ethos

JNdas, you posted this in the article "Why do we have rituals for a dead body" in the Letters to the Editor thread: "In the case of saints and realized souls, the bodies are not cremated at the time of death. They possess no material attachment to the external body, and thus there is no need for cremation. The bodies of such realized souls are burried in "samadhis", or temples. And through these samadhis the realized saints help others on their path towards perfection." Could you please elaborate on the saints helping others through their samadhis?

What mischievous darlings... irresistable!

Leyh, The bold highlights assist the eyes when the common text intervenes. But when it is on top of each other it is harder to distinguish. There must be some consistency to the presentation. That's why I have opted not to use it. You might think different. As you were.

Leyh, Nice response. Christian, I know most of us hold Jesus Christ as a pure devotee. And we can appreciate the supreme sacrifice he made for his preaching efforts. We don't deny the validity of Christianity as we don't deny any time-tested world-class scripture and tradition. We are not sectarian. Perhaps our pride in thinking we are the best comes across as sectarian. I invite you again to communicate your concepts concerning Christianity with this board. We can all benefit by evaluating our beliefs... Sort of a shared meditation? Alot of us have Christian upbringings.

"I think this solves the whole case. Any thoughts?" I am enjoying your insightful dialogue and your use of Prabhupada nectar. Hare Bol!

Christian, You may be in illusion––and crazy enough to admonish your superiors. "Hey, how is everybody? Well, I think by now it is pretty obvious I'm a Christian. My faith won't change... " If you can't change your faith, then you have a poor fund of knowledge, you are mislead by the public, and/or you can't get beyond you bodily identifications and attachments. If you can't appreciate a rich culture embued with devotion, then you are being superficially sectarian and egocentric. You think spiritual joy is limited only to Christianity? You can find it throughout the world as practiced by different beliefs and cultures. Anyone who actually loves God would recognize and appreciate other people attempting to do the same. Logically, sincere candidates would appreciate the intimate descriptions of God's person and pastimes found only in the Vedic literatures too. Gold is where you find it. Spiritual science is found in India. If you bother to investigate this objective claim you will find it's true. "If we can work to god on our own through works, knowledge, and devotion, why do we need a god? Shouldn't the god be saving you, after all, he's perfect. That's what a god is." You can't fool us into thinking you know who and what God is. You can't even refer to Him with proper grammer. God is saving us by revealing His nature; His likes and dislikes. He expounds the mystic yoga of Bhagavad-gita and enacts His unparalleled pastimes to attract us. It is our misfortune not to understand these things. God is giving all kinds of signs for you, but what signs are you making? "God, I accept You. Come take me away and enjoy my good company!" What if some wino on the street says, "I accept you. Come take me away and enjoy my good company"? Birds of a feather flock together. God, being the most pure, is difficult to attain since you have to have compatable qualities to associate with Him. It is our committment to prescribed duties, knowledge and devotion that trains and elevates our consciousness to be sensitive to the will of God and homogenous in His presence. Just making demands or awaiting infinite mercy is not positive activity. Rather, it is the activity of lazy fools. "Obviously you aren't monotheistic, but how can you have more than one god? A god is all powerful. If you have a little god, and then you have Krishina, then the little god isn't even worthy of being a god. It doesn't make sense." Now you are confirming your ignorance of God. Why would God be limited to expanding Himself as many times as He likes? He already has an all-pervading body and He has expanded into infinite jiva souls like ourselves. Why can't He have personal expansions befitting the title of Godhead? Perhaps the little gods mentioned by you are what we call demigods. They are simply empowered administrators of universal affairs that dutifully exercise management. That's all. Any government or powerful person has these gophers. They are not gods from God's perspective. They are simply entrusted servants or qualitified representatives carrying out Krsna's orders. "I believe that nobody can earn their way to heaven, or nirvana, on their own or with any human's help. We need a god. We can't be perfect." The idea is that you follow God's laws out of a sense of duty and devotion. By doing so, you hope to intice God to review or change His attitude towards you, to attract God's attention and mercy. It takes individual effort and commitment to practice these higher principles when our natural human nature is simply to pursue self-aggradizement. If you take one step towards Him, He will take 3 towards you. It is this submissive positive activity that makes Him notice. You don't just tell God what to think or how He can serve you. Krsna is not so foolish or cheap that He can be manipulated by a simple profession of words. You have to practically demonstrate your usefulness. We all apprentice ourselves to people in any field or study who have the knowledge in an effort to understand what they do––even if they aren't gods. We learn from those who know. Spiritual life expands your ability to know the quality and purpose of everything, and that too is best learned from a guru. You display a lack of comprehending even the simplest concepts. Why bother taking help from others in Christianity or affirming what they believe? After all they are just men. Why not just provoke God's mercy and power with your rightheous words and return to heaven? What are you waiting for? But you can't act––it is all just talk. The chiding you finish your message with is rather childish considering the nature and qualities of this board's participants. Seek knowledge and you may find it. Otherwise you will be revealed a charlatan by those who actually know. There are many here willing to administer your ignorance if you display a little more awareness of your own limitations and stop trying to make them subject to your inadequate system. You should know your opponent before you engage him. I took the time to say what almost anyone on this board could have said. You have been answered. Now answer this critique on Christianity and practically demonstrate your better understanding with action of rebuttal: Click on spiritual discussions above to go back to topic index. Then in the bottom right hand of the page below the listings do a search with "on christianity". You will see several search results. Click on "Bhaktivenoda Thakura on Christianity". It may be forth from the top. Please read and reply. This is your chance to justify your faith with your own realizations and convince others. You will find these participants receptive to truth. We shall see to what degree you possess it. "... but I've got some questions to ask you that should make you think?" Your questions make us think how little Christians know about what they're talking about.

