Sephiroth

you misunderstood what i was saying. i wasnt saying your theory couldnt happen, i was asking how it is that a people that lived only a couple thousand years ago could have found out about pre-cambrian events that happened millions of years before humans seperated from apes. Logical answer - They DIDN'T. Sages in the past didn't know the significant of the Purana (that it was describing an actual event later known as Cambrian Explosion by Scientists) and simply put it as Lord Vishnu came down and protected the Dewas from the Asuras. They didn't ask question on why Lord Vishnu didn't just order Indra earlier to go and get Shanjeevi Mantra, or Himself kill of Guru Sukracayra and end Asuras' advantage. Or why Lord Vishnu didn't give Amirtam to Indra and Dewas (within the period of a year when Guru Sukrachayra was doing his tapas). All this is logical if Lord Vishnu wanted to defeat the Asuras and protect the Dewas, but that was never His intention (according to my logic). I believe He wanted to do as what described in Cambrian Explosion as something which benefict ALL lifeforms for millions of years to come and to Humans now as well. And He made use of both Dewas and Asuras to do so. Sages in the past couldn't have understood this unless Lord Vishnu (or Lord Brahma or Lord Shiva - since both in charge of Life and Death and knows what going to happen) told Humans about it. They didn't and the Sages have no access to today's Science like Carbon-dating to understand what has happened. My main point is that if humans were not around to have experienced such things, then how could they know of it, much less spread the message around of this events' existance with a story that got passed on for at least 2000 years. I find this a little hard to believe as it holds little similarities with the science that you propose the generation so deeply holds important. Why do you keep thinking that Humans are the ONLY lifeform which will beneficts from God's actions? Do you have limited knowledge that Humans are ONLY intelligence lifeforms in this World? And Kurma Purana is not simply 2,000 years old. It's older than that since it was passed down from one generation to another via oral. As for next generations holding this important, they will because for a long time, there's several question which remained : 1. What caused Cambrian Explosion? Till now, reason is unknown. 2. What cause Consciousness (a.k.a the Mind) to appear? Science begin to understand that Cambrian Explosion maybe the reason for this and calls it Quantum Consciousness. 3. Is there an Intelligence Design in creation of Life in the World or did Life just evolved from nothing and continued to today? I say, Cambrian Explosion IS the Intelligence Design which mapped Evolution for millions of years to come.

3)Both have a book as divine.Till death you guys wont leave that book.Muslims have quran and you guys hold on to Geetha.But advaitis will hold vedas and god as irrelevent in the advaita stage. I didn't know there was such idiots as Vaishnavites existed. Bhavagad Gita is for ALL, not for one or two groups to claim to be theirs while condemning others. Those who worship Lord Shiva also can read it, Westerners also can read it, Hell ... even Muslims and Christians also can read. They can follow it if they want, reject it if they don't want it. Accepting Gita don't save you from Rebirth and give Moksha on the spot and rejecting will not change your path to Karma and Rebirth or change of obtaining Moksha. Someone should teach this people the real value of Gita and not as some piece of game piece in "who's right and who's wrong" game.

"I for once feel He should reject the 1st two and just choose the last two" "I'm not His devotee, I'm just a slave " don't think you are completely contradicting in these two statements. No, where's the contradiction. One is my wish (that He could dump useful fools and choose only the most suitable souls who will work for Him - note, I too may be judge as worthless and I will accept). The 2nd one is my opinion about God and MY relationship with Him. Both case, it is MY belief and MY desire. So why it is contradiction? As a slave should not YOU accept what He Says and proceed? Following blindly is NOT the way of Hindusm. In all the Puranas, you will see plenty of example of Sages, Dewas and even normal Men speak their minds with others regarding what to do, so it will serve the best to others and not simply follow. If God wants a being that follows orders, He could have given Humanity to the Cows. /images/graemlins/wink.gif God has NO Master. ANYONE claims such is an IDIOT who do not know God. Mostly from what i see from "ModernLogicalarguments" is that people declare "I am a slave of God", "You become a Slave of Me" so in turn you will become a slave of God. That is another stupidity. By logic, can one Slave own and control another Slave YET he claims he is a Slave to his master? At same time, can one person who seeks God in turn teach other seekers about God, since he himself have yet found God? It is a case of blind leading the blind. That is why there is so much case of this Samiji or that priest raping this girl or that girl or emblezz this much money or that much money. I for once reject anyone who says he comes with authority from God and I will reject anyone who thinks I have authority to God to teach them. i think all this slave statements are nothing but a subtle way of pushing their beliefs over other people (or even over Him also), it would be better if we just say we are a devotee of God, love Him and also love all His creation and be happy. Define what is a Devotee.

So you conclude that King Ambarish, King Janaka (mentioned in Gita by name) are not His devotees since they didn't leave worldly possessions,right? Wrong ... there is three type of people who work for God. They are (using my own terms here) :- 1. Jnana Yogis - One who work using their own physical aspects toward God. Sun God and Yama Dharma is one of them. Warriors are include in this category. 2. Dharma Yogis - Ones who work using their mental capabilities - thinking and logic toward God. Brahmins, Teachers, Scientists etc who uses logic are in this category. 3. Karma Yogis - Ones who work due to been placed there by their Karmas. They accept it and do their work as Fate choose them. Path of Bhakti (Bhakti Yoga) is same to all Hindus but how they work is different according to one another due to their own individual capabilities and attitude. THAT (at least to me) essence of Bhavagad Gita. A king who works for his people (and not his own self, family and friends) is a Jnana Yogis - one who approach God by his own physical capabilities. i think this is the alien concept of brainwashing, since Bhagavan himself accepts them as their Devotees, He says his Devotees are of four types- "1. One who prays for more wordly pleasures, 2. One who is satisfied with the current worldly pleasures but prays that it should not reduce, 3. one who is not at all interested in worldly pleasure but prays for His knowledge and finally 4. the Wise man" The 1st is a fool who worship God only for beneficts He will give them. If God gives him problems, he will leave God and even curse Him. Ignorant ones and Atheists are such people. 2nd one are semi-fools, wanting to balance worldly possession and heavenly gains. I can only think of Muslims here. Most Hindus and laymen Buddhists are also fall into this category. /images/graemlins/wink.gif 3rd ones are Knowledge Seekers - hoping that knowledge will bring them close to God. Can't think of any particular people. 4th are Monks, priests and such who willing to give up Worldly possessions just to find the Truth. While God, in His infinite wisdom and Love accept all this, I for once feel He should reject the 1st two and just choose the last two. The world should be in peace if He did. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif What emotions comes easily depends on our beliefs, our social conditions, the education and many other conditions. Maybe ... maybe not. As far as I know, it present our dark nature and I for once will not fool myself in believing I'm a good person living in good world. I'm for once, am a Cruel Person with a mind that is sharp as a sword and lack of emotions like an Asuran. That is my nature and I accepted it. Like what Sri Krishna said : "Nature of Man is to fight, the question now is HOW to fight". By accepting the Dark Nature of a Person, he or she will accept his or her own actions in a new light and take steps to control him or herself. Otherwise, the person will just fool him or herself into believing he/she has a perfect control over his/her actions.

