amanpeter

Please accept my grateful obeisances, BB prabhu!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY RADHIKA!!! Wish I could offer you a bigger coloured font and pictures, but this will have to do... Ineptly yours, valaya

Sorry, prabhu, didn't notice your post until now. What I said was shared solely for humorous relief. Sometimes I get a little giddy, I guess, as you may have noticed. It all seems so impossibly chaotic at times, does it not? Hope you're O.K. Peter/valaya ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com

Might want to make that PRESCRIBED medicine, Mel, by a licensed physician!

Thank you for not grazing cows in this space!

Here on the comedy channel seems a far finer pasture to exercise bovine abilities than in Spiritual Discussions, however I feel saddened to find some in cow conciousness on Radhastami. Guess I'm probably just jealous of all you `talented` artistes, eh...? [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-26-2001).]

We pray for what is needed, knowing that everything depends on His Divine Grace. To escape our entanglement in the inferior external energy we must seek shelter in the superior internal potency, which is personified as Sri Radha and Her associates. Sincere tears are always helpful along with feelings of helplessness. This is the personal aspect in short. There is also a more technical side which I prefer to leave for others to explain. Peter/valaya [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-26-2001).]

...and you know He likes to dance!

Jayasriradhey's loaded, but not allowed...

Maybe time to return to that hippie mantra of the late '60s--"Better STONED than CLONED!" [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-25-2001).]

This seems relevant to previous discussions here. Hope you agree, prabhus. ********************************************* Last part of Sanga rec'd by Email: Q. Mahaprabhu gave a unique thing, manjari bhava and he gave a way of attaining it, siddha pranali followed by intense meditation on the guru given svarupa. Why do you object to this? A. We have no objection to this. We agree. The question is at what point the guru reveals one's svarupa. Nistha involves an ista devata. Ruci follows this kind of bhajan kriya. Ruci forms the basis of one's svarupa. The guru sees his disciple's ruci and helps him to realize his svarupa by teaching him how to cultivate that ruci. When asakti develops, one actually glimpses his svarupa and then enters into bhava bhakti where the bhava that constitutes one's svarupa is further cultivated., Bhava bhakti, although a distinct division of bhakti is nonetheless comprised of elements found in both sadhana bhakti and prema bhakti. Practice continues and bhava is ray of the sun of prema. No doubt one must contemplate in his sadhana that which he will attain in prema, but sadhana is not relative only to anistha bhajana kriya. Some of my Godbrothers received siddha pranali from Lalita Prasada Thakura, while other of his disciples who had been serving him for much longer had not. Why? Bhaktivinoda Thakura details a gradual development of bhakti in his Jaiva Dharma. At what point in the book does the principle character, Vijay Kumara, receive siddha pranali? It is at the end of the book. What stage of development is he in at that time? When did his lobhamayi-sraddha awaken, and at what stage of the intensification of his lobha was he given siddha pranali? One may be a kanista adhikari on the raga marg whose lobhamayi sraddha is komala (tender) and subject to alteration. It may not be advisable to give siddha pranali to this kind of devotee. Q. Isn't it true that because Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur never received siddha pranali diksa and could not give it to his disciples, he therefore developed another method? A. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura followed the instructions of Gaura Kishore das babaji, "You will realize your svarupa in the syllables of the Hare Krsna mantra." How do you know what he received or did not receive from Gaura Kishore dasa babaji? Q. Well, I have faith in the Gaudiya Mahajans like Narottama das and Bhaktivinoda who followed the tradition and not some newly developed method? A. And I have faith in those who awakened faith in my heart, from whom we both learned about Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Narottama das Thakura. Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum http://dailysanga.com/, or email editors@dailysanga.com.

