theist

Would someone kindly describe what the practice of siddha-pranali actually is.In doing so please be aware that someone (myself) who would ask this question would also most likely not be familiar with enough sanskrit terminology and would require a very simplfied definition.

Maybe just a walk through of a day in the life of one engaged in this practice without the concern of its history,merits or the qualifications need to properly practice it.

Appreciated in advance.

theist

I thought I might add Gauracandra's opening lines for this thread as follows.

Gauracandra:

I figured a more general discussion of Siddha Pranali might be interesting. Perhaps someone can fill in the details, but my basic understanding is that the guru reveals certain aspects like one's eternal name, form, service, bodily features etc.... I might be mistaken, but I think then one is supposed to meditate on the pastimes of Radha and Krsna as they occur in 8 points of time during the day, and [i think] one slowly introduces oneself into these pastimes.

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-25-2002).]

I need a cold shower.

This is strange.I went to their site to see what it was and following a link the sponser claims to be Tripurari's disciple.

What is up with this?

shvu wrote:

That is your background. When I view tattvavaada and other positions from an advaitic perspective they fall way short. This is how it is with everone. But the fact is, Advaita has withstood and successfully debunked criticism from several quarters over the centuries and stands strong even to this day, thus proving it appears attractive to many and is also based on sound logic.

Withstanding strong criticize is also relative.The dualist would say they just won't accept defeat.

Maya also appears attractive to many.When we talk of many this points to the existing individuality of the jiva.You have yet to harmonize how the jiva knows no beginning or end yet becomes broken off from the Brahman and covered by maya and then becomes absorbed(extinquished) in liberation.

Again, this is from a deluded perspective as the Jiiva is incapable of imagining anything about Mukti. Any picture, good or bad, will invariably be false.

Yes the jiva when under the influence of the deluding energy cannot see clearly.This holds true for all schools.But Krishna can impart the revelation into the heart of jiva.

Hare Krishna

Originally posted by Shashi:

It is being a big box of CUCUMBERS.

But oh my goodness gracious me they are being all gone bad by now. I will be throwing them out but first I am saving the cardboard box they were rotting in.

 

 

Cucumbers as a prize?Better idea.Send cash $US.Big bills.

Mankind really hasn't got a clue as what the history of this globe is.Or even the full scope on what is going on around us now.

Our sense perception is soooo limited.

I don't know about the central sun idea.Sounds strange, but then reality can be stranger than fiction.It's all dream energy afterall, and what is impossible in a dream.

leyh said:

"Sectarianism is de-personalizing in the sense that devotees are no longer recognized as people and are instead impersonally perceived as members of this camp or that clique..."

I agree.Extended false ego.My family, my nation, my race, my camp& clique.

Isn't this the perverted reflection of the groupings of devotees that exist in the spiritual world?

Different souls will be attracted to different associations.That is natural.But that will happen by the direction of Supersoul.Our coersive recruiting tactics are just a disturbance.

The best way to attract sincere souls is to always be intensifying our Krishna consciousness.

Seems to me anyway.

shvu,

I appreciate you explainations of the advaita viewpoint.In all honesty it sounds like word jugglery.It also sounds rather morbid when compared to the dualistic conceptions of vaisnavism.

No need to every worry about me being offended by someone holding a differing viewpoint or challenging mine.

Hare Krishna

By morbid I was meaning that the 'extinquishing' of the jiva's awareness of individual self and lacking of loving relations with Krishna appears like a state of death.

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-24-2002).]

Jiva = Brahman veiled in ignorance.

So how Brahman becomes veiled is yet to be explained by the Advaitans.

All of Brahman becomes veiled?Or parts?

If all then the liberated state no longer exists as long as some consciousness of maya is experienced anywhere by anyone.

If parts then the indivisble Brahman has become divided.

If divided into parts then that would be the creation of the jiva's.We have already agreed that the jiva's are never created.

Why not one and difference simultaneously shvu?

Au contraire, it means nothing more can be said about it, that will be true to it's meaning. Krishna calls Maya his mysterious power, thereby *dodging* it himself.

Yes it is mysterious to us but not to Krishna.