1) Todays most of the "Logical" discussions can be summarized in one statement- "Whatever I say, I do and I believe is true, since MY Belief says so and Whatever you Say, you do and you Believe is wrong, since MY Belief says so"- even though i think our Bhagavan will not allow us to fall down to such levels, still would like to confirm. Unfortunately, Humans are not beings which always follow what the Bhagavan wants us to follow. And you are right, He doesn't want us to fall into such levels, but we do ... why? Because the Sea of Suffering and Ignorance is always there and always calls us. We always take for granted the solid land masses which our feet stands upon and choose to jump into the Sea, only to drown and complain that there is no God. /images/graemlins/wink.gif 2) i don't what to hurt the feelings of His devotees, even inadverently, since He states (in Ambarish story), that He does not mind anybody troubling Him but would never tolerate troubling His Devotees. You talking about my feeling? Hmph ... I'm not His devotee, I'm just a slave who trying to do something useful. Devotees in my opinion are ones who leave worldly possessions and choose to live for His sake alone. Before proceeding further, let us make clear one issue-, i think that happiness is the intrinsic nature of human and suffering and misery are superimposed on him due to wrong beliefs and wrong actions, while you state that misery is the intrinsic nature of human and happiness can be obtained only by certain actions, and there is only misery and suffering in this world. Do you know HOW I come to conclusion that the World is in state of misery and suffering? No, I didn't listen to some monks or priests who brainwashed me, I perform some experiments on myself (and a few others) and comes out the logical explaination. Here's some experiements you can do yourself : 1. Examine yourself and find which of the following emotions is easier to appear to surface and which is harder to bring to surface : 1. Anger Or Calmness. 2. Peace Or Worries. 3. Jealous OR Happiness for others. 4. Delight in Otherss Suffering OR Sense of Sadness for Others' Suffering. 2. Pick a good day and fast (no water and food, or maybe just no food if you cannot take it) and see what emotions comes easily - follow the above list. here is a statement in Gita, which states,"For them even this world will not be happy, and then How the next world will be happy" i interpert that as only if this world is happy for some body then the next world will be happy and that is the reason i say that there is happiness every where, if there is no happiness, i can't figure out why Bhagavan tells the above statement. would like to know your counter logic before going further When He spoke of the statement, He spoke about people who are ignorant, suffering in the World and unhappy about the conditions of their own existence. Remember the two couples which dug a large hole before? Do you think they will be happy if given Heaven? Sure ... they will be happy for a day or two, but when one remembers the others' existence and unhappiness the others had cause, both will be miserable. For example, assume you hit me, I hit you back and we spent eternity hitting each other across the face. Both died and end up in Heaven. In Heaven, when I see your face, I will be angry at you because of what you did and you will be angry at what I did. The fight which started on Earth will resume in Heaven, Hell and back on Earth again.

1. Every heard of something called Fossil Records? I based my facts that the Life in the Ancient Oceans prior to Cambrian Explosions were empty due to the fact of Scientists and Experts finding evidence (in form of rock sampling which shows Fossils etc) that mass existence had occured. In Kurma Avatar Purana, it is stated that Dewas were almost lost the war due to Guru Sukrachayra's use of Shanjeevi mantra to revive the Asura warriors, giving advantage over the Dewas. Also, in many Asian cultures such as Hindusm and Buddhism, it stated that, if good or evil took over the Heavens, the effect could be seen on the World itself. Annihilation of Life (which probably too fragile to withstand the changes in the Weather and such, due to war) is directly due to the War in between Asuras and Dewas. 2. I'm NOT a Sage. I took facts from Science and link it with Theology and come out with most possible outcome for both. Science already mapped out how the Universe began, how the World formed, how old is the Life itself, Pre-Cambrian and Cambrian explosion and what followed from there. All this are Scientific facts and you don't need to be a Sage to link it with Theology. 3. I'm NOT going to argue who's explaination on Kurma Avatar is better. But, 20 years from now when your children, exposed to Concepts such as Planet's history and Evolution comes to you and ask about Kurma Avatar and the best answer you could give is that God wasted His existence holding up a volcanoe, I couldn't help to wonder what will happen to your childrens' faith. Im not saying urs cant happen, im just saying, i think mine makes more sense in the realm of human understanding. It makes sense to you if you do not have adequate Scientific knowledge or ask question following Scientific knowledge. Or maybe, to a simple person, simple explaination is adequate (this is not meant as an insult, Sorry if it felt that way). However, I for once will not make the same mistake made by Christians and Muslims alike, of having knowledge but not researching it properly with field of Science and end up, in the future, asked by the next generation and cannot answer then. Better teach the children now about Science and that God had performed His actions in the World we know and not simply describe God as some lazy bum who sits in Heaven and do nothing (like what Christians and Muslims describe their God to be). Ahem ... no offence to either Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva.