I'm sorry, Jijaji prabhu. It was not my intention to disturb anyone. I take no sides myself. Let each be true to their own faith, whatever it may be. I'm not even aware of whose is what in this regard, only that some completely reject others for their supposed beliefs, even though these `beliefs` may be completely misunderstood by those who criticize. My own faith is simple, for it is in Divine Grace alone, without which I believe nothing is possible and through which anything can happen at anytime to anyone, regardless. Depth of realization is what's important and that's inevitably reflected in our interactions. Wherever we find that grace that allows us to fulfill ourselves, materially or spritually, we tend to fix our faith, yet in the absolute sense is that power/potency not originating from the same source? I consider Sri Radha as that source and the personification of Divine Grace, because I have faith in the possibility of my entering into a particularly intimate personal relationship with Her that attracts me, to the exclusion of all others. Let's hope that something positive can come from this thread, otherwise all are free to avoid it. ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-24-2001).]

Posted by Leyh: There's a difference between quality (first quote) and purity (second quote). Purity may be considered the highest quality which is obtainable only by Divine Grace, not by our own efforts or worthiness. In any offering, some attention to quality must be present. In bhakti, quality of heart is MOST important as that is the `sweetness` God is attracted to. By the Lord's acceptance of the offering, it becomes purified through Divine Grace alone. Only due to His Divine Grace will that purity become available which is PERFECTLY acceptable to God. It does not always manifest externally in ways that are visible to others who are not yet pure in heart. I believe it is most important not to confuse the EXTERNAL, which may be a show, with the INTERNAL, which must be sincere. There's a world of difference between emulating perfection and becoming perfect oneself. Beware the trappings of religion! Gaudiya vaisnavas understand that Krsna wants ONLY Radhika. Through our association with Her, we become acceptable to Him. Lord Caitanya was born under a neem tree, thus neem beads are associated with Him and because He overlooks offenses, chanting on such beads may be considered more acceptable to God, by some. I know a sanyassi guru in ISKCON that still only uses his first set of beads, made of neem wood, that Srila Prabhupada chanted on. Tulasi devi, on the other hand, is responsible in Goloka Vrndavan for making so many nice arrangements when Radha and Krsna meet. Therefore chanting on beads made of tulasi wood, the devotee can imagine participating in those arrangements, or pray to her requesting service to the Divine Couple. Of course, this is really a very advanced stage, but still one can always hope against hope... Follow your heart, Leyh prabhu, trust in your own sincere feelings and let your longing take you home. HARIBOL!!! valaya ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com

