Guruvani

Prabhupada knew very well that disciples living together in a temple couldnt hide things from each other and especially a letter coming from Prabhupada, others were so curious to know what Prabhupada had written, how to hide this from others? Basically, the problems which Prabhupada had to address in these letters - all the disciples had more or less these same problems.

Maybe, maybe not.

But, you can't support that with the directs statements of Srila Prabhupada.

If you can, then please do.

"You can show this letter to Sriman Sivananda and Sriman Uttama Sloka and my request to you all is not to be childish, but to be serious for propagating Krishna Consciousness."

 

So, that proves my point.

Srila Prabhupada specifically authorized his disciple to share that letter with two other disciples.

This example clearly demonstrates that Srila Prabhupada would authorize a disciple to share a letter with other specific disciples.

From this example I can see that the letters of the spiritual master can only be shared if they are directly authorized to be shared by Srila Prabhupada.

One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksä-vidhäna. Lord Krsna states in Bhagavad-gitä, vyapäsritya: one should accept a spiritual master. By this process the entire world can be converted to Krsna consciousness.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 PURPORT:deal:

Srila Prabhupada instructed all his disciples (boys and girls) to become spiritual masters.

http://krishna.org/audio/MP3/Festivals___London_1973-08-22___Vyasa-puja--Thanks_to_the_Original_Guru.mp3

To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master.It is not difficult. It is difficult when you manufacture something. But if you simply present whatever you have heard from your spiritual master, it is very easy.

Every disciple of Srila Prabhupada has the authority and the order of Srila Prabhupada to become spiritual master.

Did the Gaudiya Matha disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur collect and centralize all the letters of Srila Saraswati Thakur to be read by anyone and everyone?

In fact, is there any such collection of personal letters in a central depository of any of the previous acharyas?

My guess is not likely.

ISKCON does all sorts of things that have never been done before by any previous acharya or even Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada also told one lady disciple once that Krishna cartoon coloring books and children's books were nonsense.

Nowadays these kinds of things are just done without any precedent or authority.

Every Tom, Dick and Hairy that can put together a book is publishing some unauthorized book with questionable value.

If something is authorized by the GBC or any ISKCON committee that cannot be considered as authenticated by an acharya.

ISKCON is running wild with all sorts or speculation, politics and selfish ambition.

I don't put an ounce of credibility in anything the GBC or any ISKCON committee authorizes.

The "old boys club" of ISKCON is a cartel of ambitious devotees all hoping to make a career out of ISKCON or being an ISKCON guru.

I don't trust that gang of thugs for one nano-second.

Here Premaprayojana Prabhu gives an overview of a part of Jaiva Dharma, by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur ----Read This and Faint!

When Baladeva is the predominating deity of that jiva-sakti, those jivas are called nitya-mukta parsada, eternally liberated associates. They are not called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha refers only to Radhika's kaya-vyuha. Even those jivas who have manifested directly from Baladeva and are always in the spiritual world, though they are eternally perfect, are not called nitya siddha.

That seems to be at odds with what Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur comments:

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.10.13 purport,

Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says:

 

evaḿ prahlādasyāḿśena sādhana-siddhatvaḿ nitya-siddhatvaḿ ca nāradādivaj jñeyam.

 

There are two classes of devotees — the sādhana-siddha and the nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Nārada. Formerly, Nārada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sādhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says that Narada Muni is amongst the nitya-siddhas which conflicts with Bhaktivinodes version (according to Premaprayojana prabhu) that only the kaya-vyuha of Srimati Radharani are nitya-siddha.

Is it just me or is the contradiction obvious to others?

Mahak has made some very valid points that I have to admit are a step ahead of my thinking on the issue of the letters.

Many times letters address the specific confusion or quandry of a specific disciple.

In offering guidance on certain issues the spiritual master has the option to respond to different disciples differently.

In one letter he might say that his disciple should not read the books of the previous acharyas and then in a conversation with another disciple he might say no - I didn't say that.

Certain disciples have certain capacities or limitations.

Understanding the mindset and capacity of one disciple, the spiritual master might offer different instructions than he offers to another on the same issue.

So, really, it is just not scientific for all the letters of Srila Prabhupada to all of the disciples that got letters to be carved in stone as siddhanta for all disciples for all time.

The letters should not be made public domain for anybody and everybody to probe into possibly getting the wrong idea based upon instructions to specific disciples.

that is my opinion....

