talasiga

PRAYER 10 Hail Opal of Opposites ! You have nothing you must do Yet you choose action night and day There is so much for us to do Please take our laziness away ! ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com

Melting Heart Even the hardest coldest heart may be the seat of Grace Just see how Radha does satiate as She breaks our ice apart ! ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com

Hey Avinash ! See I'm back ..... (for the time being ?) Well now Your question at hand Let me see. Hmmm - You know, I think, <u><font color=blue>CR</font><font color=green>EDIBLE</font></u> is something a CRocodile can eat. Now if the crocodile eats it all, what will be left as evidence ? Such is credible evidence [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 01-07-2002).]

<font color=red>MESSAGE 7:-</font> Please send me Messages fresh with your pain ! If you send me lustre If you send me gold I must share them out to all told. Please send me that message I may keep only for me - The more I hoard it, the greater your gain. [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 01-06-2002).]

Frozen Heart I see a moonlit Radha Under a lonely maple tree The snow that came to imprison her Is captured in her jewellery I see a moonlit Radha Standing on an icy throne Her warm feet make holy water For the thirsty and forlorn Some say she is only found in India Others say she has no home Some do only find her When they begin to roam Some say she is the closest Goddess Others say she can never be met But those who sing, "Radhe" Will come to know her secret I see a moonlit Radha Under a lonely maple tree Her warm feet make holy water As she stands on an icy throne. ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com

Dear Suryaz, Nice of you to think of me but I won't be there, however, if you do see me there please let me know. I won't be here much either as for some inexplicable reason I have not been able to access these forums for some weeks now. I've had to go to an internet cafe to post this. As you don't know who I am I'm sure you won't miss me. Nevertheless, I'm tempted to re-iterate my address . . . . . ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 01-06-2002).]

<font color=red>Nope</font> You're not in mine ! My noisiest pocket has some honest change left from a <font color=green>taxi fare</font>.....

looks like someone ate too much tofu revamp: looks like some<u>thing</u> ate too much tofu

This Christmas I will surely pray for naughty little Krishna: That He finds His lonely friends and embraces the greatest Nurture . Talasiga asks, Is not loneliness that very emptiness which invites the Divine ? . . . ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com

Dear JRdd I have responded on this Prayer thread: http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000633.html Kind Regards

Yes ! But Talasiga says: Krishna is the worst Flautist ! When He plays the happiest raga Everybody cries ..... And his saddest raga even Radha will not hear. All glories to the joyous Jamuna ! All glories to the Silent Sadness at Her shore ! [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-13-2001).]

Krishna rarely presents Himself fully to His friends He likes to leave some room to dance with them. That vacant space some call loneliness And aloneness is the dizziness of the spinning dancer seeing no-one. . . . ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com

Readers may note may note that this is Karthik's commentary on the following link: http://indiansaga.com/languages/early_dravidian_lang.html which I posted earlier as I thought it and related links contained independent information that readers may have found useful for the purposes of these "discussions"..... As a matter of record, readers should note that the link is not my site as Karthik contends when he says "your site" . Thank You very much

http://indiansaga.com/languages/early_dravidian_lang.html readers may find this and related links helpful for the purposes of making their own conclusions about these "discussions"..... Readers will note that there is no reference to any <u>explicit</u> religious work from the early Tamil "Sangam" era. The only early reference to an explicitly religious one is to a work as late as 200AD which is a reference to a Buddhist one in Tamil. [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-13-2001).]

