JRdd

Interesting Gaurachandra prabhu. But I’m not sure anymore if I like your line of thinking. Your assessments about the effect of economic policy on culture overlooks a lot, and your belief that it is women who make the rules that control men slides right off the page of credibility in my book. Finally, your proposal of cutting off government help to the most needy as a solution to societal ails is like saying that if we destroy all cars we will solve the problem of pollution. I will tie all three of these points together in arguing against this solution, which seeks to blame everyone except those who are blameworthy. First, we are too far down the road to entertain the idea of forcing abrupt change; it will only cause chaos and rebellion and even more suffering than is already being felt. You have not gone deep enough or thoroughly enough in exploring the causes of our problems today, and by your statements, of proposing from your easy chair the infliction of increased suffering across a wide band of the population, by removing the already meager government aid to families in need, you yourself exemplify so well the need for localised government--for centralised governing causes detachment from the needs, feelings and requirements of its people. Your solutions are weak because your premises are weak. While reading your descriptions of men jumping through women’s hoops my suspicions that you were speaking of a particular generation were confirmed near the end of your second post, where you referred to people of about forty years ago. However, in previous times, even in the earlier part of the 1900's, men in general were of a nobler ilk; they behaved dutifully (and lovingly) out of their higher standards of morality, integrity, religiosity, sensitivity, and general all round goodness. (My grandparents were among the last of this line. Srila Prabhupada was of this era also.) Expectations women have of men have nothing to do with the way men act. This is proven vividly if we look at the many many instances where Vaisnavis married in all sincerity, innocence, and devotion, husbands they EXPECTED would be exemplary as per the Vedic conception of the husband as guru, and who would treat them affectionately as normally exists between spouses. The fact that so many young women were shocked by their husband’s behavior, and left bereft, to raise the children alone (often without even financial support) proves this. For who in their right mind would marry if they expected such devastating and tragic results? (I myself desired to have at least three children but because moral and financial support was lacking, what to speak of kindness, I had to stop at one child. Later, I had to remove that child from the cruel environment. That was not my idea or choice when I married. I had entered that marriage idealisticially, considering it to be marriage for life.) Not only do you profess to blame women for men’s behaviour, you also blame government help as the cause of the problem of abandoned mothers and children. NO. Government aid merely attempts to address a problem which was already there. I think you need to look more at men’s role in the breakdown of society. Please start by looking at the following quotes, a selection of verses from Laksmi Tantra chapter 43, on the subject of women and their status in the Pancaratra tradition. na samret kamini nindam karmana manasa gira yatraham tatra tattvani tatraham tatra devatah - (62) A yogin should never abuse a woman, either in deed, speech or thought. Where ever I (Lakshmi) am, the realities are. where ever I am the gods too are. yo bhinindati tam narim laksmima bhinindati yo bhinindati tam laksmi trailokyama bhinindati (64) He who abuses women abuses Laksmi herself He who abuses Laksmi abuses the entire three worlds. jyotsnam iva striyam drstva yasya cittam prasidati napadhyayati yatkincit sa me priyatmano matah (66) He whose heart is gladdened by the sight of women - like moonlight and who never entertains evil thoughts about them, he is most dear to me aruna hyapaga yadvattatha simantini vara yadasmi janani nama trayanam jagatamaham (69) As also the Aruna river, so too are all women revered as being sinless. ... mattanurvanita saksad yogi kasmanna pujayet na kuryad vrjinam naryah kuvrttam na smaret striyah (71) Knowing women as my direct manifestation, how can a yogi refrain from revering them ? Women should always be worshipped and treated with affection. The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva, Section XLVI “Bhishma said: Respect, kind treatment and everything else that is agreeable, should all be given unto the maiden whose hand is taken in marriage. Her sire and brothers and father-in law and husband's brothers should show her every respect and adorn her with ornaments. If they be desirous of reaping benefits, for such conduct on their part always leads to considerable happiness and advantage. Women should always be worshipped and treated with affection. There where women are treated with respect, the very deities are said to be filled with joy. There where women are not worshipped, all acts become fruitless. If the women of a family, in consequence of the treatment they receive, grieve and shed tears, that family soon becomes extinct. Those houses that are cursed by women meet with destruction and ruin as if scorched by some Atharvan rite. Such houses lose their splendour. Their growth and prosperity cease. Women are disposed to accept the love that is offered to them, and devoted to truth. Women deserve to be honoured. Do ye men show them honour. The righteousness of men depends upon women. All pleasures and enjoyments also completely depend upon them. Do ye serve them and worship them. Do ye bend your wills before them. The begetting of offspring, the nursing of children already born, and the accomplishment of all acts necessary for the needs of society, behold, all these have women for their cause. By honouring women, ye are sure to attain to the fruition of all objects. Deities of prosperity are women. The persons that desire prosperity should honour them. By cherishing women, one cherishes the goddess of prosperity herself, and by afflicting her, one is said to afflict the goddess of prosperity.” The well-meaning devotee who gathered these wonderful quotes ruined it by his own purport, in which he proposed that all chaste women be honored and respected. What is wrong with that statement, some may wonder. Just one word, that’s all. Nowhere in the above quotes has it been stated that “chaste” women are to be treated respectfully. This gives excuses to the men to mistreat those they don’t deem worthy of their respect. The truth is, however, that one should treat ALL women with honor, respect, and protection, and they WILL be chaste. Go back to Bhagavad-gita, young man, where we have read countless times about the cause of societal breakdown. Then we can start talking about the role of RELIGION in society, which you failed to address in all of your above points. Kindly respond to my points if you will, prabhu. I look forward to it. Thanks, Jayaradhe dasi