Here's a few facts : 1. Hindusm has NO prophets. They have Sages but no one them proclaim themselves Gods. This Sages were humans also and they make a lot of mistakes. 2. Jesus DIDN'T laid down his life. He was persecuted and executed by Jews for being an idiot. /images/graemlins/wink.gif 3. I don't see anyone calling Shiva Satan.

The intepreation was intellingent enough! liked it Thank You. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is entirely a knew idea to me no where i had read "man wishes to experience state of ignorance" i had read only "man wishes to experience happiness", may be you can explain more on this. What is ignorance and what is happiness? Ever thought about that? When you think something is happiness and force others to "make" you happy, that is an example of a person who want to exprience state of ignorance. Only difference is, such person ignorant enough to call such emotional attachments and actions of experiencing happiness, because to the Self, it is happy. Example is today's youth who are in love. A young woman will dream of marriage, family and what she believes as happiness. A young man, driven by his own desires will dream of sexual pleasures from her. The thought of marriage and family is something he will not think or maybe put aside for later. Driven by his urge and sensors, he will try to force the young woman to accept his advancement. The young lady, thinking this is a small price to pay to get her happiness will allow it. "Accidents" happen and next thing you know - both of them are parents, forced into marriage and now living as a couple. Either are happy, because the mindset of the young man were never ready for marriage and what the young woman expected from him is not fullfilled. Furthermore, they have a new responsiblity now in form of a child. So, in brief moment of wanting to experience ignorance which the man thought as "happiness" and the woman thought as "sacrifice for happiness", both managed to dig a large hole, jump in and bury themselves in emotional attachments. To make things worse, they have a new life (their child) which will get caught in the middle of this two unhappy individuals. Your Point 2) is good but basically you are making a distinction there is a "state of Moksha" and there is a "Place of Moksha(Vaikunta, Vrindavan,Kailash..)", and people who had reached Place of Moksha are not necessarily in State of Moksha (i.e., they may be still be subjected to birth and death under some conditions). Most common mistake Hindus makes is thinking when they reach Moksha, they going to sprout wings and fly to Vaikuntha. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Take Sage Narada for example. He started as a Gandha (angel-like being) who curse to be born as human, and when he reached state of Moksha, he reborn in state of bliss to Lord Brahma and runs around mumbling "Narayana". He still walks around in the Universe like other Dewas do and still feel emotions, only this time, he has no attachments to it. So, logically speaking, a person who reach Moksha is someone who still exists in a physical plain but has no attachment to it like normal people do. And since God is everywhere (including in yourself), then this world is your "Vaikuntha" till you release from your physical state and go back to Him ... or till you fall from Grace, whichever comes first. say, if suppose, Lord Krishna comes before you and start playing Flute and dance, what you will do? Close your eyes and ears and say We are not interested in Sensual Pleasures!!! if not then why not enjoy sensual pleasure created by human, who is nothing but a microsom of the God (the Macrosom)-[it is a yogic philosphy that "Whatever is in Universe is also in Human Body" albeit in different scale] If you think Sri Krishna's music is sensual pleasures, whose fault is that? Sri Krishna's yours? His music is in the winds ... the sound of the sea, wind blowing in open field, beautiful sky and white clouds passing by, and even in violent storms that mimic Lord Shiva's dance of destruction. If you cannot hear that, then you are deaf. Bhagvan states in Gita that there are three types of action:- (good) action, (bad) Prohibited action and inaction (or actionless). So while actionless state is the ideal, we should realize that good action is the practical and prevent people from entering prohibited action and bring suffering to themselves and others. Bhavagad Gita also state it is impossible for a person to remain actionless, but better to do action as offering for Him (devoiding attachment and emotions) than to do actions with state of ignorance and seeking fruits of attachment. Regarding your Bus example, not all Bus joureny will end with an accident, we can also have Bus journey where we pass through beautiful scenery, good companions, happy journey and safely reach the home (in fact may be 99 out of 100 journeys would be like it), so should i avoid those journeys just for the fear of one accident? No, you shouldn't avoid such beautiful scenery ... but you cannot attach yourself to one and delay your journey either, could you? Attaching to emotions, family, love and such is like stopping at every beautiful sight and admiring it for hours. In the end, your destination is delayed and you may change another bus. "it is animalistic urge to devour each other. You eat others or be eaten. " - i say this is the alien concept (here it is Darwanian concept) , there is a story about one Randidevan in srimad Bhagavatam, where his whole family goes without food for six days, on the seventh day when they get a small amount of food to eat , a beggar comes to them and they happily give away a portion of it to him. Do you think this is the animal behaviour, have you ever seen or heard animals doing this? Could you give away your food to others when you are starving? I bet you will not. Why ... because true nature of Man is eat or be eaten. You also forgot to mention about the mongoose who came, roll on the ground and turned half of his body to gold and searching for similar place where an entire family gave selfishless sacrifice to others. since because you believe that the humans have natural anmialistic urge you work hard to make humans as animal and bring misery upon them. This is stupidity as it's best. By accepting my dark nature, I use God's given tools (my faith, my mind and my soul) to control my sensors and bring my soul back to Him. You on the other hand seems to think just because humans are dark in nature, they should allow to continue to exist in state of ignorance. Remember that we are now living in a golden age (as per Chaityna Mahaprabu the first 10,000 years of Kali is a golden age), because in Kali just telling Bhagvans name you can attain whatever you desire and for the first 10,000 years of Kali you will also have this knowledge, after 10,000 years you may be able to still achieve whatever you want by chanting His name until end of Kali, but this knowlege would have disappered. Wrong ... this is kali yuga - the Dark Age. Mumbling His name out loud when your heart has no faith is like rattling an empty can. Speak His name and Work for Him without attachment.

