theist

Prabhupada's words are clear enough so I'll just skip the articles.Someone else may be interested I realize.

Hare Krsna

I just wanted to add that I don't want to go back and forth on this.I won't change my view and I doubt you will either.

I still want to know just one thing.Is Tripurari sanctioning these marriages or unions?

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-05-2002).]

Rama Kesava das mention 'We've been over this a million times" so I check the archives and he was right.It is an old topic.But I would like to repost one from that thread as it appears they are trying to draw legitimacy from Srila Prabhupada and the Vedas.The article was from jndas and I forgot who the quote is from.

quote:

--

Of course, the study of gender and sexuality is a material subject, like astrology or ayur-veda...

--

I disagree with this statement. The vedangas (limbs of Vedic knowledge such as Jyotisha, etc.) and corollary knowledge of the Vedas is apara-vidya, or material knowledge. Whereas material knowledge in general, such as what is being discussed above, is classified as avidya, or ignorance. In contrast to this, only the Vedanta-sutras and like-minded scriptures such as Srimad Bhagavatam are para-vidya, or transcendental knowledge.

A second point is that what is described in the Puranic texts is not homosexuality, as is conceived of today. They are people born with physical defects that make them neither male nor female (or both).

To compare them to the homosexuals of today, such as found in a place like San Francisco is way off.

And the reference from Srimad Bhagavatam refers to "nartakas", which simply means dancers. It has no connection with homosexuals. Nartaka is a name of Krishna, "nartaka-gopala", and he is found in Udupi. It refers to Gopala the dancer, not to Gopala the homosexual. We have two related words, one is "nartana" which means dancing, and the other is "nartaka", which means "one who dances". It is very clear and direct.

The Bhagavatam verse states:

nata-nartaka-gandharvah

suta-magadha-vandinah

gayanti cottamashloka-

caritany adbhutani ca

"Expert dramatists, artists, dancers, singers, historians, genealogists and learned speakers all gave their respective contributions, being inspired by the superhuman pastimes of the Lord. Thus they proceeded on and on."

The listing of dramatists, dancers, singers, puranic reciters, historians, and learned speakers together in a list make it quite clear that "nartaka" is refering to nothing except plain old dancers.

To misuse such statements to propogate our own speculations is certainly an injustice, and is not a work of scholarship. To put our own teachings into what we read and hear is sravanam and kirtanam influenced by the rajo-guna. This is described by Lord Kapila in the third canto.

We even find that the soul is referred to as "nartaka" in the Shiva sutras (9):

nartaka aatmaa

"The self is a dancing actor."

It does not mean the soul (atma) is a homosexual.

Nartana is the art of dancing, and those that follow it are nartakas. Generally those who are born as eunuchs (physically lacking either male or female sex), take to feminine arts such as dance. We even find this in todays reflection of homosexuals. Thus Prabhupada mentions in the Chaitanya Charitamrita purport that eunuchs took to dancing as a livelyhood, they didn't get "married" to other eunichs for maintenance.

Having said that, hardly 0.1% of nartakas (dancers) are eunuchs. Most nartakas are actually traditional brahmanas.

The true third sex is to be free from attachment to either men or women and to be situated on the paramahamsa platform of pure devotional service. Anything else is just a confusion over the two sexes.

As far as a separate "Gay and Lesbian Gaudiya Vaishnava Society", is that religion?

Acyutananda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.

Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?

One point on Guru.I like shiva's understanding that guru is ultimately Supersoul and is everywhere.

But simultaneously this personalism includes His devotee.That person who opened your eyes with the torchlight of knowledge is a particular person.He is Supersoul as well, but he doesn't just dissolve into Paramatma as one becomes more advanced.

It wasn't guru in the clouds that had two heart attacks on the Jaladuta for example.

It's about love and gratitude and all those good things.

I don't think shiva was saying anything contrary to this by the way.

Thumbs down on your third gender speculation.

But I do wish you well in your KC practice and I hope you wish me the same.

Hare Krsna

theist

When in a male body we have the duties of a man.When in a female body we have the duties of a woman.

Anything contrary strikes me as confusion.Trying to mix siddha-deha into it makes it even more so.

It may be of more practical benefit to us to realize ourselves as spiritsouls with an identity not dependent on the false pyschophysical circumstances that we are presently in.