I like your way of thinking, Gaurachandra. I knew this was going to be an interesting article. I once wrote an essay on universality versus localised government, maybe I can dig it out and refer to it before this discussion is over. Recently my ex said a stunning thing; he actually complained to me that for years he has ben having to go to the trouble of hiding his income for years so they couldn't get him for child support. Didn't occur to him once, to help us out when I was practically begging on the street (selling stuff) to get enough money for food for my ("his") daughter? His parents had been under the impression that he was payng child support so once, years ago, I finally wrote and told them the truth, adding that in this country such nonsupporters are termed deadbeat dads and are pursued by the legal authorities, thinkng the stigma of that might spread over to him from them (guess it didn't though!)(what can you do? You can't get angry; that is simply defeating. It's the other guy's problem on a deeper level than the problem of poverty is for the sufferer). Well it makes sense that it would be more apparent to everyone that the parent isn't paying if all single parents were seen to be struggling so. No one seemed to notice my struggles though. I did have welfare, but it did not even cover the rent. anyway, this touches on just part of one angle of your presentation, but I just wanted to contribute a vivid example of your point. ys, Jayaradhe

Adding to the excellent points already made by Jndas, MC, and jijaji (did I leave anyone out--sorry) in answer to shvu, who seems to like everything put in neat little boxes (as shown, for example, by your questioning the difference between having a Mcdonald's right next door or two blocks away, and other statements), there is the art of feng shui, or I believe Vedically it's called vastu, to consider. The energies in one's environment do make a difference, and as far as possible adjustments can or should be made to ensure the optimal situation. And by the way, if one is vegetarian, one may often smell from the outside what is going on inside these places, same as I can smell cigarette smoke lingering in the air where most people I know can not smell it at all. I can't get my printer going, tried to refill the ink cartridge for the first time. Guess I'll be sending out a handwritten letter to these people, gotta act quick, unless someone has found a cyber way yet. thanks, JR

Adding to the excellent points already made by Jndas, MC, and jijaji (did I leave anyone out--sorry) in answer to shvu, who seems to like everything put in neat little boxes (as shown, for example, by your questioning the difference between having a Mcdonald's right next door or two blocks away, and other statements), there is the art of feng shui, or I believe Vedically it's called vastu, to consider. The energies in one's environment do make a difference, and as far as possible adjustments can or should be made to ensure the optimal situation. And by the way, if one is vegetarian, one may often smell from the outside what is going on inside these places, same as I can smell cigarette smoke lingering in the air where most people I know can not smell it at all. I can't get my printer going, tried to refill the ink cartridge for the first time. Guess I'll be sending out a handwritten letter to these people, gotta act quick, unless someone has found a cyber way yet. thanks, JR

Krsna Krsna. (hear, hear, and chant, chant)

Thanks for the reassurance, Maitreya prabhuji. As usual you show sensitivity befitting a Vaisnava, forgive me for saying so. Everyone needs at least a little soothing balm of kindness once in a while. Jagannath prabhu, please don't take offence, but I have been wondering about this for days and finally I just want to ask it: Why would someone whocalls himself a brahmachari invite a woman to his place, as you invited Atma? If you were in the role of a sannyasi at one time, then took on the position once again of brahmacarya, well, considering the difficulties of renunciation as you presumably have experienced, it seems to me you would take extra precautions to preserve your avowed celibacy? respectfully, Jayaradhe dasi