I am not telling that we should not strive for self-realization or God realization. Oh Yes you are. Goal of Man is to strive to reach God. All others such as good morale, good conducts etc will appear on its own as byproduct for that main action. IF you want to become a good person, you MUST have Spiritual strive toward God. You cannot say "I can become a good person without trying to reach God" because Laws of Nature states that you're (like like all other humans) are just animals born from nature and therefore will have the dark nature of Animals. Now the question comes- why did he leave the eternal abode of Lord Vishnu? 1) You can't state that he left it due to ignorance or bad karma or arrogance, etc., since if one is in eternal abode of Lord Vishnu, then he is pure, highly intelligent. wrong ... Man jumps into the Sea is because he is ignorant and because he wishes to experience state of ignorance. 2) The other reply is that God sent him "Down" which comes back to the same old question, why did God send "Down" selective people? (please don't answer karma here, since the moment one reaches Vaikunta all his Karma should have been wiped out) You don't know much about Hindusm, do you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Ever heard of the story of Jaya and Vijaya and how they fall from Lord Vishnu's grace? Ever heard of story of Sage Narada, in a moment of ignorance, anger and pride (for winning against Kama Dewa), went and cursed Lord Vishnu to suffer the same suffering as he felt when he lost his loved one? WHO said that once a person reached Vaikunta, his Karma will be wiped out and he will not sin again? State of Moksha is simply a state where you do not reborn in continous circle of life and death. When you reach Him, it is your duty to serve Him properly without any emotional attachment, Ego, pride etc. -This also means that Soul doesn't take part in the so-called misery of the senses since it is different from the material senses. Imagine you are in the buss, drove by a driver (who's perfectly stranger to you). The buss involves in an accident in an accident and you end up in hospital. After the period in hospital, you go out and jump into another buss and continue the journey. In above example, the soul is the passenger, body is the buss and the driver is the sensers. If you do not know your own sensors (and take actions to control them), accidents going to happen and you going to end up in hospital - which brings suffering, pain and hospital bills. Here's you enjoy nothing, you get delayed and you end up in hospital. Time is wasted and the journey starts fresh. Even worse, if you are taken to a hospital which is far away from the place you wish to go and have to start the journey anew. Exactly that is what I was saying people are creating suffering and misery in this world by their actions and they are creating their actions by their belief that this world is full of sorrow and misery (an alien belief) But it is full of misery and suffering. What the true nature of the World? Love and Kindness? Hell no ... it is animalistic urge to devour each other. You eat others or be eaten. Hindus in the past lived a proper life NOT because they had correct belief, as you claimed. It is because they know the true nature of the World and take as little as possible and give as much as they could. The beliefs they had then is same as what we have now, however, the mindset of Hindus now are NOT the same as those before due to ignorance from Non-Hindus and Atheists alike. To give an example we can consider a school with 1st to 10th standard. Our each birth can be considered as entry to one standard and the death as the exam, so after we finish the tenth standard, we pass out of this world and reach Vaikuntam. After end of each exam we can go the next class, remain in the same class, or even go down to the lower class depending on our performance. Wrong ... after one class, passing it ensure you go to the next class in the next semester. Failing it will ensure you stay where you are or dropped to another, lower class. You DO NOT go straight to Vaikuntha on one try. No one is THAT holy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif But if you say that a child at third standard is "suffering" and in "miserystruggling" to study, we should put him in tenth standard so that he can pass out , that is fully absurd. And more absurd would be no need to even study or appear in exam, just keep on praising the teacher/head master (God) and you will automatically pass-out. It could work if God is described in Abrahamic Religion where all you need is to praise their God and pray without doing good deeds, but that is not Hindusm's God, is it? Hindusm God do not eat praise of the people who wants to His Moksha. God make sure you work for what you want. No choice. That is the reason Bhagvan states in Gita, "Those who are self-realized should not unsettle the mind of insufficiently knowing fools, but rather make them perform their duty while duly performing ones own" This is from Jnana Yoga, is it not? You mistaken in translation. It said, those who knows the Truth should not confuse people who don't have the ability to understand the Truth yet (by speaking complex doctrines) but have them perform their appointed Actions properly" Why? Because by performing their actions and thinking on why they are performing it, this confused people will become to understand on the reason on their actions. This is reason why so many people get confused on what they need to do. Instead of living their lives properly and doing their respective duties (as stated in Jnana Yoga - as Sacrifice to Him), people go and find self-proclaim Gurus and Sages who, they themselves are confused, and get even more confused than before. if you say, by allowing others to remain ignorant, you will bring peace, you are sadly mistaken. Ignorance will never bring peace. i will finish with a story, Naradh Muni was said to be cursed by Brahma to be travelling non-stop in the universe, the reason- he motivated all the Prajapatis to indluge in Bhakti or Jana Yoga to realize God and not to take part in the wordly activities. You can't even narrate a story properly. /images/graemlins/wink.gif It is not Lord Brahma who curse Narada but a Sage, after Narada went and influence his two sons not to marry and seek Lord Vishnu's guidance.

In Bhavagad Gita, Sri Krishna said He will come as Kalki, NOT Buddha. Buddha is just an enlightened Soul who choose to become a Teacher to Man, he is not a God or an Avatar. As for teaching of Buddha to be similar to teaching of (Vishnu?) Gita, that is true, except Buddha removed the complex and unnecessary rituals and practises because it will not lead to Enlightenment. Brahmins at time of Buddha were arrogant about their own status and Buddha came to kick them back down from their high place - same thing is I may add as Sri Krishna did when dealing with Caste problem during His time. Lord Vishnu will come as Final Avatar - Kalki, not Buddha. if you wish to respect Buddhism, respect them as someone who follows Vishnu's Laws in different fashion, as I respect them.

