bija

Here is some food for thought from Sri Guru and His Grace, BR Sridhara Maharaja. Chapter Ten Instructing Spiritual Masters Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I was under the impression that in your teaching there must be an unbroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contained only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical discrepancies? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus. Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing is siksa, or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in connection, the desired result will be produced. We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available. In the Bhagavad-gita and especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement, but gradually by the enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find that it has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh movement. Again, when I find that it is becoming degraded by the adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my representatives to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness movement." What is Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge. The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is, wherever it may be.

"Concerning the need for such a preceptor, Sri Mahäprabhu says that though formal initiation may not be necessary,still a guide is essential in näma-bhajana." Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Straightforward.....formal initiation may not be necessary. As per the revealed scriptures. But the question must be asked, "why did many perfect souls including great Acarya's and Lord Caitanya Himself take up the process." Surely as an example for us. But saying this, for very fortunate souls (please read the question and answer I posted for details) formal initiation may not be necessary. Lord Gauranga and Bhaktivinoda say this very thing(as per Hari Nama Cintamani) in your post. But who is capable of saying who are these "very fortunate souls" or who are not; it is something I would not like to comment on. For obvious reasons. That is the Lord's hand. This is the reason I was not being straightforward, and also because my use of words and answering you is not such an easy skill for me. It is territory I do not wish to go. Sacred Land. It may be possible that such a rare soul could be a participant in this discussion board(who Knows), you could be one; I do not know. Please try to understand what I am saying here, from my heart. I have a feeling you may perceive me as having a particular stance and bias in these matters; if so it is not a factual perception. If you perceive me as taking the stance that there is no hope without formal initiation or that it is absolutely necessary, this would be wrong. I am trying to be as sensitive to your views on these matters as much as within my ability. And saying this, I still do not know fully your heart or motivation in these matters. But, "still a guide is essential in nama-bhajana." Why is this. One reason I have pointed out(let's use Srila Prabhupada as an example). They can teach us how to approach Krsna Nama. ie: CC Adi Chapter 8 verse 31 purport. Nitai-Gaura Nama Tattva.

I humbly beg you Theist, do not try to catch me out by the play of intellect if this is at all in your heart. You will surely defeat me and shame me. I had hesitations about entering this discussion with you because of this. I have given you my answers clearly in my posts, please read them carefully. I am not here, or on this forum to debate over such matters, but only in an attempt for friendship, association and very very basic offering of some service.And I strongly emphasize, I am no scholar or expert on Bhaktivinoda's great books. Just a soul with minimal association who has come to Audarya for fellowship. Making the best of a bad bargain living here, in a conservative christian majority, country town.

Yes, I understand this. I do the same, my relationship with Prabhupada is siksha not diksha line. Sometimes though I truly question about this siksha I profess( am I fully taking siksha-gradually,hopefully.) First of all, let me quote bija: You see, this is where I think the seed of the holy name was originally planted in my heart. From the books. And, inconceivably also the seed was planted there at the time I received diksa( as I have said before not Harinama ). So this is inconceivable, Krsna nama is one, Guru is one. It is there but not fully manifest due to the mountain of offenses in the heart of the sadhaka. No fault with Krsna nama. Mountains of offences. Gaura Nama Tattva is the key. Bhaktivinoda is very clear about this in the Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya chapter one: One may worship Krsna life time after lifetime and never achieve divine love of Krsna (krsna prema). This is because in the course of one's worship, he is sure to commit many sins and offences. And one who chants the holy name of Krsna can achieve the ecstacy of divine love only if he chants without offences. The worship of Sri Caitanya, however is much different-by worshiping Sri Caitanya, even a soul plagued by offenses attains the treasure of love of Godhead. As soon as one cries out "Nitai-Caitanya!" divine love of God begins searching him out. Even offenses cannot block his progress, and soon he sheds tears of ecstacy in divine love. By the mercy of Sri Caitanya offenses soon disappear, and the heart is cleansed and filled with divine love. No one can live in the present age of kali-yuga without committing innumerable sins; therefore, no one can be delivered without calling out the name of Caitanya. And so I see no other way, no other way, no otherway for deliverance in this age of Kali than to chant the name of Sri Caitanya, worship Sri caitanya, and follow Sri Caitanya's teaching. This is the verdict proclaimed by the revealed scriptures. This is why I continually stress reading http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en ,please read Srila Prabhupada's purport very carefully. He strongly emphasizes Bhaktivinoda's point over and over. And AC Bhaktivedanta's purport is following Bhaktisiddhanta's purport, who is following Bhaktivinoda's teachings. Prabhupada so mercifully gave the Panca Tattva Mantra, and so much more in this purport. Do not take it lightly, here is the key. If suddha Krsna nama is not manifesting in the heart of the sadhaka it is due to not taking full shelter of Gaura Tattva and Gaura-Nitai Nama. Mountains of offences. Srila Prabhupada is a great Mahabhagavata and he can implement, teach or deliver Krsna Nama in any way he chooses. He is fully empowered, is he not? He can give Krsna Nama any way he chooses. But he has left us instructions to follow. And Gaura Tattva is strongly emphasised in them. In some circles this Gaura Tattva seems to be not emphasized so much. When I met Iskcon devotess 14 years ago they did not even mention Gauranga. Sadly I gave up chanting the Hare Krsna Mantra very soon, due to lack of taste and mountains of offences, and not being taught Gaura-Nama Tattva( which in my opinion is the great Key - the secret of all secrets).

