gHari

When you described the theme of the book: "Kind of like that novel, Lord of the Flies, where children, finding themselves suddlenly free of adult supervision, play at forming their own instinctive society. With nothing to check them, all becomes one big hunting game… " I immedaitely saw the material world with no God in charge and the resultant society we have formed. Kill the pig! Kill the pig!

Wow, Theist was Maitreya. I liked him. Almost as much as Theist.

I don't do them. I'm alive.

The theory has some colour: perhaps in our very last material life we will behave like a perfect servant or friend or father or lover. Krsna is satisfied with that evolutional personality and accepts it into the Kingdom. Or when we get close, we have to take birth on the planet in the universe where Krsna is actually displaying His Nitya-lila pastimes, and we assume a position there of queen or child of His queen or a servant in His court or as His cowherd friend before finally moving on to Goloka in our perfected rasa. It does have some poetry, as though maya, the travelling through billions of existences up and down the food chain somehow is a gigantic random personality generator. But is that as it is? Or perhaps each jiva exists because they are a unique expression of love of God? Love becomes a rainbow of attractions to each of the various unlimited qualities of Sri Krsna to greater and lesser degrees, producing unlimited personalities and lovers, mellows that are generally classified by scholars in five primary rasa groupings. Therefore Krsna's infinite unknowable nature would give rise to unlimited loving entities glorifying Him in every way - although that is not possible; yet maybe it is possible, inconceivably in eternity with infinite associates (we can only hope). Bound to the gunas, we all more or less look the same because our personalities are covered, forgotten to varying degrees. As the mist fogging our real nature is burned away by the soul's innate loving warmth we gradually resume our true role in the dance, and find ourselves everlasting in the sunshine of the eternal pastimes of Vaikuntha, the Kingdom of God.

I knew it. We are living on the moon! I knew it all along. We went to the moon and stayed - we were all transported in our sleep. The earth was destroyed by the Russia/America nuclear war. That barren ball in the sky is actually all that's left of the earth. It's all a hoax. The machines have taken over. At the end of my self-realization meditations it was revealed: the truth - I have become ................. <img src=http://re3.mm-a11.yimg.com/image/21142065 align=top> Free your mind. Unplug from the matrix of the gunas. The truth shall set you free.

This quote is inconsistent with the rest of the quotes and post which deny the predetermination of bhakti.

Predestination of bhakti remains under dispute. Why are we discussing this stuff anyway? Was this just another way to get to the origins ramblings again? I guess so; you guys are so transparent. If you cared about anything else or anyone else then y'all wouldn't appear quite so obvious, shallow, condescending and impersonal.

Yes, a few times I've wondered if a Gaudiya preacher could make it as a stand-up comedian. "Take my wife, ...... please". The Vedas say we live forever. Nobody told me that when I took my wedding vows. "Take my wife, ...... please". If the soul is more powerful than the sun, then why don't I have a tan all year round? Some holy dude said that if I sing this hymn I'll go to the Kingdom of God. So I asked, "You got MTV there"? I studied God for thirty years at the ashram. He's more a mystery now than ever. At the ashram we couldn't have sex or booze. So you can imagine how quickly the place would empty out on Friday nights.

This stuff all falls away in time. Krsna is very powerful. He makes it all painless. Don't worry. Looking back at what He's been able to accomplish so far with this rogue, I have complete faith that He can conquer me and my peccadillos.

Perhaps he can't chant, but he should listen to Prabhupada's japa. All the proof he needs, an ocean of proof is in his heart as CB mentions. Japa: http://chantandbehappy.com/bin/prabhupada/music/01_Group_Japa.rm

Women make up their minds. It's hard to say "no". I stay away.

People don't have a lot of time. And only carefully come between them and their enjoyment - you will become the target of the resultant anger. I find we have only a tiny window every now and then to give some clues. After those seeds reach the surface then maybe they can have another clue. We will see them gradually move from ignorance to passion to goodness - maybe less drunken, maybe less out of control, maybe cleaner, maybe a bit more introspective.

Guru, sadhu, sastra? Do we have any proof for this all-encompassing predestination theory? Romapada Swami has been quoted clearly stating the opposite, but then refuted and discarded somehow. But no real quotes have been presented in support of the mechanical nature of the bhakti.

But you contend that all the roles are written, already scripted, we don't 'play' the game - we only observe, because the game is set, the future is set, predetermined, even for the uttama-bhagavat. As in

Conclusions of a false premise "Everything is predestined, including bhakti" I am a robot because my choices are already made, eons ago allegedly by me, but that power no longer exists because now everything is predestined. I have absolutely no control whether I will chant, become attracted to Krsna, serve Krsna's desire - even what Krsna's desire will be now was determined eons ago. It is all predestined. Clearly I don't really exist as a separate entity; perhaps I did eons ago, but now I don't. I am a Mayavadi robot; the self is illusion once entering the Mahat-tattva dream. Que sera, sera.

