Guruvani

Well I have heard that many ISKCON devotees (and maybe sanyassi) were consuming "mind expanding" foodstuffs in the 60s and 70s.

 

They can simply see things that we cannot!

Yep, I have seen musical notes coming out of stereo speakers.

I have seen all kinds of things.

I saw Jesus coming out of the clouds.

It was really cool man.

4 or 6 cylinder? LE or LX?

LX with the package.

Does that mean have have extra sukriti?

Who is so sukrti-van?

I have Chevy Astro van.

Do I qualify?

I know Sivarama Swami personally and have lived in close quarters with him for some time.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for Sripad Sivarama Swami.

I think his views and statements on the issue are practical, logical and well thought out.

Sivarama Swami is one of the few ISKCON Swamis that I hold in very high esteem.

If you don't know him personally, I would say be careful to judge.

In my experience he is one of the most sober and serious Vaishnavas I have ever known.

Yes and it can happen anywhere. Just because we have read about, "society consciousness vs. God consciousness" doesn't make such a society and it's members exempt from the same thing taking place. In fact the more kanisthas are concetrated, the risk of re-enforcing the kanistha mentality increases. To assert that because we have been given so much warning about this phenomena that it cannot happen to us is something like denying the possibility of someone "pretending" to sleep. And as we have heard, "it is even more difficult to wake someone who is pretending to sleep than someone who is actually sleeping." Another aphorism that is relevant here is, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" Sometimes an acarya is teaching by installments but sometimes knowledge may be withheld because it can be misused.

Myself, I am less than neophyte.

So, maybe that allows me a little objectivity because really I am not even a Hare Krishna devotee - just an outside observer who tries to sort out the facts out of my own curiousity.

Ritvik ritvik ritvik. Nice ring to it.

 

Hare Krsna

I used to support and promote the ritvik system, but having since realized that there are no moderate, rational and resonable leaders of the ritvik camps I have since divorced myself from the ritvik school.

The ISKCON GBC will certainly never revive or restore the ritvik system and since they were the only agency actually authorized to implement a ritvik system I have resigned from the ritvik agenda.

The ritvik system was not for anyone and everyone to practice.

It was specifally authorized for the GBC.

They don't follow it.

So, ritvik is dead and I am not in the business of trying to revive the dead anymore.

The damage is done.

It's too late to prevent what the ritvik system was supposed to prevent.

The genie is out of the bottle and there is no getting him back in at this time in history.

 

The reason such offensive and absurd theories are propagated by some of Prabhupada's disciples is because they feel threatened by success of other Vaishnava missions.

YES, that and a good helping of old fashioned envy and self-righteous arrogance.

They aren't happy to just follow their own faith and let others follow theirs.

They have to denigrate and insult anyone who doesn't believe exactly as they believe.

This is a common sympton of neophyte fanatics who have to make themselves fell all warm and fuzzy by denigrating anyone who doesn't to the dogma that has got them shackled to the neophyte stage without any hope for advancement.

If they were blissfully tasting the nectar of devotion they wouldn't have time for denigrating Vaishnavas who follow their own faith.

They are miserable losers whose only real pleasure is in insulting and denigrating others.

I suspect this is shanta rasa.

Every aspiring devotee of Krishna must start with santa-rasa.

You can't get a college degree unless you have a primary education.

Those who are not willing to accept that they start out in shanta-rasa and make progress based upon contact and connection with those bhaktas of the higher rasas are just not conversant with Gaudiya theology.

They want to jump to the highest platform from the lowest platform without going through the steps on the ladder of bhakti.

That would be wonderful to jump to that hostile conclusion so you in turn could yell apharada. I have done no such thing. I have just quoted Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada didn't give carte blanche permission for every Tom, Dick or Harry in the future to use a personal letter to a disciple to bash Srila Sridhar Maharaja or his Godbrothers.

It was a temporary restraining order that was nullified by the acts and statements of Srila Prabhupada in his last year on Earth.

Srila Prabhupada didn't issue that letter to be used as a baseball bat for wannabe Hare Krishna in the future to abuse and beat Srila Sridhar Maharaja and his followers.

To abuse it as such simply defames Srila Prabhupada and tarnishes his place in Gaudiya history.

This resurrecting of old letters about the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada for political purposes is a blemish on the glorious accomplishments of Srila Prabhupada and is a great disservice to Srila Prabhupada.

Actually, the so-called "apathy" is just a defensive posture. It seems clear that it's really *antipathy*.

Good point.

But, you are a college boy and I am am not.

