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talasiga

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Posts posted by talasiga

  2. Posted · Report reply

    <u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

     

    Originally posted by talasiga:

    "The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

     

    Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

    Kishangarh Painting

    page 5

    Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

    Hague Building

    9 Sprott Road

    Ballard Estate

    Bombay 400 038

    Satyaraj: For certain those Sufi’s techniques aren’t from the fundamentalist Islam.

    Talasiga: Yes, religious fundamentalism is generally at odds with the mystic sensibility and my understanding is that <u>fundamentalist</u> Muslims are not much enamoured with Sufism.

     

    Satyaraj: These are Tantric techniques found in many Pañcaratras.

    Talasiga: You must be using "tantra" in a broad sense. No fault in this but it must be acknowledged that Tantra is therefore not the exclusive domain of the Pañcaratras (BTW, how do you do these diacritical marks/accents?)

    Lama Anagarika Govinda has discussed the differences between the Buddhist Tant[r]ism and the Hindu Tantrism. If I recall correctly, he proposes that the latter is a perversion of the earlier Buddhist Tantrism.

     

    Satyaraj: As obviously Tantra is oldest than Islam and Sufis, we should consider that in fact it was the Tantra who has influenced Islam and not otherwise.

    Talasiga: <u>Historically</u>, Tantra must be accepted as older than Islam and Sufism. Also, many regard Sufism as being older than Islam (although not under the name "Sufism" which is a relatively modern term). Some Zoroastrians (followers of the ancient pre-Islamic Persian religion of Ahura Mazda) claim Sufism is sourced in their ancient Aryan religion (I use "Aryan" here as a linguistic reference to mean a religion whose scriptural sources are in an Indo-European language - the Avesta is in ancient Persian which is a sister to Sanskrit).

    However an examination of <u>influences</u> can be made in different contexts and the PRECEDENCE of a particular influence may vary from context to context.

    I am happy to discuss this further if you wish to abseil with me ......

     

     

    edited to correct typo. error

     

    [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-30-2001).]

  3. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by JRdd:

    I wonder if it is that spiritually inclined people tend more to be artists.....................................

    Or I wonder if spirituality is more APPARENT in artistry than in other forms of expression. I mean, as we know someone can be totally spiritually focused while sweeping a floor, though this would be harder for others to see than if that person was painting a picture of Krsna.

    ..............

    Personally I have long felt and said that everyone is an artist, in some way or other. I guess then it gets down to deciding how we want to define art.

     

     

    I absolutely love it when you write like this.

    But fear not ! You won't find me a peering fan

    at your dawn doorstep.

     

    (You are certain to say something that will upset me soon Posted Image )

     

    Yes, I have not yet seen a greater painting

    than my weather worn village aunts sweeping

    the cowdung hearth in a thatched kitchen.

     

    ________

     

    Gauracandra,

    I thought this quote has a place in this thread:

     

     

    ".....Chaitanya aimed at the culture

    of the emotions, and thus arose a subtle classification of love,

    which could be cultivated in many ways......

    love is the supreme regulating principle of the universe.

    The universe is a poem, and the spiritual soul alone is privileged to read its deep poetry."

     

    Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

    Kishangarh Painting

    page 5

    Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

    Hague Building

    9 Sprott Road

    Ballard Estate

    Bombay 400 038

     

    (NB no ISBN appears in the edition that I have)

     

     

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    ------------------

    talasiga@hotmail.com

     

     

     

    [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-28-2001).]

  4. Posted · Report reply

    <u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

     

    Originally posted by talasiga:

    "The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

     

    Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

    Kishangarh Painting

    page 5

    Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

    Hague Building

    9 Sprott Road

    Ballard Estate

    Bombay 400 038

     

    (NB no ISBN appears in the edition that I have)

     

     

    Earlier statements from this same book:-

     

    "Another contribution which Islam made to the Hindu religious thought was through Sufism. In fact there are many common ideas in the systems of the Sufis, the Greek Neo-Pythagoreans and the Hindu Vedantists. The Sufis also believed in union with God through love. The first conspicuous exponent of Sufism was the woman saint, Rabia of Basra (ob. 801). The subsequent development of Sufism took place in Iran, a country with a population, Aryan by race, and artistic by nature."

