theist

Shvu,

 

I'm trying to understand this but am a bit slow, so please be a little patient.

 

My question is why would a liberated impersonalist even perceive of others in need of enlightenment?

 

And being liberated according to their conception of the term, what conception of the world would even remain to label as false?

 

Is it that what we perceive as someone preaching and writing etc. is just our perception of the matter and in fact no individual soul is really active there, having already been absorbed in the Brahman?

 

Is this the impersonalist position?

 

I had trouble wording that.I hope the question is clear.

 

Thanks,

theist

leyh,

 

There seems to be a continuing debate on this point amongst some.It is an interesting question and a natural one.How could a thinking being not wonder about his source?

 

One point is that the Brahman effulgence is also the spiritual world.

 

I'll offer one quote from Sri Isopanisad Mantra 16 purport by SP for your consideration.

 

" The all-pervading feature of the Lord- which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls- is known as Brahman."

 

I find it fun to think about this question, but avoid the emotionalism that often surrounds the issue.

 

All will be revealed to us in due course, as we reenter that eternal atmosphere.

 

theist

Why do those who hold the view that this world is false, and that ultimately there are no individual souls, bother opening up mathas and preach etc.?

 

I imagine Sankara was considered jivanmukta, so who was he writing his bhasya on the Vedanta sutra for?

 

Was that effort just considered the winding down of his prarabdha-karma or something?

 

Respectfully,

theist

karthic_v,

 

Before you pay out 600 bucks for folio,check out this deal @ http://krishna.org .

 

They are offering mp3 disks[21]that have all of Prabhupada's audio recordings,1300 hrs.Morning walks conversations bhajan's etc.They are selling the set for $75 and they give you a FREE cd-rom that containsall the books.

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-10-2002).]

Originally posted by Rati:

On the other hand, what meaning would nitya have for a nitya siddha if that person fell down? From a purely logical standpoint, it does not seem very reasonable to think that a nitya siddha could ever come under the influence of maya - under the influence of the internal potency, Hladini-sakti yes, but not the external potency.

Rati, I am not advocating any position either way, but consider this.Someone from the other side of the debate could suggest that when the fallen nitya-siddha returns to his position he would find himself in the exact same position due to the absence of the time factor having any influence of past or future in eternity.So once returned,from the eternal side, it could be said he never left.

 

Again, I have no realization that I am advocating.

 

This just appears to be a situation in which our conditioned by space/time logic may fail us.

 

What do you think?

 

------

edited for clarity

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-10-2002).]

Peace diet Tarun prabhu?Sounds good.I'll take a plate.

I agree.Except maybe on the refugee issue,which was more or less a just a side point.

 

The reason being is those camps are terrorist strong holds.

 

Actions and reactions.Who can trace it out?

 

It's just a tangled mess.

 

theist

Karthik-v,

 

I believe you are correst that SP taught sex for procreation only was the idle.I have also heard that on that day 50 rounds was to be chanted first.I haven't read that but I can see the sense in it, if the consciousness of the parents at the time of conception effects the child in some way.

 

As to sastra, I for sure wouldn't know.Does shastra even cover such details?Or is that left to guru to set for his disciples according to time place and circumstance as he sees fit?

 

jijaji, no offence taken.From reading some of your posts you appear to be of a differen school of thought.Monist?Perhaps once in iskcon but no longer a vaisnava in belief?

If so why care about the rules the vaisnava's teach?

 

I am curious about Sankara's teachings and maybe you will help me here.

 

What did he have to say about sex.I have heard that sannyasins from that school are very strict about not even accidently touching women.And some will even take full bath if it occurs.

 

Orange polyester?I hope at least it was a dhoti and not a leisure suit with a wide white belt and white shoes.

 

theist

gHari,

 

Thanks for responding.I should have been more clear.

 

In the section of the purport that you have made bold it says "...no one can be accepted as pure as Bramha..."I was refering to that, when I said pure soul.

 

By rebirth I meant twice born,spiritual birth.

 

I should also say I'm not trying to infer that we should neglect the presence of Supersoul as He appears as guru externally.

 

I see Supersoul,in one sense, as the only initiator.Whether through His devotee or directly from within.

 

I have similar questions regarding CC Madhya 15.106-111.

