bija

Quote by Theist: One thing that hasn't changed is that I still keep to fringe side of the Hare Krsna movement. Sometimes a little more in and sometimes a little more out. Maybe that is way this forum is so important to me. Even though I don't fit in to any camp or matha I can still come here, meet people and hear and talk about the Lord in a way that is not available anywhere else, 3D or cyber and it fits well with my urban hermit lifestyle. I needn't even leave my cave. = Srila Prabhupada's writings are redefining for me many of the ideals I had developed about the world. Saying this, I feel I still carry around alot of these ideals and that they do not promote the inner peace that Krsna consciousness does. For me Srila Prabhupada is a master teacher, and his words build on or redevelop many of the ideals which got me into so much trouble. But in a much more balanced way. I still have a long way to go to find that peaceful path and Srila Prabhupada has the key. For me he is a major siksa guru, and turning point. But the journey is progressive and ongoing so I am open to siksha as it reveals itself. Not so much, as I choose it to satisfy my own desires, but as it reveals itself by grace. This is an important key for me I feel. Anyway, this Fellowship is a place I have found that I can in some way fit in. Looking around for some years on forums, I watched this Fellowship for a couple of years on and off, and realised that it was non-sectarian and much more diverse than some other Hare Krsna forums that I had observed. It seems to be a good place for an open mind. This I like.

Quote by Theist: I have been thinking about this. Then I turned it around and it made more sense to me. It seems to me we have a guru to the corresponding degree that we give ourselves to the instructions of the guru. Possibly Guru can mean many things to the disciple, depending on our level of realisation. Presently this seems to be how it is for me. And as realisations of Guru grow and develop in my heart, my perceptions of who Guru is will develop. I think GaurangaKrsna knows our needs more than we know ourselves. So if we are sincere in a spiritual life and search for Guru, I feel the Lord will grant us the presence of a Guru suitable for our specific qualification. Or, the Guru will understand our situation well, and impart knowledge to us that is suitable. As we grow spiritually, Guru will reveal to us more of the message of divine love when we are ready to understand. I think it has been said that Guru is one. So Guru's divine teaching may come from various sources. And as we progress in understanding the Lord will guide us to these sources. And in our heart we will recognise them. So for me Guru is not a stagnant thing. But saying this, we may stop at some point in our lifetime if this is the Lord's specific wisdom and will for us. I think this is why we should honor and respect each individuals position in life, even if they may be situated in a different tradition. And we should be grateful, that by some good fortune and grace our hearts are open to the GaurangaKrsna conception of Godhead. Also not to forget, the Lord in the heart. To think of such wonderful devotees as Bhaktivinoda Thakura and their intimate dealings with Guru is a profound thing. The Lord in the heart being Guru that we all have access to, and can grow in relationship with.

The following verses and purport from AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation of the Bhagavad Gita (Bhagavad Gita as It Is) may be of some benefit in your research and also in answering your question number four to some degree: http://vedabase.net/bg/13/8-12/en

From your post and reading the verses and purports to Caitanya Caritamrita you have quoted, it can be seen how kindly Srila Prabhupada has instructed us to search out a Mahabhagavata as Guru. From the purport in CC Madhya 24.330 Srila Prabhupada says that Guru must be situated on the topmost platform. Uttama-adhikari/Mahabhagavata. From your above quote you say, "according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only become a diksha guru when the qualification is in place." So my question is, how are we to understand the underlined verses in the Nectar of Instruction purport that a neophyte or madhyama may also accept disciples, making sure that the candidate is not situated on a higher platform? Even if this is not so beneficial for the candidate. Has Srila Prabhupada implemented that his followers may only accept a mahabhagavata as guru? Or, is the process not so rigid as this? I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Considering the very high position of AC Bhaktivedanta, Theist's realisations should be given deep thought and consideration in my opinion. I think we can only begin to get a grasp of actually how fully empowered he really was. And his writings are also of the same standard, non-different from him. Theist's conclusions therefore should not be cast aside lightly. The points being brought out by Theist have been very enlivening and enlightening for me, even if this does not appear so in my posts. But saying this, understanding the truth of Srila Prabhupada is not such a basic thing and is dependant upon realisation in the heart. So I have taken an approach to these matters, dependant on my level of realisation, and have tried to keep my views as balanced as possible.

