Guruvani

It makes me question the authenticity of any of these ideas in vaishnavism.

sounds to me like someone looking for an excuse to denigrate the Vaishnava theology based upon the conduct of some pseudo-Vaishnavas.

If you want an excuse to denigrate Vaishnavism, then there will be plenty of excuses you can find by holding Vaishnavism culpable for the derelict conduct of aspiring devotees who have yet to come up to the standard.

The author of this topic has titled the topic THE LETTER as if the letter is some sort of nail in the coffin of Sridhar Maharaja's followers and some sort of divine proclamation or munumental pronunciation that stands eternally as the damning of Srila Sridhar Maharaja by Srila Prabhupada.

THE LETTER is antiquated, outdated, post-dated by different instructions and borderline Vaishnava aparadha.

That is why Srila Prabhupada wanted to reconcile the situation with Srila Sridhar Maharaja before his passing and try to avoid exactly the kind of maniacal Vaishnava aparadha that has been keeping ISKCON in a stagnant pond of unholiness and sanctimonious Krishna consciousness since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

Personally, I think Srila Prabhupada should have verified himself with Srila Sridhar Maharaja the stories that Rupanuga was telling in his neophyte confusion before coming out to create such a stink based on the accounts of some American buffoon like Rupanuga.

I am sure Srila Prabhupada realized the risky situation he created with that letter and wanted to reconcile the situation before his passing to hopefully avoid the mess that many ISKCON neophytes have created using old, outdated and questionable letters and pronouncements of Srila Prabhupada.

I like his letters much better than forgeries by bold and ambitious disciples who made directives and got signatures affixed.

And flying pigs migrate to Michigan for the summer.

I just wonder if in 200 years from now the letters of Srila Prabhupada will have any relevance.

Eventually, time and tide will take the movement of Mahaprabhu so far beyond the letters of Srila Prabhupada that looking at them will be like reading the writings on the wall of a cave.

Many gurus will come and go in the next 200 years and eventually Srila Prabhupada will just be seen as one of the old acharyas whose time has passed.

No?

Can the ISKCON society maintain it's monopoly forever.

They lost it in 1977.

It's a free-for-all of Vaishnavism now and Srila Prabhupada is rapidly becoming a historical figure who was dated by the letters he wrote.

 

What Sridhar Maharaj did after he knows the truth?

 

Sridhar Maharaja divorced himself from any support of the ISKCON gurus.

That is why the ISKCON gurus turned on him and started the war with Sridhar Maharaja.

If Sridhar Maharaja was supporting the ISKCON gurus then why did they wage war against him for so many years?

Sridhar Maharaj is involved in this, why he didn't ask for a proof of this appointment? and after that what happened with the devotees who wanted to expulse all those bogus gurus? they couldn't thanks the advice of Sridhar Maharaj? am I wrong?

 

What Sridhar Maharaj did after he knows the truth?

 

thanks

 

***I would like to know the truth I am not discussing***

Here is a transcript of the event when Jayapataka Maharaja, Tamal Krishna Maharaja and some of the top ISKCON men came to see Sridhar Maharaja after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/gbc/78_ssm_gbc.html

Jayapataka Maharaja: Maharaja, when our Srila Prabhupada left, then he has given instruction that for initiating and for carrying on the sampradaya there would be eleven-in the beginning, he appointed eleven devotees, his disciples, to be initiating spiritual masters or to accept disciples and in the future that number would also be able to be increased. So we wanted to take your advice on some points as to various details of how these initiating spiritual masters should deal with certain questions. If we could ask questions to you then?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: yes, you may ask.

Jayapataka Maharaja: He has given explicit desires, but he told us that, on other technical points and other matters of philosophy, it there was question we should approach you. He said that during his...when he was very ill, he had appointed eleven ritviks and he said that after he disappears that these ritviks would continue as initiating spiritual masters and that they could be increased later, that would be decided by the GBC or Governing Body Commission.

 

As you can see, Jayapataka Maharaja lied to Sridhar Maharaja.

Jayapataka also confirms that Srila Prabhupada advised his disciples to take guidance on philosophy from Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

I trust the MATH in equal proportion.

You don't have enough understanding or information about THE MATH to be jumping to any conclusions.

You are making your judgement based on hearsay.

You are in NO position to pass judgement on the THE MATH as you have no first hand experience to corroborate your opinion.

You have jumped to conclusions based upon bad information from misinformed and misguided people.

I don't agree with `people who say that the disciple is not qualified to hear the truth so Sp gives him a fairytale o whatever you want to call it.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.65 purport,

those who are not interested in hearing directly about the activities of the Lord, or who cannot understand them, can very effectively hear such stories and fables as this one narrated by Nārada Muni.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada just didn't think his neophyte disciples were ready or willing to accept the more complex explanations of the shastra, so he told them something like a fairytale because they didn't appear eligible to accept the more complicated explanations in shastra.