Originally posted by nine9:

We've been over this issue a million times. Of course no-one is saying that we should live rampant lives full of carnal pleasure, but yes, Maharaja does have gay disciples, and recognises them as such.

 

That he has disciples that have homosexual tendancies was not really the question.KC is open for all souls.I am curious if he is giving sanction to homosexual marriage or unions or couplings etc.Sanctified by a priest means a blessed union in the eyes of God.

In an ideal situation you would see us, just as you see your heterosexual peers. We have the same problems with lust, and EXACTLY the same duty to fight and abate it.

 

Seeing with equal vision means seeing the soul.But on the level we are speaking by taking on the name Gay and Lesbian Vaisnava Association you are setting yourselves apart and thus creating a faction, No doubt about it.

The whole point's not to create factionism.

 

From Random House Dictionary:

Faction 1. A group or clique within a larger group, party government,organization, or the like.

 

You clearly have created a faction.

 

Everyone chooses friends they get along with better even within a large group.But you have established being homosexuality as something to set you apart from other vaisnavas.You clearly have established a gay faction.

A question, though: what's the harm of having nice, celibate, gay couples serving together in Krsna Consciousness?

 

If you to ask me what's wrong with homosexuality then I can assume you won'tunderstand the answer.Nor do I want to even get into it.

 

We just disagree.

 

My curiousity really goes to Tripurari's stance on the issue because of his influence in spreading vaisnavism in the West.

 

Hare Krishna

theist

 

 

Originally posted by Tarun:

Theistji: hypocritic or hypocratic?

For those resembling hippopotami, Hippocrates' Oath still holds.

I was trying to be clever with some word play.They were hypocrites for sure but from Gaurachandra's post maybe they have even given up the pretense.

What is hippopotami pray tell?

Originally posted by jijaji:

Jagat..

 

remember I said.."If someone is trying to convince you or indoctrinate you to become a celibate priest or nun you are being sexually abused."

 

The stress is on someone 'TRYING' to convience you or indoctrinate you to become celibate! That I feel is abusive...now if celibacy happens to someone naturally like the dropping of a leaf, that is different. But to preach, impose, and basically put down sexuality as being unimportant and nothing but base lust is a crime against every human being on this planet!

 

It is nothing less than ..

 

ANTI-LIFE...!

 

 

jijaji,

In your zealous attempt to convince us of the so-called dangers of celibacy a valid point can be found.

Some may indeed overly stress entering the monastic style of life and come to see that as the goal in and of its self.

But the arguement for sense control in pursuit of true spiritual attainment is also undeniably strong.

Waiting for the "leaf to fall" is not such a complete example.While it is true that material desires drop off as spiritual taste is attained, to attain that spiritual taste requires some effort on our part.Some intelligent excercise of discretion and will.

I also think your linking someone trying to convince someone of the value of celibacy, even if over emphasised, with the terms "sexual abuse"and "ANTI-LIFE" to be misguided.Way too emotive.It has the effect of watering down the terms.

theist

Shashi,

I understood what you meant.I would suggest not spending anymore time on this one.Grammarians can't help themselves.They are forced to dissect sentences and subject the same to critical review.It is like a reflex for them.We must show tolerance.

Originally posted by Jagat:

harmful to the society as a whole.

 

I also think that where Muslim actions are an affront to Hindu sensibilities, such as slaughter houses in the proximity of temples, some law should be passed.

 

Jagat

 

 

That would be a step in the right direction,but it doesn't go far enough.Hindu sensibilities will be offended anywhere that the cow is slaughtered.

It should be outlawed throughout the country.

Other animals should also be protected in like manner,but at least the cow in India.That is the bare minimum.

Acts of sacrifice, charity and penance are not to be given up; they must be performed.Indeed, sacrifice, charity and penance purify even the great souls.Bg 18.5

This is perfected in Krishna consciousness.

Originally posted by jijaji:

 

jijaji:

I don't care...the lie of celibacy has destroyed way too many lifes.

 

>>Unregulated sexual indulgence has destroyed countless more.No comparison.Not even close.People using each others bodies and emotions as objects,just to follow the sex urge.Real sexual abuse in its many forms.Sexually transmitted diseases.

 

More subtle violence based on the sex urge.Advertisers sell everything by playing on the sex desires of the target audience.This creates more material desires based on sex.People then spend their valuable human lifes chasing the fulfillment of these fantasies until finnaly overtaken by death.And along the way their minds are whiplashed by increased states of hankering and lamenting endlessly.