This sounds more like New Wave Ooga-Booga, the idea that we choose the bodily vessel and life from a fleet in the harbor. We GET the life we need according to karma. Isn't that what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita? Or maybe we are backtracking saying that all those zillions of choices we have made in the past producing what we are conditioned to be now dictates what we will be in the future somehow can be summed up by saying that we CHOOSE the next situation. But why bother? It's a little too misleading, to say the least. What makes us think that Krsna has to set up this whole Maha dream totally in advance. Sounds kind of boring to me for a dream ... even for reality. Where's His relationship with these robots who simply follow their predestination?

Predestination is what I was talking about; what you were talking about. The "future is set" is what the cheater wrote. Stop trying to change the subject and present yourself as superior and me as an idiot. Your lack of integrity here shows you as very inferior, very insincere, as just playng games. What are the consequences of preaching the predestination of bhakti? Try reading my post for once if you are capable of doing more than copying and pasting. Suggesting I don't understand this and that while on other threads it was clearly evident that I did suggests to me that it is not Paramatma but ahakhara that writes these evasive answers here. I was not born yesterday, so why do you assume I was? Are you that dull? Is everyone that dull in your eyes? Or can you only answer the parts you have pastings for? This is very unsatisfactory. You are not the ones to promote this theory. Choose a more capable champion.

Los Angeles 14 February, 1970 My Dear Madhudvisa, Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your two letters dated 10 and 12 February, 1970 respectively. I am glad to learn that you are early planning for the upcoming Ratha-yatra festival. In this connection, I have requested the exact date of the festival from India but it has not yet been replied, so you may plan for any suitable date between 20 and 31 July--even if it does not correspond, we have to arrange conveniently, that is allowed. So far additions for this years Rathayatra, you may make three Rathas, one for each of the Deities. The rest of the details are already there, simply you may may supply more money for festoons, decorations, flowers, bells, flags, etc. The Spiritual Sky is far away, but you just try to do it following Jagannatha Puri Rathayatra. Jagannatha Puri or wherever Rathayatra is performed is not different from the spiritual sky. In the spring you may lead a very big procession on Lord Caitanya's birthday. This is a good plan to celebrate this great spring festival out of doors. So make this a very opulent procession with large Sankirtana Party and you may also celebrate in this way again with a procession on Janmastami day. These two important subjects may be observed in this way by all the three areas and similarly in other centers also. Regarding your first question, a pure devotee is never under the modes of nature. In other words, no material laws apply on a devotee because he is fully under the direction of Krsna. So a devotee can continue his present occupation or he may change it if he likes. Krsna does not force a devotee because <B>the devotee acts spontaneously according to the desire of the Lord</B>; in this kind of loving service there is no question of force. Force is applied only when there is denial of Krsna. Just as the citizens of a state have freedom to follow the laws of the state, that is subordinate freedom, and the freedom of the living entities is also subordinate to Krsna. The clue is given there in the Bhagavad-gita that the living entities are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, this means that all the qualities of Krsna are therefore present in minute quantity in each of His parts and parcels. That is simultaneously one and different philosophy--the living entities thus have free will because they are parts of Krsna and Krsna has free will, but the free will of Krsna is Supreme while the freedom of the parts and parcels is minute. So if the living entity out of love subordinates his free will to Krsna that is his liberation. He is no longer forced to act helplessly, but he acts freely rendering loving devotional service to Krsna in every way. Then we have the practical conclusion from Krsna confirmed by Him in Bhagavad-gita (18:66), ``Just surrender unto Me; and in return I shall protect you from all sinful reactions. Therefore you have nothing to fear.'' In this way astral influences are also material and therefore they do not affect the devotee who has taken protection of Krsna's internal energy, by surrendering his life and soul in the service of the Lord. Your second question about spacemen from other planets; it is stated in the Vedic literature that there are many planets where the inhabitants are more advanced than the inhabitants of this earth planet. So it is not unlikely that such people may have developed space travelling methods. They occupy higher posts in the creation of the Lord and so they may be considered as demigods in the same way as the president is specially empowered by the nation, but this does not mean that such spacemen are necessarily carrying the messages of the Lord, just as the business of the state employee is not to act as the state representative but he acts in his particular job. <B>Because Krsna knows everyone's future does not remove our free will. Someone may commit a theft, and if I know that then I know that he will be captured and punished. That is knowing his future, but know that future does not mean that he had no choice not to commit the criminal act. There are two destinies for every one. One destiny is in Krsna Consciousness and the other destiny is in material consciousness, so if someone is in Krsna Consciousness then Krsna knows his future and if he is in material consciousness and acting in that way then Krsna also knows his future. In this way the free will is not affected by knowing the future of the living being, that is an erroneous conclusion. </b>In regard to praying to Lord Nityananda Prabhu I have written to you in my last letter that such prayer is quite appropriate. Our only prayer should be in the matter of desiring further development of devotional service and such sincere prayer should be submitted not directly to the lord but through the via-media of His bona fide servitor or representative. I am very glad to learn that S.F. Temple is doing very nicely in the street Sankirtana with transcendental plays. And your BTG sales are very encouraging to me. I have heard from Gargamuni that you are ordering 20,000 issues of BTG and this is very good news. Selling BTG means that out movement is increasing and our philosophy is being appreciated. Uttama Sloka is a very good devotee and I am also glad to learn that he is of great assistance to you in guiding the new devotees. He may remain there with my permission for as long as he may like, I know that he is very valuable as an expert Temple manager. I have already sent Hamsaduta to oversee the Germany center and help them be organized. I am very happy to learn that you are arranging for opening another center in San Jose. From your letter I can understand that it will be a good start in spreading our Krsna Consciousness movement to the Spanish speaking people. I do not care whether the center is opened this place or that place, simply I want to see that eventually a center is opened in every place. So far now you may start the center in San Jose, and as you say that there are many advantages to this procedure, you must develop it nicely. This will be a good opportunity for Citsukhananda and his wife to engage some Spanish speaking devotees to help them when the South American center is first opened. So by the near location you should keep in close touch and give them all assistance as much as possible. Your plan is fully approved by me, and you may immediately begin your preparations without delay. I am so very happy to learn of your increasing desire to spread this Sankirtana movement. My Guru Maharaja used to say that one who has actually got life cannot do but preach this Krsna Consciousness--real spiritual life means he must preach, and he is really a preacher. Now we must prepare all our disciples for serious preaching work, so I am requesting everyone of my initiated students to very seriously chant daily sixteen rounds without fail and to strictly follow the regulative practices. If these two things are done regularly there will be no chance of falling down because these principles are the essential basis of spiritual strength. In addition to this the classes and individual study of our scriptures must be done very scrutinizingly by you all so that you can be preachers fully convinced yourselves of this transcendental science and its necessity for the mankind in general. If one simply regularly chants and follows the rules and regulative principles all questions of philosophy will be answered by Krsna from within and all doubt will be cleared also in this way. And the same answers are there again in our books like Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc. So please see that all the initiated devotees stick rigidly to their daily chanting and regulative living in devotional service. This is most important. Hope this will meet you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