Why Sridhar Maharaj defended the post 1977 bogus gbc gurus?

What proof do you have that he did?

Do you have evidence or are you just running on hearsay?

Please present your evidence that Sridhar Maharaja defended them.

He didn't defend them.

These men went to him and told him that Srila Prabhupada has appointed those 11 men to be acharyas, so Sridhar Maharaja tried to support them because they told him that Srila Prabhupada has appointed them to be successor acharyas.

They lied.

Sridhar Maharaja cannot be blamed for that.

He was simply trying to support what he was told was the final orders of Srila Prabhupada.

They should be smart enough to realize how your statement begs the question of 'higher authority' - you should apply to the GBC - there's no reason why you shouldn't get a guru gig.

so, I guess your program of being your own guru is the answer?

There are some who say that, because a certain person was asked to carry out the funeral rites of Srila Prabhupada, that person should obviously be the successor acharya.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja, on the other hand, never made any pretense, nor expressed any desire to become acharya of ISKCON (to my knowledge, as is always implicit).

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td>Bhaktivedanta Swami: Yes, and they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. My disciples are telling me that they will build a house for me. So, both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am travelling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

sounds to me like Srila Prabhupada wanted Srila Sridhar Maharaja to live in the same HOUSE as him in Mayapura.

that would be the house of the acharya.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. If you stay, then it will be helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one that I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

It appears that some so-called devotees could give a rat's ass about the EARNEST DESIRE of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

<embed style="margin-bottom: 4px;" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" flashvars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/E0005900" menu="false" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="13" width="10">ear·nest¹

 

 

 

<embed style="margin-bottom: 4px;" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" flashvars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/E0005900" menu="false" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="13" width="10"> (ûrnst)adj.1. Marked by or showing deep sincerity or seriousness: an earnest gesture of goodwill.

2. Of an important or weighty nature; grave. See Synonyms at serious.

 

 

I can show you conversations that contradict that.

 

not anything that post-dates the last meeting of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

all you can dig up is some old, outdated letters from the dustbin of history that have since been nullified.

those letters should have been buried along with the body of Srila Prabhupada.

they have no life anymore.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. If you stay, then it will be helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one that I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapur, then, all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami: Yes, that's right.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

Bhaktivedanta Swami: Yes, and they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. My disciples are telling me that they will build a house for me. So, both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am travelling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So, Maharaj, please, give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you. That Planetarium [The "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money -- the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world.

Ony *two* philosophies? That ought to make picking just one so very easy!!

 

Like nostrils.

There are only two.

Picking one of them is easy.

Picking both at the same time requires some skill.

What is your time line?

And what are your data points,

I already posted a very informative topic that shows that in 1977 Srila Prabhupada took some disciples and went to Srila Sridhar Maharaja's Math and reconciled the situation with Sridhar Maharaja.

Obviously, you don't pay attention.

It's obvious that you don't pay attention to the sequence of Srila Prabhupada's instruction and just randomly, willy-nilly jump around old letters in a very misguided search for truth.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/445028-srila-prabhupada-srila-sridhar-maharaja-relationship.html

you desperate thing you.

Desperate?

I don't depend on ISKCON or any institution for anything.

I am not desperate.

I am a neutral observer simply looking at the sitution impartially based upon facts.

I am not a party to any camp.

I live alone with my children like I have for the last 20 years.

I am partial only to the truth.

I have no camp other than that.

Recent? News flash. Prabhupada left the planet decades ago.

What is your time line?

And what are your data points, you desperate thing you.

Enter the smoke and mirrors.

When the truth is unacceptable - resort to the smokescreen.

Don't threaten me with spiritual ruin. Quoting the spiritual master from whatever source is apharada? LOL

There is no sequence problem with the quote I gave. It is a letter, not a conversation.

It is clear and stated with absolute authority. One could just as easily accuse you of apharada.

You are trying to follow an order that Srila Prabhupada negated by recent instructions.

In other words, it is as if the order never existed.

Neglecting the most recent instructions of Srila Prabhupada by claiming loyalty based on outdated instructions is the business of pseudo-disciples who don't pay proper attention to the actual instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

These people aren't following Srila Prabhupada.

They are following an agenda of personal gain in the name of ISKCON and offending thousands of Vaishnavas in the process.

Wow you have gift for rationalization.

One minute it's the date stamp the next minute it's an extemporaneous

essay on the temporary nature of the guru instruction.

I suspect if the letter justified association with Sridhara and company it would be clung to like an eternal edit from Krsna Himself.

To quote a line from "Amadeus" -- you do not persuade.

If you don't pay attention to the chronological sequence of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada you will become victim of Vaishnava aparadha and your spiritual life will be ruined.

If instructions have dates on them, then you have to adjust your thinking according to the timeline.

Letters are dated.

