bija

Thank you Myrla, for sharing your very special story. You have brought to my awareness more how this thread is such a special subject so close to the heart. What I like to call from my own experience, heart transaction. And when I tread an area like this, dealing with a jiva's love for, Vaisnava, Guru, Spiritual Father, Srila Prabhupada, etc, I feel I need to tread ever so gently. It is "such" a very very special area. And to be totally real, considering my spiritual association is so limited where I live, a conversation I hope to be fully grateful for. The question is how much to share on an internet forum? I take my succor that the forums name is Audarya Fellowship. I actually came across this forum over two years ago. At that time I had not long met my soon to be spiritual guide. (in joining this current thread many of these memories have been coming back). Upon this meeting with him, I just knew who he was so strongly in my heart. I actually did a websearch on his name in the beginning and the search led me to this forum. Due to his unique approach to siddhanta, and novel strategy to spread Krsna conciousness to the most fallen souls of kali yuga(an approach which initially attracted myself; who was perpetually lost at the time), his name has been spoken of not so nicely or kindly in certain circles; including this forum. Why am I bringing up such a personal story? Only because I wish to impress that heart territory is sacred land. If one resides in this territory he/she is in a good place, a place where GaurangaKrishna can begin to work. Many thorns have blown in from outside of this sacred land in my own experience, and many times I have been greatly tested in my faith. So I wish to honor Theist's sacred space and dealings with supersoul in the heart. Some of my, basic understandings and realisations, of the Krsna consciousness philosophy may differ, but one thing we all share in common is we are all making a heart transaction with beauty, sweetness and truth. signed...life's greatest fool.

There is some info at this thread in the forum http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/friendly-marketplace/41912-gaura-nitai-deities.html If you live near an Iskcon/Hare Krsna temple there is a good chance they will sell them in the gift shop or will be able to order them for you.

I want to draw this conversation back to where you were wanting to take it. <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> So to answer your question, I have no doubt that a very wonderful seed can be planted in the heart from these very beautifully potent books. But I also would say that by taking shelter of a spiritual master and receiving the Name this potent seed will blossom even more.quote by bija </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I have read the thread over again. Which I find beneficial for me, with this material mind;). In one of your previous posts in this thread you posted a letter of Srila Prabhupada, here is the segment you highlighted:So you have already achieved to this stage of life. Please do not miss the opportunity. Although you are not formally initiated, you have associated with our devotees in the New York temple, and it has acted. The seed is already there in you and it has to be helped to grow and fructify. The best means of watering this seed of Krishna Consciousness is to chant and hear Hare Krishna. Theist, I am interested to understand more the point you are trying to bring out, in regards to "receiving the holy name." It is a heart transaction isn't it, rather than some type of external formality?

I like where you are coming from in this post. You say the concept of mercy in the sankirtana movement should be emphasised. Absolutely. As you express in your earlier post this spiritual life/awakening is a gradual process. There is no point in bombarding an inquisitive person with a heap of rules. It didn't work for me, and I couldn't maintain them either. I feel it is much better for these things to manifest spontaneously when ready. Then they will be maintained steadily and nicely. Initially I was taught to chant 2000 Holy Names a day. Initially that wasn't totally easy but I did maintain it. Then over time, to make increments in the number when able with the assistance of an incrementation chart that was supplied. Slowly and steadily I followed the instruction. And maintained each increment when attained. I found this process worked for me and hope to continue it for years to come. It is a life time process. Also I was taught to chant before I was taught to follow the 4 regs. As my chanting increased over months the 4 regs just fell into place naturally. The desire to follow them grew in my heart. Good point. Very few I would presume. As you are aware Lord's Gauranga and Nityananda are mercy incarnations. So the very nature of this movement and philosophy is mercy. In fact Theist, I find your post right on the mark. This sounds good to me.