Received this in my Email and found many nuggets of nectar within. Hope you agree! Peter/valaya James Bean Moderator, Spiritual Awakening Instant Messenger ID: sant_mat_gnosis e mail: santmat@zdnetonebox.com ________________ ------ There is 1 message in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. The HEART of Mysticism "sant_mat_gnosis ( James )" <santmat@zdnetonebox.com> ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:05:30 -0000 "sant_mat_gnosis ( James )" <santmat@zdnetonebox.com> The HEART of Mysticism Sant Mat Fellowship: santmatfellowship ___________________ This is an article I wrote on the power of love and devotion to open us up to the spiritual domain. It's a long post so it'll be the only new post for a couple of days. Enjoy! Have a great weekend! ___________________ The Heart of Mysticism By James Bean (Copyright August 1997) Cultivating love is one of the central teachings of mysticism, East and West. In India, Masters often use the term "Bhakti," which means love and devotion. Students of spirituality are instructed how to develop love for the Creator and for all souls. They're taught that approaching spiritual exercises and meditation with an attitude of love will lead to a much more succssful spiritual practice. An ascetic attitude of discipline can achieve some results, but love concentrates the mind much more effectively. Love takes the difficulty out of one's practice. Instead of meditation being thought of as a "duty" or "chore" to be tolerated, it's transformed into joy, a divine love affair! The book "Enchanted Land," published by the MSAC Philosophy Group features encounters with several Indian mystics. I remain in awe of this particular quote from Yogani Mataji (Nirmala Pandit), a Radhaswami guru who now lives in Bombay. I often use this quote in my meditation classes. The author asked Mataji: "How can one sit so still, repeat only holy names and think of God constantly?" Mataji serenely replied: By falling in love, because when one is truly in love nothing but the Beloved can enter one's mind. So the secret of Surat Shabda Yoga and of mysticism is not necessarily 'practice and more practice,' but love. To be so devoted to one's Lord that nothing can stand in the way, this and nothing else is the truth of Sant Mat. The reason why love is so effective is, as many saints have revealed, the universe was created by love, is sustained by love, and is returning back to love; love is the essence of everything including our soul. Our true nature is love. Kirpal Singh, an Indian master popular in the 1960's put it this way, "Love is innate in our souls. God is love and our souls are the drops of the ocean of all Love, which is also love personified." The great 19th century mystic Shiv Dayal Singh, the founder of the Radhaswami movement said, "The essence of Spirit (Atma) and God (Paratma) is love (Prem). Bhakti and the Supreme Being are one. A genuine Master is the embodiment of love. You are also love in essence, so are all souls." (Sar Bachan Radhaswami Poetry) Spiritual practices like silent meditation can gradually transform the practitioner in profound ways. Meditation is the method used throughout the ages to re-identify with our soul, the spark of love within. "When we identify ourselves with our true essence we will discover the wealth of spiritual regions rich in knowledge modern science can only dream about." (Rajinder Singh) Instead of perceiving ourselves as being merely five dollars-worth of chemicals plus H2O, or a collection of neurons firing and molecules, we perceive who we really are: SOUL. This process of self-realization, re-identifying with the love-essence of our soul is viewed as one of the most important steps of our spiritual evolution. Who we think we are will determine the course of our lives, both inwardly and outwardly. Orthodox academic voices often portray our identity as solely materialistic: the 'five dollars worth of chemicals and neurons firing.' Other rigid or closed 'fundamentalist' belief-systems portray human beings as ugly sinners and ugly saints perpetually unworthy of partaking of divine mysteries, and that only after death will the meaning of life be revealed. This appears in the context of mysticism to be to little, to late. Fortunately, other alternatives exist! The approach of the mystical tradition transcends blind faith in limited belief-systems and encourages individuals to directly verify the existence of the soul, higher spiritual realities and God through personal contact with them. For mystics, the human body is a kind of laboratory where spiritual claims can tested for oneself. My favorite quote from The Nag Hammadi Library is found in The Book of Thomas the Athlete, one of the Gnostic gospels: Examine yourself that you may understand who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. How logical. We're advised to examine who we are and how we have come to exist in this body of ours. This admonition implies that