Thank you both for these wonderful thoughts. Humility it seems for me sometimes has to be worked at, when really put to the test, and your reminders of the resultant gifts of humility are enough to inspire even me. How attractive the idea, to become lower than the straw in the street, and to chant with such an attitude of acceptance of others. I was thinking today how I sometimes allow myself to be irritated with others' inconsiderate actions, when actually it is not business of mine what is in them that caused them to be neglectful. I thought if I could only correct the neglect left behind without resentment, and truly see it as an opportunity to practice increased love and acceptance of others. To be able to do so seemed a far way off as i thought of all this, and still does, but your posts help me to see the possibilities that are in store. I pray I may have your kind of association in my life increasingly. your aspiring servant, Jayaradhe dasi

Well what serendipity, a dip in serenity to see your post, living entity, as I was only just now thinking with gratitude that jndas has the courage--and more than that, the concern for our consciousness--to moderate responsibly without concern for popular opinion, and I came here jsut now partly to thank him too. Your detachment, jndas prabhu, inspires me to strive for the same quality. ys, Jayaradhe

Who is pooping in their own backyard prabh? Can you be a little more specific? As your post came right after mine, I am feeling a little hurt by this remark, and wish I hadn't looked in here now. JR

Hi all, this has been a real nice read, haven't been here for a few days so there was a lot. Well, while you are all becoming braver in revealing yourselves, and I am grateful for your trusting the rest of us with your stories, I am becoming less so, and have deleted my personal stuff here. I wish to make it clear that I would never take part in a book which had to complain about men, or ill treatement in ISKCON (actually I was blessed with mostly wonderful experiences while living in the temple), and I also wish to explain that when I told a bit of my experience as a single mother newly imported from abroad, it was a narration intended with no ill will toward anyone. I like myself too much, and value my peace of mind and spiritual growth too much, to hang on to things of the past. You can't hold grudges if you want to move on. Atma's experience is fresher and so she may have needed to really unload that, and it is so wonderful that many have supported her in that, which is mainly what I intended to do when I empathetically added a bit of my own history. I also hoped to encourage her that things get better, easier (at least if that is the Lord's will). My daughter's dad is here off and on for a month visiting, and this is a reasonable and not inharmonious visit. I see no reason not to offer him our wonderful back porch and couch for sleeping on, and allowing him the facility of being comfortable and visiting his daughter, without having to pay through the nose to stay somewhere. I sprouted wheat and chickpeas in anticipation of his raw fruitarian arrival, knowing the travel would have made it difficult to eat in his usual way. He has helped get me started building an altar. While there is no possibility for being in a married situation together, there is a possibility of behaving as friends, for the sake of our daughter, and finding our common ground. I am just trying to make it clear, here, that while one can choose to be bitter and hang on to old things, I choose rather to take each day as new, each person as new, and myself as new each day. This is forgiveness. Not all of us who have had bad experiences in life (whatever they have been--and we all have had them; certainly I hold no monopoly, for sure) lose our fresh outlook. However, wisdom comes with age and experience and through the grace of God, and right or wrong, I felt that I wanted to delete my personal story here. It has been read by she for whom I intended it. Last year I posted very personally on a forum, calling on the support of the devotees, and their wonderful and caring responses helped me move right through my trauma, very swiftly. There were a few who did not wish me well and I got some negativity there, but over all, I felt no regrets, only gratitude, in having successfully evoked the compassion and sage advice of my friends. So I laud those of you who are doing that here, and I wish more would, but I have been dealt with too harshly too many times in cyberspace this year to have much taste for making myself vulnerable in such an assembly. Tea you say? Is that the worst you can come up with? There is one in this assembly who has a strong dislike for me (and also continues to regard me as a clone of my sister). To you I say I do not hold grudges, though you may. I may be twice bitten thrice shy, and choose my association based on what is mutually spiritually nurturing, which necessitates excluding from close proximity to me certain persons, but I do not hold onto things. Or should I say I do not let things grip me. At least I try not to. I appreciate your forthrightness in opening up, Jagat, but I see no reason to feel that your past has much to do with your present. I will be meeting you, Atma, in the mailbox, and am very glad to, too. It would be a good idea if we wore our names at Rathayatra. Wouldn't that be a kick? I decided to go regardless, after being reminded by Lord Jagannath's namesake of all the happy smiling faces that will be there. Ditto to Mr das' last comment, Maitreya. Out with it already. ys, Jayaradhe

Hari bol, Atma, It would be great to meet you at Rathayatra. If you want, email me at . ys, Jayaradhe [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-30-2001).] [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 07-03-2001).]