This is not why Krsna knows all time: "and therefore knows past, present and future". Are we to turn bhakti into a mechanical thing, not nirguna? One might ask: if it's all predestined and mechanical then why does Ksirodakashayi Visnu come along for the ride? Why should I bother doing anything - what's going to happen is going to happen? Why chant? Why remember Krsna? Where is the love? Love is now mechanical. I am a robot. I don't exist. I am Mayavadi. Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

Sarva gattah, that is my understanding and experience as well. I realize now that it was actually Svarupa not you who posted that contaminated quote from BG 7.26 speculating that the "future is already set within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu" in the Synonyms. I don't know how I somehow associated the post with you. My apologies. Bhagavad-gita 7.26: <center> vedAhaM samatItAni vartamAnAni cArjuna bhaviSyANi ca bhUtAni mAM tu veda na kazcana </center> veda--know; aham--I; samatItAni--completely past; vartamAnAni--present; ca--and; arjuna--O Arjuna; bhaviSyANi--future; ca--also; bhUtAni--all living entities; mAm--Me; tu--but; veda--knows; na--not; kazcana--anyone. O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows. So many times I read these canned pieces and I think I'm reading Prabhupada but it's just speculation. I wish it could be written more clearly. I've felt cheated several times. I imagine it is accidental and inexperience, but my trust is gone. This one was so false and dangerous.

It reminds me of the story related by Sripad Janardan Maharaja in the video posted on a recent thread here where he speaks of how we sometimes have to back up a bit and then take a run to jump over a big ditch. Good luck, Sacinandana Swami. Recharge and keep running.

It is easiest to worship Krsna in His merciful form of Sri Caitanya. These words are my favorite to utter whenever: Nityananda-Gauranga, Nitai-Gaura, Sri-Krsna-Caitanya-Prabhu-Nityananda-Sri-Advaita-Gadadhara-Srivasadi-Gaura-bhakti-Vrinda. Prefacing the Hare Krsna mantra with these names brings us to a level where the mantra comes automatically to our lips from above. Then you cannot stop chanting. There is no question of starting - you just can't stop. The taste of reality is just too strong to go anywhere else.

We live because that pleases Krsna. It is all about Krsna. Every answer to every question is "Krsna". That should make it easier.

We don't even ask this question. Sankirtana is not something we do. Sankirtana is something that is done. The only real answer is surrender. We do not manufacture marketing plans and sales strategies - this is mundane and the results will be mundane.

Darwinism leads to this meaningless.