I could have been more explitive in my evaluation of cbrahma, but I bit my tongue and tried to say something a little more civil.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

The only cooking going on here is that you are getting roasted.

You are being basted in your own juices of indifference and apathy towards a great Vaishnava.

And, as I have always said, J9 was a device of TKG.

That is a conspiracy theory that none of the senior ISKCON men and insiders who were actually there would ever agree with.

Let's avoid wild-eyed conspiracy theories and keep to facts that can be verified.

Even many of Tamal's enemies know better than to accuse him of that, because they were around to know better.

And I was told that on principle I can't possibly love Prabhupada because I don't have any feelings for a guru I don't even know, Sridara Maharaja.

Well, it appears from your writings and topics that you have great disrespect and disregard for Srila Sridhar Maharaja whom you don't even know.(according to you)

How can we blame you?

Srila Prabhupada made some strong statements about Sridhar Maharaja.

I see that he had made contradictory statements when actually in the presence of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

Anyway, my position has nothing to do with politics or ISKCON intrigue.

I developed faith and appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja after a very wonderful Godbrother gave me some tapes to hear.

I was very isolated and aloof from ISKCON politics at that time and my access to the statements and tapes of Srila Prabhupada didn't come till after I had fell in love with Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

So, that was the almighty's plan for me.

Apparently, his plan for you is different.

I just don't see the value or goodness in slamming the faith and feelings of other people who have learned to appreciate some of the great disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur other than Srila Prabhupada.

Why you insist to make propaganda against these great Vaishnavas and their meager followers is just not appreciated by me.

If you have some faith then follow that.

Why must you attack and vilify the faith and love of others who respect and admire great men who gave their lives to the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur?

I think you have overstepped your boundaries.

Like Srila Prabhupada said "I can criticize my Godbothers but you my disciples cannot"

So, why are you criticising?

Do you think that pleases Srila Prabhupada?

It doesn't.

It is your personal agenda.

It is not the wish of Srila Prabhupada that succeeding generations assault and vilify the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

Why is this realizaton of Srila Prabhupada's teachings upsetting you?

 

He who claims he has realized is the fool.

You haven't realized anything.

You are a conditioned soul who has realized NOTHING.

That doesn't address the statement that I don't have any feelings for Prabhupada previously made.

Well, I am not going to address the point because I am not the one who made the allegations.

I assume you have great respect and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada.

It appears though that you might be quite fanatic about it and minimizing other Vaishnavas because you think Srila Prabhupada is the only real Vaishnava.

When I heard the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja I had never heard any statements about Sridhar Maharaja one way or the other.

I was just a small-time brahmachary in the Chicago ISKCON temple.

By the time I had heard the statements of Srila Prabhupada about Sridhar Maharaja I had already developed an appreciation for Sridhar Maharaja and I just ignored whatever Srila Prabhupada said because my heart told me different.

I follow my heart.

I don't follow the mandates of anyone who trys to tell me who I can love and who I can't.

I reject that concept wholesale.

That's convoluted logic. It is not at all clear that Prabhupada insisted on his disciples seeking out Sridar Maharaja with all such affection. If it were there would be NO evidence against such a presupposition.

The guru can't mandate love of anyone or anything.

Those who admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja are the ones who gave him the respect to at least hear what he had to say.

They developed faith and admiration by hearing from him, not because they think Srila Prabhupada mandated it.

It's just stupid to think that anyone loves Srila Sridhar Maharaja because "Srila Prabhupada said".

 

What sort of devotee is Srila Sridhar Maharaj?

 

Srila Prabhupada said:

These references to the statements of Srila Prabhupada have no weight with those who have already made their minds up.

cBrahma started this topic THE LETTER thinking that he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Srila Prabhupada has damned and condemned Srila Sridhar Maharaja forever irrevocably.

Sound rebuttles to his presentation have no influence on him, because at this point his pride and ego are on the line and he doesn't appear to be willing to admit that he might be wrong.

I don't know what drives a person like him.

He bashes ISKCON, he bashes Sridhar Maharaja and all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and seems to present himself as puritanistic adherent to Srila Prabhupada.

Personally, I think he is just looking for an excuse to disrespect everyone and everything except his fantastic idea about Srila Prabhupada being the sole acharya and Vaishnava of the modern age.

I think he just wants an excuse to justify why he can't and won't humble himself before anyone except his make believe version of Srila Prabhupada - the Superman of bhakti.

If this is what he thinks Srila Prabhupada taught and stood for then he is miserably wrong, very foolish and self-deceived.

Iskcon is one branch of the tree.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission is another branch.

 

There are many other branches as well.

 

Live and let live.