This article brought back memories and feelings. I was living in the Atlanta temple at the time Prabhupada left. I remember the tears––and the feeling of hopelessness that the light had indeed left the world. I think time has verified those feelings of loss. "the spiritual master is present wherever his instructions are followed." A philosophical corillary would be that he is not present where his instructions are not followed. "In the process, we have had to grow and expand our vision of the spiritual master and his causeless mercy." Most of us can see this on a subjective level. At least in retrospect we should understand how Prabhupada "was" ISKCON. Prabhupada was ISKCON's sun and moon. For the sun and moon there are no substitutes. Where is the prevalent Krsna-katha now––mentioned above––experienced at the time of Prabhupada's presence? Where is the anticipation or even surprise? Where is the inundation? Unfortunately, "had to grow" is not the pratical description of our individual or combined devotional lives. Presently, no individual or combined efforts have satisfied Prabhupada's enertia. Spiritual relationships are dynamic and require constant cultivation. Most of Prabhupada's disciples (including myself) have been quite negligent in checking ISKCON mismanagement and uniting on common ground as a devotional army to protect ourselves or significantly advance our Lord's desire throughout the world: we have failed and are failing Prabhupada's house and home. "Srila Prabhupada has touched and changed the lives of so many of us. How he could do so in such a brief span of time is nothing short of mind-boggling. Even twenty-five years after his departure, Srila Prabhupada is still preaching and making new devotees everywhere. His mercy continues to expand without limit. He is still here. Therefore who can fathom the depth of his compassion and kindness? We have been so fortunate to have found the most perfect example and teacher; so now, there is nothing left to do but simply try our best to broadcast his glories everywhere." Theoretically and literally perfect. But are we doing our best? My reasoning has to reflect on "his mercy continues to expand without limit" and "there is nothing left to do but simply try our best to broadcast his glories everywhere." If you consider how devotees are still being made from nondevotees, his mercy is alive and working. But if you consider how our ISKCON family has failed to live cooperatively, perpetuate the inertia started by Prabhupada, and produce the self-controlled leaders of society empowered to represent God and a spiritual science, we have been and are dismally thwarted. We can't even create a sustainable farming community. We have allowed Prabhupada's words to be compromised and his house to crumble. We follow our individual minds and not the family icon. We are children of Kali-yuga. "Everything changed at 7:20 p.m. on November 14, 1977... No longer did we have the same youthful confidence that our movement could save the world." Optimism is our future. Pessimism is our life. Oh! ...and as an afterthought ...I remain disgusted how many temple presidents routinely go to India every year while devotees who have quietly done service for years while living in a temple (as some pujaris) have never been to see the land of magic and mysticism.

I wish I could make the concert. I'd fly half-way around the world to be there.

