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Christ in Vedas

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"if god is absolute and unlimited, he is not different from his name, form, activities, environment etc.. ... actually he is his name"

I recited the name of our traditional faith( to be frank with you the very name I think you will be suggesting to me_Krishna") ,but I could not find peace or the satisfaction of forgiveness of sins in me when I worshipped him.Because I could not find any difference of Him,whom I recite and myself.Reason is,he is just a mere man like me and committed all the sins like me.Then can he forgive my sins?My knowledge disagrees because a sinner & a lustful man like him cannot have authority to forgive others' sins.I think I am talking logic.I found that there is no difference,I sinned,he too sinned.He too had all lusts I had in me.He played all the tricks of this world, I also did.No holy life in him.I write this with my heart.


You quoted:

"so reciting any real and traditional name of god and living the life in a way who is favorable to this practice, this will bring us back to godhead"

It will be disaustrous and is dangerous sir.

Now you are asking me to follow Him.Do you mean that?If I follow him,I will ruin my life still further.Having happy life will be too far, the present life will become a terrible life.How can I follow & live the life like that?

I say I am already in sin and you recommend me a sinner as God.Do You want me to ruin my already shattered life sir?

I tried but it still ruined me further more.

You quote:

"this is recommended from any path and religion.. and it is surely higher that the current, materialist, sectarian way to understand the term "religion"

If it is recommended from any path,then why is this way ,not acceptable sir?

I agree with you,it may be higher than the term"religion".BUT IT SHOULD BE A HOLY WAY.If God is not holy,how can he ask us to be holy?ISN'T IT?





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"to be frank with you the very name I think you will be suggesting to me_Krishna"

i humbly think that the name krsna is the most "full of divinity", but i have not given limits to anyone


"but I could not find peace"

it is not so easy, we have to practice a lot, being humble and attentive


"or the satisfaction of forgiveness of sins in me when I worshipped him"

you cannot "check" your karma account like you do in the bank, if you chant the holy name you have wiped away billions of sins


"Because I could not find any difference of Him,whom I recite and myself"

how can you be god? have you create the universe? are you mantaining it? can you avoid to die?


"I think I am talking logic"

actually there is not logic in what you are saying, if one that you call god is not saint, he is not god, or you have no idea of what and who is saint


"If I follow him,I will ruin my life still further.Having happy life will be too far, the present life will become a terrible life"

this demonstrates that you have never tried, the opposite of what you have said before ("I recited the name of our traditional faith")



you do have to justify... you are saying that the water is not wet ( = god is not godly... how can it be?)





if you are saying that krishna has a sinful behaviour it is not a new and revolutionary thing, some one, for example Kamsa and Sisupala, had the same misunderstanding about 5000 years ago... now it is more easy, i promise you that you will change your idea if you read more deeply bhagavad gita and you chant more humbly and attentively


if you are really interested you will surely do it

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I didn't realize this before but i think u were trying to respond to me. I didn't go to any extremes. All I pointed out was some possible problems with that Bhavisya Purana translation. I don't have any interest otherwise in Christianity, positive or negative. YoU are thinking I was someone else.


You mentioned that you got the translations from three different websites. Could you give the URLs for each? I would be really interested in looking at them.





So again I am thinking this is Shiva. ha Sorry. (And nothing personal to you Shiva, either.) Will folks PLEASE start to sign their names???


With that said, I only have a few minutes. Dont have links on me at present moment. Just did a quick re-read of your comments before clicking on here. With so little time I wish to briefly point out that Jesus was not against worship of the Deity, he was against worship of man made idols as well as against fallen brahmana's doing the puja's. He was a Vaishnava, worshiper of Vishnu only undercover (therefore we must be careful not to make offenses to this hidden devotee of Krishna). That he lived in India when young and trained as brahmacarya in Puri's Jagannatha temple. Issa (or Isa) has been proven as a name Jesus often used, as he used a few, with Isa being one of the main ones, but I dont have the evidence you will probably want me to provide right now. Anyway, after his training in Jagannatha Puri, he returned to his homeland where they crucified him, only to survive the crucifixion and return to India, where he spent the rest of his life.


