theist

Yes this is a good tilak for me. :D:D

It takes two things. A perfect program and the will on the student to follow it. My will to follow was very very weak. I only lasted about six months in the temple.

Gardens and deserts both.

Process is your argument? An unborn one minute prior to coming forth from the womb is in the process. A child is the process of becoming a man and that man is in the process of death. Where EXACTLY do you draw the line. And if you can't answer with a scientific certainty than you have no basis for killing the child in the womb. We will take one point at a time if you don't mind.

What makes you think the fetus developing in the womb of a human is not human? This is a very important point. And how can you say there is no self there when all logic and science say that there is. These are two points we need to discuss.

LOL no offense Kulapavanna, but I am sure by 'books' andy had the seriously reading (hearing) and following of those books in mind and not just being tricked into buying one on the street.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you. Anyway there are a lot of devotees out there using the internet to inject krishna conscious ideas into the mass mind.

A game of musical chairs where the same croonies run around in circles and end up in different chairs. Then they call that Change.

The way I see sadhu sanga is basically as Andy describes it. Even when in the early seventies and I was associating with neophytes daily I considered myself to be associating with Prabhupada under the aid of their association. Does that make sense the way I stated it? Because Prabhupada and Krishna was somehow always kept in the center even though by a group of beginners I felt blessed and rightly situated. More than that I felt spiritually safe. It was a simpler time. After Prabhupada left (even somewhat before) Iskcon gave up the center (SP) and at that point I could not find sadhu sanga there despite the fact that many devotees were seemingly now more advanced and sophisticated. What would have worked for me was an association of Prabhupada disciples who understood the value of vani and carried on just like Srila Prabhupada was still present, which he was. Instead what popped up was the ritvik phenomenon and their obsession with hating the twilight zone 11 and the GBC, correcting and reclaiming Iskcon etc. and in doing so took their eyes off the heart of the matter. Unfortunate people like me who were too weak to stand on their own quickly fell into a state of disorientation much the riven cloud Arjuna asked Krishna about. Ah but who is to blame for my plight? None other than I myself for trying to keep one foot in maya while trying to plant the other in transcendence. This can also be called being stuck in the land of theory. Which brings us too my present dilemna. Not the first time I have been here with this one. At some point I have to pick up the other foot and take the next step which is internal change of heart.

I am 100% against the editing of books, especially sacred texts to fit in with the times and political correctness. Just imagine what the Bible would look like once the homosex crowd had their way with it. Better to just ignore that which does not inspire us onward in spiritual life. For me this means ignoring the Koran as well as the Old Testament.

You are right to advocate for tolerance. However we got into our present circumstances is not so important. We are force to proceed from where we are. I was not in the least put off by paarsurrey. People have differing views to ours and an equal right to express them as we. Please don't take my attempted play on words above to seriously chandu, it wasn't meant that way. I often cause some minor trouble by trying to sound clever.

So the heart of it is Enlightened Self-interestat first. We then gradually come to be able to have other's trueSelf-interest in our relation to them as our Abhidehya leads toSambhanda, and this brings proper balance between the Head chakras andHeart chakra and our material dealings reflect more mode of goodnessduring the purifying process. We can then use our sentimentality topersuade others through our religious process. Yes because when someone speaks to us out of love we can perceive that that person is not trying to exploit us or dominate us. Even a stranger that is trying to pull us out of a house that is on fire conveys a genuine concern for our well being and it is palpable immediately. This is what I perceived from Srila Prabhupada. We had to ask ourselves, "what drives this elderly man to work so incredibly hard to spread Krishna consciousness," and the only answer is his intense love for Krishna and all others. Without enlightened self-interest our dealings with others are simplyrespectful business like manipulation at best, and fanatic controllingfacism at worst. Yes again. The main focus can become to build a dominant institution just for the sake of building the institution to a dominant position while identifying it as our extended self. Knowing and loving Krishna and others is the real goal and in our own enlightened self interest.(I like that phrase). That is my nickles worth at least. Worth much more than that.

Yes Kula that makes sense. And I am stuck on theoretical knowledge due to a heart blockage.

ouch! I could mention that our birth in any particular land is also due to our preferences and karma but I woldn't want to hurt your hair any further.

Yesthis is also where I wanted to go with this thread. The idea of intention. Who of us really knows why we do what we do? It's not an easy read.

I agree philosophy comes first but the heart must open at some point or as you pointed out one is not really hearing. Haribol and thanks for the encouragement.

We are all eternally indebted.

But is it so automatic? We have seen and perhaps experienced that the strictest adherents to the rituals of vaidhi bhakti even after decades haven't come to the platform you described. Somewhere in the midst of it all we have to come to want to cross that barrior of I me mine and actually want to love.

Yes this is the puryifying stage but what is the result of being purified? Do we not then become motivated to engage in life by love of God and others? At some point we have to surrender to this love. Allow ourselves to be cent per cent controlled by it. We must die to our lower motivations to live to our higher motivation. I am convinced that not only is fear of death an ever present dread in the back of everyone's mind but also the fear of love. In fact the fear of loving seems to me to be a force behind the fear of death (along with the fact we are eternal by nature).

Yes but worship of God must be further explained. For instance one can appear to be worshiping God by waving incense in front of a picture of Krishna. Is that worship of God? Or is worship of God the heartfelt offering of the incense characterized by the circling of the sticks before a picture of Krishna? IOW do I include love in what I do? Do I distribute Bhagavad-gita's and prasadam to people because I love them as fellow spiritsouls and desire their spiritual welfare or do I just do it in a perfunctury, dry sort of way? We should be relentless in our introspection. "Stalk the mind" as Castenada said. otherwise we may fall victim to thinking "I am a Vaisnava. I have been a Vaisnava for 30 years now, I now know so many books etc." We must bring the heart into it.

All of these types of questions are made clear by accepting the simultaneous oneness and difference taught by Lord Jesus and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. "I and the Father are one." and "The Father is greater than I." Both staements are true simultaneously and any apparent contradictions are illusions from our mundane minds. I especially like how Srila Prabhupada put it when describing the pure jiva in bhakti; "The Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead." Why should we who are trying to approach bhakti not bow down to the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead? It pleases the Lord to see His pure servants highly respected.

Well choosing the Koran over say the Bible or Bhagavad-gita is a personal preference just as my refusing to take the Koran seriously in my own spiritual path is my preference. I have no ill feeling towards paarsurrey for expressing his opinion but I just disagree. Afterall I also tell Christians they are not totally correct in worshiping Jesus as the Supreme Father.

Let's approach it this way. What is meant by the saying, ' religion without philosophy is just sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.' What does 'religion' mean in this context?

Whoa....the bard is among us.

Very very nice bija.