Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna 3]

 

I have heard some ISKCON gurus referring to certain ISKCON temples as branches of ISKCON, yet Srila Prabhupada referred to the whole society as a branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON.

 

the whole of ISKCON is a branch.

 

To become a branch you must branch out from ISKCON.

 

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nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhu-tale

 

 

 

srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine

 

 

 

namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracarine

 

 

nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine

 

 

 

 

 

"I offer my respectful obeisances unto His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who is very dear to Lord Krishna, having taken shelter at His lotus feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Our respectful obeisances are unto you, O spiritual master, servant of Sarasvati Gosvami. You are kindly preaching the message of Lord Caitanya-deva and delivering the Western countries, which are filled with impersonalism and voidism."

 

 

 

 

 

"'ANY PERSON WHO SERIOUSLY DESIRES TO ACHIEVE REAL HAPPINESS MUST SEEK OUT A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND TAKE SHELTER OF HIM BY INITIATION. THE QUALIFICATION OF HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER IS THAT HE MUST HAVE REALIZED THE CONCLUSION OF THE SCRIPTURES BY DELIBERATION AND BE ABLE TO CONVINCE OTHERS OF THESE CONCLUSIONS.

 

Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understood as bona fide spiritual masters.' Similarly, Visvanatha Cakravarti, a great Vaisnava, also advises, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah:'By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the mercy of Krsna.' This is the same advice given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija). This is essential.

 

ONE MUST COME TO KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, AND THEREFORE ONE MUST TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE. Thus one can become free from the clutches of matter." (SB 5.14.41)

 

[Guruvani 0]

Where are all the girl gurus that Srila Prabhupada talked about?

boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."

[krsna 3]

 

Where are all the girl gurus that Srila Prabhupada talked about?

 

Urmila Devi Dasi

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

<!-- start content -->

Urmila devi dasi in Italy, 2003.

Urmila Devi Dasi, previously known as Dr. Edith E. Best (born in ) is one of the leading female disciples of (founder of the ) specialising in primary and secondary education within the movement

Early days

Urmila devi earned her Masters of School Administration and Doctor of Education in Educational Leadership from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She became a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in 1973. Urmila struggled to be treated equally in the early days of the male -dominated of the . She gained inspiration when she met Srila Prabhupada, who was both fair and compassionate on her situation as a young mother. Srila Prabhupada would often speak nicely with her own family, including her own father, which helped her spiritual life go smoothly. Urmila’s husband, three children and seven grandchildren are all active in Krishna consciousness.

Variety of services

Urmila Devi Dasi has been principal of elementary and secondary schools in ISKCON for 18 years, and has managed and taught in a pre-school for 5 years. For 10 years she was a member of ISKCON’s international board of education, and for 7 years was vice-chairman of the North American board. Urmila continues to develop and teach local, national, and international seminars for trainers, educators, and managers which she has done for 22 years. She has developed and taught numerous courses for elementary, high school, college, and adult learners in a wide variety of subjects using interactive and experiential learning in addition to lecture. She’s the author of a book on management and teaching and is a writer and editor for , an international magazine. Urmila is a member of the Grhastha Vision Team, which is coordinating courses and materials to strengthen marriage and the family in ISKCON North America. She is also a member of the Advisory Council to the GBC.

[Guruvani 0]

Urmila is the token female guru in ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada said all his girl disciples should be guru.

 

Why only Urmila?

 

All the devoted female disciples of Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON gurus.

 

But, Urmila is the only one to get the GBC rubber stamp, because the GBC is standing in the way of the orders of Srila Prabhupada that ALL his disciples should be gurus.

 

Instead, they build up an insider clique and keep out anyone that isn't part of the power sharing cartel in ISKCON.

[krsna 3]

 

Urmila is the token female guru in ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada said all his girl disciples should be guru.

 

Why only Urmila?

 

All the devoted female disciples of Srila Prabhupada should be ISKCON gurus.

 

But, Urmila is the only one to get the GBC rubber stamp, because the GBC is standing in the way of the orders of Srila Prabhupada that ALL his disciples should be gurus.

 

Instead, they build up an insider clique and keep out anyone that isn't part of the power sharing cartel in ISKCON.

 

Why don't you sell a part of your soul so that you too can get the GBC Stamp of Approval and partake of the "power sharing cartel in ISKCON."?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Why don't you sell a part of your soul so that you too can get the GBC Stamp of Approval and partake of the "power sharing cartel in ISKCON."?

 

Well, for me, Urmila is the last female disciple of Srila Prabhupada that should be a guru, because she has bought into a corrupt and deviant GBC bureaucracy.

I think there are plenty of advanced devotee women that should be guru before the politician Urmila.

 

I think the female disciples that have renounced the deviant GBC are the real honest female disciples of Srila Prabhupada that should be female gurus.

[Guest guest]

Straighforward quote. No confusion!

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

[Admin5 1]

 

Straighforward quote. No confusion!

