theist

I couldn't understand these differences or gradations on my own. I would need each point flushed out for me. Not only the depth of realization is past my grasp but I don't have a clue on the rules of grammer etc. Oh well. I'll just have to wait and work on what is right in front of me.

I agree. But you say he is wrong about the book. but then you were one of the editors. I assume his students would agree with Danavir. There are many of us in the middle who have no established opinion. I am sure I am wishing for a fantasy but wouldn't it be nice to see two leaders debate and one of them actually admiting his mistake publically and then they agree to move on? It would be a great example of truth seeking if nothing else. Oh well, I always seem to come up with these things on cloudless days when I don't have more substantial things to occupy my mind. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Like most of these controversies the principles write some statments, publish it, and then are not heard of again. Leaving the general devotees including, lay people, to argue over it. Probably won't happen but I would like to see Danavir and Tripurari Mahahraja's discuss their points on a forum where participation from others was closed off. As I am sure both are very busy in their respective services this could be a prolonged debate over several weeks. Like a chess game through the mail. This pace would allow time for the gallery to consider the points made for themselves and maybe discuss them on a separate thread. Since Audarya Fellowship is the most open Vaisnava forum on the web(IMO) this would be the perfect place. Just a thought. Hare Krsna

start a thread on all the problems you see in what certain Christians teach and respect this one for what topic it has been established for?

Main Entry: heno·the·ism Etymology: German Henotheismus, from Greek hen-, heis one + theos god —more at SAME 1860 : the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods

A new word word for me. I'll try to learn something about what it means. Please help me better understand the difference between henotheism and theism.

I think Umapati is taking the position that Prabhupada was teaching those descending principles in a time and circumstance that is most relevant for him and in a way that will emphasize certain aspects of siddhanta over others accordingly. He is not advocating an ascending approach IMO. He has chosen to hear from Srila Prabhupada and is only trying to show fidelity.

and continue chanting and praying. Staying down is not an option. As beginners (which most of us are) we tend to under estimate the degree of control that maya has on our senses. It may be best for some of us to first realize our dependence on Hrskesh as the true controler of even maya and forget the verbal vows for a while. But we still must aim at making our practical life our vow trying to show our chasity to Krsna at every step. Time is on our side as we are eternal. We will get out of birth and death and attain love for Krsna at some point. Don't doubt that. In this culture one always hears pop songs rather we like it or not. One has given me strength. Some line from a song by some Australian band I think goes like this. "I get knocked down, but I get up again, never gonna keep me down..." Don't waste too much time getting down on yourself for smoking some pot. Krsna has seen it all before and is just waiting for you to increase your dependence on Him. As I reread this post I realize I am talking to myself as well as guestji. So often the truth. Hare Krsna

Trying to bring the thread back on line a bit. Concerning the Passion of Christ film, I am presently not inclined to see the film because of its reported realism. Although I think that very graphic realism will have a profound affect in showing many to what degree lovers of God are willing to go to in obeying the Lord. In a similar way I couldn't watch a film depicting the graphic caning of Hari das Thakur through 22 market places. It may be that that I just couldn't face that degree of having to face my own unwillingness to sacrifice and undergo the most minimal personal austerity to please Krsna. But I also don't like to see those crucifixes of Christ hanging on the cross.

You have done shiva ( and us all) a great service by doing some investigative work. This world is indeed filled with people of all sorts of imaginative opinions to back up their atheistic views. They often cloak themselves as "scholars" to add legitemacy to their speculations in order to gain some idolization from people in general and to sell more books. Simply cheaters who devotees would be wise to avoid. Time is short and each birth too valuable to waste in our journies Homeward. Hare Krsna

for making this thread much more than I had hoped for. I grew today because of your words. "..in the Ganga with Gaura" You saved me with that image gHari prabhu. As I read that one line I received a vision, yes a vision, of Gauranga bathing in the Ganga some distance upsteam from myself and the same water that washed over His body flowed down to wash over mine. Hare Krsna all

Yeah, so maybe you will get off Myra's back and stick to the topic a bit?

Not pressure relly from a temple commander or something.lol I really couldn't handle that. "Time to brush your teeth prabhu" No thanks. I mean the situation I find myself in is pressure enough when I can muster the strength to look at it. My 'death' is certain. After that birth is certain. No genuine happiness in between. Sayuja mukti sounds like such a blah, jay around unconscious for God knows how long, get bored and then pop back out into birth and death again. Nah, that's not an option. The inner voice keeps saying "Just love KrsnaJust love Krsna" But I am just to friggin' proud or stupid or both. It's a trapped cornered feeling that I live with. No real transcendental bliss. But its better to have this pressure and struggle then to be 100% sold out to maya. It's a start at least.

it would be helpful to know one's varna. I have tried to analyze this within my own mind and all I see is a confusing mixture. I also think this pressure may be necessary for me. It may help drive me to really fall at Krsna's feet.

