bija

Yes this is what I was alluding to when the scientists are making a comparison between the vibrations of strings and sound vibrations, to use an example. It relates to the idea of transcendental sound. Thanks Stonehearted for putting all this into words so nicely. The strings may possibly be still material substance(who knows), maybe just a shadow of the transcendental reality. Speculating, speculating:idea:!!!

Same here. Also I am no scholar regarding vedic spirituality. My inclinations are toward bhakti, which is very satisfying. You may like to read Brahma Samhita for an idea of the bhakti school I am focusing on.http://vedabase.net/bs/en (Click on the green icons to read the purports and verse translations). Oneday I would like to grasp more of this great scripture. I have similar interests to you regarding all this science(even if my knolwedge is not so diverse). And when you posted this thread I straight away thought of this Brahma Samhita.I have made a note of your inclinations toward vishishadvaita. Out of respect and interest I will do some internet searching on this philosophy. Surely spirit and consciousness are the roots of all we see, and if science can work at discovering the nature of spirit and consciousness, I feel it will be doing a great service for humanity. I wish you all the best with your interests and research. Even better than me searching about vishishadvaita on the net. Guest, do you know of any good sites where I may learn more about this philosophy propounded by Ramanujacarya.

Dear Archbishop Mike, I am posting the following article circa. 1890's for your satisfaction and appreciation. The author Bhaktivinoda Thakura is a modern day saint, who reintroduced to the world, the Krsna consciousness movement started by the Supremely Merciful Sri Krsna Caitanya(Gauranga) in the 16th century. I know you will enjoy the insights in the article even if the terminoligies may be somewhat foreign. Sectarianism in Spirituality by Shrila Sacchidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Shri Krishna Samhita Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards-alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in varoius practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian.

Archbishop Mike, are you the author of this letter. If you are, "I like you alot." I was a child of the early days of the Vatican Two Council. After much spiritual searching and maturing I am beginning to once again honor and respect your Church. I hope and pray that the Church can live and breathe what Vatican Two was trying to say. I respect the responsibility which the Church holds as a leader in today's world. And pray that the hand of God can guide it and use it to further tolerance and universal love,the true essence of the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ. Peace to you. Nityananda, Gauranga, Hare Krsna.....sincerely, bija.

Dear Guest, I am not so well read regarding the scientific approach. So my comments in this discussion will be limited. But a couple of weeks ago I saw a show about the Intelligent Design debate going on in the U.S. I perceived from the tv show that many of the supporters of this Intelligent Design are more from the fundamentalist christian persuasion. I thought wouldn't it be good if some Hindu scientists or Vedic scholars could deepen and enrich the debate. The depth and understandings of God in the Vedic tradition are much more broad I feel. And could add much more weight to the debate. You have shared some great insights; for example you say honed in consciousness could impact these strings. Giving way to and explaining mystical phenomena. Interesting stuff. Very probable indeed. What are your feelings about spiritual substance, beyond this material substance(both subtle and gross)? Do you make a distinction between the spiritual and material? If strings do exist, would they be still of the material substance? Or do you make no distinction between material and spiritual substance. You seem to have a very probing mind, I am interested to know what you think.

Is anyone familiar with the Brahma Samhita? Does it shed any light on all this?

Speculating in this way is fun and exciting for me. But I must say my accepting of Veda does not depend on the knowledge of modern science. The beauty of Caitanya Caritamrita, Gita, and Bhagavatam are the sound vibrations to nurture my faith and the tools to develop bhakti. But I am glad that this thread on string theory came up. Exciting times we live in if such theories eventually will lead to the acceptance of the spiritual realm. Nice to hear from you Myrla...Nitai-Gaura Hari bol.

Thank you for the new look AF. I feel the same.

