theist

Saw this review of the program I refered to on http://beliefnet.com

Attempt To Reveal Many Faces of Islam Is Dry Yet Honest

By John Levesque

Seattle Post-Intelligencer Television Critic

Followers of Islam make up 20 percent of the world's population. A billion people, give or take. Most of them aren't Arabs.If all the Muslims in the world could squeeze into a room, in fact, the Arabs would constitute a minority about the size of the black population in the United States: around 13 percent.

Surprised?

This is one of the lingering messages in "Muslims," a "Frontline" documentary airing Thursday on PBS (9 p.m., KCTS/9). It is delivered near the end of two fairly dry hours whose noble aim is to put a more accurate face on Islam. It is delivered by a New Yorker, Yasemin Saib, who was born in Saudi Arabia and moved to the United States with her parents in 1990.

Saib is a co-founder of Muslims Against Terrorism, which sprang up five days after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. MAT's mission (available at www.matusa.org): "To stand against those who preach violence and hatred in the name of Islam and to promote peace and understanding through interfaith and intercultural coalition building." Its philosophy: "We are committed to dealing with our fellow human beings in the manner of the Prophet Muhammad, to approach one another with love and understanding, patience and respect, humility and self-criticism, rationality and reasonability, with open hearts and open minds in the pursuit of peace."

Ask most Americans to put a face on Islam and I'll bet that face is an Arab who is neither rational nor reasonable.

Can't blame us, I suppose, given what we know of the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks.

But if non-Arabs fancy themselves as rational and reasonable, it would follow that our hearts and minds are open to programs such as "Muslims."

It's not the best "Frontline" ever. It moves like a homework assignment and falls into the trap of playing the sort of background music that feeds all of our negative stereotypes. But it is an honest attempt to show Americans that Muslims, like Christians and Jews, come in all shapes, sizes and political persuasions.

This may be your bodies way of warning you that those devotee are practicing a "left handed" sadhana.

You may be a human divine rod to sense out sahajiyas.

Just joking a little syama.

Actually it may be some sort of nervous reaction.How do you feel about those devotees personaly?

Karthikji,

Fear not I was not hurt.But I had to rethink my position.I go back and forth on this one, and really shouldn't form a solid opinion based on my scant information or experience and certainly not from any one TV show.The innocent people portrayed may have been the exception to the rule.

Concerning SP he was sent to the English speaking world by Bhaktisiddhanta.And dispite the use of the same scriptures the mayavadis come to a distinctly different conclusion then we do.Christian understanding of God is Vaisnava, albeit at a beginning level.This shows at least a hope that something further could be built upon it.

Advaitins are set in their ways and will change only after a long long period.Similar can be said for all those that are overly attached to their religious labels its true.But it was worth a shot.Imagine if the pope just turned vegetarian what effect there would be in the world's karma as so many would take to his example.

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-10-2002).]

You may be right Karthik.Its true I don't have personal experience living around a large Muslim community.

I doubt that SP was in awe of the Pope in any way.However the influencial position held by the Pope in the eyes of so many millions meant that if the Pope could be educated to a deeper understanding then the masses would follow.

SP was very tolerant and patient as this account illustrates.He also courtiously stepped past drunks that were blocking the door to his bowery apt. in New York. Humble soul.

Advaitins, he refered to also as Mahatmas,but let's be honest in the final analysis they are opposed to Bhakti.

The account of Rama banishing Sita to the forest is repeated in the ninth canto of SB.

Hmmmmmm......

On the PBS show Frontline which aired last night they did a two hour show on Islam.It was very good and you may want to watch for it.

I really feel sorry for a lot of the Muslims that are being falsley portrayed by these fanatics.They need to speak out forcefully against the fanatics.

That said the so-called jihadis should be exterminated where ever they are active.Hunted down like the dogs they are.From Kashmir to the Phillipines to Chechnia(sp) to Palestine, all they do is murder.

Originally posted by shiva:

The amount you should use depends on the form and age of the herb.

The fresher the herb ,the stronger.

I have taken in it a powder form,which is weak.

The stick form is much more potent.

Yes i know about mormon tea,I did not know it was the same as indian ephedra,have you tried it?

Fresher being stronger makes sense.No I haven't tried Moromon Tea myself.I do use the chinese form though because it is so cheap.I had never heard of Indian ephedra and was wondering about its name.

I sometimes buy the twigs and brew them a little longer then the receipe above and it is strong.But also calming if you don't take too much.Nice combo,Calm and alert.

One herbalist won't sell me more then a little at a time.he knows my tendacy for excess.He said "You already use ginseng like a vegetable, that's enough".

I happened to take a pinch of the powder this morning.I be crusin'along.

It has a wonderful quality of deepening ones breathing pattern.You just find yourself taking in long deep breaths without consciously intending to do so.

This herb is getting a bad rap in the media because of the overuse and abuse by the overweight and overtrainging weight lifting groups.

Some groups are trying to get it banned in the USA.

Originally posted by shiva:

Actually the only problems that have been reported ,is when people take those over the counter pills.