Ignoring the dates and timeline of instructions is a political ploy used by insincere people with a political agenda of selfish ambition.

Following these old letters by ignoring recent instructions is an offense to Srila Prabhupada.

That is not guru seva.

It is guru aparadha.

Most often such tactics are used by ambitious men in ISKCON who are protecting their positions or used by their disciples who cannot accept the fact that their guru is a neophyte who flagrantly commits Vaishnava aparadha for political reasons.

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, November 09, 1975

"Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated September 3, 1975 with the enclosed statement about Van Maharaja. So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY DEALINGS WITH THEM NOR EVEN CORRESPONDENCE, NOR SHOULD THEY GIVE THEM ANY OF MY BOOKS OR SHOULD THEY PURCHASE ANY OF THEIR BOOKS, NEITHER SHOULD YOU VISIT ANY OF THEIR TEMPLES. PLEASE AVOID THEM."

 

There are room conversations and tapes...one can pull that post date this. But letters take precedence right?

Those were temporary orders that do not hold up forever.

There is also a letter where Srila Prabhupada took away the authority of the GBC.

We could also use that to say that the GBC has been suspended.

Such orders of the acharya are liable for revision and correction.

The final orders of Srila Prabhupada revoked the ban on Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

You must be careful to follow the chronological sequence of the instructions of the acharya or you could end up committing serious offenses by not paying attention.

If you disregard recent instructions of Srila Prabhupada by dragging up old letters then you are in fact disobeying the spiritual master.

The shastra has very strict rules about offending Vaishnavas.

Srila Prabhupada took a great risk by making such statements.

Unfortunately, however, it appears that his followers did not keep up with his final wishes and as such a large section of devotees now think that Vaishnava aparadha is acceptable and quite ok.

It's not.

Now, these offenders of Vaishnavas who use the orders of Srila Prabhupada to offend Vaishnavas are making Srila Prabhupada culpable for such offenses that are the most harmful poison to the devotional creeeper.

These people would do better to try and protect Prabhupada from being liable for Vaishnava aparadha by being behaved and giving up their conduct of Vaishnava aparadha which is forbidden in shastra.

Letters of Srila Prabhupada are not eternal laws.

They sometimes contained emergency instructions that can only be valid during an emergency.

The attempt to make Vaishnava aparadha acceptable by quoting letters of Srila Prabhupada is only going to destroy the spiritual advancement of those who promote such offenses and give Srila Prabhupada a bad name that history will not forgive.

No acharya has the right to forbid a Vaishnava from respecting and honoring a senior Vaishnava.

These kinds of things violate the Vaishnava code of conduct.

This is not a topic.

Somebody is here to give a lecture.

Bad habit.

In other words he thinks he is better than us and needs to lecture to us.

this is a discussion forum not the big cushion in ISKCON.

I personally think that the mixing and mingling of the term nitya-siddha with sadhana-siddha and kripa-siddha is confusing.

I don't like when a sadhana-siddha is called nitya-siddha.

I prefer if sadhana-siddha is sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha is nitya-siddha.

I don't think that those who have fallen from the brahmajyoti and then attained perfection in devotional service should be lumped in with those eternal associates of Krishna who NEVER fell down or contacted the material energy but have been with Krishna eternally in perfection and eternally making spiritual advancement before the conditioned jivas ever heard of Krishna.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur was extremely uncoventional and controversial. It's clear that he was using a different definition of nitya siddha, same word with a different meaning.

Well, if the version of Bhaktivinode cannot be supported in any of the previous writings of the great Goswamis of Vrindavan, then I guess I would agree that his version is controversial.

I would guess that depending upon the context and level of discussion it could be said that in Goloka proper the nitya-siddha classification has a special meaning over and above the common Bhagavat siddhanta.

I would never say Bhaktivinode is wrong.

My thinking is that depending upon different relative levels of discussion the nitya-siddha classification can vary according to whether they are talking about internal associates in Goloka or liberated jivas coming up from the ranks of the conditioned souls.

I think that if we properly understand the context and the subject matter under discussion we can see how both Bhaktivinode and Chakravarti Thakur are both right in terms of the subject matter concerned.

Within Goloka, the nitya-siddhas apparently possess a certain level of perfection that sadhana-siddhas and mukta-jivas cannot be accredited with.

So, in that sense, within the madhurya-rasa the classification of nitya-siddha has a special meaning above the generic meaning applied to eternally perfected living beings coming from the conditioned souls of the tatastha-shakti.

The higher devotees understand that the original gopis of Goloka are nitya-siddha of a higher kind than those coming up through sadhana-siddhi or kripa-siddhi.

 

But burning in my heart is another reality

Book, letter or tape?

There is a link in my post to a lecture audio file that you can download and listen too.

Just .

http://krishna.org/audio/MP3/Festiva...ginal_Guru.mp3