 

I could go on.<<

 

I say a lie because the celibacy you see practiced by priests and monks in institutions is not natural it is part of a routine, a practice like. Real celibacy is something that happens rarely to those so overwhelmed by the divine, they lose all interest with this side!

 

>>Yeah.It takes an effort.Just like in life you have to work for something you consider worth obtaining.Learning and practice are necessary in any endeavor.Some things must be sacrificed to concentrate on others.

 

It may take lifetimes to develop musical talent like a Bach or the genious of an Einstein.You may be genetically gifted with a body for sports,but if you just sit on the couch all day eatting pizza and ice cream for some immediate gratification, you will never develop your potential.

 

False, premature renounciation doesn't get you to the stage of being"overwhelmed by the divine", but neither does just being a slave to your senses in the name of 'doing the natural thing' or 'if it feels good do it'.

 

That which in the beginning may be just like poison but at the end is just like nectar and which awakens one to self-realization is said to be happiness in the mode of goodness. Bg 18.37

 

theist

 

 

 

AWESOME!!!

French,Canadian what's the difference.The point is its foriegn.

I didn't get it.But then I don't read French.

Yeah, I quess a couple of them just freaked me out.Especially the one I mentioned.But some others were upbeat.Not good art IMO but that's relative.

Satsvarupa's Art exhibit left me a little troubled for some reason.

Be sure to click on the one titled Something Is Happening but You Don't Know What.

That title sums up what this exhibit left me thinking.

I am curious as to any analysis anyone might care to make.

And don't skip the scultures.

http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=95

Originally posted by Pratyatosa Dasa:

The Christian church banned the belief in reincarnation and the law of karma. Why? Could part of the reason be that it could lead to a merciless, cold-hearted way of thinking among the people in general?

We must remember that inaction is action.There are sinful reactions to neglecting our duty.

Originally posted by Shashi:

I am thinking this desire to manipulate the natrual energy of the sex is being the foundation of many Tantic practices. Is this so?

 

 

Shashi,

That is what I hear can be done.Or that same passionate energy can be used in karma-yoga etc.also.

You are right about jijaji's inference of baiting.He is trying to bait us into responses so we can assume the most provocative term is what was meant.

Jagat don't play so innocent.

Me either.I squirmed when I read that.

Originally posted by Jagat:

In this particular case, I agree with Shiva. No problem.

I'm not sure I understand what his point is in this regard.Sounds like Kripaluism to me.

'God became Krishna'? no no no

Originally posted by shiva:

This is a common misconception.

Krsna did not expand as Radha.

God is one.

That one became two.

God became male ,and female.

He did not begin as male.

Male and female,are both creations of

God.

God is male and female.

Not that God is male,then expanded

to become female.That is absurd.

God became male,and female.

They are complimentary,they are

not coming from each other.

God,is Krsna,God is Radha.

Male and female.

They are both creations of

Gods desire....

Sounds like you are saying that Krishna's form has an origin which you call God.God the impersonal formless took on male and female forms to enjoy rasa etc.

I hope I am wrong.

Everyone is trying to alter their consciousness.Why?Because as spiritsoul encased in matter we feel alienated from our very being.

Once someone has come to a genuine process of yoga,especially chanting the Holy Names,any drug use is just a step backwards.

It seems we are willing to place ourselves under the control of anything but Krishna's internal energy.

Hi Dharma,

You said:I guess the answer to your quaetion of individuality is it depends on what state of enlightenment you are speaking of. There are many as there are many paths.

I had asked about the ultimate goal.From the general sense of the progression that you described it seems that you are being taught that you are not eternal as an individual in the final perfected state,that oneness means total absorbtion.

Have you investigated Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teaching of inconceivable oneness and difference as the complete revelation?

Does anyone know if there is a Teaching of Lord Caitanya available on line?

theist

Hi Dharma,

You said:I guess the answer to your quaetion of individuality is it depends on what state of enlightenment you are speaking of. There are many as there are many paths.

I had asked about the ultimate goal.From the general sense of the progression that you described it seems that you are being taught that you are not eternal as an individual in the final perfected state,that oneness means total absorbtion.

Have you investigated Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teaching of inconceivable oneness and difference as the complete revelation?

Does anyone know if there is a Teaching of Lord Caitanya available on line?

theist