They contain a very high dosage of caffeine.

Do not mix caffeine(causes hyper tension),with ephedra,it will make you anxious,irritable,and raises the heart rate to a very fast level.

By itself ephedra is very safe and has been used for thousands of years,without bad side effects.

The over the counter sinus medications contain pseudoephedrine and no caffeine.Although what you may find in some health food stores for weight loss stimulation etc. may contain various dangerous combinations.Like ma-huang and kola nut or gaurana etc.

The following is from Chinese Tonic Herbs byRon Teegurrden:

To prepare Ma Huang, blend ten one inch twigs Of Ma Huang with a small amount of cinnamon.Boil the Ma Huang first for 15 minutes then add the cinnamon for another 5 minutes.Let it steep for a few more minutes.This tea promotes circulation, warms the skin, hands and feet, and in case of fever, will promote perspiration.

"Ma Huang is used with licorice root to strengthen the Lung energy and warm the body.Used with cinnamon, licorice, and ginseng, it is known as "Genghis Khan Alertness Tea" since it was used by the Guards of Ghengis Khan to stay awake(they were beheaded if they were caught dozing off while on guard duty).

...Be sure to use very little Ma Huang-it is very powerful".

He also writes"It has long been used by Taoists and Chan(Zen) monks before meditation before meditation since it sharpens the awareness without causing agitation or a "come-down" effect.

Shiva prabhu, do you know what the Indian version is called?

It grows in American deserts and here it is called Mormon Tea.

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

I think much is lost in semantic arguments. The jist of what was said, in my opinion, is that one who is serious will certainly beg for Krsna to come to him/her in the form of Sri Guru and that person should, at the time this pray is answered, take formal and substantial inititation.

 

Audarya lila,

 

Accepting guru has never been questioned.Everyone agrees that Krsna appears in the form of His devotee as well as in the heart.What it means to accept is sometimes in need of clarification.What is the a distinction between formal and substantial?Form and substance, are they necessarily the same?Which carries the heavier weight?

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting that one go out and pick a devotee for status sake and take initiation in order to belong to a club. The sastra is clear on the matter and that has been presented conclusively in this thread.

 

Yes, but yet it happens all the time.Peer pressure.A pyschological need to feel as though one belongs and is accepted by the larger body that is significant in one's life.To fulfill an ecclesiastically mandated requirement for that acceptance is going on presently.You are correct it is not back by sastra.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was asked why everyone doesn't get a spiritual master. He answered very simply and directly that for one who is sincere it is sure that he will get.

 

No doubt.But the question is often raised as to what form that has to be in.Vani? Vapuh? Both?Even if we say vapuh ultimately it is the instruction or vani coming from that vapuh form that gives it its value.

Disciple means dicipline and service. We approach Krsna through serving his servants. That is the very heart of Gaudiya theology.

 

Yes. And serving means to serve the will of the person being served.

 

If someone learns the will of A.C. Prabhupada, for example,and executes service accordingly, with a desire to please he and Krishna, is he not approaching Krishna?

 

Another very instructive thing that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said in this regard is that one should pray with all his/her heart for a proper guide and that if one continues to find that there is none they should go on praying for mercy.

 

Yes the Lord in the heart directs one to whom He wishes to reveal Himself through to a prospective devotee.Not by outside pressure.We agree here I know.

 

At some point one will have to conclude that the problem is with oneself and not with any lack of bona fide vaishnavas who are worthy of taking shelter of. Krsna is unlimited, so if after a long period we still find that we think no one is qualified, the conclusion is that the deficiency is in ourselves not in Krsna or his devotees.

 

 

Sure.We fool ourselves into thinking we are sincere all the time.Its always helpful to be aware of our deficencies.

 

But with all the wealth of siksa available how could anyone claim to not be able to find a guru?

 

I know some will think I'm part of the ritvik camp.I do accept many of their points.But their insistence,or at least suggestion, that others who accept disciples in a formal manner are envious offenders keeps me from them.

 

theist

LOL!!!!

Rati said;

To say the mantra initiation is not essential is totally ludicrous, for without the mahA-mantra, where is the movement?

I admit experiencing a bit of confusion over the use of the words mantra, initiation, diksa etc. while trying to follow this topic.

Does mantra diksa refer to gaytri/ brahmana initiation?

Is the Holy Name dependent on formal initiation?

Is gayatri initiation necessary for the development of full blown of love of Godhead or is the Name alone sufficent?

When reading the words of Sri Caitanya in Cc Madhya 15.107-111 it all seems so clear.But when reading the quotes from the gosvamis offered in the purports I seem to see contradictions to those very clear simple instructions of Mahaprabhu.

Please show me what I am missing here.

theist

But be very careful with the ma-huang.A little dose will do you.It raises blood pressure considerably so check with you local herbalist first.Right shivaji?

