bija

I undertand what you are saying Govinda Dasa. This pastime of Lord Caitanya does show very much openess. It is a wonderful pastime of how we can relate to each other regarding such discussions. Caitanya set a perfect example. This pastime can be found in Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-lila, ch. 18 around text 154 onward. www.vedabase.net/cc for those who may be interested. Regarding the claims that sufism existed before Islam as an ancient teaching; and that kabbalah was the original teaching spoke to the first man, that was lost over time. The following verses from Bhagavad Gita are relevant I feel. The parallels are very evident. BG ch 4, verse 1: The Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna, said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu instructed it to Iksvaku. verse 2: This supreme science was thus recieved through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears lost. verse 3: That very ancient science of the relationship with the supreme is today told by Me to you because you are my dear devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science. verse 8: To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millenium after millenium. Regarding the different kinds of avatara's that descend; in relation to our discussion saktyavesa avatara is of interest. Acarya's in line from Bhaktivinoda Thakura have said that Prophet Muhammad was a partial saktyavesa avatara (empowered incarnation). Are these inner circle teachings we are discussing actually remnants, or, teachings adapted to time and place, of what was actually spoken by Lord Krsna to the sun god, Vivasvan? Maybe too much speculation here, but good food for thought.

In regards to the original question and the words "inner circle." As far as I have read about sufism, these teachings were explained to an inner circle of Mohammed's followers. As Mohammed is regarded as the seal of the prophets, these sufi teachings(the inner meaning of the prophets teachings) were only taught to a select few who were "qualified" to understand. Here is the difference with Caitanya's movement. He distributed love of God without consideration to one and all. And by practicing what He taught, one's qualification would develop. From what I have read of Jewish Kabbalah, there are writings that this teaching is the "original teaching" as taught to the first man Adam. So it teaches that the Kabbalah is the original teaching. Which, I am speculating from memory here, may have been lost over time( if someone knows differently, please let me know). So possibly no direct comparison as inner circle teachings may be quite correct. But at a closer study of each tradition there are comparisons on a mystical inner level to some degree. I have not commented on Saivism, Vedanta etc. because I am not qualified to comment about them.

www.dailydarshan.com thank you very much.

"For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted." The above quote pasted by Puru dasa is very essential. The siksa recieved must enhance what was previously revealed by guru maharaja. It seems to be a very common practice in some spiritual circles today(not neccesarily refering to Vaisnava here), to be eclectic in approach. A kind of relativism, of taking a bit from here and there to satisfy one's own desires. And due to this approach of accepting a variety of guru's to satisfy one's own desires the spiritual seeker will most likely be misguided or cheated. As stated in your post it is important to recognise the substance of the teaching or the plurality of guru's may be nothing more than this relative eclectic approach.I am sure any bonafide teacher will warn against such an approach.

here's a puzzle for those into dots, draw four straight lines (without lifting the pencil from the paper) which will cross all nine dots. Its bound to send you dotty! [ATTACH]1093[/ATTACH]

Krsna is understood as the "sweetest" conception of the Godhead. The One who relationship with, can be the most sweetest.

Sephiroth, In the picture you display in your avatara box. The second two circles from the top, do they also signify the "one" becoming "two".

Jaya Govinda Dasa, I find this so wonderful. That such rare treasure is now so freely distributed.Regarding the masses not taking part in it, here is a section of AC Bhaktivedanta's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.16 http://vedabase.net/sb/1/5/16/en which I find interesting: I think so too.

Thank you for this nice piece of writing Guest. Could you guide me as to where this comes from. I would like to read more.

From the back cover of Teachings of Lord Caitanya: The back cover of this book is obviously targeted at the general masses, as it does not mention that Gauranga Mahaprabhu is Krsna (God) himself. But nevertheless it is a very nice piece of writing gloryfying Mahaprabhu. Lord Gauranga for me is the greatest mystic, as He taught the inner essence (love of God), and so mercifully offers this sweetness to one and all by the spreading of Lord Krsna's Holy Names. All glories to Lord Gauranga:

Thank you Puru for pointing out the correct verse in Nectar of Instruction. Also, what a wonderful verse you have bought forward from Sri Guru and His Grace. I recall some years ago when I first recieved a copy of this book, and how it opened my heart to a deeper understanding of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. As to how this is a growing, developing and expansive philosophy, and as to how siksa comes from many sources by the grace of God to fully enlighten our hearts and lead us homeward. I find these writings so balanced and thoughtful, so much so that by gleaning a tiny bit of their purport many contentions in the heart can be obliterated.