Basically, it is asking what is the Mind? How is it born? When is it born? In Hindusm (and Buddhism), the Mind born from the Five Sensors, and several other organs (I believe it stated so in the Gita). Since the body developed the Mind, therefore, the Mind actually False. In Scientific point of View, Consciousness refers to when organisma begin to take the "first steps" on their own to challenge and evolve, especially in challenging state of the World. I believe that happened during Cambrian Explosion. Evidence is presented by existence of lifeforms which developed new functions and features. If that is true, the period in time, two "consciousness" existed - a Predator Consciousness and Prey Consciousness. Predator feed on the other to survive and the Prey feed on the world. Predator chase and Prey run. The running took the prey out of the water, evolved lungs, sweat glands and other organs and a new dietery systems. The predator come right behind it with similar features as well. Reading materials : http://www.thymos.com/science/qc.html http://home.earthlink.net/~dolascetta/MetaFrameSet.html http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/pq/pq1.htm Note : Some may ask ... what so important about all this? Simple answer is - some people (who do not believe in God especially) asked one simple question - "If there is an Intelligent Design (meaning an intelligent being - God, design the World as we know it) for the world today, When did it start and Where?" This thread about Quantum Consciousness is to answer that question, that the Design in the World as we know today begins at Cambrian Explosion (as most Scientists will agree) and it is explained accordingly in Kurma Purana.

Further Self-Studies : http://www.quantumconsciousness. ... eroff/cambrian.html - Quantum Consciousness. [Qoute] For it's first 3.5 billion years or so ("pre-Cambrian period") life seems to have evolved slowly, producing only single cells and a few simple multicellular organisms. The most significant life forms for the first 2 billion years of this period were algae and bacteria-like prokaryotes. Then, about 1.5 billion years ago, eukaryotic cells appeared apparently as symbiotic mergers of previously independent organelles (mitochondria, plastids) with prokaryotic cells. According to biologist Lynn Margulis (Margulis, 1975; Margulis and Sagan, 1995) microtubules and the dynamically functional cytoskeleton were also outside additions, originating as independent motile spirochetes which invaded prokaryotes and formed a mutually favorable symbiosis. Prokaryotic cells provided a stable, nourishing environment and biochemical energy to the spirochetes who reciprocated by cytoskeletal-based locomotion, sensation, mitosis and differentiation. Pre-Cambrian eukaryotic cells continued to slowly evolve for another billion or so years, resulting only in simple multicellular organisms. Then, in a rather brief 10 million years beginning about 540 million years ago (the beginning of the "Cambrian period"), there apparently occurred a world-wide dramatic acceleration in the rate of evolution: the "Cambrian explosion." A vast array of diversified life abruptly emerged: all the phyla from which today's animals are descended (e.g. Gould, 1989). Can a particular biological functionality be identified that critically enhanced adaptation, survivability and mutation? Did purposeful, intelligent behavior accelerate evolution? The idea that behavior can directly alter genetic code formed the basis of an eighteenth century evolutionary theory by Jean-Baptiste Lamarck. No supportive evidence was found to show that behavior directly modified genetics, and "Lamarckism" was appropriately discredited. The question of whether behavior can alter the course of evolution indirectly was discussed by Schrödinger (1958) who offered several examples (Scott, 1996). A species facing predators and harsh environment might best survive by producing a large number of offspring for cooperative support. Such a rapidly reproducing species is ripe for accelerated evolutionary development (Margulis and Sagan 1995). Another example is a species which finds a new habitat (moving onto land, climbing trees. . .) to which adaptation is facilitated by supporting mutations. Changes in behavior can also favor chance mutations which reinforce original changes, resulting in closed causal loops or positive feedback in evolutionary development (Scott, 1996). Generally, intelligent behavior can enhance a species' survivability and the opportunity for mutation by avoiding extinction. Other Reading materials : http://pr.caltech.edu/media/lead/072497JLK.html http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslab ... dria/mitorigin.html http://hoopermuseum.earthsci.carleton.ca/camex/1ahome.html http://www.cascadia.ctc.edu/facu ... brian_Explosion.htm http://serc.carleton.edu/introgeo/earthhistory/cryptozo.html