Otherwise, the letter reading and preaching campaign was never authorized by Srila Prabhupada and probably for good reason.

Tatastha refers to a specific shakti of the Lord - tatastha-shakti.

Tata means "bank" and stha means "to stand or take a position".

Tatastha is a description of an energy of the Lord because it is "taking it's position on the bank".

The Viraja River/Causal Ocean is the Tata that the jiva is taking his stha or position.

Because the Viraja is between the material and spiritual worlds it is like a bank of a river from where the jiva can either go to the material side or go to the spiritual side.

So, the jivas that are manifested by Maha-Vishnu are manifested by Maha-Vishnu's tatastha-shakti.

The material world is created in the Viraja.

We are in that Viraja, within the pradhana - the material causal principle.

So, we are in the Viraja right now (not Goloka) - we are of the tatastha-shakti the shakti manifested in the Viraja.

The jiva doesn't have tatastha-shakti.

He was manifested via Lord Vishnu's tatastha shakti.

The jiva is NOT the tatastha-shakti - but just a small particle speck of that tatastha-shakti of Lord Vishnu.

The Tata is the Viraja - a place like the bank of a river.

Because Maha-Vishnu manifests his shakti there it is called tatastha-shakti.

Jivas of that tatastha-shakti can go to either side - spiritual or material world depending upon the impetus and access.

The program to collect all the letters or Srila Prabhupada into a central database for everyone to read was not authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada said "read my books".

That is what he ordered.

The letter archive program is an ISKCON concoction that was never approved by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never authorized all of his disciples to nose around into all his personal letters to specific disciples.

To do so is unauthorized.

I see you have decided which of these media are pablum - and which real food. In other words you understand the guru's mind.

I have never seen a single instruction of Srila Prabhupada where he orders that we gather together all his personal letters to disciples and study them as if they are shastra.

Srila Prabhupada said "Everything I have to say I have said in my books".

So, it doesn't take much to understand the mind of Srila Prabhupada if you just listen to his instructions.

He never told any disciple to follow or study the letters he sent to other individual disciples.

This collecting of letters and making a database with which to try and extrapolate the siddhanta is an unauthorized program that Srila Prabhupada NEVER approved!

 

You can find solid food in the books of Srila Prabhupada, but his letters are mostly baby formula.

 

We can find the babies by looking at the food they like.

Tapes, lectures, videos, letters books all of which have timestamps and versions.

And there are enough apparent contradictions in these to foster all sorts of confusion and party rivalry - especially on the subject of guru-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada's teachings have baby formula for the babies and solid food for adolescents.

The babies will nurse on the pablum and the adolescents will eat the solid food.

But, baby forumula does not satisfy kids who are cutting their teeth on Gaudiya siddhanta.

They need solid food to chew on.

You can find solid food in the books of Srila Prabhupada, but his letters are mostly baby formula.

There comes a point when you prefer fried curd to infant formula.

If you want fried curd you can also find that in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

He tried to nourish all classes of men, but finding the solid food means passing over the baby formula which requires a little intelligence.

but, but.......Prabhupada said......!

Read the letters of Prabhupada.

Don't study the writings of Bhaktivinode.

Srila Prabhupada's letters to his misfit disciples are the highest siddhanta.

Don't you know that?

nice materials.

But, you can't really convice ISKCON types with these sources.

That is why I try to find the evidences in the books of Srila Prabhupada, otherwise these people will never accept.

Anyone that accepts Jaiva Dharma like this does not need convincing.

The ones that need the help are the ones that do not accept or study Jaiva Dharma.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109 purport

Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa's marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies.

Marginal means situated between the material and spiritual world.

That is the Viraja.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10 purport,

The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River, and beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation.

The jivatma is existing in the Viraja.

Even right now, our souls are situated in the Viraja and from there getting involved in maya - the karma created by false ego.

The Sanskrit terminology "tatastha" is properly defined in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

 

<!-- SQL query: select buch,st,en from tamil where buch=1 and (st regexp '[[:<:]]tatastha[[:>:]]') order by st --> <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> taTastha</td> <td valign="top">mfn. standing on a declivity or bank</td></tr></tbody></table>

So, in the actual definition of tatastha, we find that tatastha is a place like the bank of a river.

Sometimes the bank of the river is below water and other times it is above water.

So, tatastha is a realm where the jiva soul is taking his stand.

It is a dimension beyond time and space from where the soul is manifested by the Supersoul.