Dear Atma prabhu, Just being who you are, so honest and true, you reveal yourself as a wonderful person, and I too welcome you if you ever get a chance to have a break in the beautiful mountains of Northern California. I laud your bravery and your gumption and I pray that the dilemma you face is resolved. The dilemma of whether it is better not to raise your children around those you see as cold and unsupportive, though they be dressed as devotees. All the other stories you told here were also heartbreaking. Not new, not worse or better than ones I know of, and elements of them not unfamiliar to me personally. best wishes, your sister, Jayaradhe [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 07-03-2001).]

Hari bol, freinds, I like this idea of a thread, though was thinking I'd see more hanging out, maybe a bit more risk-taking, but really, how do you do that in cyberspace when only Krsna knows who all's reading these. How much can you reveal in a place where you do not feel entirely nurtured or accepted? And how can you feel that way in such a wide open space. (back to the small is beautiful idea). which brings me to say, that even though this is my main association, and for which I am grateful beyond words to describe, still I feel also the angst of separation and feel as if the written word is where our friendships and commitments with and to each other stop. This is not multidimensional depth from where I stand, but I also stand still to be corrected on this if need be. I am sad when I feel that someone doesn't want to meet me personally, but acts as a friend cyberly, I for sure appreciate that friendship, but can not help but also feel hurt that I may be avoided, as if there is soemthing wrong with me, when we come to be in the same temple or celebration. Anyway, there is a lot more to say, about many many things, but I will start and stop here for now, and let someone else speak next. your servant and aspiring friend, Jayaradhe

We won't need to be in an information age if we do everything naturally and in harmony with the earth and her resources. Information in our age is only needed due to the exploitive mentality. No jobs, either, and no money. Just good honest natural work, and bartering one's services or goods. Doesn't that sound way more fun?

Before I move on down this thread I need to make a few serious amendments to Maitreya's plan before it gets taken too seriously and someone acts on it. Please scroll down. So far, so good. Now at this point I would like to say that most everything I agree with except for size, which necessitates the high tech transit system he speaks of. Instead of a huge town, so huge that duplicate circles can be contained within the larger circle, you make neighbouring townships, not too close together, forests between, a few miles at least, makes get togethers more exciting and fun, and then there also is more variety, which happens naturally, when a group of people work closely together in these smaller, localized situations. Please read Small is Beautiful by Schumacher again. When things get too big, things self destruct, as we have seen in even our ISKCON history. Localization means more personal, and more understanding of the peoples' requirements and mentalities and makes better use of their talents. So no need for some big old transit system to spoil the looks of everything. And no nedd for such wide streets then either. Just little lanes, walking paths, horse carts, yes! and bicycle lanes, and plenty of spontaneous help for the oldsters who may need to be wheeled along. Lots of grass and benches to lounge on, even sleep on if one wants, in total safety. Lots of free food along the way, for the land is well tended and the trees in the main grounds are fruit as well as flowering trees, particularly cherry trees, and many people like to bring out their baked goods and produce for offering in the temple then bringing outside for locals and wayfarers alike. No one is ever hungry. This Brazillia got too big for its boots because it was designed with capitalism in mind. My landlord's lady is from that city, and is returning from there this week, and the situation of economics is terrible--though it does not affect the average person--meaning, I gathered from his description, those few lucky ones in the city proper. Keep things small. Even if it means one town houses the main huge temple for neighbouring villages. I love the spokes idea though, and the trees lining the walks. Don't forget the streams, and a river to swim in. Agree about the music, too, with the addition of banning certain types of country music. Neil Young would be allowed and encouraged. Oh now I see that I missed Maitreya's important point about each small wheel being self-sufficient, which addresses my concern about small is beautiful. So it looks like I am in agreement with everything he said except for the transit system. But then maybe I am not being practical. I bow to your genius. JR

Turmeric it is.

Why Fiji, please? JR P.S. Where is Kaliya Serpent?

I always think about respecting God's creation. It is not ours to disrespect. This includes not interfering the perfect balance He has created, in order for all living entities, creatures tall and small, to live out their lives as God intended. Sri Isopanisad has some relevant verses, and commentaries by Srila Prabhupada. More later, but leaving this open for someone else to step in. I love this subject. Again, you have come up with a naturally interesting topic. ys, Jayaradhe

I'd be very interested to hear some of his experiences. Can you share some? Jayaradhe

Hari bol, my daughter's semi-grosso comment yesterday was not aimed at the devotees here but at the people who undertook the research. I apolgize for my careless communicating. And sorry if it got up anyone's noses. Jayaradhe