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Guest "As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected." (C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport) </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> quote by kulupavana :"do you understand the word mundane? do you really know what that quote really means? you believe a guru or his disciple can justify any behavior with that statement? the spiritual master in the line of an authorized parampara IS subject to many rules set by the parampara itself. otherwise he is bogus... can he have sex with young boys for example? eh?? remember? some Iskcon "spiritual masters" apparently thought so, finding justification for their debauchery by twisting the meaning of such quotes.... a guru can CERTAINLY be rejected on the basis of his behavior. That rule applies to all gurus." In studying the full purport of this verse, we see it is in reference to Isvara Puri. Isvara Puri is considered "fully empowered" by the Lord, in Srila Prabhupada's and Krsnadasa Kaviraja's understanding. Surely if the Guru is not a fully empowered Mahabhagavata he is subject to the rules and regulations, as you have pointed out Kulu. But the Guru who is fully empowered by his own Guru and the Lord is not subject to any rules and regulations. He does not have to conform to any set stereo-type. And rules and regulations, and abominable practices as you have mentioned would not be a consideration. He is fully empowered by the Lord and can preach in anyway he sees fit. Opinions vary on AC Bhaktivedanta himself. But if it is understood that he is a mahabhagavata and was fully empowered by the Lord and Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. Then we can begin to understand how and why he was able to implement so many practices as mentioned in the above posts. He was fully empowered and could implement, instruct and spread the Holy Name, in a suitable manner considering time, place and circumstance as he saw fit. These are the mysteries of the fully empowered Guru/Mahabhagavata, who is to be considered as good as the Lord. In my opinion AC Bhaktivedanta was such a rare soul. His example is much different than the souls who artificially placed themselves in such a high position and subsequently came under the power of the illusory energy and fell. The following is a quote from the purport to the above verse:

quote by guest "Yeah, there were some suppressed expressions of goddess worship at least in Judaism and Christianity. If I recall, King Solomon was a goddess worshipper and even built shrines for different goddesses. Several Israelites at his time were also worshipping the goddess (es); and this ended up causing a rift in the Kingdom, with the goddess worshippers being demonized in the canonized Old Testament. Patrarchial Judaism ended up winning." This process of Goddess worship referred to is worship of "Asherah" in the form of some pole or tree. Modern christian commentaries on the old testament refer to Asherah as a Canaanite Goddess. I was saw a TV program that was supposedly showing archeological evidence of this Goddess worship in ancient ruins. They said the ruins were Jewish. But there was some difference of opinion by experts with this conclusion. The program was also exploring a theory that this Goddess worship was originally a part of Jewish practice, but at some point Jewish scribes edited the texts to portray this worship as a foreign element. And that this Asherah worship did cause the rift in the Jewish kingdom. There are many varying opinions on these conclusions, but nevertheless very interesting.

quote theist,"Bija there are ways to help soften the heart of your loved one. The Lord in your heart is the Lord in their heart and no one knows better than He. Pray to be His instrument in this and watch the inspiration that comes to you." Thank you Theist for your wise advice. I will take this advice to heart and pray that the Lord may guide me. I consider myself a total beginner at spiritual life, prone to making many mistakes. And I have definately made many mistakes in my sharing approach with my family member. Your advice reminds me to use wisdom, to pray for guidance, and seek patience. And above all, to not approach this situation in a neophyte fanatical way. Thank you.