The Viraja (causal ocean) is the marginal realm between the material and spiritual worlds.

Lord Maha-Vishnu lies down in the marginal realm and begets the jivas.

That is why the jivas are known as marginal.

They were begotten by the energy of Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja - the marginal realm between the material and spiritual world.

The jivas of Goloka and Vaikuntha has nothing to do with marginal existence.

They have been accepted within the internal svarupa-shakti of the Lord.

As such, the marginal jiva, upon attaining the potent blessings of sandhini and hladini shakti is taken out of the marginal situation and taken into the internal world of Krishna.

Anyone that studies Mahaprabhu's teachings to his disciples should understand that tatastha/marginal means between the material and spiritual worlds.

The personal associates of Krishna in Goloka are not between.

They are IN the spiritual world and not in the marginal position.

But, I guess that many people cannot understand this because they refuse to accept higher instruction from the elder Gaudiyas of the sampradaya.

You may not like the word "back", or "return". Maybe you dont like "mam".

 

 

Maybe you shouldn't put words in the mouth of others or make denigrating insinuations out of anger or spite?

What I like is the raw siddhanta.

I don't feel like I have to be treated like an idiot who cannot accept the Bhagavad-gita or Srimad Bhagavatam as they are without a whole lot of psychological treatment along with it.

Devotees will become devotees and mayavadis will be mayavadis.

I don't see how the raw siddhanta itself has the potential to give the wrong impression or confuse me with any mayavada.

I never needed to be told that I came from Goloka to cherish the ideal or attaining to Goloka through devotional service.

Being told that I came out of the brahmajyoti to the material world does not hinder my acceptance of the Personality of Godhead, his personal abode and devotional service as the highest spiritual position.

Unlike some others, it is not hard for me to understand that finite jivas can evolve beyond the brahmajyoti to become personal servant of the Personality of Godhead.

It appears that there is a class of devotee that feel greatly unable to accept that the jiva comes out of the brahmajyoti of Krishna with the potential to attain spiritual bodies in the spiritual world.

Myself, it doesn't matter.

If I accept that my soul came out of the brahmajyoti of Krishna, that doesn't mean I cannot accept that beyond the brahmajyoti is a higher spiritual platform of devotional service.

Maybe others need the pablum fairytale of the fall-from-goloka for them to accept devotional service.

I don't.

Maybe that is why Srila Prabhupada preached the fairytale version because he knew that certain souls cannot otherwise easily accept Krishna consciousness?

But, I don't believe that the fairytale is really a solid fact of Gaudiya siddhanta.

It is a preaching device, a fable that helps certain types of conditioned souls to accept what they otherwise would not accept.

Myself, I don't need the fairytale to accept that Goloka is the highest spiritual existence.

In fact, the fall-from-goloka concept to me contradicts everything the shastra says about the nitya-siddhas, the protection of Krishna and the infallible status of the liberated devotees of Krishna.

So, ultimately, I can't accept that Srila Prabhupada really taught that.

I think he sort of encouraged some devotees to think like that because he thought it would be the only way they could accept and that when they mature they will understand the fairytale is just a fairytale and get over it.

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

 

 

You are a liar.

Tatastha shakti is two words and is not in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

 

<!-- SQL query: select buch,st,en from tamil where buch=1 and (st regexp '[[:<:]]Tatastha[[:>:]]') order by st --> <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> taTastha</td> <td valign="top">mfn. standing on a declivity or bank Naish. iii , 55 ; = %{-sthita} , Ma1latim. Naish. iii , 55 ; m. an indifferent person (neither friend nor foe) W. ; n. a property distinct from the nature of the body and yet that by which it is known , spiritual essence , Veda7ntak.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Krsna says, mam eva esyasi asamsaya: "Without any doubt, you will come to Me. You will go back to home, back to Godhead."

But, the quotation marks should only surround "Without any doubt, you will come to Me." The second part "You will go back to home, back to Godhead." is not a translation of mam eva esyasi asamsaya, rather a commentary on the statement by Srila Prabhupada.

mām — unto Me; eva — surely; eṣyasi — you will attain; asaḿśayaḥ — beyond a doubt.

There is nothing in these Sanskrit words about HOME or Godhead.

Krishna says "unto me surely you will attain beyond a doubt".

I realize my last post was off-topic, so I started another topic for it.

Sorry.

It came up when I was researching the verse that Theist has under discussion.

It wasn't anything planned.