RIFamily, We all go through this. But ultimately, it doesn't make any difference which way the balls spin or how they're constituted. The real questions are "Why does it exists at all?" and "What's this all about?" The "why" questions get to the nitty-gritty, the "how" questions are barking up the wrong tree. The explanations concerning the universal structure are to be considered factual--and dualistic. I may be a dad, but I'm also a son from another valid viewpoint. Our philosophy is simulataneous oneness and difference... perspective according to time and circumstances. Quantum mechanics also emphasizes these points. We can't even understand this world, what to speak of the more complicated universe. Alot of us simply take on faith these things we cannot yet understand. It would be nice to know, but ultimately it's not so important to our moral life.

Guest, I really didn't want any replies on this thread. Now you have interrupted the order of my postings. Please read this and reply with your Christian righteousness: Bhaktivinode Thakur on Christianity http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=29955&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 ____ Knowledge is where you find it ––Hridayananda das Gosvami

Prabhupada propagated and left instructions for ISKCON farming communities to be self-sufficient examples to the world. Have any farms accomplished this? Or do they all use tractors and so on? If they can't do it, why not? Do potential laborers see no future in it?

Prabhupada propagated and left instructions for ISKCON farming communities to be self-sufficient examples to the world. Have any farms accomplished this? Or do they all use tractors and so on? If they can't do it, why not? Do potential laborers see no future in it?

Copyright

Copyright

Copyright

Copyright

That's All Folks!