Jaya Theist, thank you. If you have the time, could you please share a little more of what you mean by obstacles. I think I can understand a little of what you are saying when you refer to fallen souls(us). I relate to that. Considering kali's influence over time will increase more and more. The last thing we need is obstacles to hinder a jiva taking up naam-yoga. As time moves on, who will be qualified? I am interested to know more of your observations. In relation to my story I shared about going to the San Diego temple and being taught the Hare Krsna Mantra. After about a month or so I stopped chanting and left it all behind. Only if I had kept up the process, I would have been saved so much trouble. I have thought about why I did not develop taste to maintain the process. One obvious reason was my material desires were very strong and also lack of association. I have reflected very deeply on this, and you know: I was never taught by the devotees about Lord Caitanya. Or even taught the Panca-Tattva mantra. I think here is the key. I know why maybe, I was not taught about Lord Caitanya. I have often found the same obstacle in my own sharing efforts. "How will they ever believe me that this 16th century mystic was God; oh I better keep that part of the philosophy secret for a while." But I have come to the conclusion that understanding His tattva is most essential. Only if I had received a drop of this nectar way back then. Please refer to:http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en

Here is the link the link; if it's not let me know. http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/

Thanks for sharing some of your journey. It is really very interesting. The perfect timings on a spiritual journey are wonderful. The coincidences involved can be nothing but the active moving of God in this material world. I have often thought about the devotees who take it as their service to distribute books. I am sure over the years some of them would have had the thoughts,"Is it really worth it, are they reading them, etc. etc." Only if we could get a glimpse of the many life changing experiences great or small, and the many wonderful stories involved. It would make a good BBT book. What a great soul is He who wrote these books. Being unnattached to the results he obviously offered the results to His Srila Prabhupada. And Krsna was well pleased. brihat-mrdanga ki jaya!

Two times I received a small book. It is about twelve years ago now, so my memory is not perfect. While I stayed in the San Diego temple there was a couple of devotees in their early twenties who I thought were quite nice. Last I heard one of them had left the temple. I recall him being a very nice person. The other devotee I came across again about twelve months later. I had been travelling and somehow I flew back to San Francisco and was working my way down to southern Mexico. I made my way to San Diego/Tijuana and coming back from Tijuana one day two devotees were distributing books. One of them was the other devotee who I admired from the temple. He was surprised to see me and I was glad to see him. I don't know why it is gHari, but even at that stage of my life, when I was "out there" I had alot of time for devotees. I took a book from him and that was that. I did not see that devotee until around six years later. At that time I was hanging out with a couple of other travellers and one of them said, "why did you talk to them for and take a book. They are a cult." Or something like that. So I was a bit embarrased so later on I put the book on a public seat and prayed that someone who may need it may find it there. It was such a nice experience to see this devotee again. And in some way in my heart I felt a real connection. About twelve months after this I was free floating over in Perth, Western Australia. At that time I had been living out of a backpack for about two and a half years. And little did I know it but Krsna was about to bring about a change in my life, that would impact my life for many years. Basically everything, health, finance etc was just stripped away. Around this time I started visiting a Food for Life and would dream in a naive way of dropping out and finding peace renouncing the world. I approached a devotee at the Food for Life one day and asked about living in a temple. I got a fairly negative response, which I can laugh about now. I was a fairly shady looking long hair by this stage. So I just picked up one of the books off one of the tables and read it while I ate my meal. I took it with me and was intrigued by the concept in it of an "Original Personality of Godhead." My spiritual insights at the time were definately not awakened much as I was situated in the mode of ignorance fairly nicely. I met that devotee from San Diego one more time in 1999. By that stage he was travelling the world promoting books in Iskcon. By that stage my wrestle with material life was at its peak. But that's another story. To be honest I am not so comfortable sharing so much in this internet world. But what the heck. If someone can get something out of my foolishness maybe it was all worth it. I am pretty much trying to be attached to Nityananda and Gauranga these days; the Friends of the most fallen. The Magnanimous kali yuga Avatars and the Divine Lords of my only shelter.