human beings have access to higher intuitions and senses, through which we are able to make new spiritual discoveries -- that is, IF we are willing to make use of them. Contemplatives seek spiritual knowledge through meditation. This focuses all of one's attention upon the soul, that life force which makes us alive. The eastern way of self-knowledge is one in which the soul increasingly learns of it's true nature. The drop seeks to discover the ocean from whence it came -- the ocean of life. Mystics call this looking within process, "inversion." In this way, souls learn to know themselves as well as to gain perception of the oversoul, the Supreme Being. "To convey this soul/oversoul relationship the saints and mystics have resorted to various analogies. Jesus spoke of it in terms of 'father and son.' Shri Ramakrishna spoke of it in terms of 'mother and child.' Mira Bai spoke of it in terms of 'husband and wife.' Like St. Teresa of Avila and mystics throughout the world, St. John of the Cross depicts the relationship of the soul and God as that of lover and beloved, of bride and bridegroom. As the relationship develops, the lover awakens to his or her lover and is changed into love itself. This is the transformative power through which the human becomes divine." ("Streams Of Nectar," Darshan Singh) Many mystics have used the language of romance to describe the ineffable joy of divine love and union. The ultimate goal of mysticism is the union of the soul with the oversoul. In the Narada Bhakti Sutras, a twelfth century Indian scripture and manual of Bhakti Yoga, it describes this union as intoxicating. The soul "is completely immersed in the enjoyment of the bliss of the Atman, the truest and highest Self." This goal is reached in mystical states discovered or realized during contemplative meditation. Spiritual practice is done with an attitude of sincere love or a strong fervent desire and perseverance to approach the Supreme Being. Love removes all obstacles and forms a link with the Creator. The medieval Indian mystic Dadu composed many odes to this divine state of being: When the heart merges into the Merciful One, then no difference remains. Like ice dissolved in water, in God is merged the lover. God has become the anguished lover, and the anguished lover has become God. (Dadu, The Compassionate Mystic, RS Books) One of my most favorite books of Eastern love poetry is "Songs of Kabir," published by Samuel Weiser books. The translator, Rabindranath Tagore, was himself a great spiritual poet. Kabir asks: How could the love between thee and me sever? As the leaf of the lotus abides on the water: so thou art my Lord, and I am thy servant. As the night-bird Chakor gazes all night at the moon: so thou art my Lord and I am thy servant. From the beginning until the ending of time, there is love between thee and me; and how shall such love be extinguished? Kabir says: 'As the river enters into the ocean, so my heart touches thee.' Further to the West, the medieval Christian mystics also used the language of love to describe spiritual union with their heavenly Beloved. Saint John of the Cross, a Spanish mystic, spoke of "the touch of the Beloved as setting the heart on fire with love; as if a spark had fallen upon it." Christian mystics also agreed with their Eastern counterparts that the soul, through mystical union, becomes deified -- becomes divine. Saint John of the Cross said: And to make the soul perfect and to raise it above the flesh more and more, He assails it divinely and gloriously, and these assaults are really encounters wherein God penetrates the soul, deifies the very substance of it, and renders it godlike, divine. After reaching this exalted state he said, "The soul beholds itself as one immense sea of fire." (quotes from his classic, "Living Flame") Another example of love consciousness or Prem-Bhakti manifesting itself among the Christian saints is the 14th century English mystic Richard Rolle, who said: Among these delights which he tastes, moreover, he experiences in love so sweet, the secret sent into him from heaven, which no one here knows unless he receives it, and bears within himself the potion which intoxicates lovers rejoicing in Christ... The love of God takes up to itself with marvelous rejoicing the soul of the one whom it perfectly penetrates and sets it truly ablaze by the fire of the Holy Spirit, and does not permit it to stray for a moment from the memory of so great a love. (The Fire of Love, Richard Rolle) I recommend two textbooks on mystical tradition. "Mysticism" by Evelyn Underhill, first published in 1955, has become a spiritual classic on Christian and Sufi spirituality. Another beautiful book is "Streams of Nectar" by Darshan Singh, featuring chapters on 18 different saints of the Sant Mat, Sufi/Muslim, Christian, and Hindu traditions, SK Publications, 4 S 175 Naperville Road, Naperville, IL 60563 /// ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-24-2001).]