quote by vijay"What about one titled free flow of faith or something like that. Which means that any system suited for the person will do. I.e someone can go back home through siksa from books, another may need personal guidance from a pure devotee." Vijaya's above comment seems to be a middle way. As per quotes in similar threads lately, Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Lord Caitanya himself say formal initiation may not be necessary. If a jiva is advanced enough due to various reasons this is the case. But are such souls a common thing? Arjuna, Pariksit, Bhaktivinoda, and such are not common souls. If the jiva is advanced enough he will know if his position is in line with Bhaktivinoda's comments that formal initiation may not be necessary. But it seems that if the position that, Srila Prabhupada's books are all that is needed and the formal initiation process is unecessary, is taken to the extremity, then the process of formal initiation can possibly be placed in a 'minimised light'. When in fact Srila Prabhupada teaches (formal diksha is taught in his books) with balance and implements the diksha ritual. Why have many bonafide acarya's taught and implemented the process of formal diksha. One reason I can think of is, mercy, mercy for the "fallen conditioned" souls. What may be the case for one soul, may not be the case for another. And this is why I tend to want an option in the poll, similar to Vijaya's suggestion. If any approach is taken to the extreme without the overall picture taken into consideration, we can end up with division, extremism, and separation. Also, AC Bhaktivedanta has recommended that in seeking out a spiritual master we should search for a Mahabhagavata. But he also does say that this is also not an absolute. So to choose one or the other of the "Iskcon options" in the poll is not such a simple issue. Vijaya also makes an interesting point when he says, "Ritual diksha is overated." The ritual is not some magic pill. It is the essence within the ritual that holds the potency, not the formality itself. And I am grateful that some members on this forum have shed some light on this. In essence, what I am saying is that if we tend to sway to extremities, balance will be lost. Balance can be found in the, instruction, implementation, and the way the acarya's followed the process themselves. As an example for us. Here can be found true sadhu sanga. True sadhu sanga being the process of following the acarya's or sadhu's divine example, and moulding our life by it to the best of our ability. Through the supersoul in the heart, each of us will know whose example we are best to follow. These are just some thoughts I have had in my heart. My knowledge of scripture is limited, therefore I am no authority. But I have seen many times over in my spiritual journey that when people tend to lean overly to one particular theme, or words from scripture, their views can become unbalanced. Disregarding the overall purport, and even critical of practices that do not align with their particular stance.

Here is the link again, just click: http://youtube.com/watch?v=p5fLz-Hy2AA&search=narayana%20

The divine as reflected in the Vedas is the same as that in the Puranas. It is clearly a matter of choice as to which set of mysteries one chooses. The joys of Vraja are all inside of you in reality. Real awakening means becoming asleep to the phenomenal world. The world is born out of the sheer desire of Shiva. Many are the paths to mukti. The daityas opted for conflict. The yogis took the path of jnana and vigyan. The gopis took to love. Human birth has been achieved after a tedious journey. Kicked around as a dog or a cat, bound to work as an ox, neighing for food as a horse and stretching for foraging as a burdened camel, pulled by the hook as an elephant we have finally arrived here. Still we are not cognizant and respectful of the Lord. We know not how to bow in reverence or dance in exuberant joy to the melody of His names. Indulging in clothes, ornaments and perfumes we fail to live a life of gratitude. Shun mere religious disciplines for they are all for self- maintenance. It is more important to search and realize the Fundamental Truth. Association with those who are non conducive to your sadhana is worse than consuming poison. The latter can only destroy the body. Association with the good on the other hand can destroy demerits accumulated over several births. Be selective in your beliefs for many have devised theories and philosophies to suit their own ambition. If you have not tried to see Him, mere recitation of His names is of no value. Each time you visit the temple and ask God to help you with one problem or the other. How is it that your misery has not yet abated? Outwardly you sing, pray and show holiness yet inwardly you harbor many a concern! When life is good you say it is by the grace of God. When ill luck comes your way why then do you say it is due to karma? All these acts are merely mechanical for you have not asked yourself as to who you are in reality! He is to be called the Vaishnav who sympathizes with the affliction of others. He tends to the sorrows of others but gets not conceited in that act. He tolerates others with humility. He does not censure anyone. His words and mind are steadfast. Such a person’s mother is indeed wealthy. With equanimity he has given up his cravings. To him all women are his mothers. Words of untruth never issue from his mouth. He lays not his hand on the wealth of others. He is free from passion and delusion. His mind is dispassionate from conviction. He readily claps his hands to the names of Ram. In his body reside all holy places. He is free from greed and deceit as also from lust and anger. Says Narsi the sight of such a person enables the seer and his entire clan to cross sansar.

You know Don, I said that we gotta listen to all the diverse voices in the world. The forum is a good place, slowly realizing mine is not the only voice. Music is great. Wish I still had those old records to see what they were really saying. Wish the fundamentalists who convinced me to get rid of them had listened to them too. In the early days they may have even realised their similar style to Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast, and done a bit of head banging with me. Something happened a couple of years later, and I started to drift off to the Wonderous Stories and melodies of Jon Anderson. They(fundamentalists) did not care to listen, they did not understand(Jon). Anyhow, please excuse me for the tangent;let's back to the theme of the conversation.

