krsna Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur In the Siddhanta-ratnam, third ., texts 22, 23, 26 and 27, it is stated: “By displaying the pastime of worshiping His own form as Rudra, Lord Vishnu taught the worship of Rudra not to His own sincere devotees but to the insincere living entities who desire religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and liberation. The Lord Himself has confirmed this fact when He spoke in the Narayaniya to Arjuna as follows: ‘O Arjuna, I am the soul of the universe. My worship of Rudra is worship of My own self. Whatever I do, common people follow. Examples set by Me should be followed. That is why I worship Rudra. Vishnu does not offer obeisances to any demigod. I worship Rudra, considering him to be My own self. I am the indwelling supersoul of the entire universe. Rudra is My own part, just as a hot iron rod is non-different from fire. I have set the standard that the demigods headed by Rudra should be worshiped. If I did not set the example of worshiping Rudra then people would not follow that standard. Therefore I teach the worship of My servants through My personal behavior. There is no one greater than or equal to Me. Therefore, since I am the greatest, I do not worship anyone. But since Rudra is My part I display the example of worshiping Rudra and other demigods to teach ordinary people. In this connection, Brahma told Rudra that Vishnu alone is the supersoul of everyone including Brahma and Rudra. He said, ‘Lord Vishnu is the supersoul of me as well as of you and all other embodied living entities. No one can restrict Him within the confines of their mundane knowledge. If simply because Sri Ramachandra displayed the pastime of worshiping Lord Shiva to teach the worship of that great vaisnava, Shiva should be considered the Supreme Lord and Ramachandra his subordinate, then since Sri Ramachandra worshiped the ocean, the ocean should also be considered the Supreme Lord. It should be understood that whenever the associates of the Supreme Lord have enacted the pastime of worshiping the demigods, their purpose was to teach the worship of the demigods, who are subordinate to Vishnu. It is the pastime of the Lord’s associates to teach, “All demigods are subordinate to Vishnu.” Their worship of the demigods should never be accepted as the ultimate conclusion. Lord Vishnu is certainly the controller of everyone. His activity of maintaining the universe, like Brahma’s activity of creation and Rudra’s activity of annihilation, and His interaction with the demigods is just like a king’s interaction with thieves. Actually, Brahma and Rudra create and annihilate only after being empowered by Vishnu. Therefore Lord Vishnu is certainly eternally worshipable by all the demigods headed by Brahma and Rudra.” — Purport to Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, antya 2.399 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada. Translated by Bhumipati Das and Pundarika Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 There is a famous Deity of Hari-Hara found in Godrumadwip in Navadwip Dham. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Also the Lingaraj deity in Sri Bhubaneswar Dhama is considered a manifestation of Hari-Hara. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Krsna, You have quoted from scriptures to prove that Lord Visnu is supreme. But how do you explain the following? 1. In Mahabharata, Bhisma says that Krsna became so powerful with the grace of Lord Siva. 2. Krsna worshipped Siva to grant him a son. 3. When Lord Visnu and Lord Brahma were arguing over who was supreme, then Lord Siva appears in the form of a pillar. Later both Visnu and Brahma accepts Siva as supreme. 4. Rama prays to Siva to help Rama win in war against Ravana. One story is that he cut off BrahmA's head and had to beg Lord Vishnu's help in getting rid of Brahma-hatyA Dosham (the sin of killing a Brahmin). Where is this story written? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Krsna,You have quoted from scriptures to prove that Lord Visnu is supreme. But how do you explain the following? 1. In Mahabharata, Bhisma says that Krsna became so powerful with the grace of Lord Siva. 2. Krsna worshipped Siva to grant him a son. 3. When Lord Visnu and Lord Brahma were arguing over who was supreme, then Lord Siva appears in the form of a pillar. Later both Visnu and Brahma accepts Siva as supreme. 