Pre-Cambrian Explosion Era According to history, the early microboes which lived in the sea before Cambrian Explosion Era (some 500 Million years ago), were facing massive extinction due to some factors like increase of Oxygen, increase in temperature etc. There was a large gap in the sea due to extinction in massive levels. This occurance similar to the facts that Dewas was in brink of losing before Lord Vishnu decided to do something about it. And, unlike Abrahamic Religion which speaks nothing of Heaven's actions, many Non-Abrahamic Religions (such as Hindusm and Taoism) contribute trumoil in heaven (and in some instance, hell itself) to conditions which occurred on the Planet itself. So, by stating the Dewas were in brink of destruction (due to Shanjeevi Mantra) and that the Asuras will take over the three worlds - Heaven, Hell (the Pit) and Earth due to their actions, it doesn't fall far from the fact that before Cambrian Explosion, the world were about to become barren of life due to massive extinction of early lifeforms (due to changes in the atmosphere and conditions on the world itself). Cambrian Explosion Cambrian Explosion is one of the most important events in History of the Planet. It was the reasons why creatures we see today could exist, including Mankind. Evolutionist (those who support Evolution) however have problem with trying to measure why Cambrian Explosion occured (ONCE) in the first place. If the event such as it occurred several times, then Scientists could study the environment and conditions which enable the Explosion to occur. Unfortunately, no other "Explosion" occurred after that one and Scientists have hard time trying to cook a right formula to mimic the Explosion the second time. From what they know, it seems that the Earth went into what known as a True Polar Wander. In this occurrance, "something" made the world turn 45 degrees (slowly) to the point that north pole was in where today's Bahamas, Africa and Malaysia is located (and the nearest point toward the sun). Also, something promoted growth of algae devouring microoganisms which started to pray upon Blue-Green Algae (which was dying due to Oxygen polution which created by its own self, much like Humans nowadays are "dying" due to Carbon Dioxide pollutions created by their own lungs. In due course of time (a SHORT 40 million years), organisms with what known as Mitochondria had born and evolved, new beings with tougher shells (which needed in order to develop muscles later) appeared. New biological functions also occurred such as teeth, shells, ability to move and such. Scientists have been looking for that "Something" which made all this possible, without any luck. Linking Kurma Avatar to Cambrian Explosion Scientific background - sea almost empty due to mass extinction before pre-Cambrian Explosion. Hindusm background - Heaven in turmoil and the Dewas almost lost. By Science and Western point of View, both situations have nothing to do with each other. In religion point of view, however, it could said that it was the war between Dewas and Asuras which led to the world almost deterioting. Dewas need something to fight back and Lord Vishnu suggested of churning the Ocean to get Amiratham. You know how it goes, so no need to repeat it twice. Kurma Avatar is formed, used as a place to place the mountain and using Vasuki, Lord of the Snakes as rope, both Dewas and Asuras begin to churn the ocean. Out of the Ocean came other organisma like a white horse, Lord of the Mane and a White Elephant. Note that both are creatures with backbones. Also, Lord Vishnu's disc weapon (rounded object with saw-like edge which cutting ability). And finally Amiratham - elixir of Immortality. Now, Scientific Point of View - one could wonder where does all this leads? Elixir of Immortality? Any scientist will push it aside as a fantasy. But here's some fact : During and after Cambrian Explosion, creatures which appeared has upgraded functions such as hardened shells (for better protection), stronger backbones (to support the hardened shells), capability of gnawing into other lifeforms (especially Green-Blue Algae which was destroying itself by emiting Oxygen) and such. This could explain the existence of the Lord of the Mane and the White elephant (both are creatures with soft features but supported by backbones which support their massive features and gives them ability to move faster and develop muscles). Also, creation of round shelled crab-like organisma (shell-fish) like Triobite appeared during Cambrian Explosion. This new creatures had one features which no other creature before had - saw-like teeth (which could explain Lord Vishnu's Disc-like weapon with saw-like edge) which enable them to consume other lifeforms, including Blue-Green Algae. Finally, we come to the major question - What is Amiratham? Logically speaking, I believe Amiratham is actually a form of chemical compound which is similar, or maybe is same as Mitochondria which exists in all lifeform today. Mitochondria according to Scientists are a separate organisma (probably like Blue-Green Algae which went into an endosymbiotic with early organisma which later become descendant of every lifeforms on this Planet. Due to the long period of time (nearly 500 Million years since the Symbosis relationship occurred), the traces of the original organisma which later become Mitochondria in today's lifeforms had been lost, leaving only fragment of DNA which is separate from the Nucleous. What IF the Churning process was actually process of refining this micro-organisma into another component which later known as Amiratham - Elixir of Immortality? OK ... I can guess a lot of people will be laughing at this right about now, saying I have a wild imagination without any proof. Here's some arguements which I hope to provide as proof : 1. Mitochondria is energy powerhouse in all lifeforms including plants. It didn't come to play (actively) till Cambrian Explosion. After that, almost all new lifeform which emerged had traced of Mitochondria in it. IF I believe that Cambrian Explosion IS what known to Hindus as Churning of the Sea by Lord Vishnu, then Mitochondria could be one of the (OR the final product) which enabled Evolution to take place. Therefore, Mitochondria, or maybe the original version of this power-house is what the Dewas were after in form of Amiratham. 2. Evolution itself cannot possibly start without organisma evolving new functions and features, and it is already stated that Pre-Cambrian Sea were empty due to mass extinction. Therefore, "something" new must added into the Evolution in order to give Life an extra boost it requires to evolve new features, and that something was Mitochondria. 3. Also, today's scientists have been doing extensive research on Mitochondria and associate it with many things like diseases which with insufficient Energy development in the body.