Didn't think you were ritvik minded. Can't put any label on you, just Theist.

Yes, as I have said to you before in reference to conversations with my born again christian friends years back. "I am being born again continually." Used to love saying that to them. True spiritual life is like this. Nava...ever new, ever fresh. I think I relate to some degree in what you are saying. Thanks for sharing. Liked very much the Guests post from Sridhara Maharaja's writings, says alot about all this. Diverse manifestation of Guru and developing the vision to see Guru in many places. You bring this point out alot in various word forms. It's a good one.

The words "exclusively firm faith", are interesting.

This is my point in some way. It depends on the individual soul in question. You see, my position is that I have very minimal faith. Always have had. But through reading and chanting it is growing. I take solace that as Lord Jesus Christ says, "Faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain." It's funny Theist, I thought...mmmm...will I post a reply on this thread. Then I thought, yeah, why not! What I glean from your realisations is your great faith in Srila Prabhupada, surely this is a qualification in your above mentioned quote. You are very fortunate. Lord Gauranga is dealing with me somewhat different, and surely this is due to His Great Wisdom as to my position and needs. It is good to feel His loving care. I long for the day that GaurangaKrsna's forms manifests when chanting His Holy Names. Until that day I will continue to chant and nurture the seed, that was originally planted from Srila Prabhupada's and BR Sridhara Maharaja's books.

Really sound advice from the Guest. Especially the insights of Judaism mentioned. As the higher spiritual love between jiva's develops, the material attraction of sex can become somewhat much more insignificant in comparison. Look very deeply into your wife's spiritual inclinations, honor them, appreciate them and love them. She is obviously a very special soul honoring your spiritual growth and choice. If you do this, over time the external difference in your practices will not be so contradictory. You and your partners divine romance with the divine will become the central theme to the relationship. But for this to blossom fully, both of you are responsible and need to practice your spiritual lives sincerely. I'm sure you are already!

Saying all this, there is much more in Bhaktivinoda's verse than just the initiation issue. I would love to hear more realisations about other topics in the verse also, as my realisations are minimal.

Here is the forum conversation I mentioned, I hope it sheds some light on Bhaktivinoda's verse. It is the same question and answer I posted in our last conversation about the Holy Name and initiation, please do read it carefully....

Theist, the quotation starts of with the sentence, "The case is different....". Could you possibly post some preceding verses so we can read what this is alluding to and the context. And if possible direct us where in the Hari Nama Cintamani these verses are. I am interested to understand this very special verse also. One of my spiritual teachers students asked a question to him a while back about initiation and the Holy Name. His response was liberation can be gained from the Name without initiation. I know that the above verse is not referring to liberation but much much more. He seemed to stress the importance of initiation to receive the Guru's, how do you say it, divine realisations of love in the Holy Name. But the closer I read his reply, he seemed to leave room that this may not be the case with all souls. He is very knowledgable of many of the books in our spiritual line, especially of Bhaktivinoda's books. So I am sure he would be well aware of the above verse from Hari Nama Cintamani. By stressing the importance of initiation he would be instructing his disciples and students including me (this is why he instructed this way), and also following his Guru Maharaja. But yes...it seems from his reply, and the above verse that this is not always applicable.

I do not know. Mercy and sweetness are all I can perceive so far. Desperately in need of both. Mercy from the sanga also- because I have no right to claim entry into it. Sweetness from the sanga also- without the mercy I have no way of seeing the sweetness of it.

There are many insights in the writings of the above website. But please be cautious and wise, and do not hastily go against the psychiatrists treatment without professional assistance. Unfortunately mainstream psychiatry may not be open to many things Spiritual Emergence Networks talk about. But personally what is written in the above site makes alot of sense to me. And can be very beneficial for spiritual wholeness and growth. And surely would be complimentary with mainstream treatment.