4. Rama prays to Siva to help Rama win in war against Ravana. Where is this story written? In Siva Gita, Lord Siva is praying and offering prayers. Who is he praying to? Himself? If you know anything about the Siva Gita you will find he is offering prayers. Rama did worship Siva. The Gopis worshiped Siva and Durga. But, Rama worshiped Siva as being a great devotee of the Lord, not as being Supreme above Sankarshan or Vishnu. Study the prayers of Siva in Padma Purana and Bhagavat Purana etc. and you will find Siva is offering prayers to his ishta Devata - not unto himself. Mahaprabhu worshiped Hanuman. Did he worship him as god or as a great devotee? Same thing if Rama worships Siva. In the Puranas Siva is always praying to Lord Pradyumna, Lord Sankarshan or some other from of Vishna. Read this chapter of Bhagavat Purana and hear how Lord Siva prays unto the Lord. http://bvml.org/books/SB/04/24.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Our previous Gaudiya acaryas have pointed out that amongst one of the several philosophical principles that were extremely difficult for jivas, even advanced devotees and sages, to understand was the tattva and position of Lord Siva. The two primary manifestations of Bhagavan Sankara according to our sampradaya are Sadasiva and Sambhu. From Them are expanded the eleven Rudras and other amsas of Mahadeva. Lord Sambhu, in particular, represents the glance of love that Maha-Visnu casts over the mahat-tattva when He wants to bring about the creation of the material cosmos. Together with His wife Mahamaya/Durga Devi, Lord Sambhu oversees the material universe in a very complicated way which is definitely impossible for our tiny brains to grasp. One of the many functions of the divine couple Siva/Sakti is to direct the process of procreation, or in other words, the populating of the creation. Lord Brahma's duties as demi-urge or universal engineer come under a lower category than that which encapsulates the roles of Maha-Visnu and Siva/Durga, who represent the higher, more causal reasons behind the manifest world's existence. As such, Maha-Visnu and Sadasiva/Sambhu share a very close and special relationship, and in Caitanya-lila, they were present together in one body as Sri Advaita Prabhu, who actually caused Lord Gauranga to descend on earth though his prayers. If we therefore want to remain faithful to the message of Mahaprabhu and continue His movement in a spiritually vital manner, we should definitely hold Lord Siva in the highest regard. As I mentioned in a previous post on another thread, Siva deities and lingas are present almost everywhere in Vrndavana and Navadvipa. In fact, no complete pilgrimage to these two topmost of dhamas is possible without paying adequate obeisances to the unlimited glorious Mahadeva. Any Vaisnava who thinks or does otherwise is really no Vaisnava at all, but is merely making a show of devotion, and has not moved an inch forward on his spiritual path. Om Namah Sivaya Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 In Siva Gita, Lord Siva is praying and offering prayers.Who is he praying to? Himself? When did I say that Siva prays to Himself? But, Rama worshiped Siva as being a great devotee of the Lord, not as being Supreme above Sankarshan or Vishnu. Where is it written in the scriptures that Rama worshipped Siva as being a great devotee of the Lord? Study the prayers of Siva in Padma Purana and Bhagavat Purana etc. and you will find Siva is offering prayers to his ishta Devata - not unto himself. What about Siva puran? Mahaprabhu worshiped Hanuman.Did he worship him as god or as a great devotee? Same thing if Rama worships Siva. There is a difference here. In prayers to Hanuman, Hanuman is mentioned as devotee of Rama. But, in prayers of Siva by Rama, where is it written that Siva is mentioned as a great devotee? In the Puranas Siva is always praying to Lord Pradyumna, Lord Sankarshan or some other from of Vishna. Again, what about Siva puran? What about Bhisma's statement in Mahabharata in which he says that Krsna became great by the mercy of Siva? What about Krsna praying to Siva for a son? Read this chapter of Bhagavat Purana and hear how Lord Siva prays unto the Lord. http://bvml.org/books/SB/04/24.html I have read entire Bhagavat purana several times. I accept that in Bhagavat purana, Siva prays to one or another form of Visnu. But what about the verses in the scriptures where Visnu prays to Siva? One clarification. Since I have posted that Visnu is mentioned as worshipping Siva in some places in scriptures, you may be thinking I consider it as proof that Siva is greater than Visnu. But I have no such intention. If somebody claims Siva as greater than Visnu, then I will ask him to explain Siva praying to Visnu. In some places, Siva is shown greater than Visnu. In some places, Visnu is shown greater than Siva. I want to know how you reconsile the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 When did I say that Siva prays to Himself? Where is it written in the scriptures