Interesting. And Im glad you created a new thread as I did realise I was threading off from the other topic. You start some interesting ones. Srila Prabhupada called the schools slaughterhouses. Alot of their focus is on gearing up the kids for the nine to five robot type stuff. It is striking how little time spent in the schools are actually spent on what they call education though. they are filling in time too, while their parents are at work. School keeps them off the streets. My daughter did a year's worth or algebra in a quarter of the time. I'm not claiming she retained it all, but that demonstrates how much you can do if not put to plod along in a public school. And part of the reason she gets it done is because she prefers to choose less subjects and just focus on them. the sad thing though is that even in this charter school the requirements are still imposing and largely unnecessary (due to the government interference) so there is the feeling of getting things over with. Education should and can be a joy. She finds it hard to believe when I tell her college is way different. In an ideal society a person might be taken out in the field and allowed to apprentice to someone, around the age of thirteen. this way they could get a taste of real experience and also test out their inclinations and propensities, whether they be artistic or agicultural or whatever. I myself loved school until about age nine or ten, then the whole thing got tedious and boring and seemed pointless, after those basics were learned. My daughter has always hated school and refused to go for such a long time. I am glad she never went to the worst of the bad: high school. Her charter school has a strong attitude about the kids not doing any school stuff during the breaks, including summer. then to dive back in in Septemeber. I have different feelings about this. but I know my daughter is joyful it's over for now, and is camping mostly now, at a swimming hole nearby, which she will do most of the summer off and on. I have been far from a great parent but I am glad at least that she has little taste for TV, having had none for the first seven years of her life, and then only in spurts off and on after that. I just wish I could have continued giving her more exposure to temple life, and been a better example myself. Jayaradhe

One small answer to that is charter schools. My daughter is homescooled and sees her education specialist (ES) theoretcially every twenty days but in reality less often. I am technically the teacher (had to relearn some algebra to help her out but now we're getting a tutor next time). The deal is, the state pays for the tutors, books, whatever is needed, and the ES helps the child choose what she wants to take each semester. My daughter was able to order lots of art supplies, paints and canvases (taking the financial burden off me as that is one area I don't hold back on for her) in addition to the text books and all. If she had accepted the offer to be an honor student this fall she would have been given a laptop computer and opportunites like going to other countries and stuff. She declined as it is also a lot of work for her as it is. So the drawback is, in the past year or so the charter schools, at least in California, have changed dramatically; the state has taken more control, against the wishes and philosophy of the parents, the students, and the educators, so there are stricter and less personal guidelines including more paperwork involved. The good thing though remains that the employess in this system, like our own ES, care avidly about education tailored for the individual, and find ways to take some of the bureaucratic pressure off too, as the encourage the child in his or her own ways. My daughtter wlaks a lot so this covers P.E. She can choose her own areas of study like focusing on the Rainbow Family, and the use of hemp as an environmentally friendly practice, etc. She can paint or sew or make a didgeridoo, as she does in her natural life anyway, and this all counts. So charter schools may be an answer or compromise for those who are unable to take the full financial and teaching burden of homeschooling, and for those who want their child to receive more personalism than the ordinary public schools provide. your servant, Jayaradhe

One small answer to that is charter schools. My daughter is homescooled and sees her education specialist (ES) theoretcially every twenty days but in reality less often. I am technically the teacher (had to relearn some algebra to help her out but now we're getting a tutor next time). The deal is, the state pays for the tutors, books, whatever is needed, and the ES helps the child choose what she wants to take each semester. My daughter was able to order lots of art supplies, paints and canvases (taking the financial burden off me as that is one area I don't hold back on for her) in addition to the text books and all. If she had accepted the offer to be an honor student this fall she would have been given a laptop computer and opportunites like going to other countries and stuff. She declined as it is also a lot of work for her as it is. So the drawback is, in the past year or so the charter schools, at least in California, have changed dramatically; the state has taken more control, against the wishes and philosophy of the parents, the students, and the educators, so there are stricter and less personal guidelines including more paperwork involved. The good thing though remains that the employess in this system, like our own ES, care avidly about education tailored for the individual, and find ways to take some of the bureaucratic pressure off too, as the encourage the child in his or her own ways. My daughtter wlaks a lot so this covers P.E. She can choose her own areas of study like focusing on the Rainbow Family, and the use of hemp as an environmentally friendly practice, etc. She can paint or sew or make a didgeridoo, as she does in her natural life anyway, and this all counts. So charter schools may be an answer or compromise for those who are unable to take the full financial and teaching burden of homeschooling, and for those who want their child to receive more personalism than the ordinary public schools provide. your servant, Jayaradhe

JNdas, how can we make friends with this astrologer? Jayaradhe