Hayagriva dasa: Mill was such a staunch humanist that he wrote: “I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet to my fellow creatures, and if such a being can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go.” Srila Prabhupada: God is always good, and if one does not know the goodness of God, he is imperfect. According to all Vedic literatures, God is always good and always great. What does Mill consider to be a good man? Hayagriva dasa: One who works for what he calls “the greatest happiness principle,” that is, the greatest happiness for everyone on earth. Srila Prabhupada: Is there any man who can do good will for all? Hayagriva dasa: Christ said that no man is good, that there is only one good, and that is God. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. You may think that this man is good, but he is limited in his power. He may still think in terms of his nation or society. Only a pure devotee of Krsna can be good because he abides by the order of the Supreme Good. Even if one has the desire to be a good man, it is not possible independent of God. In any case, these are all mental concoctions: good and bad. One who is not God conscious is necessarily bad, and one who is God conscious is good. This should be the only criterion. Syamasundara dasa: But what of Mill’s contention that the good gives the greatest pleasure to the greatest number of people? Srila Prabhupada: And what if the people are fools and rascals? The greatest number of people may say that cigarettes are very nice, but dows this mean that they are desirable? Syamasundara dasa: Mill makes a distinction between the quality and the quantity of pleasure. Certain pleasures are superior to others. Srila Prabhupada: When you have quality, the quantity naturally decreases. For instance, ordinary people take pleasure in eating, sleeping, mating, drinking, smoking, and so on. the pleausre of Krsna consciousness is a transcendental pleasure, but the people who take to it are very few. Generally, since conditioned souls are fools, the pleasure that is most popular is the one followed by the greatest number of fools. According to our Vedic philosophy, man is born a fool, but he can be made intelligent through education and culture. Syamasundara dasa: Mill advocated utilizing those principles that can give the pleasure of highest quality to the maximum people. He also wrote: “It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.” Srila Prabhupada: But how often will you find a Socrates? You cannot find Socrates loitering on every street. There will only be one in millions. There is no question of the maximum number of people. Men of Socrates’s caliber are a minimum. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says: “Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.” (Bg. 7.3) This is not a question of quantity, but of quality. Syamasundara dasa: Mill felt that the highest quality of pleasure might also be enjoyed by a larger number. All men should be trained to find pleasure according to this higher standard. Srila Prabhupada: This means that the maximum pleasure should be introduced to the maximum number of people. Unfortunately, it is not accepted by the greatest number but by a few only. This Krsna consciousness movement, for instance, cannot be understood by the masses. Only a few who are fortunate can understand. There may be millions of stars in the sky, but there is only one moon, and that is sufficient to drive away the darkness. It is not possible to have many moons, although there may be many glowworms. Syamasundara dasa: Mill was trying to ascertain that standard of pleasure which is most desirable. Srila Prabhupada: That he does not know. That he has to learn from the Vedas. Ordinary men take sex to be the highest pleasure, and the entire material world is existing because of sex, but how long does this sex pleasure last? A few minutes only. a man who is wise does not want pleasure that lasts only a few minutes but pleasure that continues perpetually. Nitya means “eternal,” and ananda means “bliss.” The Vedas state that those who are intelligent are not interested in transient pleasure but in eternal pleasure. They know their consittutional position; they know they are not the body. The pleasures of the body are transient and are sought by rascals. If one identifies with the body, he naturally seeks bodily pleasure. One who knows that he is not the body but eternal spirit soul seeks eternal spiritual pleasure. Syamasundara dasa: Mill believed that a small amount of a higher type of pleasure is superior to a greater amount of a lower type. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is our philosophy. In Bhagavad-gita it is said: “In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.” (Bg. 2.40) Even if one falls down from Krsna consciousness, he still gains from what little he has experienced. On the other hand, if one works according to the varnasrama dharma but does not take to devotional service. all his labors go in vain. There are many students who come to Krsna consciousness for a few days and then go away, but they return again because the quality is so great. Hare Krsna is so potent. Save for Krsna consciousness, everything is being dissipated by time, by the sun’s progress through the sky. Everything in this world is transient, but because we are eternal spirit souls, we should accept only that which has permanent value. It is foolishness to be satisfid with anything else. Syamasundara dasa: Mill would have said that the only standard we have for understanding what is desirable is the fact the people desire it. Srila Prabhupada: We should desire Krsna, but people do not know about Krsna. People are thinking, “I love my country,” or “I love my body.” What is this love? Because we are spirit soul and are within the body, we say, “I love.” Syamasundara dasa: But Mill reasons that if something is desired, it is desirable per se. Srila Prabhupada: Living entities desire many things. A hog desires stool, but is that desirable? the men on the Bowery are interested only in drinking. Is that very desirable? Caitanya Mah¢prabhu desires Krsna, and that is a different type of desire. That should be the real standard for desire. We should know what the greatest personalities, the mahajanas, are desiring, and we should make that our standard. We may desire something that is harmful for us, and not desire the good. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna wanted Arjuna to fight, but this wa not Arjuna’s desire. Arjuna initially wanted to leave the battlefield, but he changed his mind because Krsna wanted him to fight. The point is that we should desire what is desired by the great personalitites, not by ourselves. After all, what are we? We should always consider ourselves to be fools.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning morality, Mill writes: “Belief , then, in the supernatural, great as are the services which it rendered in the early stages of human development, cannot be considered to be any longer required either for enabling us to know what is right and wrong in social morality, or for supplying us with motives to do right nad to abstain from wrong.” Srila Prabhupada: Morality means abiding by the orders of God. That is real morality. Other moralities are manufactured, and they differ in different countries. Religion and real morality, however, function according to the same principle. Religion means carrying out the orders of God, and morality means following those principles whereby we can fulfill the deesires of god. Before the Battle of Kuruksetra, Arjuna considered killing to be immoral, but when he understood from the instructins of Krsna that the fight was necessary, he decided to carry out his duty as a køatriya. so this is morality. Ultimately, morality means carrying out the desires of God. Syamasundara dasa: For Mill, there are two moral sanctions of conduct. One is internal, which is our conscience and sense of duty. Srila Prabhupada: What does he mean by conscience. It is our duty to receive instructions from higher personalities. If we do not, how can we know our duty? Syamasundara dasa: Mill felt that our duty is that which produces the most good for the most people. Srila Prabhupada: That is all so vague. What if everyone wants to take drugs? Is it our duty to help them? How can a rascal understand what his duty is? One has to be trained to know. Syamasundara dasa: Mill would say that there is a rational or guiding principle for action, and this is the golden rule of the Christians: “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.” Srila Prabhupada: This means that you have to approach Christ. You cannot manufacture golden rules yourself. You have to abide by the orders of Christ, and that means approaching a superior authority. Syamasundara dasa: The second sanction of moral conduct is external: the fear of displeasing other men or God. We hope to win favor through acting morally. Srila Prabhupada: This also means accepting authority. Therefore the Vedas tell us that if we want to be really learned, we must approach a guru. Did John Stuart Mill have a guru? Syamasundara dasa: his father, James Mill, was also a great philosopher. Srila Prabhupada: In any case, we must accept some authority, be it Christ or K§øëa. Our duty lies in following the orders of the higher authority. Of course, we accept Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as our authority.