that Rama worshipped Siva as being a great devotee of the Lord? What about Siva puran? There is a difference here. In prayers to Hanuman, Hanuman is mentioned as devotee of Rama. But, in prayers of Siva by Rama, where is it written that Siva is mentioned as a great devotee? Again, what about Siva puran? What about Bhisma's statement in Mahabharata in which he says that Krsna became great by the mercy of Siva? What about Krsna praying to Siva for a son? I have read entire Bhagavat purana several times. I accept that in Bhagavat purana, Siva prays to one or another form of Visnu. But what about the verses in the scriptures where Visnu prays to Siva? One clarification. Since I have posted that Visnu is mentioned as worshipping Siva in some places in scriptures, you may be thinking I consider it as proof that Siva is greater than Visnu. But I have no such intention. If somebody claims Siva as greater than Visnu, then I will ask him to explain Siva praying to Visnu. In some places, Siva is shown greater than Visnu. In some places, Visnu is shown greater than Siva. I want to know how you reconsile the two. Siva Samhita was spoken by Romaharsana - the student of Vyasadeva. Of course the devotees of Siva are going to portray him as supreme. I don't have access to any genuine translation of Siva Samhita, so I cannot really read and judge for myself what it says. As well, any translation of Siva Samhita would have to be done by expert and qualified spiritual master. Gaudiyas follow the conclusions of Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu promoted Srimad Bhagavat as the topmost Purana. In Bhagavat Purana we find prayers of Siva worshiping his Lord and God Sri Vishnu. So, the Gaudiyas are not going to necessarily accept conclusions that have not been endorsed by Mahaprabhu. The realm of Lord Shambu is his planet that is situated in the Viraja or the marginal plane that is between the Vaikuntha world and the Maha-tattva. So, the planet of Lord Siva is not actually in the Vaikuntha realm. It is lower than that in Viraja - the realm situated not in the Mahat-tattva and not in the Vaikuntha sky. So, Siva cannot be supreme because the shastra describes Vaikuntha as even beyond the Viraja. Viraja is the buffer zone between the material world and the spiritual world. so, Sivaloka is not part of the spiritual sky of Vaikuntha where Narayana is God. More important than what is spoken about Siva in some Purana is what do we find Siva himself saying and how is he praying where we find him in the topmost Purana as told my Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanya? Siva devotees can exaggerate about Siva, so we cannot truly depend on them. We must trace out the prayers and the teachings of Siva we find in shastra and then we can know what Siva himself is saying, not what his devotess are saying about him. So, Gaudiyas accept the Bhagavat Purana as the topmost Purana according to Mahaprabhu and the Gaudiyas are going accept Siva for how he is portrayed and how he prays and teaches in the Bhagavat Purana. Many Puranas deal with compromise religions and the gunas of raja and tama. So, in many other Puranas we can find so many things for worhsip of many demigods including Siva. But Sri Chaitanyadeva has given Bhagavat Purana as the topmost spotless Purana and so the Gaudiyas are going to get their knowledge of Siva as it comes from Bhagavat Purana. Padma Purana also has prayers of Siva and he prays to Supreme Lord Vishnu. So, the Siva Purana is not fairly objective and deals with stories about Siva and not so much as his teachings as we find him teaching the Pracetas in Bhagavat Purana and teaching them about supremecy of Vishnu and how to pray to Lord Vishnu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahak Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Haribol. Appreciation for the post by Vikram Ramsundar concerning how Lord Siva cannot be understood, period. There has always been the controversy amongst hare krishna devotees about the divinity of Lord Siva, is he the Supreme Lord or not. The answer is, of course, yes, and can be proved in the form of Sri Adwaita Acarya. He has incarnated to take part in Lord Chaitanyas Samkirtana Movement, and is considered both a manifestation of Maha Visnu and Lord Siva, according to the purports of Chaitanya Charitamrta. Lord Siva, unlike Lord Brahma (*an exception exists here as well, as described below), is not jiva tattwa, rather a unique tattwa unto only Himself. Therefore, when we try to conceive the inconceivable, these discussions exist, with terms like "cool dude", "bro", as well as false notions that he is merely an advanced person, a patron saint for ghosts, dope smokers, rasta-hipsters, etc. The