theist

A great example why when wants to know what Vaisnavism is in Mahaprabhu's line one MUST hear it only from a devotee in line from Mahaprabhu.

Yes thank you that is a wonderful quote.

Yes it is a narrow spectrum. It does not allow for the fulfillment of Prabhupada's desire that many if not all his disciples become shaktya-vesa avatars of the Lord.

Ritvik in in 1978 would have worked for Iskcon which it was intended to do but it was not meant as a formula for those outside the Iskcon structure. I'll say it again myself or anyone who wants to approach Srila Prabhupada for transcendental knowledge and enlightenment don't need an Iskcon, (ritvik or not), approved priest's stamp of approval. We only need to prayerfully open up Bhagavad-gita As It Is (1972) and proceed from there. Once the particapants in these types of conversations come to understand that Srila Prabhupada's teachings are much more than Iskcon the conversaton will progress and deepen but aslong as people see only through an Iskcon context it will remain a stagnant debate.

Operative word here is 'only'. What I am saying is that ultimately Supersoul IS in fact the only guide. It is Supersoul's voice that one must hear from their guru's mouth, books etc. If you are not hearing the Supersoul as the source you are not hearing your guru or your guru is not liberated. The reason is the Guru is the external manifestation of Supersoul. Beggar is right those that advocate only Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad is guru for 10,000 years are sentimental fools who are not actually hearing the real voice of Srila Prabhupada. They are simply an unnesscessary disturbance. Clearly Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to do as much or more for Krishna than he did. Devotee is not envious of others accomplishments he just wants Krishna to be pleased. Beggar I think you have a mistaken idea of what the "Supersoul Doctrine" I am trying to get across really is. The frustrating thing is I have not been able to communicate it very clearly.

When one hears and accepts the instructions from his guru to be Supersouls voice then he has really accepted guru. Supersoul is the one and only actual guru.

These are good points. It is a real illusion. Your reflection in a mirror is a real reflection even though it is not the real you. Birth and death only appear to real as long as one thinks the self is the body. But it is a real fact that the body has a birth and a death. It's true that Krishna could not die from an arrow to His heel anymore than Christ died on the cross. They only appeared that way from our point of view. The question at hand concerning Krishna is a little different though.

It is not in the Bardo Thodol, this is where we disagree. The Bardo Thodol addresses the experience from a purely Buddhist mental state. As I read it it was clear to me it would only be relevant to a Buddhist and a fairly advanced Buddhist by today's standard at that. In that way it is not objectivly explaining what the basic processes are that everyone goes through in that space between death and birth.

I know what you mean. There are many personal experiences of people that have had NDE's and some that have gone a long way into the process. I get an idea from those although they are all subjective a little different. A have gotten good glimpses of what to expect from here. www.near-death.com I am also curious to know more detail but perhaps it is just something that I'll have to file away until later. We have known this process after every 'death' and forgotten it again after every 'birth'. We will know again soon enough. For myself I am confident that I will still exist and be quite happy to have this physical body off my back for a while. Meanwhile the closer I can come to becoming God conscious before my next death means less cycles of this nonsense I will have to endure.

Don't be so silly. Be a little more serious.

Well you can always accept Lord Caintanya as the universal Guru and Lord Jagganatha as the Supreme Personality and receive the benefit of both. Please read the quote at the bottom of this post.

It is written specifically for the Buddhist mind and how a Buddhist should view the transition from body to body. Remember Buddhists assume there is no eternal soul and the Tibetan Book of the Dead is wholly from that perspective and is not applicable to others with different views on the issue.

It really is this simple and straightforward. And it was the ignorance of this fact that allowed thousands of people to be bluffed by the cheaters. This goes to the heart of Ray's article. Transcendental knowledge is protection. Where there is no such knowledge there is no protection.

Yes I have heard of it. I get it all the time depending on what I eat. Starchy food or dairy will always cause it with me. Try this experiment. Start noticing the tongues of other people to see ifthey also have coated tongues and you will be amazed at how common this is. Tongue scrapping should be done daily because bacteria can and does grow quickly on the coating. The coating will keep reappearing depending on the cleanliness of your stomach. It is not fur or white grass. Nothing to worry about. Hare Krishna

Ohoh, I better hide. I'll just have to let my signature phase speak for me. "If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universalguru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna,he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya13.18 purport "If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universalguru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna,he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya13.18 purport

This is a 100% bhogus statement. The idea of Siddha collaberating with the likes of Gurukripa is laughable.