ISKCON is one of these branches, and it should therefore be respected by all sincere devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

But, respect is a two way street.

How could Srila Prabhupada expect ISKCON to be respected by his Godbrothers if he taught his followers to disrespect his Godbrothers?

It just doesn't jive that Srila Prabhupada is demanding that his Godbrothers respect ISKCON and his disciples and at the same time is training his disciples in an offensive attitude towards the Godbrothers.

This is just one of the examples of how Srila Prabhupada was somewhat inigmatic in his words, leaving many lost souls in limbo with their mouth hanging open trying to sort it all out.

Almost none of us know anything about the "history" of the Math. All we know is rumours and innuendo.

But, if we pretend we know so much about Gaudiya Matha then we can abuse the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur and make a good excuse for our disrespectful attitude towards the real Vaishnavas while us pretenders play self-righteous and forthright.

Basically, what we have on a global scale with ISKCON and it's rejects is a crop of arrogant, bigoted upstarts who don't know near as much as they pretend to.

Mostly, what they know is just enough to get them in trouble and not enough to actually become the proper Vaishnava.

Prabhupada stated many times which I'm paraphrasing as -- Either you believe the Scientists who change their theory constantly or you try to have constant faith in the Vedic scriptures which do not change.

 

So, it is upto the individuals to decide which path they want to take...

But, Srila Prabhupada trusted the scientists every time he got on a jet airplane to fly over the Pacific Ocean or Atlantic Ocean.

In today's world if you don't put some trust and faith in science then you just have to go live in a cave and eat roots and berries.

Prabhupada was a chemist.

Is that not science?

Love of Krishna is hladini-shakti - the ecstatic potency of Krishna.

You get hladini-shakti by offenseless chanting of the Holy Name.

There is NO other way.

At the time Srila Prabhupada was addressing the issue, including his purport from the Srimad Bhagavatam, there were beings on this planet who could fly ships to the moon. He was not addressing them, he was addressing the bumbling fools in the US Govt and private sector team NASA who was claiming the thing.

 

NASA and the tin cans they were hurling up into the air did not qualify.

 

The official NASA footage and story was clearly and professionaly debunked via a video documentary showing factual evidence produced and distributed on the internet, saw it a little over a year ago back when I had high speed internet and could do such things.

 

Just another example of those in the know versus those in the slow.

 

Hare Krsna

It's a fact that the computing power of todays toys and games have thousands of times the computing power as the computers they used back during the Apollo mission.

The computers they had back then were less that what they make toys out of today.

But, I am not sure they didn't go to the Moon.

I have a cousin who was a top engineer with NASA during the Apollo missions.

He performed the final pre-flight inspection of the space capsule before launch.

If NASA didn't go to the Moon they did a good job of fooling hundreds of engineers that worked on the project.

Could be brahmana. Brahmanas are supposed to know what is brahman, spiritual.

What about "Goswami".

Master of the senses.

Infallible is not the right word. Incorruptible I think is better.

According to Prabhupada, the diksa guru is supposed to take one back to Godhead (sounds like one fell down from there BTW).

If he has not achieved brahma bhuta, if he still has material desires and a tendency to fall down, they why hold on to him?

That's why Prabhupada claimed that a diksa guru should be uttama adhikari, pure devotee.

I didn't see "diksha-guru" specifically mentioned in that quote.

I saw "spiritual master".

Isn't the siksha guru also a spiritual master?

Since when is only a diksha-guru a spiritual master?

By the way, what Sanskrit words translate as "spiritual master".

What is the Sanskrit words for "spiritual" and the Sanskrit word for "master".

I am just curious.

Does anybody have an answer?

Yeah well everything has it's limits also. Anybody remember the Children of God from thr late 60's and 70's. They were young mostly ex-hippy newly convert "Jesus Freaks" as they were called. They would go out and sing about the Lord and were very joyous.

 

Eventually though to get more converts they started using the young woman to attract men to their group. It reached the point to were they were actually having sex with them to get new converts.

 

I think it best if we keep faith that the Holy name is all-attractive in itself and if we broadcast suddha-nama that will be most potent.

Whatever.

Quite frankly I could give a damn about it one way or the other.

It doesn't affect me personally and I don't think it really harms of hinders the Movement of Mahaprabhu.

The topic and the issue is trivial.

I think that Bir Krishna Swami could find something more pressing and important to make an issue out of besides the dancing women.

If he thinks that the dancing women are the biggest problem the movement has to fix, then he is sadly mistaken.

I think it it ludicrous for him to be making an issue out of it when there are surely important issues facing the movement.