I just saw something in the verse that stood out to me, so I diverted my topic to a different discussion of the verse.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.13

bhogena punyam kusalena papam

kalevaram kala-javena hitva

kirtim visuddham sura-loka-gitam

vitaya mam esyasi mukta-bandhah

SYNONYMS

bhogena -- by feelings of material happiness; punyam -- pious activities or their results; kusalena -- by acting piously (devotional service is the best of all pious activities); papam -- all kinds of reactions to impious activities; kalevaram -- the material body; kala-javena -- by the most powerful time factor; hitva -- giving up; kirtim -- reputation; visuddham -- transcendental or fully purified; sura-loka-gitam -- praised even in the heavenly planets; vitaya -- spreading all through the universe; mam -- unto Me; esyasi -- you will come back; mukta-bandhah -- being liberated from all bondage.

TRANSLATION

My dear Prahlada, while you are in this material world you will exhaust all the reactions of pious activity by feeling happiness, and by acting piously you will neutralize impious activity. Because of the powerful time factor, you will give up your body, but the glories of your activities will be sung in the upper planetary systems, and being fully freed from all bondage, you will return home, back to Godhead.

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This verse is a good example of the particular brand or bent of translation that Srila Prabhupada BHAKTIVEDANTA is famous for.

The verse says

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> mam -- unto Me; esyasi -- you will come back; </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Yet, Srila Prabhupada adds his familiar flair for translation by translating it as

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> you will return home, back to Godhead. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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There is no Sanskrit word for HOME in the verse.

In the verse, the Lord says "unto me you will come".

Specifically the word esyasi is used.

In this verse Srila Prabhupada says it means "you will come BACK", but in every other incident of the Vedabase search the word means:

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eṣyasi — you will attain; BG 8.7

eṣyasi — you will come; BG 9.34

eṣyasi — you will come; BG 18.65

eṣyasi — you will come; SB 11.29.41-44

eṣyasi — you will come; CC Madhya 22.57-58 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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So, most often the word does not mean "come back" but "you will attain" or "you will come".

So, this is a good example of where the "Back to Godhead" theme is used when actually there is NO such terms in the verse to actually mean "return HOME back to Godhead".

This shows the particular twist or bent that Srila Prabhupada employed in his preaching and his translating.

He inserts meanings and terms that are not actually strictly found in the original Sanskrit.

So, really, Srila Prabhupada didn't strictly TRANSLATE the books as much as he retold the verses in his own way according to how he thought was the best way to present this knowledge to the English speaking world.

Some devotees who have learned Sanskrit have "moved on" from the Bhaktivedanta purports for a more literal classical rendering of the texts without the particular flavor and flair of Srila Prabhupada.

I am not saying I have moved on, but I can see how the scholarly section of devotees might feel a need to directly go to the shastra, learn the language and study the texts directly without the particular psychology and preaching style of Srila Prabhupada.

TRANSLATION SB 7. ? (sorry forgot verse #)

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.13

 

bhogena punyam kusalena papam

kalevaram kala-javena hitva

kirtim visuddham sura-loka-gitam

vitaya mam esyasi mukta-bandhah

 

SYNONYMS

bhogena -- by feelings of material happiness; punyam -- pious activities or their results; kusalena -- by acting piously (devotional service is the best of all pious activities); papam -- all kinds of reactions to impious activities; kalevaram -- the material body; kala-javena -- by the most powerful time factor; hitva -- giving up; kirtim -- reputation; visuddham -- transcendental or fully purified; sura-loka-gitam -- praised even in the heavenly planets; vitaya -- spreading all through the universe; mam -- unto Me; esyasi -- you will come back; mukta-bandhah -- being liberated from all bondage.

 

Is this sleeper-vada???

yes...

Your a complete fool and idiot Begger-Guruvani, the anti-Vaishnava aparadhai's, stick this in your lar lar land pipe and smoke it Mr vardi-speculators-maya-vardis

OK Mr. Sleepervadi baby.

Unfit gurus are accepted by unfit disciples.

 

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

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Srila Prabhupada: Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107

New York, July 13, 1976

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. Nitya-siddha means they never fall a victim of maya. That is nitya-siddha. Even though they are within this material world, they are never victimized. That is called nitya-siddha. And one who is victimized, he is called nitya-baddha. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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The nitya-siddha never falls victim to maya.

You have fallen victim to maya.

You are not nitya-siddha.

You are nitya-baddha.