I am not out to prove Christianity, I am out to prove Jesus was a Vaishanva. The shroud has tilaka (and I can show the shroud belonged to him but I am not in that mood at the moment-get tired of challenges).Our spiriutal master, Srila Prabhupada, has also said Jesus was a shaktyavesha avatara and Vaisnava. Repeatedly. He would not put it in his purports of Srimad Bhagavatam over and over and OVER if it were untrue.


I keep saying all this on these message boards so many times, so forgive me if I am a little impatient tonight (which is nothing personal). Oh yes, and to answer one of your previous concerns - Jesus was preaching according to time, place and circumstance, not according to date or whatever sounds logical to us. I must run for now.



Prtha dd

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I won't speak about the other communities because my knowledge about their scriptures are very limited.


In general... Dr. Zakir Naik speaks fairly about the Christianity. One thing I don't agree with Him, the Bible and majority of Christians don't claim Jesus as God..but we always call him our Lord, the Beloved Son of the Father and our way to the Father.


Thank you prabhuji for sharing this site!


God Bless!


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no that was not me, i always tell you if it is.


anyways, these theories are not originating from me,

they are widely accepted by scholars and historians,

it least those without an agenda.


another thing, like i said before, if you want to present

Mahaprabhu to the educated non christians these things

are good to know, if they ask you about your belief

concerning jesus, they would think you beneath them if you

told them Jesus was an avatar.


It's not that these are some obscure theories, secret societies in europe have flourished for a long time

with these ideas, historians today cannot ignore

the facts surronding Christ as a historical character,

that was the purpose of the catholic modernist movement,

they preach that Christ is a methaphor,his teachings

not really his but a mix of ancient beliefs,

in fact the Jesuits are very much in to this concept,

it least the honest ones, at their websites you can see them glorify people like Teilhard De chardin, a jesuit

priest/archeologist who preached a type of atheism/mayavada philosophy, believing in the evolution

of the universe and all things to the "omega point",

a level of universal perfection for all people and things, While He was severly criticized by the church,

and his books banned, still he is treated like an icon

by the Jesuits.



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no so, most christians believe Jesus is God,

some do not, the followers of trinitarian doctrine

believe He is God,incarnate, that includes catholics,

and protestants,and the eastern orthodox church's,

this is at least 90% of christians worldwide.


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so what is your point ?


that you are to good to learn what these people

in powerfull positions think ?


get real, is it better to be a snob to these folks

or to gain their trust ?

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snob to atheist and/or mayavadi priests. Why waste my time with their poison?


It is you that is the silly one. What is there to learn from them? Our acaryas have left us so much more than we can ever read or listen to in this lifetime - why waste a second of our precious time on the atheists and mayavadis literatures etc.


But if that is what you choose to do - go for it. Nobody here is stopping you. Read on!

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it's not what i can learn from them,it's what they

can learn from Mahaprabhu, you just need to

think before letting your emotions take control.


if you speak to people about vedic philosophy

who are not christians, will they take you seriously

if they think you are an uneducated person ?


anyways, here is some more to show how old and how pervasive these ideas are.



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is limited and I do not wish to follow around the atheists and mayavadis trying to change them. I do not wish to become tainted by their association. Call me selfish or whatever but that is my choice. I prefer to associate with like-minded people to myself.


I will leave that up to you since you are so much more highly educated.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Time IS short.



Everyday this is becoming clearer and clearer to me. Not sure if it is age that has made this so obvious or if my reading and studying is finally sinking in!! But it has been glaringly obvious to me that I have wasted so much precious time that I will never get back - Rather than lament on this loss (it won't get it back!) I try harder to make every moment count - I fail miserably but I still try.


So it is out of the question for me to listen, read or seek out these atheists or mayavadi priests and try to debate them. I will leave that task to those who are much more advanced than myself and more capable of counteracting their poison.

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In reply to : "Time is short "

"I have wasted so much precious time that I will never get back - Rather than lament on this loss (it won't get it back!) I try harder to make every moment count - I fail miserably but I still try."



What is Krishna :

28) Krishna is the person who is time (Kala). (1/7)

29) Krishna is time's own self.(70/26)

30) Krishna is even the time of time. (56/27)


So, you have krishna right there! enjoy your "K"


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[From the Pratisarga Parva, Chapters Four to Seven.]



This portion of the Purana is an exact copy of the Old Testament Stories. It cannot be doubted that the author of the Purana was not only familiar with the Old Testament stories, but was an expert. The fact that these data were available to the writer in its entirety indicates a very recent origin.