The science show I saw about string theory was very complex and way beyond my grasp. In the show they said that the strings could possibly be the source of life. And that the strings could be described in some degree to sound vibration. Somewhat like the vibration coming from the string of a violin, they said. That the whole universe was built upon sound vibration. My heart jumped when I heard this. Sound familiar to anyone? The Veda explains truth in a different way than modern science language. But wouldn't it be wonderful if this modern language of science eventually begins to verify and corollate the truth of the vedas. Forgive my speculation but, "Oh, the wonderful sound vibrations of Krsna's flute!":)

Srila Prabhupada was situated on the transcendantal platform. And due to this could see things clearly as they are. I think this is where we get into so much trouble regarding sectarianism. Because we are not situated on this transcendental platform we get caught up in the external nature of things. Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his book Sri Krsna Samhita talks about the need for different levels of spirituality for each persons qualification. He explains that there are two types of devotees - Swanlike and Asslike. He says Swanlike devotees can also be found in the neopyhte(beginner) devotee as well as more advanced devotees. And that their concern is not sectarian debate or, downgrading a person's qualification and ability to understand spiritual truths. But the concern is to raise one's own standards to a higher level(adhikari). He says the Asslike devotee's can be situated on the beginner or intermediate stage, and that they enter quarrel and sectarian debate about whose qualification is greater. Bhaktivinoda says this sectarian mentality has been prevalent in society since time immemorial. And he goes on to say, that the Asslike devotee can even perpetuate grossly harmful acts to his fellow beings to justify his own understandings. Thakura's admonition is to develop Swanlike mentality. And surely in all wisdom; to assist your fellow beings in their spiritual quest and developing of deeper spiritual insights is a very noble thing. A perfect example of such a transcendental soul can be found in Srila Prabhupada.

Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadadhara Srivasadi Gaura-bhakta-vrinda A wonderful healing balm. Daily practice of devotion to these wonderful Lord's will result in much peace. Meditating on Sri Krsna Caitanya and Prabhu Nityananda in this mantra and then chanting Krsna's names in the form of Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, would be very beneficial. The conception of Godhead contained in these two mantra's is very sweet and merciful. Also by reading about Prabhu Nityananda, Krsna Caitanya, and Krsna; combined with these mantras; an enlightenment into the pervading presence of a fully loving God will gradually manifest. But the key is daily practice. Just as medicines are used for treatment of the symptoms of schizophrenia and benefits can develop over time, similarly the yoga practice needs to be taken up on a daily basis. I do not know your views on the use of medication for the treatment of schizophrenia. Some religionists have the view that medicine is not necessary. Personally I do not agree with this view. I would say that medicine is very beneficial, but, with regular, determined practice of yoga, gradually over years the need for higher doses of medicine may not be as essential. The medicine may be able to be gradually decreased, as the realisations from the yoga practice begin to heal the persons psyche. But saying this, each person is an individual and much care needs to be taken. Reading on the Bhakti-yoga process I am practicing can be found at www.vedabase.net. Bhakti-yoga is a yoga based on devotion and love. And because of its central focus on Divine Love, I recommend it. As the soul gradually become enveloped in this Divine Love, many material impediments begin to diminish. But once again I would like to say, in most cases this is no quick fix. Sincere, determined daily practice is the key. Om Shanti.....sincerely, Bija.

nekozuki, I have had a nde. I would say the nde's are a subtle body phenomenon. I had both a wonderful experience and a very frightening one. I was not following the Hindu path then, but I did see Yamaraja in it at some point. The following smiley says totally how I felt when I saw this personage:eek:. And the wonderful experience...that is beyond words. Complex psyche:). Thank God not as complex as the monk in question or, the writer who made up this bogus story:). Anyway, if Goliath and Buddha are some of the diverse persons in Hell, it is sure going to be a crowded place. I'm not so good around crowds. Then again Goliath and Buddha having a chin-wag, that might be interesting. Anyhow, I am spirit soul..not this body, not this mind.....subtle body be-gone!!!