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

There is already a registered user "Vigraha" , please do not use the name.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Straighforward quote. No confusion!

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

All of ISKCON is one branch.

Srila Prabhupada made that clear in his books.

 

You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON as ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

To be a "branch" you can't be within ISKCON, as ISKCON is ONE branch - the branch of Srila Prabhupada.

 

there is no way that you can be a branch and still be within ISKCON.

ISKCON as a whole is ONE branch.

[Guest guest]

Please provide a quote from Srila Prabhupada confirming what you say. Else it is just speculation.

 

 

All of ISKCON is one branch.

Srila Prabhupada made that clear in his books.

 

You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON as ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

To be a "branch" you can't be within ISKCON, as ISKCON is ONE branch - the branch of Srila Prabhupada.

 

there is no way that you can be a branch and still be within ISKCON.

ISKCON as a whole is ONE branch.

[Guest guest]

Seems like there is another Vigraha. Sorry about that.

 

 

Please provide a quote from Srila Prabhupada confirming what you say. Else it is just speculation.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Please provide a quote from Srila Prabhupada confirming what you say. Else it is just speculation.

 

I already posted it a few posts back on the last page of this topic.

But, here it is.

 

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 9.18

 

visa visa sakha kari' eka eka mandala

maha-maha-sakha chaila brahmanda sakala

 

SYNONYMS

visa visa -- twenty, twenty; sakha -- branches; kari' -- making a group; eka eka mandala -- form a society; maha-maha-sakha -- big branches; chaila -- covered; brahmanda -- the whole universe; sakala -- all.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Thus the branches of the Caitanya tree formed a cluster or society, with great branches covering all the universe.

 

 

PURPORT

Our International Society for Krishna Consciousness is one of the branches of the Caitanya tree.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

It does not say that ISKCON cannot have branches, so it is just an assumption by you.

 

 

I already posted it a few posts back on the last page of this topic.

But, here it is.

[Guruvani 0]

 

It does not say that ISKCON cannot have branches, so it is just an assumption by you.

Not really.

How can you say that there can be other branches and still be ISKCON?

 

The whole of ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

Srila says ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

If all of ISKCON is ONE branch, then how can there many many branches within ISKCON.

 

The branch of ISKCON will have to branch out from ISKCON.

 

If you says that ISKCON has many branches then ISKCON cannot be ONE branch that Srila Prabhupada describes.

 

Within ISKCON everything is ONE branch.

 

It is impossible for ISKCON to be a branch and have branches within.

 

The branches have to stem out from ISKCON.

 

Everything within ISKCON is part of the ONE branch of Srila Prabhupada.

 

To say that within ISKCON there are many branches then ISKCON can no longer be One branch.

 

There is no such thing as branches within a branch.

 

The branches must come out, they cannot be within.

 

All ISKCON temples are ISKCON and therefore the ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

[Guest guest]

Can't agree. If you look at a tree, within a branch, there may be several other branches. But they all belong to the same main branch. In the same way, this will also work.

 

 

Not really.

How can you say that there can be other branches and still be ISKCON?

 

The whole of ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

Srila says ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

If all of ISKCON is ONE branch, then how can there many many branches within ISKCON.

 

The branch of ISKCON will have to branch out from ISKCON.

 

If you says that ISKCON has many branches then ISKCON cannot be ONE branch that Srila Prabhupada describes.

 

Within ISKCON everything is ONE branch.

 

It is impossible for ISKCON to be a branch and have branches within.

 

The branches have to stem out from ISKCON.

 

Everything within ISKCON is part of the ONE branch of Srila Prabhupada.

 

To say that within ISKCON there are many branches then ISKCON can no longer be One branch.

 

There is no such thing as branches within a branch.

 

The branches must come out, they cannot be within.

 

All ISKCON temples are ISKCON and therefore the ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Can't agree. If you look at a tree, within a branch, there may be several other branches. But they all belong to the same main branch. In the same way, this will also work.

do ISKCON gurus then say that they are a "branch of ISKCON".

 

That doens't even sound right.

 

For your theory to work, the ISKCON gurus would have to say that they are a branch of ISKCON, yet at the same time they are in ISKCON.

 

You can be IN a branch and still be a branch.

 

See, where Srila Prabhupada has made the distinction in that purport is if he would have said "I" (Srila Prabhupada) am a branch of the Chaitanya tree) it would be feasible to make your argument.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is one branch.

 

If ISKCON has sub-branches then there is no longer ONE branch of ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

He didn't say it was a limb full of branches.

 

If there are many branches IN ISKCON then ISKCON is no longer a branch but a limb.

 

Srila Prabhupada never said ISKCON was limb, but ONE branch - not many branches.

 

By your theory ISKCON is many branches of the Chaitanya tree.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada said it was ONE branch.

[Guest guest]

Fact is ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada. So if Prabhupada said I or ISKCON, it doesn't make a differnece. It is all the same. There is no mistake in his statement. Therefore, it will work.