Institutionalism makes things complex. Was there institutions just after Lord Caitanya? I don't know. I know there was some gatherings and councils. But saying this, both Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada started institutions. And there is that verse(I don't have it at hand) where Bhaktisiddhanta points out the flaws in institution. They well knew. I guess they could see the practical need for institution to get the ball rolling! To get the message out there! Institution is not an eternal principle. They come and go. So at some point maybe the practical need these two great Acarya's saw, may not be that necessary in the future. Some may argue this though, and say the institution is necessary to keep the standard of truth. The ground is fertile, and very ready for Guru's from no institution, to instruct disciples to become Guru, and keep the thing spreading out that way. With no institutional boundaries. I feel anyway. Maybe there is room for both approaches. The nature of the institution is that growth and change can be a slow process. Full empowerment to Iskcon. Still a movement in it's early stages(40 odd years). May it grow and flourish.

You know Kula-pavana, normally I don't like to post on these Islamic topics. I can get real fire and brimstone.And very passionate. Maybe I should stick to song lyrics. It's funny,years ago, on my spiritual questioning and journey I spent a couple of years with some fundamentalists of the western kind. During that time my entire record collection left my hands. The collection was the true spiritual journey. Kulu-pavana, you are the reason I posted the Bono lyrics in the Lay Down Your Guns Thread. Why? Because one time on a thread I saw you post some Jon Anderson lyrics. In all my years living in this one horse town, I have never met anyone who also like's Jon Anderson. You were the first! Thank God for the internet. Justice to the left of you Justice to the right Speak when you are spoken to Don't pretend you're right This life's not for living It's for fighting and for wars No matter what the truth is Hold on to what is yours (yes-hold on(a rare touch of sarcasm)) You can mend the wires You can feed the soul apart You reach It can happen to you It can happen to me It can happen to everyone eventually (Yes-It can happen)

Thank you for sharing your insights Avinash. We receive gifts in many ways, and to hear anothers perspectives, on beauty, science, and the absolute is a treasure. I would like to share a little on beauty and simplicity. One of my main interests at the moment is a concept, or a way of seeing the living entity as an organism that evolves. And how sometimes the organism will go through, spiritual emergence to reach it's potential and part in relation to the whole. For certain individuals there can be a block in the process of spiritually evolving and the organism can experience a complete reworking of the self and it's concepts. Personally I encountered this phenomenon, which some open minded proffesionals call a spiritual emergence crisis. Which in essence is a positive encounter for the living organism. To promote it's evolution and growth. This process occured over a ten year period for me. It involved a total reworking of the full self. This is of great interest for many people either proffesionaly or personally. One thing it did to me is, slow my life right down. It gave me time to appreciate nature, to see beauty in insects, bird life, meaningful relationships, to see a great design in and through all things. To look up at the sky at night and be in awe at the vast space between unlimited stars. There is a greater force at work in this fragile cosmos, than pure self will. Personally I am not so concerned how people define this living force, but in my encounters it is tangible and real. Science is a good thing, especially when it lines up with the greater design and purpose. Thank you for sharing your insights. The many fields of science compliment and uplift the great diversity and wonder manifest in this universe.

Look at the blue fur on this insects body. This is beautiful. Beauty from beauty.

2. It is time to suggest practical remedies to Teja as this person has already worked his/her way through Bhajans, prayers and Mantras with no positive result. It is very simple - if Krishna will not cure your headache, you need to see a doctor. quote shvu Fair call Shvu. I encountered the medical opinion of some religionists some years back. Followed their advice, stopped medical treatment, and the consequence was that my illness intensified and it took four years of rehabilitation to fully recover. Very bad advice. The middle path is the best advice I can give. Especially with issues that deal with psychic dimensions, spiritual emergence crisis, or mental illness. Whatever label you want to give it. If necessary use the methods as complimentary. Compliment your spiritual life with modern medicine. Or vice versa, compliment your illness with spiritual life. This will help avoid the extremes of total collapse or over treatment of some toxic medicine. A point to be made though, is the definition of illness. Western science has it's model and Vedic tradition has it's model. Teja, be very wise in your decision. Only you know what you are going through. No one else.

A wild fire is raging in the world at the moment. Why add more fuel to the fire? Keep adding the fuel to the fire with these anti this anti that posts. And if the fire starts lapping at your toes, don't complain! These are the laws of the material world are they not? Label me what you want! Radical sympathiser, extreme religionist! Complete idiot! Condemn my "conscience" if you choose. We gotta start listening to the big picture. To the diverse voices in the world. If not this planet is eventually going to be a manifestation of Hell. The only real enemy is ourselves. We are all in this boat together. God is one. You choose what sort of consciousness you want! Thanks for posting this letter, Kulapavana. It has given me something to think about.