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Could someone please assist me how to put pictures here in full size correctly, I am still learning how to work computers. Thanks.http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/ashycook.topcities.com/cartoons/bird.flu.1.htm

Dear Devotee, thank you for being so open and honest about how you feel. Your desires to please Krsna are a real bonus. In trying times in our life there can be no greater shelter. Please take care of your health, and be very gentle and kind to yourself as you progress along the spiritual path. To walk this path, nurturing and being gentle to oneself is a key I have found to be very very useful. Krsna loves you and sees you as "you truly are" beyond this material covering. Use everything at your disposal to enhance your spiritual life. Even, from experience, if this means seeking the help of others to assist us in our well being. Nurture and care for your mind and body by all means, so that you may use the mind and body as tools for your spiritual growth. The slow and steady win the race. Journey this spiritual path one step at a time and oneday all your current trials will be only faint memory. I can guarantee if you carry on, oneday you will relish peace and bliss in your heart. Please take care. Theists post#9 has many insights and I would recommend reading it over some more. Here is one great key from it:

As we gradually move along the spiritual journey we can become aware how lacking in love this material world can be. This is why scripture teaches us to look beyond imperfections, to see the true nature behind this material cover. At the same time, it is easy to say this but not so easy to put tolerance into practice. One meditation I use that can help is to see what part I have to play in all this. To be reflective, and to acknowledge that somehow I have found myself in this material world too, along with everybody else. And by acknowledging my part in all this, begin working on myself along side with practicing tolerance of shortcomings. And most importantly be very gentle and kind to oneself. All the best!

This is classic! I think I would have a hard time even with google to pass this.

These are some very nice books you are reading. There is a website I am learning from which has the book Madhurya Kadambini. I would like to read it eventually, is it nice? Currently I am reading a book called Mahamantra Yoga compiled by my spiritual teacher. And I am reading a collection of AC Bhaktivedanta's small books which I collected from an oppurtunity shop. It has been excellent working my way through these and to relish his mood somewhat. And also to nurture my faith as to how wonderful this Krsna conscious path is.

nekozuki, I have got a fair share of sectarian witch hunting directed at me over the years. But these days I try not to get so upset about it. I guess it all comes down to what our qualification is (read below), as to where we are situated regarding these things. I feel very fortunate to have been guided to some balanced teachings from a disciplic succession which has helped me grow a little. The article below has been a great blessing. Sectarianism in Spirituality by Shrila Sacchidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Shri Krishna Samhita Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards-alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing on another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in varoius practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have recieved, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian.

A couple of weekends ago while visiting family Bruce Almighty was on the tv. I'd never seen it before and got a good laugh too. I only got the audio of your clip gHari, but yes.. when I watched the film I thought this was a gem too.

ThusArtThou, it is really interesting and refreshing to hear from you, and to hear about your journey. It is exciting and inspires me onward with my journey. One thing I like about this Audarya Forum is that there is such diversity of approach, but at the same time many things are in common.

here is the link:www.bedegriffiths.com There is a local catholic priest where I live who is a bit of a local legend. A real open hearted nice person you might say. His best friend who he went to seminary college with became a disciple of Bede Griffiths. During the sixties elements of their church began to open up to different faiths, especially eastern faiths. But unfortunately this is not the case with all. As Apep is expressing some can be quite fanatical and you may find this more with fundamentalist christians. I had several meetings with this particular catholic priest and had some wonderful conversations. When he found out that I practiced bhakti yoga his face lit up and our conversations became sweet. Also I met many others in his congregation who were very open minded and interested in many things. Most of them were interested in the Benedictine way of life and some had even practiced christian meditation as taught by the Benedictine monk, John Main. www.wccm.org Without having to sacrifice or dilute down one's beliefs, or even make a mixed bag of things; personally I am interested in inter faith dialogue.

Jaya!

Moving and soul shifting words...I think so too. Could you please tell me where this verse comes from? Bhagavad Gita chapter 10 verse 21: Of the Adyitas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, of the Maruts I am Marici, and among the stars I am the moon. Bhagavad Gita chapter 13 verse 18: He is known as the illuminator of even the illuminaries. He is known as the unmanifest, beyond even the darkness. He alone is the fundamental principle of knowledge and the knowable, and He is knowable by the aforementioned practices defined as knowledge. He remains situated within everyone's heart as the Supersoul, Paramatma. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9(the hidden treasure) verse 2: Know this knowledge as the supreme wisdom and the supreme hidden treasure. It is perfectly pure, and although beyond the purview of sense perception, it is the object of direct perception (by those senses which are eagerly disposed toward devotional service[bhakti]. It is the efficacy of all religion, joyfully accessible, and completely devoid of mundane nature. You shared how you find the words of scripture "moving and soul shifting", this is wonderful! I find chapter nine of the Bhagavad Gita also inspires such sentiments. All the best with your quest.