Thank you for registering ... now I can get a mental lock on you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Your arguments are good, but we should understand that things are not as simple as they seem, as stated in Gita, "Things which appear like nectar at the beginning may end up as poision and things which appear like poison may end up as nectar" Which is poison and which is not depends not on the chemical components of the "poison/nectar" alone, it also depends on the individual who drank it. I know a Japanese lady who recently joined (my company deals with Japan and some other countries in Asia). She spent a month in a medical centre for Dengee fever. After she recovered, she asked us how many of us had dengee fever before and we (Malaysians) answered None. That is when I reliazed that the constant biting of mosqutioes in Malaysia actually made us immune to dengee unlike others from overseas did. So now my question is, why did God created the Sea if people would drown in that? or at least he could have created a shallow sea (similar to why He created an apple tree or he should have created it very tall that no man could reach it). You didn't read my statement proper, did you? The Sea is always there, and the sea is the World. If you ask why God created the Sea, it is equal to asking why God created the World if He knows Man is going to forget about Him and suffer in self-indulgement. You can argue that God shouldn't create the world because you are suffering in it. If you say such, I could say, "Go Shoot yourself in the head". WHY? Because Humans are NOT the ONLY lifeform on this world and the World NEVER belonged to them. The World belongs to all form of Life - from the Sea, Air, in the Ground and even inside your miseable body (in form of parasites). If you alone suffer in the World when others have taken steps to reach Him (swimming toward the Beach when they feel tired and worry they may drown), WHY couldn't you? Answer - you are ignorant and do not like to let go of materialistic enjoyment you receive from the World (the Sea). You forgot your own limitation by Nature and when you are too tired to hold on, you drown. God doesn't need to concern Himself to people who do not have Him in his mind or bothered to save your pathetic self if you do not want to be saved. Another thing ... I said God is the Beach, not something like a boat or a ship. Beach don't move, so you are the one who needs to take the first step toward the beach, not expect the Beach comes to you. Religion can be like the Boat or Ship which fish you out of the Sea, but you need to remember the characteristic of a Boat or a Ship. It too lies above water and influence by the waves. It too can sink into the Darkness if waves capcized it. In the end, a Boat/Ship is ONLY SAVE when it reached the Land and under the protection of the solid land masses. Same way, a religion can become your guide but ONLY religion which do not capsize you is the one which can bring you to God. As per Hinduism, The life in earth is not drowning or suffering (alien concept). It is a happy place to enjoy. Wrong ... from the moment Life born in this World millions of years ago to now, eternal Rule of the World is - Suffering. If you want to get ahead, you devour others to do so. And everyday, you do devour others by placing your interest in front of others. At night, you make love to your wife (without bothering whether she is tired or not) to satisfy your sexual urge. In the morning, you expect her to wake up and make breakfast for you. You rush to work, overlooking others' safety in the road, only with the goal of reaching the office in time in order to get a good name with your colleaques and boss. You work to get ahead in the office, sometimes, playing office politics and such to get ahead. You reach home and look at your children, expecting them to be equally "successful" in school as you think you are "successful" in the Office. If they do not, you threatened them by not giving love they need. You expect your wife to show you how much she loves you by cooking for you, massaging your back, even giving you bath, and finally, satisfying your sexual urges in bed. Life as you know it is just series of devouring of one another by pushing one person's needs ahead of the other. Tolerance and Human Love is just conditions and meeting conditions - one person demands and another gives. Only difference between you and a predator is, a predator like a lion and a tiger devour others openly, while you do so in a closed manner. So you see ... The World (as the Sea) is in state of Suffering, you just don't see it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif However there are still happier places (more happiness for more duration) and we should try to reach those places, but which neccessarily does not mean that we should not enjoy this place or we are suffering in this place, there is no suffering anywhere in the universe created by our MERICIFUL God. Anyone who says if God is merciful, He will not allow suffering, is a fool who do not know God. /images/graemlins/wink.gif There is a story in a Purana which states that a man who is highly indulging in sex would take his next birth as Pig. But he takes birth as Pig not as punishment, because the maximum sexual urge can be realised only by Pigs, not possible in human body. And hence he becomes a Pig, completes his urge and then proceeds upward on his spiritual evolution. A pig may move upward to become a man after he finishs enjoying his sexual urges, but WHAT prevents him (from state of Man) from falling back into becoming a Pig again should he chooses to indulge in Sex. If the circle is Pig ---> Man ---> Pig, then what is the purpose of his existence? He is not moving forward in Evolution, he is just running around chasing his own tail. /images/graemlins/wink.gif All this eternal Hell, suffering, misery, etc., are alien concepts, and currently deeply getting embedded in our psychology. Go and talk to people who survived the Holocaust and ask them whether they had been in Hell during World War 2. Also, go and talk to people in Cambodia and ask them about Communism government there and understand what hell is. Also, ask Chinese nowadays what they thinking about smoking and you will know what Ignorance is. You create Heaven and Hell by your own actions, it is not an alien concept. We should break all these mental shackles and realise that God is "Sat-chit-ananda" and we are also same with nothing to suffer and nothing to fear or worry. [This concept was not made very much open earlier-please refer my article Polytheism-Good or Bad? to get more insight why it was not made more open] What's a Sat-Chit-Ananda"? What you ask is for us to forget that we have responsiblity to each others and future generation. What you asking is for us to forget this responsibility and live in state of Ignorance like what they do in China now (where Smoking is considered God-Given Elixir of Life) and indulge fully into enjoyment of the World without bothering about its consequences.

Will you people pls register ... Ahem ... 1) First of all why did i drown in that sea? Why could anyone drown in the first place? Here's some answers : 1. Accidents like animal bite which lose your posture and make you drown, especially when you are a beginner in swiming. Happened to me. Can be avoid if you have a friend to help. 2. Overeating or tiredness. 3. lack of proper knowledge in swimming or didn't follow the instruction properly before going to dive. In all three statement, you will see that you drown mostly because of your own fault. So, logically speak, you drown because you are ignorant of the conditions of the actual world. Not knowing the true nature of the world and its attachments, you seeks to indulge yourself in it and in the end, fall too deep to be rescued by others. Fault is yours alone. Take a person who smokes and drinks alcholol. Tell him it is a bad habit and he will say "I can stop ANYTIME I want" but never do. WHY? Because to him, he do not care that smoking is bad for you and can cause cancer. IF tomorrow he do get cancer, whose fault is that? God? 2) If God is seeing me drowning in the Sea, but choose to help me only if called (or I tried to reach the Shore], then he can't be regarded very mericful, since even a Patrol guard, will rush to help me if i am drowning without the need for me to call him.[ This again goes back to your argument, that God only helps selective people] Why don't God help you if He sees you drowning? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Your question is similar to a Greek Philospher named Epicurus (ca. 341-270 B.C.E.). He wrote : Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -- Epicurus, quoted from a personal letter from [name withheld] to Cliff Walker, (July 9, 2001) Answer is so simple. Assume God, as an all-knowing being knows you are going to drown, what does He do? Logically speaking, He could asked you not to go to the sea and jump into the water - Logical, Yes? Question - Will you, who do not know whether you will drown or not, go to the sea? Question - If you do go to the sea, whose fault it is then? God or yours for drowning? Question - If you choose not to go, knowing the danger, then could you willing to put the urge of swimming out of your mind? Question - If you were warned, listen but still choose to go and drown, whose fault is it then that you drown? God or yours? Question - Even after drowning and been saved, will you go against to the sea, thinking you are wiser now that you know how powerful the wave is (but not how deep the darkness below is)? If all this is your fault to begin with, then answer this - should you be the one who approach God for precaution from not drowing in sea of indulgement and suffering and not expect God to come and save your sorry butt everytime? If all this is your fault from beginning, WHY must God be the one to come to YOU and save you everytimes? Even if He did (and many times, He does), it still will not change your evil ways of jumping right back into the sea like some kid who don't know anything better.

I for once do not believe a perfect world could exist in this world. In a perfect world, there is no worries, suffering, anxiety etc ... it just peaceful all the time. Therefore, when a person is in peace all the time, he or she will become static and do not learn new things - thus do not evolve. Take Dinosaurs for example ... they lived nearly 250 Million years but do you see any ancient civilizations which started by the Dinosaurs? Nope, because they were static - live for the day kind of concept. In order for Man to evolve, he needs to be in an imperfect world. The imperfection doesn't exist in physical world but in his own mind. Possessed with his own defination of "Perfection", man tries to change the world in his own image, thus causing ever changing phase which other are forced to follow or left behind. Example - Actions of Adolf Hitler which brought the world to war ... and the same war which shaped Science and Technology which exists today. God's world is always perfect ... Man's world is not.