Some examples proving this is that no one prayers to their pastor and no one worships their pastor. The connection is directly with Christ. And that is what Prabhupada is obviously speaking about here when he says the guru is eternal. quote by jndasa Yes I think so too jndasa. For the christian the link is strongly with Lord Jesus Christ and this is what Prabhupada is pointing out. I think the previous Guest made an interesting point about not comparing christian/Hare Krsna, in that the traditions followed are very different in many ways. This is where I find Srila Prabhupada such a Master at teaching his followers. As can be seen from his conversation in the initial post, he draws out for his disciples, the essence you might say, of the christian way, to enlighten his disciples knowledge deeper about both the christian and vedic paths. I can say Prabhupada's teachings have also done the very same thing for me. As I am slowly growing into his teachings my insights into the tradition I was born into have developed. And even though I am somewhat externally more expressed as Hare Krsna(if you can say that), I am probably a better Catholic than I have ever been. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! To look for a disciplic chain in Christianity we come to a familar question. Diksa or Shiksa. That estimation will make a difference in the evaluation. quote by theist This is interesting Theist. This also brings out the point that the previous Guest made about comparisons. Maybe the comparisons are not so easy to bring out, or black and white. Speaking about christianity in general, it seems to be more of a siksa process in that the priest/pastor gives instruction each sunday. But it is not easy to talk in terms of Diksa or Siksa. There are so many contradictions. For example, what is the new life of water baptism? The confirmation of the Holy Spirit in Catholicism? Or even the priest acting on behalf of Christ in the Catholic sacrament of confession, being able to forgive the participants sins? But on the other hand. In the Catholic Churches, the passing on of sacred rights such as priesthood, ordination of bishops etc; you could say is a direct process similar to diksa. A direct line believed to be in existence since Saint Peter. Or when talking to a christian, using the term guru in regards to Jesus Christ may be totally misunderstood. Or even degrading in the christians view. Even with an in depth study of what an empowered incarnation is.

Thanks for sharing your insights, Guest. Personally I try not to get into conversations about the right and wrongs of different religions. And by no means was I making a comparative example of Catholic/Hare Krsna. What I was trying to do was shed some light on jndasa's following question: Catholics believe in their apostolical/disciplic succession; if others do not, so be it.

If they have never really looked. How to encourage them to look? The material energy performs it's job well. Suffering, or even Krsna coming as unavoidable Death. Feeling a tiny bit of compassion; wouldn't it be nice if these did not have to be the catalysts for looking to God? How to help soften a heart to look for God, before the inevitable promptings of the material energy do their work? If anyone knows please tell me. I am thinking of a loved one close to my heart!

I can remember some years ago when I was getting more into KC, a friend gave me some tapes of lectures of Bhavananda Swami in Melbourne in the eighties. On one particular tape in question and answer time he was harshly criticisizing christians and how they do not have a disciplic succession. And how the Hare Krsna's do. Straight away I knew he was teaching false things with a poor fund of knowledge. Obviously accepted by those who were only aware of protestant christianity, but not by me, a Catholic boy from way back. I do not know of all the times Srila Prabhupada had discourses with christians. But the books I have read, or videos I have seen, it is often with Catholic clergy. With some insight, and closer scrutiny it seems that Srila Prabhupada is talking from his knowledge of Catholic practice, where, I knew straight away that Bhavananda was talking and claiming authority about a subject he was not schooled about. I may be presumming, but it may be possible that his background and understandings were protestant. Many protestants can be totally ignorant of Catholic practice and even sometimes harshly critical of it. This is why I love Srila Prabhupada, because he speaks on subjects with authority and is well schooled.

Regarding the murtis. Because of your situation living with people who eat meat, just be as practical as you can. I am sure Krsna will honor any sincere efforts on your behalf. Try not to make it a burden on your parents though. Any small steps you make now will be great advancement for when the time is right and you are ready to have your own apartment. Personally I would keep the altar in a place that both suits you and your parents. I would say in your room would be fine. Keep it in a place where you can see them, and worship them. Remember if you do get Gaura-Nitai murti's, just by seeing Them you will make great spiritual advancement. They are very merciful and do not take offences into consideration. There is a nice purport by Srila Prabhupada in Caitanya Caritamrita adi lila ch.8 verse 31. found at http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en Try to learn about Gaura Nitai Tattva, and why it is beneficial to worship Them in the beginning of spiritual life. The above purport sheds much light on this.

I can see Kulapavana's point here. I thought also that the priest/clergyman is in some way referred to as a living representative of Jesus Christ as pointed out by Srila Prabhupada. It is interesting when Srila Prabhupada refers to christian doctrine he refers to Catholic doctrines alot. The Catholic church hold a tradition that most protestants do not.There is a sacrament passed on called confirmation, recieved by laying on of hands. The reception in confirmation of laying on of hands, represents the young candidates acceptance of the working of the Holy Spirit/Paramatma in their lives. And the empowerment to live the gospel and to go out and share it with the world. This laying on of hands is received from a Bishop. Everything is handed down in a disciplic line you might say. Catholic's say their disciplic line descends from Saint Peter who was commisioned by Jesus Christ. Ofcourse this is debatable, and most protestants deny this is a fact. All sacraments in the Catholic Church are handed down in this disciplic way. Marriage, baptism, holy communion, ordination into priesthood,etc.