I had a feeling this might be where you were leading to. And it is somewhere which I am not qualified to enter. As the Lord is leading me to spiritual awakening, I know he is leading you also. And I fully honor that. I appreciate your understanding of what 'initiation' means to you. I had similar realisations some years ago. Some born again friends of mine, who had accepted the Lord and had been baptised would often ask the question, "are you born again?". So I would ask them, "are you born again?" They would reply, "oh yes I am definately born again." My heartfelt response to them was always,"It is an ongoing process for me, each day I am being continually born again." So it is very nice to hear your realisations Theist. I hope you can appreciate my heart in not wanting to enter philosophical debate whether formal initiation is necessary or not. I just am not that type of person. I am not a part of any institution, or anything like that. And practice yoga here basically by myself. By some good fortune when my spiritual life was crumbling and falling apart and my spiritual association was almost zero, somehow I developed a relationship and friendship through the internet with a very kind and loving Spiritual Master. Who now looks after me and cares for me. I have not recieved diksa into the Mahamantra as yet. But have been given diksa into other mantra/names of Krsna that he felt I was qualified for. God knows if I had not recieved the mercy and association of my spiritual Father where I would be today( I could share more, but a public forum is not the place). peace to you, bija. ps. I only sourced the long QA to serve you, not to preach to you. Your love for Srila Prabhupada is very special. Blessings to you.

I just had to highlight this,

The following question and answer may be of some benefit in answering your question. I have made some small editing to make this QA more readable, but have not altered the content. If there are any mistakes in the editing they are mine.

Really interesting. May I ask, what is the "BI" ?

Thanks DB, I feel some things maybe should not be discussed. But at the same time I want to express that God is real and Srila Prabhupada is a very special spiritual teacher. And that a spiritual seed can definately be planted in the heart upon reading these special books. Thank you for your warmth and openess.

I found the following on the opening page of Bhaktivinoda's book, Sri Krsna Samhita. Published by Vrajraj Press. om tat sat satyam param dhimahi The four original Bhagavatam verses jnanam parama-guhyam me Knowledge about Me as described in the scriptures is very confidential yavan aham I Myself in My eternal form = Direct perception of the Absolute Truth aham evasam evagre nanyad yat sad-asat param pascad aham yad etac ca yo 'vasisyeta so smy aham Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead. (1) ******************************************************* yad vijnana-samanvitam It has to be realized yatha-bavo My transcendental existence = Indirect perception of the Absolute Truth rte rtham yat pratiyeta na pratiyeta catmani tad vidyad atmano mayam yathabhaso yatha tamah O Brahma, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness. (2) ******************************************************** These two verses are elaborately explained in the first two chapters of this book. ******************************************************** sarahasyam With devotional service yad-rupa-guna-karmakah My color, qualities, and activities = The activities of the living entities and the Supreme Lord, known as the science of love O Brahma, please know that the universal elements enter into the cosmos and and the same time do not enter into the cosmos; similarly, I Myself also exist within everything created, and at the same time I am outside of everything. (3) ******************************************************** tad-angam ca The necessary paraphernalia for that process tathaiva tattva-vijnanam By factual realization =The confidential science of devotional service etavad eva jijnasyam tattva-jijnasunatmanah anvaya-vyatirekabhyam yat syat sarvatra sarvada A person who is searching after the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, must certainly search for it up to this, in all circumstances, in all space and time, and both directly and indirectly. (4) grhana gaditam maya You may take it up carefully astu te mad-anugrahat Let it be awakened within you out of My causeless mercy ******************************************************** The third verse is explained in the third, fouth, fifth, sixth, and ninth chapters of this book. The fourth verse is explained in the seventh, eighth, and tenth chapters of this book. _______________