 

your ally,

theist

That's it.I've had enough.If you're gonna bring Einstein into it I'm going back to the TV set.

But I thought everyone was ten feet tall back then.That means bigger humans need bigger chariots and so it would take ten or twelve midget horses to pull then at least.

 

Now I'm even more confused.

Good point nachiketa2.I eat vegan with the exception of maha-prasad when it is offered.That I never refuse.

 

Dairy just does not work in my body.Nor are the cows here protected.To the contrary.

 

In another context, like a village run by Nanda maharaja,I would use it.

 

Eggs are just gross.Products of some chickens mentrual cycle.El-yucko!

 

 

I wonder why the fuss over what iskcon sannyasi's say about sex.I prefer to hear from SP's tapes.He said "Who you hear from, that is your guru", so I'm more than a little cautious.

 

I remember hearing an early lecture tape where SP was telling his students not to preach the four reg's., but rather to induce people to chant Hare Krishna and take prasadam.The point was by connecting the consciousness, through the senses,to Krishna,one would become more and more attracted, as He is the All-attractive. The other things follow along more naturally.

 

Anyway this is a Sankaracarya thread so let me ask anyone what he taught on celibacy and the like.

 

theist

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Very true. But, is it possible for someone who is so addicted to earning a US degree or US dollars, to give up sex? Aren't Kamini and Pratishta asha most difficult to overcome even as per Srimad Bhagavatam? Transcending sense enjoyment and experiencing spiritual bliss is possible - not for all, but for a few. The majority still needs sense enjoyment within rules. Isn't that why we have Grahastha asrama? How come all the great rshis of the past enjoyed sex to their heart's content before retiring into aranyas? Here the question is: Are the rules prescribed in ISKCON having any shastric basis? And how come no other acharya before GV never forbade sex? Could it be that GV stance on sex is more an outcome of Muslim influence?

Who is forbiding sex?SP even helped some of his disciples get married.Grhastra ASHRAM is a holy order as I see it.

 

Doesn't a particular guru have the option of defining somewhat what it means to be his disciple?

 

Some may be disciples and some followers in a more general sense.

 

 

What is the purpose of yoga practice if not to transcend mundane desires?All paths agree with the necessity to do so.

 

So even in marriage this should be kept in mind.Your spouse is not a sex toy.If loving affection is really there we will be helping each other develop bhakti as the primary goal.

 

The mind and material molded senses will demand so many things from us.Some will power is required to get us through the transitional stage.

 

Will power alone will never suffice however.

 

Nothing can replace the actual surrender to Krishna.He will carry us.

Is it true that both the Palestinians and the Jews were fighting British occupation of the region just prior to the UN giving the land to the Jews after WW2?

 

Anybody know the history of the region?

mahak,

 

Lot of truth in what you said.It works both ways though doesn't it?

 

I see a lot of racial and religious hatred coming from the Palestinians.

 

Equal vision of all living beings as parts of Krishna would solve the problem,but in the midst of the chaos not many are interested.

 

theist

jijaji said,

Q:

"Don't you believe that giving up the pleasures of the senses will produce a different consciousness?"

 

A:

"My personal experience, is that it produced the consciousness of fanaticism."

jijaji,

 

I accept that merely trying to renounce material pleasure can produce a frustrated fanatic.

 

But as you know one can also renounce material sense 'pleasure' by experiencing spiritual pleasure.Trading up.Like giving up a Saab for a Bently or a Mazarotti.

 

A problem arises however when we find ourselves being dishonest and engaging in pretense.Trying to fool ourself as well as others.

 

What do you think?

 

 

gHari,

 

It appears like a contradiction to me.Perhaps you can help me understand it.

 

Does someone really have to be a pure soul just to be willing to accept rebirth?

 

It just appears as if one statement nullifies the other.

 

Thanks

Fellow seekers,

 

Real initiation is always available to us as this quote from SP shows.

 

"The Lord is within every livng entity as the Supersoul, and He initiated Brahma because Brahma was willing to receive the initiation.The Lord can similarily initiate everyone who is inclined to have it."SB 2.9.7 purport

Our Guru could not be closer.

 

your ally,

That sounds reasonable enough.Hey, maybe that was the time of Noah's flood.

 

Just a wild speculation, I know.

I pity the clean up crew. YUCK!