Hayagriva dasa: Mill certainly did not see God as the cause of evil. In fact, he considered God at war against it. Man’s role is to help God end this war. He writes: “If Providence is omnipotent, Providence intends whatever happens, and the fact of its happening proves that Providence intended it. If so, everything which a human being can do is predestined by providence and is a fulfillment of its designs. But if, as is the more religious theory, Providence intends not all which happens, but only what is good, then indeed man has it in his power, by his voluntary actions, to aid the intentions of Providence… ” Srila Prabhupada: Providence desires only the good. The living entity is in the material world due to the improper utilization of his will. Even though he wants to enjoy this material world, God is so kind that He gives him facilities and directions. When a child wants to play in a certain way, he is guided by some nurse or servant hired by the parents. Our position is something like that. We have given up the company of God to come to this materialo world to enjoy ourselves. So God has allowed us to come here, saying, “All right, enjoy this experience, and when you understand that this material enjoyment is ultimately frustrating, you can come back.“ Thus the Supreme Lord is guiding the enjoyment of all living beings, especially human beings, so that they may again return home, back to Godhead. nature is the agent acting under the instructions of God. If the living entity is overly addicted to misuse his freedom, he is punished. This punishment is a consequence of the living entity’s desire. God does not want a human being to become a pig, but when one develops such a mentality be eating anything and everything, God gives the facility by providing the body of a hog. God is situated in everyone’s heart, and is noting the desires of the living entity from within. According to one’s desires, God orders material nature to provide a particular body. Hayagriva dasa: Mill further writes: “Limited as, on this showing, the divine power must be by inscrutable but insumountable obstacles, who knows what man could have been created without desires which never are to be, and even which never ought to be, fulfilled?” Thus MIll concludes that the existence of evil, or pain and death, excludes the existence of an omnipotent God. He sees man in a position to “aid the intentions of Providence” by surmounting his evil instincts. God is not infinite in His power, because if He were, there would be no evil. Srila Prabhupada: Evil is undoubtedly created by God, but this was necessary due to the human being’s misuse of his free will. God gives man good directions, but when man is disobedient, evil is naturally there to punish him. Evil is not desired by God, yet it is created because it is necessary. Although a government constructs prisons, it prefers to construct universities so that people can attain an education and become highly enlightened. Because some people misuse their independence, prisons are necessary. We suffer due to our evil activities. Thus God, being supreme, punishes us. When we are under the protection of God, nothing is evil; everything is good. God does not create evil, but man’s evil activities provoke God to create an evil situation. Hayagriva dasa: In the Judeo-Christian tradition, God is at war with Satan. In Vedic literatures, there are also wars between the demigods and the demons, as well as Krsna and the demons, but theese wars do not seem to be taken as serious confrontations between God and His enemies. Isn’t Krsna’s mood always playful? Srila Prabhupada: Since Krsna is all-powerful, when He is fighting with demons, He is actually playing. This fighting does not affect His energy. It is like a father fighting with his small child. One slap is sufficient. Krsna gives the demons a chance to play by fighting Him, but one strong slap is sufficient. There is no question of fighting with God. He is omnipotent. However, when a living entity is disobedient and harasses the devotees, God kills him. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam (Bg. 4.8). When Krsna descends on this earth, He chastises the demons and protects His devotees. Whenever there is a fight between the demons and the demigods, God takes the side of the demigods. Hayagriva dasa: Mill saw it more like an actual struggle between God and Satan, or evil. Srila Prabhupada: There is struggle because the demons are always transgressing God’s rules. A demon is one who rejects God’s rules, and a demigod is one who accepts them. That is the main difference, as stated in the sastras. Hayagriva dasa: But Mill pictures God Himself as struggling hard in the fight to conquer the demons. Srila Prabhupada: God has no reason to struggle. According to the Vedas, He is so powerful that He has nothing to do. Just as a king may have many servants, ministers, and soldiers to carry out his desires, Krsna has many energies that act according to His order. Krsna Himself has nothing to do. he is playing His flute and enjoying Himself. That is ananda. Although He is enjoying Himself, the universe is going on in accordance with his orders, through the agencies of His multi-energies. There is no question of God struggling. He doesn’t even have to fight. His various agents can easily enough kill all the evil elements in the world. Syamasundara dasa: Mill believed that God is good, but that He is involved in a world not of His own making. Srila Prabhupada: Is God to be judged by Mr. Mill? God is good, but not as good as Mr. Mill thinks He ought to be? Is this his opinion of God? Is God good in all conditions? Or is God only good when Mr. Mill considers Him good? What is God’s position. Syamasundara dasa: Mill says that the presence of evil indicates that if God were everything, He would not be completely good. Srila Prabhupada: Therefore God has to depend on the opinion of Mr. Mill. Is it that Mr. Mill does not approve of all God’s activities? Syamasundara dasa: He maintains that God is good, but that He is limited in His power. If His power were absolute, everything would be good. Srila Prabhupada: How nonsensical! Everything is good! That is our philosophy. When God kills a demon, immediately flowers are showered from the sky. Whatever God does is good. Krsna danced with other men’s wives in the dead of night, and this activity is worshipped as rasa-lila. However, if an ordinary man does this, he is immediately condemned as a debauchee. In all corcumstances, God is good and worshipable. It is not that we subject God to our judgement, saying, “Oh yes, You are good, but not so good.” Fools think, “I am better than God. I can create my own God.” God creates us; we cannot create God. Unfortunately, Mill did not know what is evil and what is good. He should have known that whatever is created by God is good, even if it appears to be evil to us. We may think that such and such is evil, but actually it is good. If we do not know how it is good, that is our fault. God cannot be placed under our judgement. In all circumstances, God is good.

Syamasundara dasa: Mill claimed that the world, or nature, can be improved by man’s efforts, but that perfection is not possible. Srila Prabhupada: In one sense, that is correct. This world is so made that although you make it perfect today, tomorrow it will deteriorate. Nonetheless, the world can be improved by this Krsna consciousness. You can better the world by bringing people to Krsna consciousness and delivering the message of Krsna to whomever you meet. This is the best social activity you can perform. Syamasundara dasa: The goal of the utilitarians was more specifically to obtain whatever the people desire or require. Srila Prabhupada: The people desire happiness. The utilitarians try to give people artificial happiness, happiness separate from Krsna, but we are trying to give direct happiness, happiness that is connected with Krsna. If we purify our existence, we can attain spiritual, eternal happiness and bliss. Everyone is working hard for happiness, but how can happiness be attained in a diseased condition? The material disease is an impediment to happiness. The disease has to be cured.

Hayagriva dasa: Mill was particularly interested in the role of authority. In Utility of Religion, he writes, “Consider the enormous influence of authority on the human mind… Authority is the evidence on which the mass of mankind believe everything which they are said to know except facts of which their own senses have taken cognizance. It is the evidence on which even the wisest receive all those truths of science, or facts in history or in life, of which they have not personally examined the proofs… ” Srila Prabhupada: You can neither defy nor deny real authority. We are presenting our Krsna consciousness movement on this principle. We should carry out the orders of the authority, and Krsna, or god, is the Supreme Authority. Whatever he says must b accepted without interpretation. In this way, everyone can be happy. Those who are sane do not hesitate to accept God’s authority, and they become happy abiding by His orders. Those who exactly follow the instructions of the Supreme Authority are also authorities. The spiritual master is the authoritative servant, and God is the authoritative master. If we follow the instructions of the authoritative servant, we in turn become authoritative servants of the spiritual master.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning the different qualities of men and women, Comte wrote: “In all kinds of force, for the physical, intellectual, or practical, it is certain that men surpass women, in accordance with a general law which prevails throughout the animal kingdom… If there were no thing else to do but to love… women would be supreme.” Srila Prabhupada: This is a natural distinction between men and women. How can it be changed? Women are meant for certain activities, just as men are. You may try to change this artificially, but basically it cannot be changed. A woman becomes pregnant, but a man does not. How can this be changed? Hayagriva dasa: Well, from this he concludes that women, being dominated by love, are morally superior to men. He envisioned woman as “the spontaneous priestess of humanity. she personifies in the purest form the principle of love upon which the unity of our nature depends.” Srila Prabhupada: This is Conte’s imagination. When a woman is misguided, she becomes dangerous, and there is no question of love. According to the Vedic conception, women and children are on the same level, and they should both be protected by men. In childhood, a woman is protected by her father, in youth by her husband, and in old age by her grown sons. Women should never be given independence, but they should be given protection. In this way, their natural love for father, husband, and children will develop very smoothly. thus the relationship between women and men should be established very happily so that both can execute their real function: cooperative spiritual life. The woman should look after the comfort of the man, and the man, who works hard, should also look after her comfort. then both will be satisfied, and their spiritual lives will progress. A man is meant to work hard, and a woman is meant to give comfort and love in the home. In this way, man and woman can combine so that both can progress in spiritual life. Hayagriva dasa: Comte felt that love of God is inconsistent with love for our fellow men, and that it has always interfeered with man’s love of woman. He writes: “It was impiety for the knight to love his lady better than his God; and thus the best feelings of man’s nature were repressed by his religious faith. Women, therefore, are not really interested in perpetuatiing the old system [of religion]; and the very instincts by which their nature is characterized will soon incline them to abandon it.” Srila Prabhupada: Generally, women are interested in a comfortable home life. That is their nature. They are not spiritually very advanced or interested, but if a man has spiritual interests, and the woman helps the man––either as a mother, wife, or daughter––both can make spiritual progress. However, the woman must remain subordinate, and the man must make spiritual progress. Because the woman helps the man, she shares his spiritual benefits. Hayagriva dasa: Comte envisioned women primarily as companions of men. He writes: “The first aspect then, under which Positivism considers woman, is simply as the companion of man, irrespective of her maternal duties… For perfect friendship, difference of sex is essential, as excluding the possibility of rivalry.” Srila Prabhupada: According to the bodily demands, there are sexual necessities. Women should not only give sex pleasure to their husbands, but should also prepare good food. After coming home from a day of hard work, the man should be supplied good food, comfort, and sex. Then the home becomes very happy, and both husband and wife are satisfied. Then they can improve their real business, which is spiritual understanding. Human life is meant for progressing spiritually, and people must first of all know that the spirit soul is at the basis even of material life. The body is built upon the soul. Although women are generally less intelligent, this understanding is required of both men and women. With the help of the husband, a woman can become more intelligent. In Vedic history, we have the example of Kapila-deva giving spiritual instructions to his mother Devahuti. Whether the woman is a daughter, wife, or mother, if she remains subordinate, she can receive knowledge from either her father, husband, or son. In the Puranas, there is the example of Lord Siva answering the spiritual questions of Parvati. Women supply the comforts of the tongue, belly, and genitals, and, remianing submissive, they are instructed in spiritual life. Thus there is cooperative advancement. Hayagriva dasa: Comte felt that at least in the beginning stages of Positivism, women should take the place of God as an object of man’s affection and love. He writes: “From childhood, each of us will be taught to regard women’s sex as the principal source of human happiness and improvement, whether in public life or in private… In a word, man will kneel to women, and to women alone… She will be regarded by man as the most perfect personification of humanity… the worship of women, when it has assumed a more systematic shape, will be valued for its own sake as a new instrument of happiness and moral growth… The worship of women satisfies this condiiton, and is so far of greater ifficacy, than the worship of God.” Srila Prabhupada: It is the duty of men to protect women and maintain them comfortably, not worship them. It is not a very good proposal to worship a woman as God. Then man will be henpecked. worship is reserved for God only, and is not meant for others. However, cooperation between men and women for the sake of worshipping God is desirable. It is not that a man or a woman should be worshipped as God. sometimes, affection is so strong that a person may see another person as God, but that is sentimentalism. God is different from men and women, who are but living entities meant to worship God. A woman should always be engaged in assisting a man in every respect in his religious, social, and family life. That is the real benefit of conjugal love. Hayagriva dasa: Comte writes that “the whole effect of Positivist worship will be to make men feel clearly how far superior in every respect is the synthesis founded on the love of humanity to that founded on the love of God.” Srila Prabhupada: Love of humanity means raising humanity to the point where people can understand the real goal of life. We do not serve humanity by keeping people in darkness. We must enlighten others with knowlede, and ultimate knowledge means understanding God, our relationship with God, and the activities of that relationship. That is real humanitarian work. Manking must be informed of the nature of the body and the soul and the ncssities and goal of the soul. In this way, we can really serve humanity. We do not serve it by encouraging the animal propensities.