Dear Theist, I have not read anything that confirms your question. So I cannot answer. But over the months of reading this forum, and being graced by your openess, I have come to know a tiny bit about your approach to Krsna consciousness. Because I cannot answer your question, I would like to share with you a little, how potent Srila Prabhupada's books are. I am somewhat hesitant to share my story over the net and do not know if it is the correct thing to do. But as I now use an anonymous name I am going to...please forgive me. Back in the early nineties when my life was much more opulent than it is now I had the good fortune of taking a long journey. Backpacking. My first port of call was the america's. After spending some time travelling Mexico I made my way to California, San Diego. When I was in San Diego, oneday I saw a large group of Hare Krsna's chanting in a park. I had seen them in Australia before. Being very intrigued I approached them. And moved into the temple with them for about 3 or 4 days. These few days were very intense and made a strong impression on me. I was invited by the temple president to stay, but due to being young and full of material desires and wanting to travel more I left. Before I left I was given a set of Japa beads and taught the Hare Krsna Mahamantra. I chanted for several weeks on and off and eventually left it all aside. Over the next two years I recieved a couple of Prabhupada's small books by good fortune. After reading them somewhat I also left them aside. But I do recall I was captured by a term in them, "Original Personality of Godhead." Five months later I was involved in an unfortunate incident/accident and I encountered a classic near death experience. You know, the tunnel of light and all that. As I understand now, it involved being situated in my subtle body. I saw several things in this experience which are personal. But I will share one thing to show how potent these books are. When I got to the end of the tunnel I cried out to God, "who are you?" In that instance I heard a voice; the most beautiful resounding voice that I had ever heard, filled me with such calm and peace like I had never felt before and never felt since. The response I recieved was one word, "Original." But the amazing thing was this most beautiful voice came distinctly from outside of me, and at the same time being situated within me, penetrated me to the core of my being. Over the years of reading more of Srila Prabhupada's books I have gradually dicovered more and more of what this personal NDE means to me. And the experience was the initial gradual turning point away from a foolish life to a journey back home. So to answer your question, I have no doubt that a very wonderful seed can be planted in the heart from these very beautifully potent books. But I also would say that by taking shelter of a spiritual master and receiving the Name this potent seed will blossom even more. If this post has offended anyone or is inappropriate to discuss in any way please forgive me. I will probably regret pressing the "submit reply" button now but I am going to anyway. your servant....bija. ps. there is one other thing I would like to say which is relevant to the potency of Srila Prabhupada's books. I was brought up as a practicing Roman Catholic, went through eleven years of Catholic education. Still love the empowered incarnation Jesus very much and respect the Church. But after such short, brief encounters with Krsna consciousness and Prabhupada's books before I experienced the NDE; the books made the strongest impression of who God is in my consciousness. Very potent books obviously written by a very special soul.

I find the same thing guest. Considering where I live there is very little religious diversity. Maybe three or four muslim families and only christian churches. So as you say, in dealing with the outer world, when people are inquisitive and ask me questions I have found the starting point is to refer to hinduism. And then if the conversation evolves to discuss sanatana dharma. The majority of people I have talked to here have not even heard of the term Hare Krsna devotee. And the one's who have often say, "when I go to the city I no longer see the Hare Krsna's, where have they gone?"

Thank you gHari for explaining how to approach the reading from the above pastimes. I look forward over the coming days to study the verses and purports. Some years ago I was very fortunate to gain access to some sets of Srila Prabhupada's books. By joining this forum I am finding it a good way to read and study them more. Lately in my personal reading I decided to go back to reading some of his smaller books. Upon reading them lately I have begun to realise why people call AC Bhaktivedanta by the title His Divine Grace. I am sure you may have realised such things many years ago....bija.

Dear Guest, After catching a case of the pentecostalism syndrome and developing a bad reaction. I can recommend a wonderful tincture(medicine) that was formulated by a master physician over a hundred years ago. In fact it is an age old remedy for an age old problem. But you need to follow the directions very closely. I developed a reaction to this syndrome some years ago. This "tincture" worked for me...I still take a dose of it once a month in case of relapse. Here it is below. Your ever well wisher, bija. Sectarianism in Spirituality by Shrila Sacchidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Shri Krishna Samhita Late 1800's Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards-alocakagata, alocanagata and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad. The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one's eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an ass-like mentality becomes prominent within the kanishta-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes' deity worship in order to establish the worship-able Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered ass-like people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others' practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to ass-like mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices to one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both ass-like and swanlike people are found amongst the kanishta-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in varoius practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian.

Here is a question and answer: Could a devotee kindly direct me where in the Bhagavatam these four verses actually are?

