Ritvik Principle Described in Chaitanya Caritamrita

[Guruvani 0]

Madhya-lila Ch. 15 is a very crucial chapter, in the Chaitanya Caritamrita, for understanding the principle of initiation, the relevance of purascarya-vidhi, the independent character of the Holy Name and the representative system of initiation that Srila Prahupada established in ISKCON. This chapter covers the issue of initiation and all the elements of diksha as Srila Prabhupada established it in ISKCON.

 

In support of the ritvik system, Srila Prabhupada directs in text 108, purport:

 

When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread(brahminical initiation) after the second six months.

 

 

A little further down in that purport, Srila Prabhupada says:

 

One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures UNDER THE DIRECTION OF A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER.

 

This statement is saying that one should be initiated under the direction of a bona-fide spiritual master and not necessarily directly by a spiritual master. This is very important to undertand Prabhupada's conception of initiation and his representative system of authority in ISKCON.

 

 

This purport clearly advocates a ritvik system of initiation wherein the temple presidents recommend a devotee for initiation as opposed to the Gaudiya Math dogma that the spiritual master has to observe personally and directly a disciple, exchange questions and answers etc. etc. under the old so-called traditional method of spiritual master/disciple relationship.

 

I will cover more issues in this chapter in subsequent posts, like the independence of the Holy Name to not wait for initiation, the necessity for purascharya vidhi etc. etc.

[Guest guest]

direction means interactivity, ok for ritvik, but not after samadhi

[Guruvani 0]

"interactivity?" Where does Prabhuapda say there must be "interactivity"? He says "under the direction". That direction has already been given by Srila Prabhupada in his instructions on this matter. He gave the directions in the purport that the temple presidents would observe, instruct and recommmend the new initiates.

Prabhupada said many times "everything I have to say I have said already in my books". There is no need to bother him with personal questions. The principles have been given, they apply to everyone and detailed instructions are included in all the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The interactivity is that Prabhupada gave his instructions and the disciple is to accept his instruction and implement them.

 

We could bother Prabhupada with unecessary inquiries like "why is Krishna blue", but all this amounts to just so much self-importance and has nothing to do with following the directions already given by Srila Prabhupada in his books, thousands of letters, thousands of tapes and the answers to questions he has already answered over and over again.

[Guruvani 0]

"must be interactive"

 

This line of thinking is in line with Gaudiya Math dogma and is not the actual principle given by the founder of that Math but is the dogma introduced by the disciples that Srila Prabhupada referred to as neophyte and fourth class men.

 

This is EXACTLY the reason that Prabhupada mandated that ALL of his disciples should avoid ALL of his Godbrothers.

This kind of polluted dogma stands against the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and created an irreversible rift between ISKCON and these so-called Gaudiya Math types.

 

Many of Srila Prabhuapda's disciples have disobeyed him in this regard and committed a great offense and are therefore preaching this same kind of Gaudiya Math dogma as if it were the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. It is not. It represents the school of thought of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada that he ordered his disciples to stay away from.

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

Could you please name the Godbrothers, for future reference

please? All of them..

 

[Guruvani 0]

names..........Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja

 

These were the names given by Prabhupada. Though he said several times that ALL of his disciples should avoid ALL of his Godbrothers.

 

Later he made Sridhar Maharaja the exception and instructed some disciples to take siksha from him. He praised Sridhar Maharaja as his siksha guru and said that his disciples would be greatly benefitted by his instruction.

 

Sridhar Maharaja is the only documented exception to Prabhupada's orders to avoid his Godbrothers.

[Guest guest]

[bhagavad-gita 4.34-38 New York, August 17, 1966]

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

 

For knowledge we have got to go to the right person, tattva-darsi. Tattva-darsi means "one who has actually seen or experienced the Absolute Truth." So unless we find out such a person who has actually seen the Absolute Truth or who has in his experience what is Absolute Truth, so there is very little chance of our spiritual advancement.

 

If we can find out such a person who is experienced in the Absolute Truth, and if we follow the principles, as it is stated here, pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. Pranipata means to surrender, and pariprasna means to inquire, and sevaya means service. Three things. You should find out a person who is self-realized, who has experience in the Absolute Truth, and, on your part, you have to surrender there, and you have to INQUIRE, and you have to render service. When these things are completed, there is no doubt about one's spiritual salvation.

 

If we have actually found out a person who is self-realized and we have surrendered there honestly, with INQUIRY and service, then we must know that our spiritual salvation is guaranteed. Guaranteed. There is no doubt about it.

 

..................