From the Sun Diksa or Death BY: RAY LANTHIER Feb 18, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (SUN) — The havoc wrecked in both ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math in recent historycan actually be traced to a single cause - the obsession with diksainitiation as the only means of perpetuating the disciplic succession.This presumption is an asiddhantic conception that is inspired by themost hallowed of materialistic Western institutions - the corporation. Thegoal of a corporation is to wield financial and collective powerthrough a centralized top-down structure of authority. Thisre-architecting of ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada’s Samadhi has been lednot surprisingly by vaishyas like Gopal Bhatta dasa, who left ISKCON tomake his fortune in the world, along with Braja Bihari, Sesa,Badrinarayana and Pragosh. GopalBhatta dasa has been tasked with driving what has been euphemisticallycalled the Strategic Planning Committee. It is not difficult to see howthe principle of diksa would be perverted to serve such anorganization. The GBC become the board of directors; the gurus, theCEO’s; the Temple Presidents, the middle managers; and everybody else,mere employees. The Diksa Guru initiates the applicant into permanentmembership as a formal employee of Krsna, Inc. Thisdescription is not hyperbole. The fit is too perfect. And what otherreasons would there be for Brahmins and Ksatriyas to take advice fromVaishyas in how to govern their affairs? Diksagurus can proliferate as easily as CEO’s because they are subject tothe corporate authority and their posts created and filled by thatcorporation. Ofcourse, from the point of view of Vaisnava tradition, the subjugationof a guru to such a collective is sheer nonsense. Also the idea thatthere must be formal diksa disciples to continue the succession isincorrect. From Srila Prabhupada: "BhaktisiddhantaSarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all hisdisciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activitiesco-operatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the nextacarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries madeplans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya , and they split in two factions over who the next acarya would be. Consequently, both factions were asara ,or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the orderof the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master's order to form agoverning body and execute the missionary activities of the GaudiyaMatha, the two un-authorised factions began litigation that is stillgoing on after forty years with no decision." Caitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila 12.8 Purport From Rocana dasa prabhu: "TheSampradaya Acaryas have made their positions on this subject abundantlyclear, but surprisingly, so many devotees have chosen to ignore theirmessage. Initiation into our Sampradaya isn’t solely dependent upon taking diksa initiation. " Theinsistence on diksa over siksa is the best evidence of the degradationof the spiritual movement that was once ISKCON into a mundane materialreligious institution. As HDG Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja had predicted: "Theidea of an organized church, in an intelligible form, indeed marks theclose of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiasticalestablishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current thatcannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate adesire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement fortheir own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of theabsolute and unconventional guidance of the bona fide spiritualteacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems; theyhave no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neithercan there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation ofthe life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale."

me too. This thread has long outlived it's intended lifespan anyway. It's usually the case that if a thread makes it intact to the second page then that is rare. make one's point on the first page and then let it go seems to work best.

I knew since 77 along with many others. It appears andy is only just now figuring it out. Most be a youngster.

Andy, It must be hard being the only sincere seeker around. I feel for you bro.

Who suggested anything about imagining? You make light of what I said because you don't understand it. If you were so serious about this desire Krishna would have or will soon arrange it. Perhaps you like being alone and feeling a little disgruntled, a feeling not unknown to myself. You want to go behind playing mind games with others and that is good. But first we have to stop the mind games we play with ourselves.

Tongue fur! LOL that is hilarious. That coating means you have ama in your stomach. You are taking in something that is not digesting completly. The tongue reflects the stomach. Get a tongue scrapper and scrap your tongue and you will see it's not fur but is instead a mucus secretion. You can scrap your tongue till the natural reddish color returns in a few minutes. But if you don't also clean the stomach it will be back.

You want to start a program based around Srila Prabhupada. No problem. Just act constantly in some capacity and Krishna will arrange it. Have faith and Krishna will bring the increase. I heard a story that is very illustrative in this way. True or not the lesson is there. One very advanced individual who decided to work separately from Iskcon while maintaining his connection with Srila Prabhupada just left Iskcon Hawaii one day and went to another island. Once there he collected a coconut, opened it and offered it to Krishna and then distribted it to others as prasadam. Krishna has blessed him greatly with expanded service oppurtunities. Not to mention the voyage of the Jaladhuta.

That's good. Saints should be respected. Especially true of the above mentioned.

Not exactly true. It was the Republicans who instituted the ban in the first place. So Mahaks jab at the Republicans just shows his political bias. You will never see him give Bush credit for nominating two staunch pro-life judges to the Supreme Court. Now I have no love for the R party but the truth is the truth. The fact that overturning the ban was the first thing Obama did in office says volumns.