Imagine a strange and unknown place you experience in a dream. Where is this place when you wake up? Was it a real place at any point of time? What was it resting on? The same logic applies quite well in this case.

The place still exists when the jiva awakens.The total dream energy rests on MahaVishnu.The individual dream of the particular jiva ends but others are still left dreaming within the context of His dream.Dreams within His dream.

It's a real dream.Temporary but real.

theist

Thanks for the link shvu.I read the five points.I still find Lord Caitanya's simultaneous acceptance of oneness along with the duality more attractive.

Sankara's calling maya just 'inexplicable' is very unsatisfying.To be frank it sounds like a dodge.

Anyway I've appreciated the chat.Sorry if I hounded you a bit.I'm part pit bull but will relax it now.

Hare Krishna bro.

Originally posted by Tarun:

To all gopis that fell before,

That traveled down through HaridvAr.

I'm glad they came along, knew not where they belong,

That vrajavAsI mundane corp.

To all gopas that fell down smash

Drank liquor, gambled smokin' hash

I'm glad they fell down wrong, I dedicate this song

To vrajavAsIs fallen before.

To vaikunthAdis fallen for... for what?

To enjoy as Center

Some would say.

To dream as Central

Actor in the play.

Return is sure, once repent.

To find no need for lament.

Waking from the dream to find,

They had really been there,

All the time.

Originally posted by shvu:

Theist,

 

Sorry for sitting on the long answer. I don't see myself having the time/inclination to pull out pages of quotes from Shankara. To summarize, the Jiva is never *created* at some point of time (btw, this is the position of all schoolso of Vedaanta) which implies ignorance or avidya is beginningless.

 

Cheers

 

 

shvu,

Long quotes were never desired.

Since everyone agrees that the jiva's were never 'created'what is the distinction between the adaita and dvaita schools?

Would the Advaitan position be that factually the jiva never really exists in the first place?

Please address Citta Hari's question's regarding how Brahman becomes deluded and what supports that deluding energy.

I sense this goes to the heart of the difference between the two schools and I hope to understand this point more clearly.

Thanks

theist

Originally posted by Citta Hari:

Shvu wrote:

 

"We are the deluded souls who perceive duality. The reality is, there is only Brahman and nothing else, implying all souls are Brahman. The difference in the case of the Jivanmukta is, there is no more individual there to perceive duality [there is no I] and since there is no I, there is nothing else either. Liberation according to Shankara, is the realization of the nature of one' self as nothing but Brahman."

 

 

I have some questions about the idea that the jiva, although identical with Brahman, becomes deluded and thus perceives duality.

 

How does Brahman become deluded into thinking itself to be a separate jiva in the first place? What is the support (asraya) of the deluding influence? It can't be the jiva, since the jiva is the product of ajnana. The only thing left is Brahman, but if Brahman is the support, then its essential nature as jnana (jnanasvarupa) is compromised. How can this be?

 

 

Hi shvu,

I am reposting this once again s the questions remain fresh and in view for all.I'll add something to your last response shortly.

shivaji,

I think you are on the right track.Are you familiar with the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu?

Father Bites Off Son's Thumb

.c The Associated Press

PHOENIX (AP) - A man who told police he bit off his 2-year-old son's thumb, and apparently held it in his mouth for about six hours, was arrested for child abuse and aggravated assault, authorities said Sunday.

Police responding to a 911 call Saturday night found Raymond Jones running on a street naked, said police Sgt. Bill Knight.

Jones, 39, told detectives he had taken several hits of the hallucinogen PCP and had swallowed his son's thumb because he wanted to mix their DNA, Knight said.

However, Jones apparently had the thumb in his mouth rather than swallowing it, and coughed it out while he was being interviewed by police.

The child was found alone, several blocks away at the entrance of the trailer park where they lived.

Doctors were not able to reattach the thumb.

I long ago tried it and it worked.

Your putting aside you conclusions sounds a little susoect to me.

The point is God is a loving Person who will not neglect any sincere soul in their search for truth.And from Him knowledge as well as forgetfullness is granted.So he is Self-revealing.

Jagat pointed out that God is the Soul of the soul.No one is closer.No one more willing to aid the jiva.

No offense taken.But how could you as an impersonalist ask with sincerity since you already believe God is senseless and couldn't hear the question in the first place?