 

Not that you have to submit yourself blindly. Although your spiritual master may be self-realized and experienced in the Absolute Truth, still, YOU HAVE TO QUESTION. You have to understand from him ALL CRITICAL POINTS BY YOUR INTELLIGENT QUESTION. That is allowed. So it doesn't matter. If anyone is able to answer about the science of Krsna, he is spiritual master. He is spiritual master. It doesn't matter where he's born or what he is, whether he's a brahmana, or a sudra, or an American or an Indian or whatever he is. Never mind.

.................................

 

[Guruvani 0]

You can inquire from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books. I do it all the time. I have a question about something and I go to Prabhupada's books for the answers.

 

Prabhupada said it over and over again "everything I have to say, I have said in my books"

 

The answers to all iquiries are already there in the Vani of Srila Prabhupada.

 

You are no different than any of the sages in the past who have inquired and the standard questions have already been answered over and over again.

 

ISKCON was set up for service and inquiry through senior devotees, the books and Prabhupada's thousands of letters to disciples.

 

The answers are already there. You don't need to bother Prabhupada again with the same questions he has answered over and over again.

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

It all sound too complicated for me!

 

But what if the Godbrothers you mentioned are now purified?

But Srila Prabhupada must have known in the future that some of his Godbrothers didn't have the qualifications to become Gurus except Sridara Maharaja, so why did the aspiring devotees go against SP words of pure wisdom.

 

Haribol over and out!

[Guest guest]

"YOU HAVE TO QUESTION. You have to understand from him ALL CRITICAL POINTS BY YOUR INTELLIGENT QUESTION."

 

this is a personal contact, not a book reading

[livingentity 0]

by Prabhupada concerning His Godbrothers was in the negative.

 

Prabhupada even gave one devotee permission to be initiated by Sripada Madhava Maharaja:

 

"Please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet. I understand from the letter of Asita das that he has gone to your place in Jagannatha Puri. He has asked permission from me for taking initiation from you. I have given him my permission and you can initiate him if you like so that he may increase his devotional service there."Letter to: Sripada Madhava Maharaja : 75-01-14 Bombay

 

"If you want to take initiation from Madhava Gosvami Maharaja I have no objection."Letter to: Asita das : 75-01-10 Bombay

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"by Prabhupada concerning His Godbrothers was in the negative."

 

of course, like in our movement now, the majority was not of pure devotees, but majority is not everyone

 

. i appreciate your message

[theist 1]

Govindaram asks a crucial question.

 

>>"But what if the Godbrothers you mentioned are now purified?"<<

 

The risk of harping on this stuff decades later, it is very great. One doesn't have to hear form anyone he doesn't want for whatever reason he likes. But to continual publicaly critcize others is very dangerous. Especially in the vaisnava world.

 

 

 

 

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

"one should respect one's spiritual master's Godbrothers as one respects one's spiritual master."Adi-lila: Chapter Five, Text 147

 

amen.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

"Please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet. I understand from the letter of Asita das that he has gone to your place in Jagannatha Puri. He has asked permission from me for taking initiation from you. I have given him my permission and you can initiate him if you like so that he may increase his devotional service there."

 

 

This is likely a case of a disciple wanting to leave the shelter of Prabhupada and take reinitiation from a Gaudiya Matha guru (He is already initiated as 'Asita Das'). Thus this letter isn't the positive acceptance it looks like at first glance.

[livingentity 0]

what you mean. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

[yasodanandana 0]

yes... srila prabhupada did like that to reduce the offence, not because he was agreeing

 

he had the right to reject completely the disciple

 

but the impression of a srila prabhupad not in such war (as we maybe believed before) with godbrothers remains

[gHari 0]

We all know that this is how initiations were done for many years in ISKCON. I can't see how this suggests that Srila Prabhupada decided secretly on post-samadhi ritvikism way back then, and somehow let the surprise slip out here subconsciously. Are we to think that it was for fear of being murdered that Srila Prabhupada was keeping all this a secret? It just gets complicateder and complicateder.

 

 

 

Yes, that ain't a word, for all those working on their English. [more and more complicated]

 

[Guruvani 0]

As far as Prabhupada releasing a disciple to be re-intitated by Madhava Maharaja, that was only a graceful and dignified way for Prabhupada to deal with something that was inevitable. Prabhupada was not personally attached to any disciple in that way, but he wanted to protect his disciples and his mission as far as possible so he issued a comprehensive instruction that ALL his disciples should avoid ALL his Godbrothers and that instruction was only somewhat slackened as he did allow some disciples to take siksha from Sridhar Maharaja who never ever advocated re-initiation and rejection of Prabhupada as did the aforementioned Godbrothers.