Hmph ... are you a Muslim? "What is this Univerese and why it was created?" Answer - Read The Big Bang Theory. It has similar root to what is described in the Gita. IF God created man to be obedient to him then has He failed in his mission (at least partially) Wrong ... that is Muslim concept, that Man is created to be obedient to Him. In Hindusm (as far as I could understand), Man are created to live and find God on their own. There is no forcing for a person to believe in God when he has no reason to. And besides, Hindus believe in reincarnation and the Gita said, if a devotee choose to believe in Him and take one steps toward Him, He will take a thousand steps to reach the devotee. Which means, if you fail to reach God in this lifetime, He will make it easy for you in the next. In the end, it all up to you to believe and go to Him. No forcing. IF man has a free will and destiny and all his enjoyments and sufferings are determined by his actions alone (as stated in Gita), then what is the role of God? God gives free will for man to know God or ignore Him and continue to indulge himself with enjoyment and attachments. As you may know, ALL enjoyment and attachments leads to suffering and make the person (with free will) miseable. So, he has a choice to let go off his attachment and suffering by his own free will and choose God or continue to suffer in sea of attachment. You're drowning in the sea of attachment and suffering ... God is the beach. He will not come to you if you do not choose to go to Him. That choice IS your free will. IF as people suggest God helps his devotees only and only He makes some body as devotees by his powers, then He can be accussed on two counts- He favours only who praise him (like politicans) and he is partial that he does not make every body as his devotee. This nonsense is Muslim concept, NOT Hindus'. In Hindusm (and Buddhism for that matter), God is for all - believer and non-believers.

For few thousand rupees, hindus are getting converted into christians, how can you say that no power can stop...... Take the money and then convert back to Hindusm ... what so hard about that?

Allah cannot descend in the human form.....why? Because His Glorious Pride prevents Him from that.. I once asked this question in another forum I have visited. The question was - "IF Allah created All, why can't He create Himself a vessel and come down to meet the Mankind, like what Lord Vishnu (and now and then, Lord Shiva) had did?" Many of them (Muslims) kept quiet but thanks to you (Mr. Guest), I found out. Allah has pride which stops Him from meeting His own creations and guiding them. Does Lord Vishnu have pride? Lord Vishnu born as a Brahmin child, took bowl for begging realm and then when to Pali to beg for the Dewas. This alone shows that Lord Vishnu has no pride NOR do He accept anyone (of His creations) who has pride. Also, by stating Allah do not take any physical forms, you have contradicted yourself with Bible where it is said that God took human form and spoke to Joshua and even wrestle with him (Joshua). Are you going to say that it is a false statement from Christians and such event never happened? Also, by stating that your Allah cannot do something (because of His pride), you are saying that your Allah has limitations to Him. In my book, ANY being which has limitations is NOT a God. Lord Vishnu do not have limitations

Pls register ... Easy to please not necessary means we live a proper way. A lot of us do not know God or don't care, don't know religion or don't care and do not live a proper life or don't care. I for once be happy if Kali yugam passes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That's attitude I was referring to ... you just saw it in smaller scale and I did in bigger one. What if modern Hindus also hypocrites who want God to make sacrife and protect them while they do not bother to do so themselves? Do modern Hindus know about God? Study Vedas? Too hard? How about Bhavagad Gita alone? That is a simplified version. Do Modern Hindus know about Siddhars and the Sages? And maybe, it is too much to equalize Arjuna to modern day Hindus, it is just my opinion. And for your information, I only look highly toward Bhisma, Karna and Bheema (and Sri Krishna of course) in the whole Mahabratha Epic (not to mention Lord Vishnu's pervious incarnations).

please also tell what the hindus need to do, and how. nothing happens without united actions. Hmph ... solutions always in front of you but you never understand them. What you need to do (my suggestion) :- 1. Individuals - fill yourself with knowledge. Both Spiritual and modern (Science) knowledge. Hindus will not be useful to anyone if they themselves are outdated and do not have the proper knowledge. Teach your children about Sages and Siddhars - both Vishnu's and Shiva's. There is no better or worse Gods in Hindusm, just united One which work for benefit of others. 2. As members of Society - Talk with other members of society and do some gathering which promote spiritual activites. Not sure about India, but in Malaysia, almost all the temples (big or small in villages) will have lessons in martial arts and Trirukulam singing practises every sunday morning or friday evening. This will promote interest in young generations. 3. Societies - should avoid arguments about caste, should avoid politicians who talk about Caste, should respect the Brahmana and ask them to join you to teach the youngsters in the society. I believe they will help because it is God-given duty for them to teach. Also, beware of some societies who have ulter motives to ensure Hindusm to fail. They will come in sheep's clothing. Changes occures in one individual, then in one family and that will spread to the society. One society will influence other societies and soon, the societies, NOT the damned politicians who will shape the country. Like what Mahatma Gandhi did ... he started Ahimsa ALONE and by the time he passed away, almost all of India were behind him.

Have anyone noticed that the shape of the Vehicle is similar to the Lunar Module which landed on the Moon in 1969? :hmmm:

Arjuna worshipped Purushottama alright ... but his spirituality is weak. Many times, Arjuna had to call upon Sri Krishna to help things out, and many times, others have proven that their spirituality is stronger than his. In one account I remember is when Arjuna boosted he could bring Sri Krishna to come to them (Pandavas having luncheon) and proceeded to meditated upon Sri Krishna. Sri Krishna didn't come to the end. Bhima got up and said he will bring Sri Krishna here (after Arjuna failed). He didn't meditate or anything, he just sat down, flung his mace up and said "Krishna, if You don't come right this minute, I will be crush by my own mace." /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Sri Krishna did come and saved him. This shows that Bhima's spiritual strenght is so strong, he was willing to put his life in the line for Sri Krishna. THAT is STRENGHT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif In many way, Arjuna is what many Hindus are - unknowingly. They say they have faith but their faith is merely for their own usage.