Hayagriva dasa: Comte felt that it was the working man, the çüdra, who is most apt to be the arbiter of Positivism, not the scientist or philosopher. He writes: “The occupations of working men are evidently far more conducive to philosophical views than those of the middle classes, since they are not so absorbing as to prevent continuous thought, even during the hours of labor.” Srila Prabhupada: How can the working man become an arbiter? Every working man requires some manager to direct him, and in Communist countries we have seen that there is a managerial class as well as a working class. If this is the case, how can the worker help us? He is always subordinate to some manager. Hayagriva dasa: Comte wanted to form working men’s clubs that would be dedicated to the philosophy of Positivism. These would form “a provisional substitute for the church of old times, or rather to prepare the way for the religious building of the new form of worship, the worship of humanity.” Srila Prabhupada: His conception of humanity is not very clear. What does he mean by humanity? What does the working class know of humanity? If by “humanity” he means the totality of all human beings, he must still admit that every human being has some individuality. Even if you consider all humanity to be the same, how will you account for individuality? Hayagriva dasa: Well, it is his contention and that of cummunism in general that all men are basically the same in relation to the state. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are all under the laws of the state, but their thinking, feeling, and willing are not under the state. Men think, feel, and will differently. how, then, can they be one? Of course, human beings have two arms, two legs, and on head, but the working of the brain differs according to the individual. It is not possible to adjust these differences and reconcile all humanity as a whole. Everyone will not be in total agreement. People have their own tates even in eating, sleeping, mating, and defending––to say nothing of thinking, feeling, and willing. If you try to force uniformity, you will create dissatisfaction. Hayagriva dasa: Comte felt that Positivism and Communism––which was then in it’s formative stage––could go hand in hand. He writes: “Positivism has nothing to fear from Communism; on the contrary, it will probably be accepted by most communists among the working classes… ” Srila Prabhupada: He speaks of a working class but not a managerial class. He wants a classless society, but he wants it populated only by working men. but the fact is that working men require direction, just as the legs and hands require directio ns from the brain. that is quite natural. It is not possible for the working classes not to be under someone’s direction.

Hayagriva dasa: Comte equated intellectual and moral improvement with material progress. He writes: “A nation that has made no efforts to improve itself materially will take but little interest in moral or mental improvement.” Srila Prabhupada: The standard of material improvement is not actually fixed. One person may be satisfied with certain material conditions, while another may be dissatisfied with the same conditions. The question is, “What should the standard of material life be?” As far as Vedic civilization is concerned, the material necessitites are eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. These are present in both the animal and hman kingdoms. Standards, however, vary, according to different cultures. Syamasundara dasa: Conte felt that we should deal only with information that can be verified by experiment, or demonstration. Srila Prabhupada: Then, how are these planets floating in the air? What is the scientific explanation for that? Who made this cosmic arrangement? If they don’t know, then what is the value of their scientific knowledge? Because they cannot answer these questions, they say that they are not worth knowing. Syamasundara dasa: Conte would feel that such knowledge is not very useful. Srila Prabhupada: But knowledge means finding out the source of knowledge, the source of everything. You are seeing only a portion of someone’s actions and reactions, but you do not know who that someone is. If you don’t know, you cannot pose as a man of knowledge. Syamasundara dasa: Conte is interested in knowledge dealing with sense phenomena, knowledge that can be directly, scientifically utilized. Srila Prabhupada: Well, naturally you can perceive a tree growing, but a man interested in knowledge wants to know the origin of that tree. One who does not or cannot know says, “It doesn’t matter,” but if you are serious about knowledge, it matters. Knowledge of the tree’s origin is certainly practical. We understand that a tree comes from a seed, but where does the seed come from? How is it that so much potency is given to the seed? Who gives that seed such potency? Syamasundara dasa: Is that knowledge useful? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Of course, it may not be useful for a fool. For a fool, such scientific knowledge is of no use, but for a real scientist, knowledge of the origin of things is most essential. Only a fool would say that such knowledge is useless. A scientific man wants to find the cause of things, whether knowledge of that cause is immeditaely useful or not. Higher knowledge has no value for an ordinary man. In this kali-yuga, the ordinary man is a fool. He thinks, “Why are people wasting their time searching for God?” For a fool, the search for God is unimportant, but for a scientist, it is most important.