 

Though Srila Prabhupada did release that disciple to Madhava Maharaja, the important thing to remember is that such action in no way altered or changed his instruction to the rest of his disciples to avoid contact with his Godbrothers save and except Sridhar Maharaja.

 

We are not saying that the Godbrothers of Prabhupada are bad or fallen or anything derogatory. The point is that Prabhupada made some changes and some adjustments in bringing Krishna consciousness to the western world and the whole issue is that his Godbrothers would not be able to appreciate that Prabhupada was conducting himself independently and making innovations that they could not understand.

 

Many of the Gaudiya Math sannyasis are very respectable sadhus. However, they are conditioned to a certain orthodox perception of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and knew Prabhupada when he was just "an ordinary grhasta" a "junior Godbrother" and they could not see him as shaktyavesha avatar empowered to spread Krishna consciousenss all over the world.

 

It is for reasons such as this that Prabhupada wanted his disciples to avoid his Godbrothers because though they were devout and disciplined, they simply could not fathom the position and power of Srila Prabhupada.

 

[Guest guest]

real and experienced sadhus would put your "post samadhi religion" in ridicule, here's the reason of your big fear

 

(we can see it in every ritvik site, paper, book etc. no one is more infected by criticism disease than them... unprecedented in the history of all vedic paths)

[Guruvani 0]

Actually, you are wrong about that. Maybe you missed it, but a learned scholar of the Madhva sampradaya has supported the ritvik system and enoucouraged the leaderhip of ISKCON to follow that system.

Madhva Sampradaya Scholars Support Ritvik

 

-----------------

BY ISKCON BANGALORE

 

BANGALORE, INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas & Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an exercise.

 

We see HG Basugosh Prabhus' postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation.

 

However, since the exercise has begun we find it only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue to them.

 

HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars:

 

'Vidyavachaspati' Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was awarded the title: 'Vidyaa-vaachaspati' by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas.

 

(read the interview posted with Govindachar)

 

Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami Desikachar: A broad-minded Sri Vaishnava scholar and sannyasi. He was previously a professor in National College, Bangalore. He is a Sanskrit scholar. He has disciples who come from Smaarta, Sri Vaishnava and Maadhva backgrounds.

 

(for the information of the readers, these two above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG Basugosh Prabhu!)

 

The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami:

 

Question: According to Srila Prabhupada's letter of July 9th, 1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric principles, what is your holiness' opinion?

 

HH Rangapriya Swami: It appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not in violation of any shastric principles.

 

Question: Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system?

 

HH Rangapriya Swami: By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him.

 

Question: If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, 'Whose disciple are you?" what should they say?

 

HH Rangapriya Swami: They should say, 'Srila Prabhupada is my guru.' Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority.

 

Question: As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed?

 

HH Rangapriya Swami: Yes, there is no problem.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system"

note how many "it appears"... it seems to me that this devotee has spoken on the basis of your documents )

...

surely srila prabhupad is very happy that you refuse to ask questions to other gaudya vaishnavas

...

why you dont take "ritvik" initiation from madhvacharya? you'll became the most senior in the world

.....

the jumpover continues

[Guest guest]

i do not like wars, with madhvacharya devotees or with everyone else

but see this and judge if we have to learn something about prabhupad from this

 

http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/gita/prabhupada_review.shtml

 

but there's' no problem, i take this as subject for high profile devotees and i do not care.. but do not tell me that i have to avoid gaudya math as a plague and at the same time make love with madhvacharya devotees

 

(ask please what they think about radharani)

 

have a little rest from some days, there are devotees asking many nice things, you are a senior bhakta, i suppose that you're not only versed in ritvik

 

[Guruvani 0]

11.1.99

 

I have acquainted myself with the life and message of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of July 9th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama's padukas.

 

In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue as intended by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada's system accords a unique position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin, who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to Bhagavan Himself.

 

The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of his message.

 

The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions.

 

Signed. Rangapriya Swami.

[Guruvani 0]

So, your idea is to come in here and post material meant to break the faith of devotees in Srila Prabhupada? There was not even a name attached to that article.

So, now we can see that there are anti-ritvik, anti-Prabhupada people lurking in the forums and looking for chances to take advantage and attack Prabhupada and discredit his books.

 

I thought this forum was meant to be a place favorable to Srila Prabhupada? It looks like it is becoming the propaganda tool for those that want to discredit Srila Prabhupada.