     

     

     

    [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-26-2001).]

  5. Posted · Report reply

    <u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

     

    Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

    .

     

    "In the 16th century in Bengal, Chaitanya founded a sect of erotic mysticism, celebrating the union of Krishna and Radha in a Tantric theology heavily influenced by Tantric Buddhism."............

    Contributed by:

    Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty

     

     

    compare with:-

     

    "The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

     

    Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

    Kishangarh Painting

    page 5

    Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

    Hague Building

    9 Sprott Road

    Ballard Estate

    Bombay 400 038

     

    (NB no ISBN appears in the edition that I have)

     

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    ------------------

    talasiga@hotmail.com

  9. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by Dr.Jaya Sri Radhey by email 21 Nov 2001:

     

    Radhey, Radhey!

    Namaste.

     

    Here is one 'pada', Bengali song of a Rasik-Saint, Sri

    Candidasa, describing the Glory of Sri Radhika, through the

    words of Lord Krishna.

     

    " uTite kishorI, basite kishorI, kishorI galAra hAra kishorI

    bhajana, kishorI pUjana, kishorI caraNa sAra

     

    sayine svapane gamane kishorI bhojana kishorI Age kare kare

    bAMsI phiri divAnisi kishorIra anurAge

     

    kishorI caraNe parANa saMpechI bhAve te hrdaya bharA dekha he

    kishorI anugata jane karo na caraNa chAdA

     

    kishorIdAsa AmI pItavAsa ihAte saMdeha jAra? kotiyuga yadi

    AmAre bhajaye viphala bhjana tAra

     

    kahite kahite rasika nAgara titala nayana jale 'caMdidAsa' kahe

    navIna kishotI baMdhure karala kole

     

    uTite kishorI, basite kishorI kishorI galAra hAra kishorI

    bhajana, kishorI pUjana kishorI caraNa sAra"

     

    Sri Krishna is saying - "When I get up or sit down or lie down,

    for ever, I only see My Soul Radhika, the Youthful Beauty

    Personfied! She alone gracefully adorns My neck in the Form of

    jewelled necklaces as well as My Vanamala-garland.

    I constantly do worship to win Her Divine favors of Selfless

    love and serve Her with all My Divine pranks.

    Sri Radha-Kishori's lotus feet alone are My Essence.

     

    When I am awake, Her Fond Memories haunt Me, even in sleep I

    cannot stop remembering Her Love and in dreams also, I am

    enchanted by Her Blessed Vision.

     

    All day, while eating or drinking I feel only Her close

    presence in front of Me. Day and night wandering in the bowers

    of Vrindavan, I am yearning for Her Love, sometimes I am

    calling out Her Names on My Flute, and othertimes I am chanting

    the 'mantra' of Her Name longing for Her association.

     

    My heart is ever filled with Divine Love of Radhika and I

    totally surrender Myself to Her lotus feet. I expect the same

    from My loving devotees also, to follow only Her Divine Love

    ecstacies in serving Me and never to leave the worship of Her

    Blessed feet.

     

    O My devotees on the path of Divine Love (Prema Bhakti)! Never

    doubt the fact that I am always under the control of My

    Sweetheart, Sri Radha. Listen to Your Yellow-silken robed Lord,

    Me.

     

    Leaving the Lotus Feet of My Soul, Radhika, even if you worship

    Me for millions of ages, your devotion will bear no fruit.

    Always remember that My Power of Grace is Sri Radha Rani.

     

    While Lord Krishna is recounting the Glories of His Beloved

    Radha, His heart is overwhelmed with Divine Ecstasy and His

    lotus eyes are filled with tears of Love.

     

    The Rasik-Saint Candidasa concludes the pada saying that by the

    Power of HER Divine Grace, Sri Krishna is blessed with the

    Loving Embrace (Union) of His Soul Radha-Kishoriji.

     

    *********************************

     

    This beautiful 'pada' of the Rasik-Saint-Poet, Sri CHANDI DASA,

    was

    translated by Deben Bhattacharya.