Rati said:

They're just kind of creepy. I can't even imagine what they have been living on....

I don't know how to tell you without adding to your creeped out feeling bro.

Reminds me of the time that i got up to get some water after have been in bed just a few minutes.Right above my chest I saw this spider abou two feet above me.He was propeling down from the ceiling.I just knew the lil' devil had been up there just waiting for me to go to sleep.Maybe for hours.

Okay, you have given me some good food for further reflection jndas.I'll see if I can come up with a less obvious example as the one I used is so clearly labeled as an allegory.

Perhaps Rahu's head or Citrakatu's ten million wives.

I'll look for something and then start a new thread.

I hope you will stick with me on this.

theist

shvu said:

I cannot believe in a God that I have only heard from others.

Yet from reading your posts on other threads you seem to accept transcendental reality as undifferentiated Brahman.

How did you come to that.Heard from others perhaps?Or did the Brahman reveal itself to you in some way?And if so why you and not others?

But in the text it is described as an old history.itihasam puratanam.Then in the purport SP explains that that refers to the living entity who has an old history of living in the material body.

Clearly the verses that follow make it very clear that it is an allegory.I am just wondering how pervasive this might be and some stories may not be so obvious.

Perhaps this should not be on this thread?Maybe we need a 'how to hear the Purana's thread' or something.

Philosophy is about learning to ask the right questions.

 

And this becomes perfect when those questions are direct towards one of knows the true answers.

A true scientist keeps an open mind.Why not with a neutral but open mind ask God if He exists or not?

You needn't 'believe' before doing this.It's kind of like a lost person calling out to see if anyone is around who can lead him.

"Hey God, do You really exist"?

I'm serious.If you are sincere in wanting to know, an answer is quarunteed.

Good points jndas.I feel I am experiencing some growing pains in these areas.What I thought I knew is being tested internaly.What I took for knowledge, Supersoul is showing me, is mere belief.Let me add by this I refer to my own belief vs. true knowing.I am not refering to what has been presented as knowledge in the SB and elsewhere.I accept SB as divine and Holy Writ.It is just my own personal vision of that writ that is in question.

Hopefully I can obtain a proper understanding to strengthen my faith without sowing doubts at the same time.It feels like a tightrope walk in a way, but let me try.

Here is an example from SB 4.25.9:

atra te kathayiñye ’mum

itihäsaà purätanam

puraïjanasya caritaà

nibodha gadato mama

SYNONYMS

atra—herewith; te—unto you; kathayiñye—I shall speak; amum—on this subject matter; itihäsam—history; purätanam—very old; puraïjanasya—in the matter of Puraïjana; caritam—his character; nibodha—try to understand; gadataù mama—while I am speaking.

TRANSLATION

In this connection I wish to narrate an old history connected with the character of a king called Puranjana.Please try to hear me with great attention.

PURPORT [excerpt]

The great sage Närada Muni turned toward another topic—the history of King Puraïjana. This is nothing but the history of King Präcénabarhiñat told in a different way. In other words, this is an allegorical presentation. The word puraïjana means “one who enjoys in a body.” This is clearly explained in the next few chapters. Because a person entangled in material activities wants to hear stories of material activities, Närada Muni turned to the topics of King Puraïjana, who is none other than King Präcénabarhiñat.

So here we see what is clearly an allegory but it is described also as an old history in the verse.

Where does this start and stop in the scriptures?

You are right in pointing out the problem arises for me when incarnations are spoken of.

I firmly accept the transcendental form of Krishna as the origin of all including the brahmanjyoti, so I am not trying to deconstruct lila to point to impersonalism.

Drat this life of ignorance!

Comments?

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-22-2002).]

Originally posted by Tarun:

Tum kaun? KAma; Tum kaun? Krodha; Tum kaun? Lobha..

In this way, all ten heads were questioned & revealed their ID.

Now if this thread doesn't belong in KRSNa Talk Forum, Who does?

Or u may as well cancel/foreclose KRSNa Talk Forum altogether.

Tum kaun means what?Who are you or what is your nature, something like that?

Tarun please elaborate.Where can I read this?

Thanks

theist