Same kind of thing happened to me when I first joined the temple. My mind was always asking questions internally, I guess to Prabhupada, and answers would come. Then the questions themselves just seemed to dissolve as they were forming. Not that I was ever really in the state Sri Ramana was indicating. Still, it was strange, like being satisfied before eating, just as I reached for the food... [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-23-2001).]

Great jumpin' jehosophats! Someone's been bitin' into some BAD burfi! We've slipped into the TWILIGHT ZONE!!! Don't worry, prabhus, I've been here before! Melvin's right, the key is all there in the Holy Names!!! C'mon, we got chantin' to do!

Shvu, are you speaking of Sri Ramana Maharshi and didn't he use to say that there is only ONE question we should ask ourselves, "Who am I?" I took this as a personal mantra for some time, even facing myself in the mirror while on LSD. Some interesting answers, for sure, but I believe Srila Prabhupada saved me from much confusion by showing me the highest truth, which contains all others, in the form of Lord Caitanya (as Krsna in the mood of Srimati Radharani) and acintya-bheda-bheda. In spite of attempting so hard to escape all that entails, I could not since all my life experiences after that `realization` simply continue to assimilate into that same philosophy centered in the relationship between Radha and Krsna, both personal and impersonal. What initially attracted me was the first book I read from Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, entitled "Nectar of Devotion". I heard of the `mood of the gopis` and became completely entranced! Unfortunately my involvement with ISKCON devotees inside and outside the temples was never particularly fruitful and I quickly became disillusioned by deceptive sankirtan practices, the attitude towards women, etc. etc. Besides, I was so attached to sex and psychedelic drugs that I could not honestly accept initiation nor remain in the temple for more than a few months at a time. My `falldowns` all occured alone however, on the outside. Another thing that I found impossible was focusing my love on Krsna, while it seemed my heart belonged to Radhika and always had. I knew nothing of Radha-dasi manjaris with their exclusive attachment to Her... Then some uninsured drunk driver knocked me off my motorcycle in the middle of the night, smashing one of the vertebrae in my back. That made everything much worse with pain pills and cocaine added to the mix. Not to mention an abrupt worsening of my attitude towards Krsna, whom I blamed for the `special mercy`... From out of the blue, without any reason I can see or motivation on my part, I ended up involved in a Rathayatra after several years completely apart from the devotees, chanting, or any other voluntary connection with Krsna (though I still couldn't shake Him internally). I found myself in the Toronto temple kitchen under the close, careful supervision of Apureva das who impressed me immensely with his ability to handle so many things at the same time, including his family, while maintaining perfect peacefulness emotionally. Previously I had admired sanyasis the most, but now I saw `householders` in an entirely different light. It was like finding calm in the eye of a hurricane and I attached myself to him personally like a life-preserver, serving and helping in any way I could to the point of exhaustion. For a few days we just cooked and cooked, with me napping beside tulasi devi's house upstairs when necessary. Of course, the time came for him to leave and I didn't know what to do since my initial blissful taste for devotional service had been reawakened, after 20 years, and I just couldn't go back to my empty sordid life of drugs, sex, and now alcohol. So I went in front of the dieties with my japa beads anad paced back and forth between them all, praying and crying that even suicide would be better than returning to my old habits, yet there was no way I could just move into the temple or even associate there, for so many reasons... I was keenly aware of all the intentional offenses I'd committed in my crazy desperate attempts to break free from what had so firm a hold on me, especially the ones directed against Srila Prabhupada. Some how in my heart I knew that only Srimati Radharani could give me shelter and forgive the unforgiveable, so I ended up just standing in front of Her diety form, crying and chanting and praying all at the same time. It was impossible for me to leave for there was no place to go but death, so I stayed for hours and hours with arotikes going on around me and the diety doors opening and closing while I lost track of time. Fortunately I was well-known to Bhakti-marg Swami and other older devotees, so they left me alone. Then an amazing thing happened eye to eye with Sri Radha that ended all my nasty habits in a flash, started me chanting hundreds of rounds a day, and transformed my whole perspective on Krsna conciousness. Shortly afterwards, many books came my way, including Nectar Books (translated by Dasaratha-suta das), which are exactly that and more. What I read seemed to confirm what I'd felt all along in my heart of hearts, about the absolute truth and the supreme position of Swamini Kisori. Perhaps I'll be able to share more later, prabhus, depending on your response. All was revealed previously on VNN forums as well as Dharma-mela and I'm afraid it was not appropriate. I would feel much better if others shared their personal `mystical` experiences here. Peter/valaya ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com

Bart Simpson: "Don't have a cow, man!" Actually, my favorite was the Italian.