fact is, Lord Siva is there as an object of our meditation. His devotees see him as all in all, Vaisnavas see him in transcendental relationship with Lord Krsna in various incarnations, and he is pleased to receive these meditations, never misuses them or offends the object of his own meditations, etc. The discussion of whom Lord Siva Prays to is not unlike the teaching of Sri Gurudeva that Sri Gurudeva is worshipped as the supreme Lord as his empowered representative. The worship placed at the feet of Lord Siva as well as the Spiritual Master is never wasted because of the perfection of the recipient and the proper utilization of such worship. Hare Krsna, Om Sivaya Namah, ys, mahaksadasa * Note: Sometimes, when there is no one qualified to occupy the post of Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu Himself assumes the role of Brahma to act as creator. In such a unique circumstance, Lord Brahma can be assumed to be in the Visnu-tattwa catagory. As described in another topic, Lord Brahma has a position that can be attained by the perfected jiva. Lord Sivas position is unattainable. Srila Prabhupada once explained (it may be written somewhere, I dont remember) that the Jiva up to Lord Brahma has 78% divine qualities. Lord Siva has 84%, Lord Narayana 92%, Lord Rama and other Lila Avatars and the forms of Lord Sesabalarama 96%, and Lord Krsna, in gokula forms such as Govinda, Gopala, Syamasundara, and the form of Lord Chaitanya who plays the role of devotee absorbed in gokula pastimes, 100%. These percentages are based on the qualities of Krsna described in Nectar of Devotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Haribol. Appreciation for the post by Vikram Ramsundar concerning how Lord Siva cannot be understood, period. I am not so sure we can say that. We can understand Siva quite properly in the Bhagavat and in how the great Vaishnava acharyas have described him. We cannot understand Siva by speculating. We can understand as much about Siva as we are told in the shastra and the theology of the Bhagavat. One thing that Srila Prabhupada points out in his books is that most often Siva is portrayed as being white, but Srila Prabhupada points out in the Bhagavat purport the verse that describes Lord Siva as golden colored, I guess much like Mahaprabhu. So, the Shaivities might not accept that, but in the Bhagavat Lord Siva is described as being of a golden color, not white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta, which goes a step further than the Srimad Bhagavatam in the description and gradation of different types of Bhakti, Srila Sanatana Gosvamipada describes Lord Siva as white-complexioned, and this statement can be backed by several other references from various scriptures, both ancient and medieval. I cannot speak for others, but for me, it is based on such direct sastric evidence and traditional understanding that Bhaktivedanta purports have to be understood. Actually, this reminds me of one of HDG's Bhagavad-gita purports wherein he mentions an incident from the Mahabharata and says that Arjuna defeated Lord Siva and thereby pleased the Lord, who then blessed him with the Pasupata-astra, a very powerful celestial weapon. In order to understand this piece from HDG, we need to see through this narration to get to the basic point that he was trying to make, and it should also be borne in mind that his main audience at the time was a group of recent mleccha converts, who knew almost nothing about Sanatana Dharma, and thus Prabhupada had to paint nearly everything in black-and-white. This approach would be the intelligent way to go about it, because a literal acceptance simply runs counter to what the Mahabharata itself says, as everybody knows full well that it was Lord Siva who easily overpowered Arjuna, not the other way round. There are definite statements from more than one Gaudiya acarya about the extreme complexity of Siva-tattva, and in recent times, I believe that Pujyapada Srila Sridhara Maharaja also pointed this out, even though I ignore exactly where this statement of his can be located. Maybe somebody more knowleadgeable than myself could help in this regard. I prefer to follow Mahaprabhu's own example and show proper regard for Lord Siva as well as all other Devas and Devis (incidentally I do not like the term "demigod" since I find it an unsatisfactory rendition of the Sanskrit word Devata). The point is that Mahaprabhu's most important instructions to us are his Siksastaka, and amongst these eight divine injunctions, we have the famous trnad api sunicena verse. In order to fully abide by the Supreme Lord's words, this surely means viewing His exalted associates in charge of the cosmos with equal