 

 

do ISKCON gurus then say that they are a "branch of ISKCON".

 

That doens't even sound right.

 

For your theory to work, the ISKCON gurus would have to say that they are a branch of ISKCON, yet at the same time they are in ISKCON.

 

You can be IN a branch and still be a branch.

 

See, where Srila Prabhupada has made the distinction in that purport is if he would have said "I" (Srila Prabhupada) am a branch of the Chaitanya tree) it would be feasible to make your argument.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is one branch.

 

If ISKCON has sub-branches then there is no longer ONE branch of ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is ONE branch.

 

He didn't say it was a limb full of branches.

 

If there are many branches IN ISKCON then ISKCON is no longer a branch but a limb.

 

Srila Prabhupada never said ISKCON was limb, but ONE branch - not many branches.

 

By your theory ISKCON is many branches of the Chaitanya tree.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada said it was ONE branch.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Fact is ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada. So if Prabhupada said I or ISKCON, it doesn't make a differnece. It is all the same. There is no mistake in his statement. Therefore, it will work.

 

I don't agree.

You are saying ISKCON is many branches of the Caitanya tree.

 

Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

To be an acharya in ISKCON today is to be a branch of the Chaitanya tree.

 

But Srila Prabhupada didn't say ISKCON is many branches, he said it is ONE branch.

 

Every acharya is a further branch of the tree.

If ISKCON has many acharyas then there are many branches and ISKCON is no longer ONE branch as Srila Prabhupada described.

[Guest guest]

In post 491, you said-

 

"See, where Srila Prabhupada has made the distinction in that purport is if he would have said "I" (Srila Prabhupada) am a branch of the Chaitanya tree) it would be feasible to make your argument."

 

Since ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada, by your own admission in your statement above, my argument is correct.

 

 

I don't agree.

You are saying ISKCON is many branches of the Caitanya tree.

 

Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

To be an acharya in ISKCON today is to be a branch of the Chaitanya tree.

 

But Srila Prabhupada didn't say ISKCON is many branches, he said it is ONE branch.

 

Every acharya is a further branch of the tree.

If ISKCON has many acharyas then there are many branches and ISKCON is no longer ONE branch as Srila Prabhupada described.

[krsna 3]

 

I don't agree.

You are saying ISKCON is many branches of the Caitanya tree.

 

Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

To be an acharya in ISKCON today is to be a branch of the Chaitanya tree.

 

But Srila Prabhupada didn't say ISKCON is many branches, he said it is ONE branch.

 

Every acharya is a further branch of the tree.

If ISKCON has many acharyas then there are many branches and ISKCON is no longer ONE branch as Srila Prabhupada described.

 

Why is it called Bhakti-vriksha?

 

In Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, Lord Caitanya and His movement are compared to the tree of devotion, the Bhakti-vriksha. Srila Prabhupada writes in the summary of C.C. Adi-lila, Chapter Nine:

 

It is figuratively described that both the tree itself and the trunk of the tree are Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The tree surrounds the entire world, and the flowers of the tree are to be distributed to everyone. In this way the tree of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu intoxicates the entire world.

[krsna 3]

CC Adi 11.4: Sri Nityananda Prabhu is the topmost branch of the indestructible tree of eternal love of Godhead, Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I offer my respectful obeisances to all the subbranches of that topmost branch.

CC Adi 11.5: Sri Nityananda Prabhu is an extremely heavy branch of the Sri Caitanya tree. From that branch grow many branches and subbranches.

CC Adi 11.6: Watered by the desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, these branches and subbranches have grown unlimitedly and covered the entire world with fruits and flowers.

[Guruvani 0]

 

In post 491, you said-

 

"See, where Srila Prabhupada has made the distinction in that purport is if he would have said "I" (Srila Prabhupada) am a branch of the Chaitanya tree) it would be feasible to make your argument."

 

Since ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada, by your own admission in your statement above, my argument is correct.

 

 

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

That is just a false idea.

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada is foolish imaginative idea.

 

Srila Prabhupada lives in his instructions, not in some bureaucracy full of ambitious persons who commit untold offenses to their own spiritual master.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada never mentioned any sub-branches of ISKCON.

ISKCON is ONE solitary branch.

 

ISKCON is supposed to have leaves, fruits and flowers - not more branches.

[Guest guest]

 

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

That is just a false idea.

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada is foolish imaginative idea.

 

Srila Prabhupada lives in his instructions, not in some bureaucracy full of ambitious persons who commit untold offenses to their own spiritual master.

 

Jai!

[krsna 3]

 

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

That is just a false idea.

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada is foolish imaginative idea.

 

Srila Prabhupada lives in his instructions, not in some bureaucracy full of ambitious persons who commit untold offenses to their own spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada has given in his dedication to Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

"To my spiritual master Srila Bhaktisidhanata Saraswati Thakur, he lives forever by his divine instructions and the follower lives with him".