Talasiga never said this. What Talasiga said was there are no Hindu writings in Tamil in the period under contention (say, from Siddhartha Gautama to the beginning of the Christian Era). He was making this point under the aegis of one of his salient arguments on this thread that, in examination of the classical or ancient Indian period, "[t]he criterion of popular vernacular writings about a faith is not a reasonable one to establish the extent of its permeation." The listing that Karthik provided was not well sourced, nor contextualised, and <u>appeared</u> to be a few names associated with the Sangam era of Tamil writings - an era about whose dates <u>there is much historical contention</u>. Shvu has already touched on the issue of the dating of various writings in relation to the Classical or Ancient period. Also Karthik's listing did not specify even briefly the content of the work of the authors mentioned. The historical references Talasiga has to significant works from this era (whose dates are a subject of contention) are a work on Tamil grammar and an epic poem and, it is not clear, from the information, whether the epic poem turns on religious/spiritual/theological/philosophical concepts. But however the discussion pans out, in the detail of whether there existed any religious Hindu writings in Tamil during the period <u>under discussion</u>, Talasiga's primary argument that "[t]he criterion of popular vernacular writings about a faith is not a reasonable one to establish the extent of its permeation" subsists because, in principle, some critical problems inhere in Kathik's approach. Here are some: 1. if you only find or prove that there was religious Hindu writings in Tamil at 500 BC, does that mean that there was no Hinduism permeating the masses in 700 BC because one cannot find Tamil literature from that time? 2. you would have to find Hindu scriptures in the pertinent vernaculars from every part of India for every period of Indian history in which you purport that Hinduism permeated the masses in those different areas of India. Therefore, regarding Maharashtra, you would need to find a Hindu text written in Marathi (or the equivalent vernacular for that period of history pertaining to Maharashtra area) around 500BC if you contended that Hinduism was there then. Ditto Bengal Ditto Orissa Ditto Kerala Ditto Vraja Ditto Ayodhya Ditto Sindh Ditto Madhya Ditto, Ditto, Ditto... 3. Different faiths and different societies and cultures offer different markers of permeation and it is a perilous exercise to measure phenomenon from one culture or religion using a marker from another religion. For instance, Talasiga has already given the example that Buddhist architecture in stone predominated in the last half millenium BC. Karthik's type of reasoning would conclude that Buddhism must have predominated other faiths because of the preponderance of the stone evidence. However, it may be that the focus of Hinduism in this period, if there was any focus on building temples and monuments, may have been centred on wood as the construction material. So it is not really appropriate to extrapolate the material evidence which predominates in one religion as a measure for another religion. [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-13-2001).]

Dear Karthik, Please note:- Gauracandra: If Buddhism were a mass religion then there should be ample evidence in the artwork and writings of the masses. talasiga: If you study art history of the Indian sub-continent you will notice "Buddhist" art predominates in period under discussion. The Ajanta-Ellora cave paintings, the Buddhist sites at Sanchi, NE India, Mathura (yes: MATHURA) and present day Afghanistan - Bamiyan etc. There is nothing from the evidence of sculptures, paintings or architecture of Hinduism that approaches the level of Buddhist evidence. Using your own reasoning this would prove that Buddhism predominated ! However, I don't agree with this reasoning and therefore I won't be inclined to say that Buddhism predominated as a mass religion on account of this. For example with regard to Hinduism, at that time 1. it may not have been a monument focussed faith. 2. its architecture and sculpture may still have been predominantly wooden rather than in stone which is the primary material of the Buddhist evidence etc Gauracandra: An argument that the masses were illiterate doesn't cut it, because for all civilizations for the last several thousand years, most people have been illiterate. talasiga: This isn't the argument at all. The argument is that in a society where the literate (and therefore, "teaching") class/es are focussed on Sanskrit or Pali, most of the significant writings will be in these languages. This was exactly the situation in classical eras of most ancient societies INCLUDING the classical era immediately preceding (and reflected in) early Christanity. Christian writings in Northern and Western European vernaculars only become significant from the Middle Ages when there was a growing shift <u>amongstthe literate </u> away from Latin and Greek with a greater appreciation of the beauty, relevance and capacity for vernaculars to serve as vessels for spiritual expression. Ditto for India - the shift to vernaculars as a focus for the literati occurs much later than the period under discussion. Talasiga Alone [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-12-2001).]

Perhaps it is you who are hallucinating because on this thread I have not yet argued that Buddhism was a mass predominating religion in India. My salient argument has been:- 1. The criterion of popular vernacular writings about a faith is not a reasonable one to establish the extent of its permeation. (especially when you are looking at ancient times where the majority of the masses were illiterate and the very small literate class/es had a Sanskritic or Pali focus) 2. Tamil Nadu is not an appropriate sample for the examination whether Buddhism dominated Hinduism in any period of Indian History. [This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-12-2001).]

talasiga: Can you show me any Tamil Hindu writings from the BC period. Even before Siddhartha's appearance in Northern India. No ! Accordingly, your logic would have it that, therefore, Hinduism wasn't widespread. Inane ! karthik: From the BC period? Sure. If you can read ancient Tamil, read up ...................... talasiga: If your "rebuff" relies on me being able to read Tamil, then you have failed because I cannot. My Diksha Guruji was a native speaker of Tamil but he died some years ago so he cannot help me with my petty discussions.