The only action open to us is SURRENDER, realizing that eveything, spiritual and material, is wholly dependent on Divine Grace in any and all circumstances. We have no potency to do anything, except by Divine Grace! Devotional service uses us, we don't do devotional service! Either we identify with the internal potency or the external potency, that is our only choice; and in our present situation, where we are completely entangled in the external potency, we are actually totally helpless! What to do except cry desperately like a baby would for it's mother! Even that requires the help of Divine Grace, because we've actually managed to make ourselves comfortable to some extent in this wretched place! Ignorance is bliss, they say... The real question we must ask ourselves is, "What do we REALLY want and what are we willing to sacrifice to attain it?" Heart and soul don't come cheap, in fact we may already have lost both to this world of misery and illusion. Now what? How can I surrender myself with no self left to give? My heart has turned to stone! My soul belongs to Satan! If we take a good honest look at ourselves and our helpless/hopeless situation, surrender can become quite spontaneous out of sheer desperation! After who knows how many tears, hair pulling, banging our heads against the wall, etc. etc. we finally experience what we need, WHEN WE JUST CAN"T TAKE IT ANYMORE! Suicide, madness and worse may be required for some of us to come to that point... Otherwise, one can just continue on trying to accumulate good karma and avoid bad, maintaining a neat orderly and regulated life as much as possible with some good association, a little prasadam, occasional sevice, and so on. Eventually all necessary arrangements will be made by His Divine Grace, it's true, in spite of us. Krsna wants us even if we don't realize how much we want and need Him. It's just a matter of time for all of us. Some are just more impatient than others, I guess...

By the Divine Grace of Lord Caitanya, even the STONES danced! JAI GAURANGA! HARIBOL!

Chanting japa we gently finger each unique bead of our mala, 108 gopis here to help us realize our connection with Goloka. Srila Narayan Maharaj suggests we think of Radha crying in separation while chanting japa. Are we not also in separation along with our 108 gopi friends? What can we offer to Radha and these dear gopis here with us in the form of prayer beads except: HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE For us it may seem only a mantra, a technique, but for them it is water in the desert, Krsna Himself. We can help quench their thirst! We chant for Radhika and the other suffering gopis of Vraja. We chant for the devotees here, also hurting in separation. We chant for those who are lost in this world, for in this separation we become one with all. In other words we merge our pitiful little selves, through empathy and higher understanding, into a greater larger self and purpose. Forgeting about trying to perfect some technique in order to escape our own painful misery, we surrender ourselves to the Holy names in eternal slavery with the residents of Goloka Vrndavan, accepting their pain as our own. Thinking and feeling like this, even a little, we can lose ourselves in the Holy Names and enter a whole different perspective. JAI SRI RADHE!

Yes, certainly it's all about heart; but Hari prefers to steal it, especially when it belongs to Hara! In all circumstances we must somehow realize our absolute helplessness and unworthiness without Divine Grace. JAI RADHE!

CLONE the guru??? Holy science, Batman! The mind BOGGLES!!!

Surely this is the thirst spoken of by Swami Vivekenanda. With such one-pointed intensity and complete obsession, sucess is insured for ANYONE! Whatever brings us to this point, we must consider MERCY! All the tools in the form of guru, sadhu, shastra are here. We have only ourselves to blame for remaining in some semi-concious lethargic fog. If so-called `practical` service does not drown us in a similar state of divine madness, what is the point, prabhus? Should we become like so many `Christians` that Srila Prabhupada warned us against, wanting only our daily bread (organic whole-wheat, please!), maybe with a little extra jam (honey not sugar!)? Unless our God becomes truly ALIVE for us, how can we have the kind of highly personal relationship we seek in other embodied jiva souls, thereby transcending ties of family and friendship? Some will rationalize by saying God cannot be forced into revealing Himself/Herself, but I say that is exactly what God wants!!! We should DEMAND that love which is promised in all the scriptures and NEVER allow ourselves to be satisfied with any thing less than our own personal tangible vision of the Divine! Prabhupada used to tell us that if Krsna likes us He'll give us everything, but if He loves us He'll take everything away. Shall we let ourselves be bought off then by mere trinkets? I think not! Let us remember our true identies as part and parcel of Sri Radha and follow in the footsteps of Her maidservants. Accept no less! ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com

Wow! A whole thread for ME! Nobody ever gave me one before. Really, prabhu, you shouldn't have! I especially like this part--so wild and free!!!