transcend the influence of the three modes of material nature. Passion is the binding force in the material world. In a prison, prisoners are sometimes shackled, and similarly, material nature provides the shackles of sex life to bind us to this material world. This is the mode of rajas, passion. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says: “It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.” (Bg. 3.37) Rajo-guna, the mode of passion, includes kama, lusty desires. When our lusty desires are not fulfilled, we become angry (Krodha). All this binds us to the material world. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: “As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effect of nature’s modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.” (Bhag. 1.2.19) When we are subjected to the lower material modes (rajo-guna and tamo-guna), we become greedy and lusty. Ethics provide a way to escape the clutches of greeed and lust. Then we can come to the platform of goodness and from there attain the spiritual platform. Hayagriva dasa: Is meditation in itself sufficient to transcend these lower modes? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If we seek the Supersoul within, our meditatin is perfect. But if we manufacture something in the name of transcendental meditation in order to bluff others, it is useless.

Hayagriva dasa: In additon to believing in the value of insight, or meditation, Socrates also believed that knowlede can be imparted from one person to another. He therefore asserted the importance of a guru, which he himself was from many people. Sometimes, posing as an ignorant person, Socrates would question his disciples. He would not offer the answers but would try to draw them out of his disciples, a process known as the maieutic method. He considered himself to be a kind of midwife drawing the truth from the repository of the soul. Srila Prabhupada: This is similar to our method because we say that you must approach a guru in order to learn the truth. This is the instruction given in all Vedic scriptures. In Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna Himself advises: “Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.” (Bg. 4.34) A guru who knows the truth is one who has seen the truth. People say, “Can you show me God?” It is a natural tendency to want to know something by direct perception. This is possible by advanced devotion. As I have already explained: santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. The realized devotee is constantly seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Syamasundara. You can constantly see the Supreme Lord as Paramatma sitting within your heart, and you can take advice from Him. Krsna also condirms this: buddhi-yogam dadamyaham. Yoga means concentrating the mind in order to see the Supersoul within. Therefore you have to control the activities of the senses and withdraw them from material engagement. when your concentration is perfect, when your mind is focused on Paramatma, you always see Him. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says: “And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.” (Bg. 6.47) The perfect yogi sees God constantly within. That is perfection. The process that Socrates used gave his disciples a good chance to develop their understanding. When a parent raises a child, he first of all takes his hand and teaches him how to walk. sometimes he gives the child freedom to walk on his own, although he may sometimes fall down. the father then encourages the child, saying, “Ah, you are doing very nicely. Stand up again and walk.” Similarly, the guru gives his disciple the chance to think properly in order to go back home, back to Godhead. Sometimes, when a person comes to argue, the guru says, “All right, what do you consider important?” In this way, the person’s position is understood. An expert teacher knows how to capture a fool. First, let the fool go on and speak all sorts of nonsense. Then he can understand where he is having difficulty. That is also a process.