reverence and respect. Let those with the capacity to comprehend this fact understand. The attitude evinced by some taking part in this discussion is primarily what caused me to stop associating with many ISKCON members in the first place; I found them rude, ignorant and totally lacking in regard for others who do not toe their line of thinking. Luckily, in most Gaudiya Mathas, this neophyte mentality is present to a far smaller extent, although fundamentalism does rear its ugly head every now and then even here. For my part, I prefer to spend my time and energy trying to get closer to Krsna rather than indulge in pointless hair-splitting. Those needing to defeat others so as to feel secure in their own belief systems have got a problem more with themselves than anybody else. My pranams to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 From Sriman Mahak spot on: "The fact is, Lord Siva is there as an object of our meditation. His devotees see him as all in all, Vaisnavas see him in transcendental relationship with Lord Krsna in various incarnations, and he is pleased to receive these meditations, never misuses them or offends the object of his own meditations, etc. The discussion of whom Lord Siva Prays to is not unlike the teaching of Sri Gurudeva that Sri Gurudeva is worshipped as the supreme Lord as his empowered representative. The worship placed at the feet of Lord Siva as well as the Spiritual Master is never wasted because of the perfection of the recipient and the proper utilization of such worship.":pray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 Spot on, Krsna Prabhu. This post of yours sure does look like it is coming down from Krsnaloka. Hari Bol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 He was walking to the east, one side of his hat was black, the other was red. To those who lived to the north, it was the man with the red hat, to those who lived in the south, he was the man with the black hat. Same man, same hat. The whole responsibility for identification of the person falls to those who reside in the north or the south. Only those who know the man will avoid the winds of war brewing on the issue in the neighborhood. hare krsna, om sivaya namah, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radhagovind Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 is shiva a deevote or a supreme god as shown by shiv mahapurana? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 he is shown as worshipping shiva, i thought he said he was supreme and above everyone. and why do each puran represent one god to be supreme? We hear these kinds of wild claims in the forum quite regularly, but what we don't see is any proper references from shastra to support such wild claims. In India there are millions of sects and cults that have all sorts of varied beliefs that they were brought up with or that they learn from some guru. Everybody can't be right. Somebody has to be wrong. The Siva Purana was written by Romaharshana, a student of Vyasadeva. So, knowing that, wouldn't it be prudent to in turn research the shastra that Vyasadeva himself wrote? Srimad Bhagavat was written by Vyasadeva. Siva Purana was written by Romaharshana who was at one time a student of Vyasadev. In Vedic tradition Vyasadeva is said to be the incarnation of the Lord. The texts of Vyasadeva stand as the topmost authoritative writings. Vyasadeva wrote Srimad Bhagavat as his final commentary on Vedanta sutra. Therefore, Srimad Bhagavat stands as topmost of all the Puranas, because it has eliminated all cheating religious systems and propounded the highest truth and the essence of the Vedic knowledge. So, Siva Purana is not the topmost Purana. According to Vyasadeva himself, the Bhagavat Purana is the spotless Purana that has eliminated any and all cheating processes of religion that can be found in some of the other Puranas. So, in Vaishnava thought, Srimad Bhagavat is the topmost authority on siddhanta and the Vedic conclusions. Siva Purana was compiled by Romaharshana. In Bhagavat Purana this Romaharshana was killed by Lord Balaram for being falsely proud of his prestige as a rishi. So, the Vaishnava does not put so much credibility on certain Puranas that were not compiled by Vyasadev. Vaishnavas accept the conclusion of Vyasadeva that Srimad Bhagavat and it's conclusions are the essence of Vedanta. Siva Purana does not enjoy that kind of distinction amongst the Puranas. Vaishnavas do not follow the Siva Purana of Romaharshana, nor do they accept it's attempts to promote Lord Siva as being supreme above Krishna or Vishnu. Lord Balarama killed this Romaharshana with a blade of grass while he was sitting on the elevated seat in an assembly of