I don't know if I can take it I'm not easy on my knees Here's my heart you can break it As you enter this life I pray you depart With a wrinkled face And a brand new heart We need Love and Peace Lay down Lay down your guns All you daughters of Zion All you Abraham sons The TV is still on But the sound is turned down And the troops on the ground Are about to dig in And I wonder where is the love Love and Peace (Bono)

"There is more than meets the eye." It is easy to use terms like impossible regarding subtle psychic phenomenon. For example, there was a tv show on truffles the other day. How would I know what they really taste like, until I have tasted them. Same thing with psychic phenomenon.

Thank you Guest. This conversation makes a clear path of understanding. Very relevant to recent discussions on this forum. And enlightens my understanding. I undertand the full conversation except for the last sentence in this paragraph. What is..."but those that did not go to him and hear from him, they will have to go through the proper channel" actually mean. What process is this refering to? Thank you for your time Guest, much appreciated.

Jaya, the truth sings. For years I used to think...I have to receive the holy name, I must get formal initiation to receive Krsna Nama...oh dear, how will I ever find a spiritual master considering I have no contact with devotees let alone a spiritual master. The truth was right before me, in those beautiful books I had collected. But I had been misinformed, by the misinformed. Then oneday I read that Bhaktisiddhanta said that if you do not have physical association with the saints. Read scripture and you will have association. I picked up Caitanya Caritamrita and read about the great Caitanya tree and all the saints. I realised then that it is all about siksha, the rest will follow if it is Krsna's will for the aspirant. Another thing I would like to share. But will not go into details because many Gaudiya's disagree with the practice. And I cannot be bothered with debate and criticism of my loving Spiritual Father/Master. Mercifully he imparted to me a name of Krsna at the time of formal initiation. A name which has become my peace and shelter. The interesting thing is Gurudeva did not receive this particular Name from his guru in a diksha/formal initiation. He actually heard this Name from his own Gurudeva through his vani and the writings in the Guru Parampara. And both these sources had full realisation of the said Name. Controversial, yes, but this is the lineage and process I am following. Gurudeva also said that the Name did not require the process of diksha, but one reason that he imparted it through diksha to me, is so I may have a close bond with him. And follow his siksha and process in chanting the Name very closely. And also he wished to intimately pass his own realisations on to me. A formal process; by no means, but a personal and intimate process, which I am grateful for. Oneday I may aspire for Harinama diksa, Krsna willing, but do I find any inadequacy in my spiritual practice and chanting of the Mahamantra presently. No I do not. But if it is Krsna's will and mercy, I will approach Gurudeva for Harinama diska when that time comes.

Yes.

quote Govinda Dasa . im very poor and have bad health, had a violent life and so on, but i have Krsna in my life.. Similarly I Govinda dasa. Sometimes we seem to think in relative consciousness of nationhood etc. We need to go beyond the boundaries of american consciousness, european consciousness, australian consciousness etc, and weighing our situation up with our own backyard. If I did not have a job, had poor health, so forth and lived in some parts of the world would I be surfing the net? Don't think so? Yes you do have Krsna in your life Prabhu, you have a beautiful quality of gratitiude. Your story says alot. Thank you.

Quote by guest If you study the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur it become clear that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's primary connection with Sri Guru is with the Caitya Guru, not with Bipin Bihari or Srila Jagannatha das Babaji. This is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur taught and wrote. I will provide the quotes later, if you desire. Could you please post some more Guest. I was taught from BR Sridhara's Sri Guru and His Grace that the disciplic line in discussion is siksha not diksha. Is the word diksha being misused in regards to Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Bhaktivinoda Thakura in this thread or not? If so, is this distorting or minimising the concept of the siksa disciplic succession? I would like to know the truth of this, otherwise we may just grasp at ideas in this thread to suit our own agenda without being founded in correct knowledge..dangerous territory. Also guest you may be able to answer another question: who did Bhaktivinoda receive Krsna Nama from. Was it Caitya Guru, Bipin Bihari, or Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji? Or all of the above. Could you please leave a tag or name with your post, this would be helpful.