Notice in the following story details and even the exactness of names (slightly twisted)


“Indriyani damithwa

Yehyaathmadhyaana parayana:

Thasmad Aadama naamaasou

Pathnee Havyavathee smritha” ‘Prathisargaparvam’4:28


In the eastern side of Pradan (Pradan means Main, Important, Capital of the country) city where there is a big God-given forest (Eden), which is 16 square yojanas in size. The man named Adama (Adam) was staying there under a Papa-Vriksha or a sinful tree (Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil) and was eager to see his wife Havyavati. (Hovah) The Kali purusha quickly came there assuming the form of a serpent.


Satan (Evil Person = Kali Purusha) - the association of Serpent as the Satan came much later in the first century after the advent of Christianity. In the Bible it appears only in the book of Revelations. This association is prevalent in the Acta Thoma stories which were written in the 4th centuary.


Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made


He cheated them and they disobeyed Lord Vishnu (Yahweh is here identified with Vishnu). The husband ate the forbidden fruit of the sinful tree. They lived by eating air with the leaves called udumbara


After they had sons and all of them became mlecchas. Adama's duration of life was nine hundred and thirty years


Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


He offered oblations with fruits and went to heaven with his wife. His son was named Sveta-nama ( Seth- nama = name), and he lived nine-hundred and twelve years.


Gen 5:8 and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.


Sveta-nama's son was Anuta (Enosh), who ruled one-hundred years less than his father.


Gen 5:10 and Enosh lived after he begat Kenan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:


His son Kinasa (Kenan) rulled as much as his grandfather.


Gen 5:14 and all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.


His son Malahalla (Mahalalel) ruled eight-hundred ninety five years.


Gen 5:17 and all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.


His son Virada (Jared) ruled 960 years.


Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.


His son Hamuka (Enoch) was devoted to Lord Vishnu, and offering oblations of fruits he achieved salvation. He ruled 365 years and went to heaven with the same body being engaged in mleccha-dharma.


Gen 5:23 and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:


Gen 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


The son of Hamuka was Matocchila (Methuselah). He ruled for 970 years.


Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.


His son Lomaka (Lamech) ruled 777 years and went to heaven.


Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.


His son Nyuha (Noah) ruled for 500 years.


He had three sons named Sima, Sama and Bhava. (And Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. ) Nyuha was a devotee of Lord Vishnu.


Once the Lord appeared in his dream and said: “My dear Nyuha, please listen, there will be devastation on the seventh day. Therefore, you have to be very quick that you make a big boat and ride in it. O chief of the devotees, you will be celebrated as a great king”.


Then he made a strong boat which was 300 feet long, 50 feet wide and 30 feet high. It was beautiful and all the living entities could take shelter in it. He then himself rode in it, engaged in meditating on Lord Vishnu.


Gen 6:15 And this is how thou shalt make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.


Lord Indra called the devastating cloud named Sambartaka and poured heavy rain continuously for 40 days.


Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


The whole earth, Bharat-varsa, had merged in the water and four oceans came up together. Only Visala or Badarikasrama was not submerged. There were 80,000 great transcendentalists in Visala who joined with king Nyuha and his family. All of them were saved and everything else was destroyed.


They were known as Sima, Hama, Yakuta and also Yakuta, Sapta putra, Jumara and Majuya. The name of their countries were known as Madi, Yunana, Stuvaloma, Tasa and Tirasa. ama (Ham) who was the second son of his father, had four sons know as Kusa, Misra, Kuja and Kanaam.


Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth from the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth:


Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.


Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Put, and Canaan.


Gen 10:22 The sons of Shem: Elam, and Asshur, and Arpachshad, and Lud, and Aram.


Kusa had six sons - Havila, Sarva, Toragama, Savatika, NimaruhaI and Mahavala.


Gen 10:7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah: Sheba, and Dedan


Their sons were known as Kamala, Sinara and Uraka. And their countries names are Akvada, Bavuna and Rasana.


His son Arkansoda ruled for 434 years.


Gen 11:12 And Arpachshad lived five and thirty years, and begat Shelah.


Gen 11:13 and Arpachshad lived after he begat Shelah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Sihla ruled for 460 years.


Gen 11:14 And Shelah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:


Gen 11:15 and Shelah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Iratasya ruled the same length as his father.


Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:


Gen 11:17 and Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Phataja ruled for 240 years.