Your very honest comments about my poetry are not relevant to this thread. Gauracandra had kindly started a thread called "Talasiga's poetry". I would be most gratified if you were to post your comments there OR as and when and where you read the verses (ie on the thread that the verses appear). On the other hand, if you are just trying to hurt my feelings, it may be best to simply ignore any of my poems which seem to be heartfelt. This way you can hurt me directly without stooping to insults.

<U>HAGIOGRAPHY</U> karthik: Webster defines Hagiography as folows: "HAGIOG'RAPHY, n. [Gr. holy, and a writing.] Sacred writings. The Jews divide the books of the Scriptures into three parts; the Law, which is contained in the five first books of the Old Testament; the Prophets, or Nevim; and the Cetuvim, or writings, by way of eminence. The latter class is called by the Greeks Hagiographa, comprehending the books of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ruth, Esther, Chronicles, Canticles, Lamentations, and Ecclesiastes." And now where was I using it? In this context: -------------------------------- quote: -- The present form of Hinduism [with Idol worship, temples, etc] is believed to have been the result of the retaliation of the Brahmanas against spreading Buddhism. -- Again, there is no hagiographic evidence to support this. -------------------------------- talasiga: The standard and precise usage of "hagiography" is to denote <u>writings about saints</u>. Please see Concise Oxford Dictionary. The meaning that you have given is covered in Oxford by the word "Hagiographa" meaning the 12 books of the Hebrew Scriptures not included under the Law and Prophets groupings. If you meant "sacred writing" it might have been better if you had said so.

karthik: Ashoka's inscriptions are not in Pali alone but Avadhi as well. So, the inscriptions are in many Prakrits. talasiga: DING DING DING A LING A LING ! Wakey wakey ! 1. royal inscriptions on stone pillars do not constitute the substantial SCRIPTURAL record of a faith which is the subject here. 2. As Ashoka did not rule Tamil Nadu, it is hardly likely one would find his inscriptions there ! (not that this point is really relevant in the light of point 1).

talasiga: It appears that you are displaying your ignorance through false erudition. In the linguistic context "Prakrit" means any ancient natural language of India co-existing with Sanskrit and derived from it. This is how it was in the early 1970's when I studied linguistics. Even the Concise Oxford Dictionary gives a similar meaning. karthik: Perhaps, I wasn't clear in expression. Ashoka's inscriptions are not in Pali alone but Avadhi as well. So, the inscriptions are in many Prakrits. talasiga: Sorry ! Your expression "First of all Pali was just one of the many prakrits; not a language as many believe", was quite clear as any reader will see and clearly demonstrated your misunderstanding of the nexus between Pali, Prakrit and language.

Hey ghari ! That's a nice photo Thanx for posting it !

This is a very appropriate and interesting link. I am not a great FAN of soya either despite being dietetically a vegan for nearly 30 years now as I am not able to tolerate dairy. This is not due to some cerebral reckoning but my own experience in a therapeutic dietary context. I also note that Dr Max Gerson, who promoted a Potassium rich, low fat, predominantly fruit and vegetable based diet for cancer cure specifically prohibited the soya bean on account of its high fat content (along with nuts etc). Most dried pulses such as beans and lentils have a low percentage of fat 4% for chick peas, less than 3% for the others. However soya beans are 17% and while most of this is unsaturated, it must be remebered that it will undergo cooking. Latest research tends to show that the the heating of unsaturated fats renders them carcinogenic. references: Dr Max Gerson - A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases Totality Books Publishers PO Box 1035, Del Mar, California. Ford Heritage - Composition and Facts About Foods Republished by Special permission of the author by Health Research, PO Box 70, Mokelumne Hill, California 95245 Udo Erasmus - Fats that Heal Fats that Kill the complete guide to fats, oils, cholestrol and human health ISBN 0-920470-38-6 Alive Books, 7436 Fraser Park Drive, Burnaby BC Canada Even so my wife loves the tofu mousse I make for her in summer: Vitamise (blenderise) a hunk of tofu (200 grams) with a Hanuman handful of any dried fruit of choice OR a dollop of HONEY with the juice of one orange and a Hanuman handful of some fruit in season like MANGOES (some cardamoms or vanilla bean may be blended in also) Plop into dishes and garnish with some sliced fruit Put in freezer for 1.5 hours (experimentation allowed) and Presto: Talasiga's Tofu Mousse !