Patience..? OK But when does that come? I've been chanting off and on for a while now and I still don't see Krsna. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yeah I think this gets close to home. It's a process and determination and patience are needed. I hate austerity. Maybe this is part of the reason for my pretense. Not willing to make the real change of heart but knowing I must. Painful spot to be in. So I choose to let my mind fool me. Thanks for the help folks. Anything more on this subject would be of great interest and usefullness. Hare Krsna

This is very deep and I will try to focus more on what you say. But isn't this the same for everyone including the atheist as well? I see my position similar to the thirsty man who goes to the rivers edge and instead of drinking the water he spends all his time turning to those behind him and trying to describe the qualities of the water. "Oh its very good, you must come and have some..." An intelligent person would first drink some and then describe, drink more then describe some more. I have been fooling myself for so long.

gal_a is attempting to be such a wing. Get it ?

Kulapavana, Yes I accept what you say. But then why do I continue to allow myself to be motivated from my lower 'self'even though it appears I understand this?

Yes I agree that transcendental knowledge is a constituent of my very self. But upon inspection I find I avoid the realization that is that knowledge. We are meant to be absorbing realizations and passing those realizations on others in a spirit of love. But for some reason I prefer the imitation of that. Accepting only that which sounds and appears like knowledge and passing that on. I clearly have fallen into some subtle trap.

I like to ask myself some simple fundamental questions. Like in this case why do I bother learning? What is the purpose of it? I have found that my mind has a prepared response already to go. "Well its the purpose of this human form of life to acquire knowledge about God and self-realization". Then I have to make it more personal and get past the stock answers, rather if they are true or not. Why do I bother reading Prabhupada's books? What is my real motive? To come to know Krsna and my relationship to Him? Well.... Thinking that I will at least acquire a better situation in the universe for myself in the future? Sounds good for the interim and surely plays a role. To get final liberation from my suffering? Definetly at some point. But a motive that is dark in nature is also strongly there. I have found that by superfically taking in some of these basic arguments put forward by the Gaudiyas I can then spit them out at the right time and defeat others with them. Establishing what feels like a superior position over them. Thus the Ravana in me reveals an ugly head. Trying to make use of the Lord's internal potency (in the form of divine knowledge) for the purpose of my own enjoyment. So while imitating a devotee, the truth is I am Ravana's servant. This is distressing to see an admit to myself. One way this dark tendancy manifests in engaging in sectarian quarrels with the motive of defeating someone else's belief's. Bringing them over to 'my' camp (way of thinking) so that I may savor the taste of ego victory and a sense of expansion as our numbers grow. The devotee will also debate but with the motive of helping liberate the person(s) he is talking to and pleasing his guru and Lord by that work. There and there alone he finds his own pleasure and satisfaction. He himself is satisfied and feels no need for any personal gain. Its kind of uncomfortable but I must always watch the nature of my true motives. It seems maya has a shadow like copy of all that is real for me to adopt assuming it to be the real thing and actual substance. Which brings up another related question. Why do I continue to choose to live in the shadows and avoid the Light?

Yes and we kill bugs with every step. This is the land of death. Unfortunate but unavoidable. Even if we let trees drop their fruit to the ground before we harvest we will still step on insects as we pick up the fruit. So we do the best we can. Actually meat eatters also eat more plants than vegetarians. Afterall what do the animals eat? A feed lot cow eats 16 pounds of grain feed to produce 1 pound of flesh. They wastfully cycle the grain through a cow just to taste its flesh and blood. So the arguement actually works in the reverse. If we skipped pumping up cows to slaughter there would be a vast amount of grain freed up to feed the starving and malnourished world wide. Now consider the extra land that would be freed up. And now picture all the water that gets wasted growing the extra grain that gets wasted cycling it through a cow. Then there is the consideration of all the waste that the cows and pigs produce daily that has to be dealt with. Just the cow farts alone are considered a major cause of global warming. I am serious. An ecological disaster to feed six billion humans. But then consider that people in "undeveloped" countries are increasing their meat consumption in imitation of the West. The problem is growing fast. Now factor in human population growth. Its a nightmare. Soon we will need four planet Earths just to feed ten billion humans. That is from a Harvard study. Even if we leave out the compassionate arguments, the enviromental ones alone should be enough to force us all to become vegan. If your friend believes in reincarnation ask him if he likes the prospect of his next so many lives being lived as an animal in a slaughterhouse having his throat cut. Run a google search on factory farming or animal rights. This is a very important issue for devotees. Bhagavatam says an animal killer cannot know God. So this is a fundemnetal aspect of preaching. Hare Krsna

atheism is just another temporary false designation. No one is really an atheist, it is just a passing mental condition, like being a drug addict. God lives in the "atheist" also, rather they admit it or not. I have a different problem. I believe in God but I resent Him for being number 1 with no chance left for me to take His spot. But this bummed theist condition is also just a temporary mental condition that I will grow out of someday and realize myself as the tiny servant of those that serve Him with love, ad infinitum.

the post was for Bahru who calls himself stonehearted. Nothing wrong with your picture or post or name or anything. it was just a simple joke that he will understand. I probably should not have even posted it. Sorry for the confusion. By the way what does vanamali mean?

Hugs?!?! After seeing the picture vanamali has posted I can only wonder what Frued would say. Hmmm....?