sages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 We hear these kinds of wild claims in the forum quite regularly, but what we don't see is any proper references from shastra to support such wild claims. People do give references from shastra e.g. Siva Puran though it is a different matter that you do not consider this puran as authetic. The Siva Purana was written by Romaharshana, a student of Vyasadeva.So, knowing that, wouldn't it be prudent to in turn research the shastra that Vyasadeva himself wrote? Romaharshana explained this purana to sages. Going by your logic, Bhagavatam was written by Suta swami (son of Romaharsana). According to Vyasadeva himself, the Bhagavat Purana is the spotless Purana that has eliminated any and all cheating processes of religion that can be found in some of the other Puranas. I agree Vyasdeva calls Bhagavat Purana as spotless but he nowhere says that there are cheating processes in other puranas. Inside Bhavatam, it is written that Bhagavatam is spotless. Inside Siva Purana, it is written that Siva Purana is spotless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 I agree Vyasdeva calls Bhagavat Purana as spotless but he nowhere says that there are cheating processes in other puranas. Inside Bhavatam, it is written that Bhagavatam is spotless. Inside Siva Purana, it is written that Siva Purana is spotless. No, it was Sri Chaitanyadeva who said that Bhagavat Purana was spotless. Siva Purana is about cheating religion. Worshiping Shiva is mosty a cheating religion because worshiping Shiva is done for material benedictions. Worshipers of Shiva are not seeking love of God, but they are seeking, wealth, prosperity or some mystic siddhi. So, worship of Shiva is a cheating religion because it does not aim at love of God and the highest ecstacy of prema. We see always that people go to the Shiva temple to pray and ask for material things. This is a cheating religion. The Bhagavat Purana and the Vaishnava religion is not about material blessings, wealth, fame or mystic siddhi. You don't find that in the Shiva worship. It's about about material benedictions. Kaitava Dharma. There is no eternal salvation in worship of Shiva. Worship of Shiva is for temporary material things. Even the Mukti one gets from Shiva worship is not nitya. Again they fall down from that mukti because they have no service to the eternal Lord Vishnu. The wife of Shiva is Durgadevi, she is Goddess of material world. The wife of Vishnu is Laxsmi, she is Goddess of spiritual world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 Worshiping Shiva is mosty a cheating religion because worshiping Shiva is done for material benedictions.Worshipers of Shiva are not seeking love of God, but they are seeking, wealth, prosperity or some mystic siddhi. So, worship of Shiva is a cheating religion because it does not aim at love of God and the highest ecstacy of prema. The same usual boring HK rant. I hope someday you realize how stupid you sound by spitting the classic HK holier-than-thou venom on other beliefs. As someone said you have commited serious Shaiva aparadha and are going to hell. Om Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 The same usual boring HK rant. I hope someday you realize how stupid you sound by spitting the classic HK holier-than-thou venom on other beliefs. As someone said you have commited serious Shaiva aparadha and are going to hell. Om Thats typical rant from a sentimental Shaiva who is in fact ignorant about the essence of Vedanta. It's obvious your are ignorant of Vedic siddhanta and are stuck in a sentimental religious faith meant for meterial gain that is actually against Sanatan Dharma. People like you can't be reasoned with because you don't accept any Vedic authority except a couple of Shaiva books that can't stand up against the conclusions of Mahabharata, Ramayana, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavat and the suddha-sattva Vaishnava siddhanta. The compiler of the Vedas, Vyasadeva and his son Sukadeva Goswami have made it clear that Krishna and Vishnu are supreme above all other Gods including Lord Siva. The idea that Shiva is supreme above Vishnu or Krishna is false. This conclusion is the sentimental belief of Shaivas, but it cannot be established as an objective fact on the basis of proper Vedic authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 There are eighteen main Puranas and an equal number of subsidiary Puranas or Upa-Puranas. The main Puranas are: Vishnu Purana, Naradiya Purana, Srimad Bhagavata Purana, Garuda (Suparna) Purana, Padma Purana, Varaha Purana, Brahma Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Markandeya Purana, Bhavishya Purana, Vamana Purana, Matsya Purana, Kurma