Originally posted by Rati:

Getting back to my above post, all of those bureacratic layers in the large institution interfere with any productive relationship between spiritual master and disciple. From the above quote, we can see that Srila Prabhupada had to rely on the temple presidents to bring him qualified candidates. Under that situation, the guru is not examining the candidate for dIkSA, but the elder godbrothers are doing that job. That is one very tricky house of cards, when you think about it. Perhaps that whole scenario could be a root cause of many problems over the years. Don't really know, just theorizing.

Yes Rati,just imagine Prabhupada's situation.Unprecedented really.Krsna was using him in such a magnanimous way.Actually initiating the world through him.

Problems arose but I think in the course of history they will be shown to be small when compared to the successes.But then i guess that is up to how well his disciples, students and other vaisnava's build on that foundation.

Originally posted by Jagat:

I would just like to compliment Raga on the high quality of his posts. This is not to minimize the value of other posters, but Dear Theistji, anyone like you who reads this thread will learn quite a bit about Gaudiya Vaishnava theories of initiation. The discussion has in general been of a very high quality with few digressions into the nether regions. Congratulations to all!

Yes I feel I am learning alot here.It is a special talent to take high concepts that are from a different time and culture and make them understandable to people in general.It is about being able to properly critique the one you are speaking to and this is especially difficult on a public forum.

My appreciation to raga and others whose patience I must surely try.

Initiation means sect. It means separating yourself. It means defining yourself. You cannot be all things to everyone. You have to be something. When you take initiation, you are taking a stand. You are committing to a sambandha.

I agree with this but also see it this way:

Separating and defining yourself, both exernally in conduct and internally in thinking feeling and willing,according to the prescriptions laid down by a bona fide acarya is the quintessence of initiation.

Yeah, those be the one's.

Sadachara? Pure regulative actions(duties)?

Needed.A comprehensive glossary of common sanskrit and Bengali terms as they are used in GV.In one book.I can guaruntee sales of at least one copy.

"..he installs the mantras.."

Thank you raga, that illustration really brought it home for me.

I seem to remember a letter were Srila A.C.Prabhupad was considering stopping giving that diksa mantra out, at least so profusly.I haven't read it recently so I may not have that correct.

Is mantra-diksa to be prescribed for everyone, or should it be restricted to those who demonstrate the ability to maintain themselves solidly in the mode of goodness?

Whereas everyone can benefit from the Name no matter what level they start from,I'm not sure if the same can be true for mantra-diksa.Is their any detrimental effects that can come by irregular or improper practice of mantra diksa?Or by taking a vow and then stopping altogether?

raga,

For future reference I don't understand a word of samskrt.Sorry.

Since we have agreed that the Name is sufficent for all success, and that name has been spread throughout the world by the line of Bhaktisiddhanta...well,I won't ask you the question as the answer is obvious.

I sense that this has been the lurking backdrop of this discussion in some respects anyway.

I don't know your position but some contend Bhaktisiddhanta was never initiated formally therefore his mantras have no effect,therefore those initiated in his line aren't really, and so need to be properly initiated by someone in some other Gaudiya group.

Originally posted by Rati:

To say the mantra initiation is not essential is totally ludicrous, for without the mahA-mantra, where is the movement?

 

 

Rati, these were your words, which inspired the questions, and the questions were mine.

The quote when carried over the second time in ragas post does give a wrong impression.

theist

theist

Originally posted by raga:

It is sufficient. No need for diksa. Even there no need to study shastra, to associate with devotees, to visit the holy dhama, to accept a guru at all, to follow any regulative principles and so on. The Holy Name will take care.

 

But it may take you a while.

 

Therefore we do all these things. They help us to very quickly come to the platform of chanting suddha-nama.

Understood.

raga,

Thanks for the clarification of mantra diksa.

I take it we agree the Name stands independent of such procedures.

Is it true that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in terms of time place and circumstance when he added the giving of the sacred thread?

Originally posted by raga:

 

Indeed, it is related by Haridas Thakur in the Caitanya Caritamrta how even the reflection of the Holy Name (namAbhAsa) delivers a person. The difference between the chanting of namabhasa and suddha-nama is a feeling of special relationship, visesa sambandha, with Bhagavan.

 

This is where the relevance of receiving diksa and the diksa-mantras comes in. To eventually come to the platform of suddha-nama, the diksa-mantras are given to facilitate the development of a specific relationship with the mantra-devata.

raga,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that the name alone is not sufficent to bring one to the platform of pure chanting but only to the level of liberation that is produced by nama-abhasa.

But what about verse 109

"By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entaglement in material activities.After this, one becomes very attracted to Krsna, and thus dormant love for Krsna is awakened."

It appears that you are adding a step,gayatri diksa,suggesting the Name alone is not sufficent.

 

Many items are helpful in chanting the name, but isn't the Name alone really sufficent?

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-09-2002).]

Just saw something on the news last night about this.

The Bush administration with Congressional Republicans, is working to overturn the prohibition against public schools being single sex.Some Democrats are also coming on board.

I also remember those slippery pencils.

Especially for Paul, but also for us all.

This was copied from leyh's thread, HE LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTIONS.

“Suppose you are trying to do something. Due to your inexperience if you sometimes fail, that is not a fault. You are trying." (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, Chapter 7)