     

    "Pouring perfumed water on Krishna's Feet,

     

    Radha CLEANSED and DRIED them with Her OWN thick Mass of Hair.

     

    She then LED Krishna to the DECORATED BEDSTEAD and

     

    proceeded to ANOINT Krishna's SKIN with COOLING sandalwood

    paste blended with the SCENTS of MUSK and Aguru.

     

    Radha continued to ADORN Krishna with LAYER upon LAYER of

    garlands of richly coloured, fragrant flowers.

     

    Once Radha's eyes REGISTERED Krishna's Beauty,

    She COULD NO LONGER RESIST.

     

    She GAZED and GAZED upon Krishna's Face.

     

    To Radha, Krishna's face appeared as SOOTHING and Beautiful as

    the FULL MOON.

     

    Like the MOON-BIRD 'chakora',

    Radha BEGAN to DRINK the Nectar of the Moon."

     

    ************

     

    Saint Candidas sings in this pada -

     

    "I am prisoner of Your Love,

    My Lord of Delight-

    My heart, wholly with You,

    can feel nothing else.

    Awake or in dream,

    lost in my thoughts,

    I behold Your Beautiful face

    and I etch it on the earth.

     

    Sitting with the elders,

    if I ever hear Your Name,

    My heart throbs with tenderness.

    My skin is pricked with needles of delight

    and the tears flow unbarred.

    I reach beyond my limbs.

    Day and night, My Love,

    I think only of YOU."

     

    ***********

     

    "My Love has gone to a distant land

    and here I am,

    a hapless creature,

    clinging to a wretched life.

    My heart endlessly dotes

    on recalling the feel of His touch.

     

    And someone else has enticed

    that Jewel away from me.....

    I shall compound a poison

    and lay it on my tongue....."

     

    ('Songs of Krishna'- Deben Bhattacharya)

     

    Why thanks to the phantom Doc !

    This is most relevant to this thread.

     

     

     

  11. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

    ...... the worship of Radha is not a Vaisnava conduct, as it is a sakta interpolation in seva, and no Vaisnava group would worship a sakti in the same manner as Hari Himself (There is not a second Hari).

     

     

     

    If there is no "second" Hari,

    how can one be accused of worshipping

    a "second" Hari ?

     

     

     

  13. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by gHari:

    They are the chosen people. The rest of us exist just for them to live off; part of the food chain; essentially non-entities.

     

    We rebel from our desperate lowly position, as eventually all second-class citizens do.

    What ?

    Low level sarcasm ?

     

    Now its the Jews. Uh oh - don't tell me:

    you got into a taxi while chanting and the driver was ...... ?

     

    See

    http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000799.html

     

    Hey friends !

    Catch a train - you can't see the driver.

     

     

  14. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by Gauracandra:

    quote:

    --

    At the heart of it

    they have a dominant matriarchy

    which is quite admirable .....

    --

     

     

     

    Dear Gauracandra,

     

    When you quote me, please don't delete my name.

    Aren't things impersonal enough already ?

     

    As you must be aware, when you use the quote facility

    the quoted person's name presents automatically

    so why go to the extra trouble to delete it ?

     

    Thanking You in anticipation.

     

    Talasiga

  18. Posted · Report reply

    Originally posted by suryaz:

    What makes you believe "relevant inquiry" is "better" when a "submissive" component is present?

     

    What is wrong with impartial, reasonable, unbiased and/or objective relevant inquiry?

     

    Why promote as “better” a behaviour that when promoted functions to, and/or leaves room for the dis-empowerment of another.

     

     

    This is very well put Suryaz.

     

    However one may note that some SUBMIT

    to invite greater powers .....

     

     

  19. Posted · Report reply

    Bhaktavasya: [T]he therapist within can agree to be tied in empathy to the left and understanding to the right, while reserving the right to be free from bondage to either side of the political body.

    Talasiga: This is agreeable except that I think the word "political" is misplaced.

     

    Bhaktavasya: What were YOU talking about when introducing the idea of mutually bound/tied up wrists?

    Talasiga:I don't recall either raising wrists or tying two <u>together</u>.

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