There is Spiritual Emergence Network's in many countries of the world. Here is the website of one of them in Australia. If you write to them they may be able to guide you to a network in your own country. http://www.nor.com.au/community/spiritualemergence/

Thank you Avinash. Firstly I have to say, my knowledge of scripture is very limited. The recent posts in the thread made me think of a Stephen Hawking show I watched bits and pieces of last night. It talked about black holes, and that Hawking says that the black holes eventually become nothing, and that the matter they suck in also disappears( I think this is what the show said). I just wondered, if Krsna is absolute. Could the concept of nothingness or void, actually exist in Him also. If not, then Hawkings theory would be false.

Avinash, could you please help me understand something. Vaisnavism and Buddhism seem to be opposing philosophies. Considering there are three levels of devotees. I read that the devotee in the topmost realisation, actually comes back down to the middle platform to preach. And being situated on this middle platform he teaches that Buddhist philosophy is in opposition to Vaisnavism. My question is, if the Mahabhagavata remains situated on the topmost platform, does he make these distinctions?

Being a person who encountered both a positive and negative experience in a NDE encounter I would say, this seems to be the way it works. I have read some buddhist writings some years ago that explain these things in some detail. At the time I encountered this phenomenon, I was young, and did not have a very developed spiritual thinking. The structure I was taught during my life was a very simplistic christian theology with the gospel teaching of grace left out. Basically a theology based on good and evil and moral conduct. And a warning of hell and satan. Sad really. The negative aspect that was presented to me in the NDE had alot to do with the way I had been religously conditioned from a young age. Not so much that I was a really bad person. Just a run of the mill, not so good, young person. As is common with alot of people who have encountered NDE's ,my whole concept of God gradually changed and developed. And the concept of death and an afterlife is not a negative thing anymore. I know I will not encounter the element of fear next time. I think that alot of NDE's are subtle mental phenomena and at some point the soul has to penetrate this illusory realm to progress further. Back home, back to Godhead. Interesting to note, as with most NDE's, the last words spoken to me were, "it's not your time, go back."

guest...not the einstein factor. It's actually not ABC...its SBS 8-30 pm. I think, I don't own a tv guide. These days I tend to lean to Srila Prabhupada. There is much good ideas in his books. For years my ideals were possibly leaning to the left. The older I am getting the less solace I find in politics. Lately His Divine Grace's writings have been meaning alot to me and my heart is moving toward His shelter.

I reckon there is a heap of misdiagnosis of schizophrenia. The concept of "spiritual emergence crisis" would probably relate in many cases. I have not read so much on this. Due to minimal time. But the psychiatrists Grof & Grof coined the phrase "spiritual emergence crisis". There is some interesting stuff on the internet about it and support services. Kundalini rising can be very intense.

It's great possessing this miniscule mind that's prone to mishear and make mistakes. I am quite attached to it:crazy:. .... I like the idea of a cosmic symphony too.

I want to see the right wing mainstream prime minister of Australia(John Howard)sporting a sika and flowing robes. Now that would be something. Even better, doing that dance(hands locked together) spinning in circles with his best buddy Mr. Bush.

But, saying this...let's continue on. I'm having a good time, this string theory is fun. And Myrla, thanks for reminding us of the science show about strings on ABC Australia TV tonight. Classic timing. Nitai-Gauranga Hari bol.

I was reading out of Science of Self Realization last night, that lecture where AC Bhaktivedanta was glorifying Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. You know, the lecture by Bhaktivedanta Maharaja years before he left to go to America. At one point He talks about kali yuga, and how kali yuga cannot be a diminishing of technological expertise, because just the opposite is happening. But it is actually a degrading of being aware of our spiritual nature and spiritual call as souls, and missing the chance for this in the human form. So where will all this science lead in this age of kali. By some good fortune some rare souls surely will see the hand of God, and in my view a wonderful loving personal God. On the other hand science may just lead to an impersonal conclusion that we are all God. An impersonal whole. Or if science does not lead to God, then we are all doomed to be nothing more than super fine, advanced particles of matter. This thread still draws me to the wonderful Brahma Samhita. A book of wonder and beauty. It speaks in a language totally different than modern science. But it is the language that God wishes to reveal Himself to us tiny one's. I just love the way the concluding verses wind up sounding the call of Bhakti. Brahma Samhita: http://vedabase.net/bs/en

Babhru, please. I would very much like to develop my communication skills also. I desperately need to. It would be nice to get better in this area, so I can express deeper appreciation toward this fellowship and it's members. I plan on sticking around for some time!