Purana, Linga Purana, Siva Purana, Skanda Purana and Agni Purana. Of these, six are Sattvic Puranas and glorify Vishnu; six are Rajasic and glorify Brahma; six are Tamasic and they glorify Siva. Neophytes or beginners in the spiritual path are puzzled when they go through Siva Purana and Vishnu Purana. In Siva Purana, Lord Siva is highly eulogised and an inferior position is given to Lord Vishnu. Sometimes Vishnu is belittled. In Vishnu Purana, Lord Hari is highly eulogised and an inferior status is given to Lord Siva. Sometimes Lord Siva is belittled. This is only to increase the faith of the devotees in their particular Ishta-Devata. Lord Siva and Lord Vishnu are one. Teachings of Swami Shivananda: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 The best among the Puranas are the Srimad Bhagavata and the Vishnu Purana. The most popular is the Srimad Bhagavata Purana. Next comes Vishnu Purana. A portion of the Markandeya Purana is well known to all Hindus as Chandi, or Devimahatmya. Worship of God as the Divine Mother is its theme. Chandi is read widely by the Hindus on sacred days and Navaratri (Durga Puja) days Teachings of Swami Sivananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 It's obvious your are ignorant of Vedic siddhanta and are stuck in a sentimental religious faith meant for meterial gain that is actually against Sanatan Dharma. As a Hare Krishna you are the one who has no idea what Sanatana Dharma is. In fact, you have no knowledge of anything outside the Hare Krishna realm just like your founder. People like you can't be reasoned with because you don't accept any Vedic authority except a couple of Shaiva books that can't stand up against the conclusions of Mahabharata, Ramayana, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavat and the suddha-sattva Vaishnava siddhanta. Completely untrue as are most things that come out of your keyboard. The dominant Vedanta school has firmly established for over a thousand years that the ultimate conclusion of the Veda is the reality of single, formless, Brahman. The two subsequent schools of Vedanta have miserably failed in their attempts to oust Advaita and found very limited success in certain pockets only. Though they may sing their own praises highly within their own groups, their limitations are well known to anyone who has basic knowledge of Indian religion. The Hare Krishnas lack basic knowledge of Indian religion and do not qualify. The conclusion of the Vedas as accepted by the majority of Vedanta followers is that forms are not permanent. We do not differentiate between different forms and see no difference between Shiva, Vishnu and Chandi. People can choose to worship any form of their choice and will ultimately arrive at the same reality. Now we realize this is too overwhelming for the simple Hare Krishna brain. We also know that you will - after several lifetimes - grow worthy enough to understand more sophisticated, broader and closer to the truth religious beliefs such as Advaita. Until then, continue chanting and try not to accumulate sin by hurling expletives at other beliefs. It will fetch you nothing except slow you down by a few more lifetimes. Om Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 As a Hare Krishna you are the one who has no idea what Sanatana Dharma is. In fact, you have no knowledge of anything outside the Hare Krishna realm just like your founder. Completely untrue as are most things that come out of your keyboard. The dominant Vedanta school has firmly established for over a thousand years that the ultimate conclusion of the Veda is the reality of single, formless, Brahman. Om Your impersonal conception of Brahman is not the only conception of Brahman. The Vaishnava acharyas have shown that Brahman indicates Krishna and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti. Your impersonal Brahman mukti is considered as a Hell by the Vaishnavas. If you want to go to hell, then that is your choice. Vaishnavas aspire for the eternal varigatedness of the Spiritual planets of Vaikuntha and Goloka. If your religious aspiration is to become a spark of light in the Brahman, then that is your choice. Vaishnavas get eternal, blissfull spiritual bodies in the Vaikuntha world. The Mayavadi impersonalists aspire to lose their individual identity into the oneness of Brahman. Choose you path and be happy with that, but don't expect that the Vaishnavas are going to appreciate your ambitions to merge into eternal hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 Siva Purana is about cheating religion. May be you are right. But what basis shastric do you have for making such a claim? Worshiping Shiva is mosty a cheating religion because worshiping Shiva is done