Gen 11:18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:


Gen 11:19 and Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Rau ruled for 237 years.


Gen 11:20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:


Gen 11:21 and Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Juja ruled the same length as his father.


Gen 11:22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:


Gen 11:23 and Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Nahura ruled for 160 years, and he destroyed his many inimical kings.


Gen 11:24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:


Gen 11:25 and Nahor lived after he begat Terah a hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.


His son Tahara ruled the same length as his father.


Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years:.


He had three sons: Avirama, Nahura and Harana.


Gen 11:27 Now these are the generations of Terah. Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.








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Hello everyone,


May the Good Lord will bless us all, and will make us more tolerant with each other /images/graemlins/smile.gif


It's very exciting to read everyone's side in this forum. However, it wasn't that nice all the time when we critisize and question the authority of each other's perception and understanding about God.


Reading the replies above reminds me of the story of the six blind men and an elephant. I know this is just a story-poem but it depicts what is happening to us right now.


John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend:




It was six men of Indostan

To learning much inclined,

Who went to see the Elephant

(Though all of them were blind),

That each by observation

Might satisfy his mind.


The First approached the Elephant,

And happening to fall

Against his broad and sturdy side,

At once began to bawl:

"God bless me! but the Elephant

Is very like a wall!"


The Second, feeling of the tusk

Cried, "Ho! what have we here,

So very round and smooth and sharp?

To me `tis mighty clear

This wonder of an Elephant

Is very like a spear!"


The Third approached the animal,

And happening to take

The squirming trunk within his hands,

Thus boldly up he spake:

"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant

Is very like a snake!"


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,

And felt about the knee:

"What most this wondrous beast is like

Is mighty plain," quoth he;

"'Tis clear enough the Elephant

Is very like a tree!"


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,

Said: "E'en the blindest man

Can tell what this resembles most;

Deny the fact who can,

This marvel of an Elephant

Is very like a fan!"


The Sixth no sooner had begun

About the beast to grope,

Than, seizing on the swinging tail

That fell within his scope.

"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant

Is very like a rope!"


And so these men of Indostan

Disputed loud and long,

Each in his own opinion

Exceeding stiff and strong,

Though each was partly in the right,

And all were in the wrong!




So oft in theologic wars,

The disputants, I ween,

Rail on in utter ignorance

Of what each other mean,

And prate about an Elephant

Not one of them has seen!


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The heart of a Vaisnava is as soft as a rose

whereas the heart of a mayavadi

is as hard as a thunderbolt.

Let us pray at the lotus feet of Thakura Bhktivinoda

that by Sri Gouranga's mercy

our hearts melt in ecstatic love of God.


Saranagati Bhajan:


Both the monist philosophers

and those bewildered by worldly affairs

live in vain,

for both are devoid of devotion to You.


I pray at Your lotus feet, O Lord,

that I may be spared the company of them both.


Yet of the two the worldly man is better.

I ask never to have the company of mayavadi.


When the worldly man enters

into the company of saintly persons

within his heart he becomes inspiried

by pure devotion

through the mercy of those devotees.


But woe to him who has known

the offensive presence of impersonalist philosophy.

Such sophistry makes the heart hard as a thunderbolt .


The mayavada philosopher

declares that the true form of bhakti,

its object (Sri Krishna),

and its possessor (the devotee)

are all transitory and thus illusory.


Fie on his pretense of service to Krishna,

of hearing and chanting His glories!

His so-called prayers strike the body of Krishna

with blows more cruel that a thunderbolt.


There is no philosophy as antagonistic

to devotional service as mayavada philosophy.

Therefore I do not desire the association of the mayavadi.


Bhaktivinoda drives away the philosophy of illusionism

and sits safely in the society of Vaisnavas

under the shelter of the holy name.

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In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada spends a lot of time and effort to refute Mayavadi and athiestic speculations on the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Sri Krsna, the Absolute Truth. The greatest problem of such speculations is they deprive us engagement in pure devotional service which is the one panacea for all the woes of everyone's lives. Sometimes the Mayavadi attacks are subtle.


There are different flavors of Mayavadis, but the basic idea of the Mayavadis is that the impersonal Brahman is the source of everything including Lord Krsna, Goddess Kali, Ganesha, Lord Siva, Hanuman, the living entities, and all other forms. The Mayavadis believe these forms to be illusory, being but temporary manifestations of the impersonal Brahman effulgence. Some even worship them. Their idea is that individuality is not a fact and so we can worship any form to get whatever benefit you seek whilst we are not merged in Brahman.