Rule Two: offer the prospect a product you have full faith in. The prospect has an uncanny way of knowing sincerity. Get to know your product, which one works best for you, one you really like. The one you would choose. I like your style gHari. It must be a salesman thing/connection.

Here is his preaching website. www.backtohome.com He has another webpage which I think can be accessed by signing up to the above page. He works within Iskcon.

White Lotus, It is nice to hear you are going to set up a small altar. Along with your pictures of Radha and Krsna, I would like to encourage you to buy a small set of Gaura-Nitai murti's from your temple gift shop also. They are so simple to worship. Offer a little vegeatarian food, and chant Hare Krsna before Them. Even by just seeing Them in your room you will make wonderful spiritual advancement. I have posted the following conversation with Srila Prabhupada, Feb 2nd 1977. I thought it may be of interest to you.

This sounds great, I wish you all success. The thing I find interesting about this thread is that it inspires thoughts about preaching. Being only 40 odd years since Prabhupada came to the west, what an early stage we are in. How much room there is for creativity and expansion. Down-under here, most of the movements activities are centered around the big cities. And in my particular circumstance I am rarely able to go to the main city, let alone focus my activities there. So this thread re-awakens thoughts of, "how to assist in bringing this movement into the smaller towns and villages?How to assist in bringing about small pockets of devotees, where the big institutions are not currently reaching?" Gauranga!! I wish I had the courage to assist a tiny bit towards this goal in my home town. Surely Siddhaswarupananda is a very special soul. To be graced by his presence, and to see these videos and his unique preaching style is a real treat.

A friend of mine often shares about her experiences as a young person, when she was in contact with Iskcon in the mid seventies. How things were so simple and vibrant. It must have been a wonderful time. After a couple of years she moved away from the major city where the temple was and as Iskcon's birthing pains started to manifest, drifted somewhat away from the organisation. But was empowered enough, to operate independentaly and develop Krsna consciousness. And when the time was right some twenty years later to come back to Iskcon. I have often thought of the beginnings of the Hare Krsna movement in the west and made comparisons with the 1st century Christian movement. How fresh and alive both must have been. Last night I was listening to a spiritual program that was talking about the apostle Paul. On closer scrutiny I found many parallels between apostle and acarya. And the above quote by Srila Prabhupada confirms the commonality of acarya/apostle in empowering the individuals to be able to stand and grow on their own or in small groups. Especially in the fledgling stage of a movement. And, I much look forward to seeing more of Siddhasvarupananda's video's. But on doing an internet search on him I could not find any webpages or sites very much. Does he or any of his followers do much in the way of internet preaching?

"That strikes me. I wonder if my guru is your guru too and if you have been to the Murwillumbah festival?"quote by Myrla. We have different Guru's. But I have often thought how nice it would be to live in Murwillumbah. I have never been there, but I am aware it hosts three different Hare Krsna sanga's which would be bliss. A very rare place in Australia indeed. I have spoken to one person who has been there and they said it is not uncommon to see devotees out and about on the street, shopping in supermarkets etc. That's my idea of paradise. And thank you for the invite to meet your little sanga. I will write your mobile number down, and if I feel inspired at some stage to move in that direction for association I will give you a call. Chant on!

Thanks for you kindness Myrla. I live at the end of the Great Ocean Road. Not so far away from Melbourne. I am very fortunate that one other devotee lives in town here. We like to meet up at least a couple of times a month. The spiritual friendship is more relishable for me than all other association. Basically over the years I tried to approach Iskcon Melbourne for association. But due to distance, and various material obstacles on my behalf, a close relationship never fully evolved. By some good fortune I developed a very close relationship with a spiritual guide through the medium of internet. A not so orthodox approach; but nevertheless, through mediums such as regular email, google chat, and every now and then google talk, and a constantly evolving website; an approach that is working for me and most relishable. Having a computer at home now for the last six months I am slowly teaching myself how to work this modern technology.