for material benedictions.Worshipers of Shiva are not seeking love of God, but they are seeking, wealth, prosperity or some mystic siddhi. As per Siva purana, worshipping Siva can be done for liberation also. You do not believe in Siva purana. But you have not told why. Saying that it was spoken by Romaharshana is not good enough. That way Bhagavata was spoken by Romaharshana's son to Saunak and other sages. We see always that people go to the Shiva temple to pray and ask for material things. Yes, they do. But I have found many people worshipping Krsna also for material things. The Bhagavat Purana and the Vaishnava religion is not about material blessings, wealth, fame or mystic siddhi. I have come across many Vaishnavas who pray in front of Krsna's statue and saying, "Krsna, give me this, give me that." There is no eternal salvation in worship of Shiva. There is eternal salvation in worship of Shiva as per Shiva purana. Let me know the proof that this purana is not authentic. Even the Mukti one gets from Shiva worship is not nitya.Again they fall down from that mukti because they have no service to the eternal Lord Vishnu. Shastric basis for such a claim? The wife of Shiva is Durgadevi, she is Goddess of material world.The wife of Vishnu is Laxsmi, she is Goddess of spiritual world. As per Shiva purana, Uma is the Goddess of spiritual world. Note:- Let me repeat a clarification here. I am not trying to prove that Shstras prove Shiva to be greater than Vishnu. I have not such intention. If somebody quotes from Shiva purana to show that Shiva is shown as greater than Vishnu, then I will quote from Bhagavatam, Vishnu Purana etc. in which Vishnu is shown greater. I am just trying to discuss logically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 How Vaishnavas worship Lord Shiva by Nirguna dasi Vaishnavas and Vrajavasis celebrate by seeking Lord Shiva's blessings and worship him in his form as a gopi at the ancient temple of Gopishwara in Vrindavan. "It is said, vaishnavanam yatha sambhu: Lord Shiva is the best of devotees of Lord Krishna. In Vrindavan there is Lord Shiva's temple called Gopishwara. The gopis used to worship not only Lord Shiva but Katyayani (Durga) as well, but their aim was to attain the favour of Lord Krishna. A devotee of Lord Krishna does not disrespect Lord Shiva, but worships Lord Shiva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Krishna. Consequently, whenever a devotee worships Lord Shiva he prays to Lord Shiva to achieve the favour of Krishna and he does not request material profit." (Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4. 24.30.) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur offered these prayers wriiten for Gopishwara Mahadev when he visited the Lingaraj temple in Bhubaneshwar on June 22nd, 1922: Vrindavanvani-pate jaya soma soma maule sanandana-sanatana-naradeya gopishvara vraja-vilasi-yuganghri-padme prema prayaccha nirupadhi namo namas te "O Shiva, O gatekeeper of Vrindavan! O you who are accompanied by Uma (Parvati)! O you who carry the moon in your hair! O lord worshiped by Sananda-kumar, Sanat-Kumar and Narada Muni! O Gopishwar, the worshipable deity of the gopis! Desiring that you bestow upon me love for the divine couple, Sri Sri Radha Madhava, who perform joyous pastimes in Vraja, I offer my obeisances unto you again and again." (Srila Vishwanatha Chakravarti's Sri Sankalpa-kalpadrum ) It is related that Lord Shiva desiring to witness the Rasa Lila is stopped from crossing the Yamuna by goddess Vrinda. Shiva protests this refusal of entry, saying he is a great devotee of Krishna and should be allowed to participate in His most wonderful pastime with the Gopis. Vrinda devi's rejoinder is firm: "Krishna is the only male in the rasa-lila." Lord Shiva, not to be outdone, submerges himself in Yamunadevi, non-different from love of Krishna, and emerges as a gopi. Now qualified as feminine, he gains an exclusive inside view into the Rasa play of Krishna and the gopis. The other Gods, including Brahma, may only witness and shower flowers from outside the realm of Vamsivata on Yamuna shore. The Deity of Gopishwar Mahadev, worshipped in a small temple near Vamsivata, is a lingam -- one of four important Shiva-linga shrines in Vraja. Each night the lingam is transformed as he assumes the semblance of a gopi's face, replete with nose ring and other feminine ornaments in a most colourful attire The ensemble is different every day of the year. Lord Shiva resides forever in Vrindavan as Gopishwara Mahadeva, the dearest devotee of Krishna, and thus participates in all the Lord's unending Lila. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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