With such a misunderstanding, there is no possibility for the Mayavadi to engage in or aspire to engage in eternal, loving devotional service to Lord Sri Krsna.




The fictional idea that Lord Krsna is a just a supreme *manifestation* of the deity conveys the idea of the impersonal Brahman being absolute not Krsna. [This is indicated in other ways as well.] Lord Krsna is NOT just a *manifestation* of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; this simply implies Krsna is the supreme form but NOT the Absolute Truth. The Srimad-Bhagavatam condemns this interpretation since the truth is that everything is manifested from Krsna including the impersonal Brahman. Krsna is not just a supreme form but the Absolute Truth.


Given the speculation that everything is coming from the impersonal Brahman, it's no big deal for the Mayavadis to commit rasa-abhasa-- mixing up different mellows of devotional service-- Rama's pastimes, Krsna's pastimes, Hanuman, Kali etc. They have no knowledge about the eternal nature of devotional service on different Vaikuntha planets because for them, there are no Vaikuntha planets.


Mayavadis want to merge into the supreme Brahman to become one with God and kill the eternal devotional service mood as promoted by both the Lord and His confidential devotees.


"Sanatana Gosvami, therefore, has especially warned that one should not hear anything about the personality of the Lord from the lips of a nondevotee. Nondevotees are considered to be like serpents; as milk is poisoned by a serpent's touch, so, although the narration of the pastimes of the Lord is as pure as milk, when administered by serpentlike nondevotees it becomes poisonous... Once one is associated with impersonalists, he can never understand the personal feature of the Lord and His transcendental pastimes."


Nondevotee means one not engaged in devotional service; i.e., having no connection with devotional service as coming down through the disciplic succession. A devotee engages things in Krsna's service and everyone and everything engaged in assisting in Krsna's service is purified. Similarly, a nondevotee with the malicious intention to defame the Supreme position of the Absolute Truth, Lord Krsna, poisons everything and everyone who assist in his desires.


We have seen it practically that Srila Prabhupada's books although imperfectly composed from the grammatical point-of-view caused many people to become devotees of Lord Krsna. On the other hand, so many so-called 'scholars' and 'experts' on Hinduism with no devotion wrote books with more elaborate logic and grammar on the same subject matter and no one became a devotee. Anyone who belittles Krsna and His devotees' position and eternal devotional service is a nondevotee. Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.19.37) is very clear regarding treating all forms as temporary or part of the illusory energy or maya:


"The impersonalist philosophers cannot understand the activities of the Lord. They think that all His activities are maya. Therefore, they are called Mayavadis... Some impersonalists are reluctant to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam, although many of them are now taking an interest in it just for monetary gain. Actually, however, they have no faith. On the contrary, they describe it in their own way. We should not hear, therefore, from the Mayavadis. We have to hear from Suta Gosvami or Maitreya who actually present the narrations as they are, and only then can we relish the pastimes of the Lord; OTHERWISE THE EFFECTS ON THE NEOPHYTE AUDIENCE WILL BE POISONOUS." [editor's emphasis]


If you wrongly teach a young person mathematics like 2 + 2 = 5 and 3 + 3 = 9, then to correctly teach him is more difficult than to teach another person with no knowledge of mathematics. You will have to unteach him what he has improperly learned! So it's better to not hear about Krsna at all than to hear from a Mayavadi. The best is to hear from a devotee. For example, Srila Prabhupada's chanting the mahamantra caused many drug-addicted hippies to also imitate and chant the Hare Krsna mahamantra. Since the hippies heard from a bona fide devotee, their repitition of the holy names purified them and whoever heard them in turn. Thus, it's better to hear from a drug-addicted hippy who has heard from a devotee than to hear from a so-called 'expert' on Hinduism who has not heard from

a devotee.


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We are like six blind men and an elephant. We think that we are right about God because thats the way we see him, but actually every one here is right.


Krishna is in Bible, All the vedic scriptures, you take anything he is in there...


He is even in my school books /images/graemlins/wink.gif


So, I think Myra is right. God is not known by any of us, except through love and service, otherwise we are like the 6 blind men and a fat elephant.


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