Some times in material life we may say...everything's wonderful, I am happy, I have this and that, why be so cynical? I am on top of the world! Then sometime later just the opposite. Why this dissatisfaction etc. Material life is like this is it not. A place of dualities. But by the grace of the devotees we have been shown another way. A path where Krsna say's, "my devotee will never perish." Ever expanding spiritual life, the greatest treasure. Blissful life. I am simply a kanistha devotee (I still don't even know if I spell kanistha right). But I got a hunch...for a life of joy... this spiritual life, this Krsna consciousness is the key! A life of dedication instead of a life of domination.

As you would be aware any taste that is here in this material world is just a shadow reflection of the taste's that are in the spiritual world. I was just reading Science of Self Realisation yesterday and Prabhupada says, ....Everything we deal with here is present in the spiritual world, but here it has no real value. It is only a reflection... This humorous rasa you are referring to can be found in chapter 49 of the book Nectar of Devotion, at www.vedabase.net . It is very special and is continually manifesting and unmanifesting in Gokula Vrindavan where Krsna performs His transcendental pastimes in the material world. If we find these material taste's so relishable, how much much more so must be the case with the transcendental. I cannot begin to imagine. Dear DB Cooper I am not there yet....but oh my goodness, I want to be; these material taste's are wearing thin!

I guess it would be fair to say the Holy Name is unlimited, and so is Srila Prabhupada's mercy. Wonderful transcendental Krsna Naam, wonderful magnanimous Srila Prabhupada. What divine realisations of Naam he must have had. How intense must have been his desires to see Krsna Naam cover the whole earth. Surely the desires of Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada were his life and soul.

It is pleasure to talk with you Number 2, Yes I can see what you are saying, we are very fortunate. And the teachings being taught by the sages are appropriate for the age. I got a laugh and smiled when I read this:D, yes surely I am a common person. The disciplic succession I am a part of that descends from Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches a process that is appropriate for the most fallen souls in this age of kali. Caitanya and Nityananda Prabhu are very merciful, and their mercy extends far and wide. I actually did not say this, you may find it is in post number 4 of this thread. Once again I find it refreshing to hear your perspectives on Hinduism and wish you peace with your yoga practice. The Bhagavad Gita is a great scripture and no doubt it will continue to be as many years pass by; its message is timeless. I have been studying it while we have been having this conversation as I find this a good way to learn, as there are not many others I know where I live who are interested in it. I have been reading the purport to Chapter 4 verse 1 by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and in it he says So no doubt this science will be around for a long long time to come. Also, I find what I have read about sufism and jewish mysticism to be very interesting, and the people I have briefly talked with very nice. Being interested in such things I think is why I was so drawn to Caitanya (Gauranga Mahaprabhu) initially. These traditions hold so much hope for the world. In fact a spiritual teacher who I am taking shelter from recommends me to have the names Nityananda, Gauranga, and, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, in my field of consciousness as much as possible. Such an appropriate practice for one such as me. Om Shanti

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Number 2, it is really interesting to read your post. I find it wonderful how profoundly deep, and steeped in history, millenium upon millenium this vedic culture is. I feel very grateful that I have been introduced to it. I would like to say that the majority of what I have said in my previous couple of posts regarding "inner circle teachings" are just things I have thought of and gleaned in my reading time over the years. By no means are my words authoritative in any way. I would have to agree with you that in Satya Yuga the process practiced was meditation and no doubt existed long before Patanjali wrote the codes down. I would like to quote AC Bhaktivedanta:"Satya-yuga is called the golden age because in this age everyone is pure and spiritually advanced. The conditions in the Satya Yuga are particularly suitable for the practice of meditational yoga as people have long lifetimes and are undisturbed." At the same time, the knowledge that Krsna spoke to Vivasvan is the same knowledge that He spoke to Arjuna. And what was spoken is a complete treatise on God consciousness and the processes involved, not just one process of yoga. The inclinations of my heart are toward bhakti to GaurangaKrsna, and by some good fortune and mercy from God I hope to continue this bhakti yoga process. But saying this, recently having gained access to the internet, I much look forward to learning more about the different paths of yoga also. I would like to quote Bhagavad Gita ch.6 vs. 47 part of the purport by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, ".....to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other yoga's. The yogi who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal good fortune.".... And to finish off Bhagavad Gita chaper 6 (Dhyana Yoga) verses 46 and 47: