Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guruvani 0]

 

The very existance of this topic, along with it's ongoing debate, is a testimony to the need of a physically present spiritual master.

Well, as Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja both have stated that all Vaishnavas are spiritual masters, then we would have to agree with that, in that all devotees need other devotees to associate with.

 

The spiritual master comes in many forms. If we only see the diksha guru as the spiritual master, then we won't see how the spiritual master is manifesting in other forms and in other Vaishnavas.

 

So, yes, we all need to have Vaishnava association - association with spiritual masters.

 

But, there are many such spiritual masters in the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Some devotees like to insist that there is only ONE sadhu on the planet now and if everybody doesn't surrender to him then they are in maya.

 

Needless to say, this kind of fanatic sentimentalism is for neophytes.

[Guest guest]

 

The very existance of this topic, along with it's ongoing debate, is a testimony to the need of a physically present spiritual master.

Another form of argument has been invented - argument from controversy.

The only problem is deciding which side of the controversy is true.

A coin toss maybe.

But the topic of diska is only controversial when its formal rite is religiously insisted upon.

It is non-controversial when one understands that formal diksa as it is properly and spritually understood is merely that - a formality - an external symbol of the reality of the disciple's surrender to the spiritual master. It follows from this that it is not strictly necessary.

All the little tests and questions are academic.

I've often observed how once devotees have received the spiritual name - admittance to the sacred circle, after a year or even a few months they begin to slack off on their saddhana. Because their desire for inclusion - the real desire - has been satisfied. It is satisfying to see one self as part of an exclusive spiritual group better than everybody else.

[krsna 3]

 

The very existance of this topic, along with it's ongoing debate, is a testimony to the need of a physically present spiritual master.

 

Allow the pure devotee guru vaisnava, who is always manifest to one sincerely calling (crying) out for Mahaprabhu's mercy, to do his job of cutting you free from the ropes of illusion:

 

In Vraja-vilasa-stava, text 1, Srila Raghunath Das Goswami has compared our spiritual pursuits to traveling on a road where one is beset with thieves. Raghunath Das says that our only hope is to call out to the swanlike devotees of the Lord.

pratistha-rajjubhir baddham kamadyair vartma-pattibhih

chitva tah samharantas tan aghareh pantu mam bhatah

"The highwaymen of lust, greed, and anger have captured me and bound me with the ropes of the desire for fame.

I pray that the heroic devotees of Lord Krishna, the enemy of the Agha demon, may defeat my captors and cut the ropes that bind me.":pray:

[krsna 3]

 

I stand corrected ... yes, diksa is the beginning.

 

Axiomatic premises-

 

Definition of Ax"i*om - A self-evident and necessary truth, or a proposition whose truth is so evident as first sight that no reasoning or demonstration can make it plainer.

 

Axiomatic Premise #1.

 

The bona fide disciple must have complete faith in the words of Srila Prabhupada. The spiritual master does not impart words which are merely incidental or of relative importance. In other words, every word and statement of Srila Prabhupada is the "life and soul" of the bona fide disciple. Every word, every instruction, either oral or written, every order of Srila Prabhupada is of paramount importance to the understanding of guru tattva. The disciple never has the option to "pick and choose" instructions as if they are a box of chocolates. We must accept the statements of Srila Prabhupada, without assumption or interpretation, only "as they are," especially his final statements in 1977, on the subject matter of guru tattva.

 

Axiomatic Premise #2.

 

A bona fide disciple cannot nullify or question a latter statement on guru tattva from Srila Prabhupada, like in 1977, by arguing a prior statement from Srila Prabhupada which seems to be contradictory to the latter statement. In other words, a disciple cannot minimize a statement made in 77, by citing some prior instruction. This is the principle of "the final order."

Example-

 

"I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly to you, you do it. Your first duty is to do that, you cannot argue -'Sir, you said to me do like this before', no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, that is obedience you cannot argue." (SP S.B. Lecture, 14/4/75, Hyderabad)

Axiomatic Premise #3.

 

The bona fide disciple does not challenge Srila Prabhupada's statements, asking him for verification of "guru, sastra, sadhu." It is very offensive to make such a challenge, suggesting that Srila Prabhupada could make a statement which is not in line with "guru, sastra, sadhu."

 

Example- Some challenge the principles of the letter of 7/9/1977, and his answer of May 28th, 1977, asking for "guru, sastra, sadhu."

 

Axiomatic Premise #4.

 

Since Srila Prabhupada spoke to us in the English language, then we must accept the Dictionary English definitions of the words in his statements.

Example- There is much talk about the word in the 7/9 letter, "henceforward." In final analysis, we have to accept the dictionary definition, Merriam-Webster says- adv. "From this time forward", or- "from this point on" synonyms are- "hereafterthenceforth"; all of which means a future continuance, there is no hint of temporality.

Example #2, Srila Prabhupada said on 5/28/77 "when I order," (you become regular gurus). We have to accept the dictionary definition of "when." Merriam-Webster says- when- "used in the manner of a conjunction to introduce a dependent adverbial sentence or clause, having a causal, conditional, or adversative relation to the principal proposition."

 

Note- We have a commentary by Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura wherein he explains "abhidhä-vrtti" (dictionary definition) and "gauna-vrtti" or direct and indirect meanings.

Axiomatic Premise # 5

 

The bona fide disciple obeys Srila Prabhupada immediately, without consideration of personal opinion or dislikes, and without consideration of vox populi of the multifarious opinions of Internet forums like vnn, vina, cakra, vc, or gbc, and without consideration of prior tradition.

 

Example- from Caitanya-caritamrta-

 

"Being ordered by his father, Parasurama killed his mother, Renuka, just as if she were an enemy. Laksmana, the younger brother of Lord Ramacandra, immediately engaged Himself in the service of His elder brother and accepted His orders. The order of the spiritual master must be obeyed without consideration."

(Madhya-lila ch 10.145)

 

Also, verse 144 of the same chapter-

Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya said,

 

"The order of the spiritual master is very strong and cannot be disobeyed. That is the injunction of the sastras, the revealed scriptures." (Madhya 10.144)

 

So, here we see that Parasurama immediately killed his mother in obedience to his father (his mother's life was restored afterwards.) So, Srila Prabhupada gave his orders via the 5/28/77 conversation and 7/9 letter, and his Will, and therefore the disciple will obey without further consideration of whether he thinks its right or wrong. To challenge the 5/28 and 7/9 statements of Srila Prabhupada, asking for "guru, sastra, sadhu" is therefore ludicrous, as his order and it's mandatory obedience are backed by all sastra.

 

Axiomatic Premise #6.

 

The bona fide disciple of Srila Prabhupada only accepts the terminology given to us by Srila Prabhupada, especially when speaking of guru-tattva. He rejects all other terminology which is invented, such as concocted "buzz words" like "ritvikism." This also applies to concocted "catch phrases."

Examples- They say "ritvikism" and Srila Prabhupada never said this. They give catch phrases like "ritvikism stops the parampara." Srila Prabhupada never said this. (How could it stop the parampara if that was his plan?) They say "ritvikism is heresy," and Srila Prabhupada never said such a thing, so on, so on. "Post-samadhi" is another concoction.

 

Axiomatic Premise #7

 

The bona fide disciple accepts the direct words (the intrinsic meaning of his words) of the founder Acarya, as his "life and soul," and is extremely scrutinizing and cautious of the various explanations and arbitrary interpretations of the Acarya's words, which are offered by other so-called leader disciples of the Acarya. This is because, it is historically seen that many interpreters, in the guise of theologians and philosophers, have ruined the missions of other previous founder acaryas in other religions. And usually these offenders are his so-called direct disciples.

Example- The real disciple accepts wholly the direct words (intrinsic meaning) of Srila Prabhupada on 5/28/77 and 7/9/77 and in his will, and the related letters of 1977, whereas some disciples argue like lawyers trying minimize these orders, or attribute these orders to be some concoction of "disgruntled disciples," accusing them of inventing this plan, all the while ignoring the direct intrinsic meaning of the words of Srila Prabhupada.

We have a commentary by Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura wherein he explains "abhidhä-vrtti" and "gauna-vrtti" or direct and indirect meanings.

 

Axiomatic Premise #8

 

The bona fide disciple does not support artificial warring factions within his spiritual master’s mission. Srila Prabhupada forbid us to create separate factions. Faction consciousness is in the mode of passion and stunts the intelligence of a disciple who is sincerely trying to discern the truth.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Note- Srila Bhaktivinode says in his Tattva-viveka- “When people divide into factions and hate each other in terms of those factional groupings, that hatred can become very strong. Passionately loyal to their faction, the people no longer give any thought to what ideas are logical or illogical.”

<O:P></O:P>

Here we see that factions generate extreme hatred, and this renders a devotee to be devoid of intelligence and logic. Srila Prabhupada never said that “Henceforward, those who accept my statements made in 1977 on the subject of “ritvik representatives” in a straightforward manner shall always be known as “ritviks” and those who contend with this group shall be known as “anti-ritviks.” This is all concoction and deviation from Srila Prabhupada’s express desire that his movement never be divided into splinter groups. Differences should be settled or tolerated in the mode of goodness without dividing into camps.

Axiomatic Premise #9

Statements that are indefinite conditional propositions - they are not taken seriously as substantial evidence for the establishment of a thesis. On the other hand, those statements that are the exact opposite, i.e., those which are definite and unconditional assertions – they are substantial for the establishment of a thesis.

In this regards, we find several assertive statements in the 6 points of evidence for guru tattva given by Srila Prabhupada in 1977.

Conversely, we find a solitary point, which is indefinite and a conditional proposition. We will attempt to demonstrate by presentation of facts and logic and show how each point is either definite or indefinite, conditional and unconditional, and then come to a conclusion.

 

Axiomatic Premise #10

The members of this Council, although earnestly protecting the authority of Srila Prabhupada's vani upon those who claim to be his followers, shall not engage in defaming or vilifying another person engaged in devotional service. As Lord Krsna explains that "Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated. Bg 9.30"<O:P> </O:P>

It is to be understood that not all devotees are on the same level of understanding as explained clearly in the scriptures. Also, Lord Caitanya has given a directive for one who wants to advance in devotional service with the "trnad api sunicena" verse of His Siksastakam. Therefore great care should be given to the words used in an exchange between devotees.<O:P> </O:P>

If a member of this council feels that an improper statement has been made, a palatable rebuttal supported by sastra should be offered. Quarrel should be avoided at all costs. The feeling of anger should not prevail among us. To avoid creating havoc with a dispute, one of the moderators should be called in when deemed necessary.<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Axiomatic Premise #11<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

When a point on a particular subject has been dealt with extensively, if a reminder is in order, the same point should be referred to with the help of the post number to avoid redundancy.<O:P>

</O:P>

[Guruvani 0]

hey now.....

we need proper explanation of what is the origin of the above thesis.

 

please don't post such things without posting the source reference.

 

thank you,

[mahak 0]

This is the theme for Visokas web group, vaisnava council.

 

Funny axioms change? Revisionism is change, Vyasadeva remains the same.

 

Always question the source.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[krsna 3]

 

hey now.....

we need proper explanation of what is the origin of the above thesis.

 

please don't post such things without posting the source reference.

 

thank you,

 

OK (O KRSNA) KB, will do.

 

<TABLE id=main_table cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=propertyvalue>Read more at:

http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/vasinava_council_archives.htm#mem

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=clear_line colSpan=3> </TD></TR><TR><TD id=tip_footer colSpan=3></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[mahak 0]

been there, done that

[krsna 3]

 

been there, done that

 

EMMA BUNTON LYRICS:

"Been There, Done That"

 

I've been there, done that

Ooh-ooh

(Yeah) been there, (yeah) done that

(I've been there, done that)

I gotta take some time

Say what's on my mind

Before I get too close to you

Cos I feel that I'm

About to cross the line

And there's no going back once I do

(So here's the key)

You've ever thought of falling so deep?

Am I pushing you out of your day

(How do you feel)

Gotta know your playing for keeps

Boy I won't accept anything less

Cos I've been there (been there)

Done that (done that)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact

I refuse to (refuse to)

Go back (go back)

To half-hearted promises, simple as that

(I've been there, done that)

Now I don't wanna rush

Get too into us

I need a little more from you

And I don't mean to fuss

But this is serious

And I hope that you feel that way too

(So here's the key)

You've ever thought of falling so deep?

Boy the time has come to confess

(How do you feel)

Gotta know your playing for keeps

Cos I won't accept anything less

Cos I've been there (been there)

Done that (done that)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact (don't wanna get hurt again)

I refuse to (refuse to)

Go back (go back)

To half-hearted promises, simple as that (to half-hearted promises, simple as that)

Cos I've been there (been there)

Done that (done that)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact (I don't wanna get hurt again, no no)

I refuse to (refuse to)

Go back (go back)

To half-hearted promises, simple as that (oooh, yeah-hey)

Tell me straight cos I ain't gonna wait

For you to break my heart

I wanna hear it, say that you mean it

Before we go too far

Cos I've been there

Done that (yeah-yeah)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact (matter of fact)

I refuse to

Go back (go back)

To half-hearted promises, simple as that (I know you're playing for keeps)

Cos I've been there (been there)

Done that (done that)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact (matter of fact)

I refuse to (refuse to)

Go back (go back)

To half-hearted promises, simple as that (simple as, simple as that)

Cos I've been there (been there)

Done that (done that)

I don't wanna get hurt again, matter of fact (no, no)

I refuse to (refuse to) (I ain't goin back)

Go back (go back) (I just ain't goin back)

To half-hearted promises

Simple as that

[Guruvani 0]

 

This is the theme for Visokas web group, vaisnava council.

 

Funny axioms change? Revisionism is change, Vyasadeva remains the same.

 

Always question the source.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Oh....ok.

 

Vishoka....

I got to know him in Badger, Ca.

 

He is a really nice gentleman and quite a witty fellow.

 

He wrote a novel once and it read something like Ramayana.

 

They guy is not an idiot for sure.

 

I like Vishoka..... he is a very nice devotee.

[krsna 3]

 

Oh....ok.

 

Vishoka....

I got to know him in Badger, Ca.

 

He is a really nice gentleman and quite a witty fellow.

 

He wrote a novel once and it read something like Ramayana.

 

They guy is not an idiot for sure.

 

I like Vishoka..... he is a very nice devotee.

 

 

 

 

Visoka at his best here:

 

http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/Jayananda/Jayananda_Website.htm

[krsna 3]

 

It is not easy to find a qualified guru, at least in the place I live. The guru comes to us only by God's grace.

 

In truth, we have no decision as to whether we study under a guru or not. Until the time that we are connected to that person which is meant to be our Guruji, we have to take the shelter of the Lord and learn what we can from taped discourses from trusted sources, or what have you.

 

Nothing is in our hands.

 

It's all up to KRSNA. Yes. However, KRSNA reciprocates with our inner desire to have Him.

When we really, really, and I mean REALLY:crying2: desire KRSNA for KRSNA's sake alone- ONLY at that time will the all-merciful Lord Sri KRSNA condescend to give the sincere, humble and desirous soul a bona-fide KRSNA-giving Sri Guru. Not before.

[krsna 3]

From Sri Babhru Prabhu (aka stonehearted):

 

"I know that when I got Harinama from Srila Prabhupada, even though we were physically separated (he was in NY, I in Honolulu), his letter said that he was glad to accept me and that he had chanted on my beads), and I never felt a lack of connection.

 

With regard to diksa, I put that off myself for a long time because I didn't feel qualified (and missed a darned good chance when he installed the Panca-tattva in Honolulu, but when I did get it, it was knee to knee in his room in LA. The mantras went from his lips to my ear, and when I chanted them the first time that day, although I had no expectations of any kind (I took it as a duty and privilege, with no further understanding), something perceivable happened as I chanted the Gopala mantra.

 

I just don't buy the assertions of "traditionalists" who say that we have no real connection and our mantras have no power."

[Guest guest]

 

It's all up to KRSNA. Yes. However, KRSNA reciprocates with our inner desire to have Him.

When we really, really, and I mean REALLY:crying: desire KRSNA for KRSNA's sake alone- ONLY at that time will the all-merciful Lord Sri KRSNA condescend to give the sincere, humble and desirous soul a bona-fide KRSNA-giving Sri Guru. Not before.

This is nonsense. So many disciples have been initiated in ISKCON because of social pressure. There are dozens of gurus one can approach. Just jump through the GBC hurdles, get processed and voila, you have a sanskrit name. That's all there is to it, regardless of desire. If one had to wait to be so pure as to only want Krsna, one would be a pure devotee and diksa would be unnecessary.

[krsna 3]

 

This is nonsense. So many disciples have been initiated in ISKCON because of social pressure. There are dozens of gurus one can approach. Just jump through the GBC hurdles, get processed and voila, you have a sanskrit name. That's all there is to it, regardless of desire. If one had to wait to be so pure as to only want Krsna, one would be a pure devotee and diksa would be unnecessary.

 

 

Visoka dasa has a nice take on this issue. ;

 

Premise #8-<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P> </O:P>

Srila Prabhupada said that madhyma and kanistha devotees can be gurus, but he doesn’t recommend them, therefore he does not order them to be gurus.<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Quote- <O:P></O:P>

“A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance.” >>> Ref. VedaBase => NoI: verse 5

 

Note- If Srila Prabhupada thinks that “they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance,” then surely Srila Prabhupada would not order such an insufficient guru to give insufficient guidance to new disciples. <O:P></O:P>

IMHO- This may be more subjective than objective, but this is based on my own personal experience, actual cases that I’ve been involved in, and it is also based on logic and evidence. It is my opinion that I believe that all devotees in Srila Prabhupada’s movement will eventually be liberated, or they are fit for liberation, despite the situations of being initiated by the lesser kinds of gurus described in #8 [madhyma or kanistha guru] above. <O:P></O:P>

One senior godbrother has said “anyone who makes contact with Srila Prabhupada will surely be liberated and go back to godhead, but some may take longer, some may have to go through hell first, but they will eventually be liberated.” [paraphrased] I agree with this for the following reasons.<O:P> </O:P>

There are 5 situations-<O:P> </O:P>

1. Some disciples may believe that their guru is uttama, and the guru may believe as such. There is no need to argue, that is their belief. However, if the guru is truly uttama and a pure devotee, etc, then this will be revealed to everyone in due course of time by Lord Krishna’s grace, as He will personally empower this devotee. Srila Prabhupada has blessed this devotee and has already ordered him to be diksa guru. Such a devotee will be loved by all devotees, not just disciples, and will have no enmity with any other devotee, even if other devotee has philosophical disagreements with him. Such a pure devotee will never reject or alienate his godbrothers due to philosophical issues which he cannot convince such godbrothers by argumentation and logic. In other words, such a pure devotee will not alienate the so-called ritvik godbrothers, but will discuss issues in a civil manner with them, showing all respect. If this is all true, then Lord Krishna will reveal all these truths to everyone, in due course of time. There is no argument, truth will be revealed.<O:P> </O:P>

Possible objection- One might perhaps argue that Srila Prabhupada's position has not, or at least has not yet, been revealed to everyone. For example, some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers might not have seen his position in the same way that some of Srila Prabhupada's followers see it.<O:P> </O:P>

Answer- The opinions of the eternally liberated devotees outweigh the opinions of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers. Lord Krishna often reveals the truth of His pure devotee through other pure devotees, such as Lochan Das Thakur, and Bhaktivinode Thakur and Sri Narada, as we see from this excerpt from veda-base- <O:P></O:P>

“Lochan Das Thakur, in his Caitanya Mangal, predicted that a sena-pati, or a "great general," would come and accomplish this mission. This was Srila Prabhupada. Also, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, in an article entitled "Nityananda Suryodoy," which was published in the 1800s, in his Sajjana-toshani magazine -- he predicted that soon a time is coming when the chanting of Krishna's name will be heard in England, France, Russia, Germany, and America. Srila Prabhupada brought this to fruition. There is also one document from the fifteenth century. It is called the Bhagavat Mahatmya. In this book, Narada, the great sage, has a conversation with bhakti personified. In the course of this conversation, bhakti says, idam sthanam parityajya videsham gamyate maya. Literally, this means: "I will leave this country, India, and go abroad!" The same text informs us that this personified bhakti will go to South India and then leave to go abroad after staying in Vrndavana. This is exactly what Prabhupada did.” - from veda-base, "Om Shalom" and found in the Essay- “Great Souls Sometimes Re-appear”<O:P> </O:P>

More comment- Also, some of Srila Prabhupada's followers might no longer see Srila Prabhupada in the way that they used to. For example, they might no longer see him as pure,<O:P> </O:P>or no longer see him an infallible.<O:P> </O:P>

Answer- Owls do not open their eyes in sunlight, similarly those who are like owls cannot open their eyes to the blinding light of truth which Lord Krishna and great devotees reveal about the absolute position of Srila Prabhupada. These “followers” are most lamentable that they cannot understand these predictions of great devotees like Narada and Srila Bhaktivinoda and even Lord Caitanya, the Lord Himself, Who predicted that His name would be chanted in every town and village, a prediction that Srila Prabhupada fulfilled.<O:P> </O:P>

Other objection- It might perhaps be argued that some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers did not seem to display all<O:P> </O:P>that much love towards Srila Prabhupada during some of his pastimes.<O:P> </O:P>

Answer-<O:P> </O:P>Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers didn't love him because <O:P></O:P>he was successful on a grand scale, and they were feeling some competition, feeling envy because Prabhupada did such great preaching. <O:P>Envy and competition is the main reason we are here in the material world, that we wanted to compete with Krsna, and this extends to envy and competing with His pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada.</O:P>

In our Iskcon situation, the world has already been conquered by Lord Caitanya's great general, Srila Prabhupada, the predictions are already fulfilled by Srila Prabhupada, none of his disciples can do again what he already did. So there should not be that kind of envy of godbrothers if one disciple becomes a pure devotee.<O:P> </O:P>

This is because the condition of a disciple being a pure devotee is that he is completely obedient to Srila Prabhupada's desires, which means he has no argument with Srila Prabhupada's officiating acharya plan. He may have some opinion, because of the confusion, but he's not going to kick out godbrothers because of their convictions on the issue. If he can convince them otherwise by means of philosophic discussion, then fine. If he cannot, he will not cause grief to any devotee because of their belief in this issue.

Pure devotion in a disciple is measured on how much he obeys Srila Prabhupada, how much he is in union with the desires and plans of Srila Prabhupada, how much he is surrendered to Lord Krishna's great devotee, Srila Prabhupada, and is not measured on how erudite or charismatic the disciple is, or how many followers he has.

In that way, if he is really surrendered to Srila Prabhupada, then he can be loved by all devotees who understand these basic principles of obedience to Srila Prabhupada and cooperating and not excluding others just because of philosophic differences that cannot be demonstrated to be incorrect. <O:P></O:P>

2. In other cases, we find that some Iskcon gurus have gotten the realization, by Krishna’s help, that they are like the #8 class of gurus, [madhyma or kanistha guru] and they become honest about it, and they advise their disciples to take more shelter of Srila Prabhupada than themselves, in this way they are somewhat acting like officiating acharyas. Or, they are taking steps in that direction, saying that Srila Prabhupada is the one giving them the real divya-jnana, and taking them back to godhead. <O:P></O:P>

3. In other cases it is the disciple who comes to the realization that his guru is of the #8 class of guru, and such a disciple gives all respect to his madhyma or kanistha guru, but at the same time he takes full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as his “prominent link” in parampara. Such disciples are already worshipping Srila Prabhupada in the daily guru-puja that happens daily in every Iskcon temple. They take shelter of his books and tapes. I have personal experience of seeing this happen, many times. <O:P></O:P>

The first 3 cases will get liberation eventually, if not directly. <O:P></O:P>

4. In some cases, the guru is madhyma or kanistha, but he and his disciples still persist in thinking he is higher, often mistaking charisma and book learning to be uttama. The disciples are still connected to Srila Prabhupada in many ways, the daily guru-puja, reading his books, hearing his lectures, and therefore will be liberated eventually, if and when they take that connection seriously. <O:P></O:P>

This is not the same situation as us senior devotees being connected to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, because we don’t have guru-puja for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta every day like all devotees do for Srila Prabhupada. We didn’t read Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s books, or hear his tapes every day either. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wasn’t the founder acharya of our institution, nor did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta set up a officiating acharya system for himself, as Srila Prabhupada did.<O:P> </O:P>

5. In some cases, the new student studies the issues on his own, or hears from older disciples, thinks for himself, and decides to directly take initiation from Srila Prabhupada via an officiating acharya or a ritvik acharya as described by Srila Prabhupada in his 77 statements, and thus such a new disciple takes direct shelter of Lord Krishna’s pure devotee without a doubt, and goes directly back to godhead. This fulfills Srila Prabhupada’s will that his disciples are always directors of temples. 100’s of devotees have taken this option already.<O:P> </O:P>

IMHO, I believe all devotees of Iskcon are fit for liberation, and some will take longer than others. The main obstacle that will retard or delay a devotee’s liberation will be his making offenses to devotees, such as new students making offenses to older Srila Prabhupada disciples. Sadly this happens in the turmoil of guru issues and debates. If this is the case, such devotee must beg forgiveness [to the person] for any offense he has made to older devotees in the heat of guru issues. The same principle holds for older devotees making offenses to gurus and grand disciples.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Oh....ok.

 

Vishoka....

I got to know him in Badger, Ca.

 

He is a really nice gentleman and quite a witty fellow.

 

He wrote a novel once and it read something like Ramayana.

 

The guy is not an idiot for sure.

 

I like Vishoka..... he is a very nice devotee.

[krsna 3]

 

The mood, the service, the Surrender.

At his lotus feet.

Jai Srila Prabhupada!

[Guest guest]

<font face="monotype corsiva" color="red" size=8><B><I>Diksa from a living guru is utterly important to complete the process of initiation into the Parampara.</B></I></font>

[Guest guest]

 

“Lochan Das Thakur, in his Caitanya Mangal, predicted that a sena-pati, or a "great general," would come and accomplish this mission. This was Srila Prabhupada. Also, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, in an article entitled "Nityananda Suryodoy," which was published in the 1800s, in his Sajjana-toshani magazine -- he predicted that soon a time is coming when the chanting of Krishna's name will be heard in England, France, Russia, Germany, and America. Srila Prabhupada brought this to fruition. There is also one document from the fifteenth century. It is called the Bhagavat Mahatmya. In this book, Narada, the great sage, has a conversation with bhakti personified. In the course of this conversation, bhakti says, idam sthanam parityajya videsham gamyate maya. Literally, this means: "I will leave this country, India, and go abroad!" The same text informs us that this personified bhakti will go to South India and then leave to go abroad after staying in Vrndavana. This is exactly what Prabhupada did.”

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You can think that he [Prabupada] is your prana-priya sakhi – only this relation. He has given nectar, so that now you are able to think a little of the spiritual world and how to reach it, and how to attain the service of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. If he had not taught you, and if he had not initiated you, you would be unable to think of these subject matters. There is an ocean of love there, and the conception of Prabhupada only as the world preacher is an obstruction. It is only his outer identity. For example, “You are so and so, your native place is in America, and you are very intelligent” This is all your external identity. Your inner life is very beautiful, but no one knows your inner identity.

 

We should try to understand the inner identification of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. That understanding will give you the internal idea of devotional service.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Originally Posted by Guest

Diksa from a living guru is utterly important to complete the process of initiation into the Parampara.

 

 

Somebody should have told that to Bhaktivinode Thakur before he wrote Sri Krishna Samhita.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Somebody should have told that to Bhaktivinode Thakur before he wrote Sri Krishna Samhita.

 

Do you think Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is an ordinary devotee? When a nitya siddha descends to this world is he subject to the rules and regulations that apply to those attempting to practice sadhana bhakti?

 

Is there a conflict between the interests [focus] of ISKCON & Srila Bhaktisiddhanta??

 

If I lost faith in something it would be the whole Saraswata system, not just what Srila Prabhupada established in ISKCON.

 

Really, if one is going to cut and make new beginnings it would start with Bhaktivinode Thakur himself who made a major departure from "traditional" Gaudiya thinking with such books as Sri Krishna Samhita etc.

 

Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Do you think Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is an ordinary devotee? When a nitya siddha descends to this world is he subject to the rules and regulations that apply to those attempting to practice sadhana bhakti?

 

 

Actually, Sridhar Maharaja said that Bhaktivinode was sadhana-siddha, not nitya-siddha.

 

At least that is what I heard at SCSMandir.

 

Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja told me that Sridhar Maharaja said Bhaktivinode came up from the ranks of the conditioned souls to become siddha.

 

So, I don't buy the "nitya-siddha" theory behind Bhaktivinode.

 

Nitya-siddhas don't blaspheme the Bhagavat, the Vaishnavas or other such things that Bhaktivinode did before he became a Vaishnava.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

It is difficult to concieve that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, the Seventh Goswami, whose internal identity is Kamala Manjari, rendering service in Svananda-Sukhada-Kunja, serving the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna under the guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari in the association of Ananga Manjari did not descend from that plane.

[Guest guest]

Who Is The Perfect Guru?

(A Vyasa-puja lecture)

 

Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb.12, 2002 (morning)

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

[On Feb.12, 2002 about 300 devotees attended Appearance Day festival of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja. After performing elaborate arcana and puja of the guru-parampara, Srila Maharaja gave the following discourse on the sixth verse of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Sri Gurvastakam.]

 

I offer my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my paramaradhya (most worshipable) Srila Gurudeva, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja. I offer the same unto my siksa-gurus, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and prapujyacarana nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja, and unto the lotus feet of our whole guru-parampara. I offer my puspanjali unto their lotus feet.

 

It is stated in verse six of Sri Gurvastakam by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura:

 

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya

tratrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri caranaravindam

 

["Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis, planning the arrangements for the perfection of Yugala-kisora's amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vrndavana. Because he is so expert in making these tasteful arrangements for Their pleasure, he is very dear to Sri Radha and Krsna. I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva."]

 

What is the meaning of nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai? What is that guru doing?

 

[Devotee:] He's rendering intimate service to the Divine Couple.

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] What services does he render? The answer is very secret.

 

[Devotee:] He performs pleasing services.

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He not only does this. Sometimes he rebukes Krsna in many ways, and sometimes he also cheats Him. [An example of cheating Krsna is as follows: Krsna may ask that guru (in his form as a maidservant of Srimati Radhika) if Radhika has come to the Vrndavana forest to meet Him. That maidservant may reply, "No, Her mother-in-law would not allow Her to leave the house." Although Srimati Radhika is actually hiding in a nearby grove, Krsna believes the maidservant. His anxiety to meet Radhika thus increases, and when they meet shortly after this, that meeting is more meaningful. -ed]

 

Guru must be like this: nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai. He must be serving Radha and Krsna Conjugal, and especially Radhika. The gopis make so many arrangements for Their meeting. Ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya. They engage in all the methods of cheating Their fathers and mothers and husbands for the purpose of the successful meeting of Radha and Krsna Conjugal, and for the purpose of serving Them. A bona fide guru is very expert and all these activities.

 

We see in our guru-gayatri, 'krsnanandaya dhimahi'. This refers to both Krsna and Krsnaa. [spelled in Sanskrit, k-r-s-n-a with a long 'a' at the end.] Any male can serve Krsna, but no male can serve Krsnaa. Krsnaa is Radhika. Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krsna Conjugal.

 

[sripad Bhaktisar Maharaja:] And our Srila Prabhupada?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has "cheated" them all in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all. Rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya - he is always making tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Their meeting.

 

So I offer pranama to my gurudeva in that very form. He is cheating others, and he is even cheating Krsna. By such "cheating" he brings Krsna to serve His most beloved Radhika. In Sri Caitanya-caritamrta it has been very openly written that Srimati Radhika is the guru of Krsna.

 

krsnera sahaya, guru, bandhava, preyasi

gopika hayena priya sisya, sakhi dasi

 

["The gopis are the helpers, teachers, friends, wives, dear disciples, confidantes and serving maids of Lord Krsna." (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.210)]

 

sahaya guravah sisya

bhujisya bandhavah striyah

satyam vadami te partha

gopyah kim me bhavanti na

 

["O Partha, I speak to you the truth. The gopis are My helpers, teachers, disciples, servants, friends and consorts. I do not know what they are not to Me." (quoted in Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.211 from Sri Gopi-premamrta, as spoken by Krsna)]

 

Why not take shelter in the lotus feet of She who is the guru of Krsna? Our guru is there, in Goloka Vrndavana, serving Radhika.

 

This verse does not apply to ordinary, bogus gurus who fall down twenty times or thirty times. It also doesn't apply to gurus who can fall down. I do not accept them as gurus. Actually, guru is one who can serve Radhika. If a guru has fully controlled his senses, but he is not directly serving Radhika, he is only partially guru.

 

It is stated in verse one of Sri Upadesamrta by Srila Rupa Gosvami:

 

vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam

jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam

etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah

sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat

 

["A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled person."]

 

Such gurus totally follow the instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami:

 

atyaharah prayasas ca

prajalpo niyamagrahah

jana-sangas ca laulyam ca

sadbhir bhaktir vinasyati

 

["Bhakti is destroyed by the following six kinds of faults: (1) eating too much or collecting more than necessary, (2) endeavors which are opposed to bhakti, (3) useless mundane talks, (4) failure to adopt essential regulations or fanatical adherence to regulations, (5) association with persons who are opposed to bhakti, and (6) greed or the restlessness of the mind to adopt worthless opinions." (Sri Upadesamrta, verse 2)]

 

utsahan niscayad dhairyat

tat-tat-karma-pravartanat

sanga-tyagat sato vrtteh

sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati

 

["Progress in bhakti may be obtained by the following six practices: (1) enthusiasm to carry out the rules which enhance bhakti, (2) firm faith in the statements of the sastra and the guru whose words are fully in line with the sastra, (3) fortitude in the practice of bhakti, even in the midst of obstacles, or patience during the practice stage of bhakti, even when there is delay in attaining one's desired goal, (4) following the limbs of bhakti such as hearing and chanting and giving up ones material sense enjoyment for the pleasure of Sri Krsna, (5) giving up illicit connection with women, the association of those who are overly attached to women, and the association of mayavadis, atheists and pseudo-religionists, and (6) adopting the good behavior and character of pure devotees." (Sri Upadesamrta, verse 3)]

 

dadati pratigrhnati

guhyam akhyati prcchati

bhunkte bhojayate caiva

sad-vidham priti-laksanam

 

["Offering pure devotees items in accordance with their requirements, accepting prasadi or remnant items given by pure devotees, revealing to devotees one's confidential realizations concerning bhajana, inquiring from them about their confidential realizations, eating with great love the prasada remnants given by devotees, and lovingly feeding them prasada - these are the six symptoms of loving association with devotees." (Sri Upadesamrta, verse 4)]

 

A partial guru may even follow this verse:

 

tan-nama-rupa-caritadi-sukirtananu-

smrtyoh kramena rasana-manasi niyojya

tisthan vraje tad-anuragi-jananugami

kalam nayed akhilam ity upadesa-saram

 

["While living in Vraja as a follower of the eternal residents of Vraja who possess inherent spontaneous love for Sri Krsna, one should utilize all his time by sequentially engaging the tongue and the mind in meticulous chanting and remembrance of Vrajendranandana Sri Krsna's names, form, qualities and pastimes. This is the essence of all instruction. (Sri Upadesamrta, verse 8)]

 

Still, if he is not like Rupa Manjari and Rati Manjari, and if he is not serving them, he may be a guru in part, but not in full. The highest quality of a guru is service to Radhika, as I have just explained. In this way, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is writing, vande guroh sri caranaravindam. I bow down to my Gurudeva, and all gurus in the line of Sri Rupa Gosvami. Such a guru is not only the prakasa (manifestation) of Nityananda Prabhu or Baladeva Prabhu, but he is also the prakasa of Radhika. Such a guru is the most exalted. As Ananga Manjari, even Baladeva Prabhu takes shelter of Srimati Radhika's lotus feet. How beautiful and glorious She is.

 

In this evenings class we will discuss guru-tattva, from beginning to end. Whether you are lady devotees or male, you should be ready to speak.

 

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] Gurudeva, you said that a partial guru has controlled the six urges like vaco-vegam, manasa, krodha-vegam, etc. Such gurus, even with that partial quality, will not fall?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] They will not fall down, but they are not perfect gurus. Those who are serving Srimati Radhika personally are gurus of the highest caliber.

 

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] Regarding the ones who have fallen down, they're not even partial gurus?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] No. They are not even devotees, what to speak of being gurus. They are not only cheating others, but they are cheating themselves.

 

Gaura Premanande

[Guruvani 0]

 

It is difficult to concieve that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, the Seventh Goswami, whose internal identity is Kamala Manjari, rendering service in Svananda-Sukhada-Kunja, serving the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna under the guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari in the association of Ananga Manjari did not descend from that plane.

According to Srila Prabhupada, nitya-siddhas have two distinct tell-tale signs.

(1)They are born in a family of pure devotees

(2)They are Krishna conscious from the beginning and throughout their entire lives.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur had neither of those qualifications.

 

So, according to the guidelines given by Srila Prabhuapda, Bhaktivinode Thakur must been considered as sadhana-siddha.