The Third Sex: Gay Vaisnavas

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by nine9:

Please retract your "loving partner crap" comment. I, myself, take extreme offence. Until my Guru Maharaja says otherwise I know my relationship is valid. The fact that it is not based on sex is good, too. End of story.

 

Who is your "guru". He condones your homosex lifestyle?

 

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Who is your "guru". He condones your homosex lifestyle?

 

Two questions with only one question mark.

..... hmmm

 

 

Dr Quack

 

 

[BDas 0]

Dear Maitreya and all,

 

It is a fact that Prabhupad had many homosexual disciples. Are we to assume that Prabhupad did not know any of them were Gay?

 

Another fact is that many of these devotees gave thier hearts and lives to the service of Prabhupad. Should we not acknowledge this?

 

Times have changed and now these Gay devotees are coming out and expressing themselves. Should we not adjust to this?

 

We say sex that is not in accordance with religious principals is a sin. This is true regardless of whether the sinner is Gay or straight. The sunday feast is full of such sinners the vast majority of whom are straight. But still we are happy to receive them into the fold regardless of their sins.

 

As Gauracandra stated we should receive all devotees as brothers regardless of their sexual preferences.

 

Faith and dedication to Krishna is a rare thing in this world and should be encouraged.

All people should be welcomed into the fold.

 

This is the spirit of our Prabhupad who gave the highest to the lowest.

 

Some of the Gay devotees on this thread are already initiated by Prabhupad. Others who are uninitiated are accepting Prabhupad our most merciful acharya in their heart as Guru.

 

Prabhupad is the Guru of all who want to follow Mahaprabhu.

 

And wanting to follow Mahaprabhu makes anyones life auspicious even if that devotee does not follow everything perfectly.

 

So I say to those inquisitors who want to know who is the Guru of the Gays.

 

I say Prabhupad is their Guru and the Guru of anyone who takes even one step toward Nitai and Gauranga. Hare Krishna, Brahma

 

[Guest guest]

There is a big difference between initiating a homosexual who makes a vow of celibacy and condoning homosexuals to set up housekeeping together.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Some of the Gay devotees on this thread are already initiated by Prabhupad.

Just think for a moment that Prabhupada was right here, and some of his initiated disciples came to him and said, "Prabhupada, we have recently found out that we are gay and we feel we should start living together as lovers in a celibate relationship, as husband and husband."

 

What do you think the answer would be? Be honest.

 

I understand that some people are speaking in regards to relationships that existed before becoming devotees, but certainly those initiated by Prabhupada cannot claim the same. It is not that they have been continuing a relationship from the last thirty years.

 

[BDas 0]

Bhaktisiddanta used a word to describe househld life that translated as "decomposed".

 

Still he initiated householders and encouraged them in Krishna Consciousness.

 

Prabhupad said many strong words against household life and at one point said he would sanction no more marriages.

 

Sanctioned or not Prabhupad accepted and encouraged the service of his devotee householders some of whom married and divorced many times.

 

Prabhupad made many concessesions and adjustments in order to sucessfully influence westerners to take to Krishna Consciousness.

 

As I said before I believe if Prabhupad came to modern SF he would make further adjustments in order to engage those in the expanding homosexual community who were sincerely interested in KC to make advancement.

 

I believe those adjustments would be something similar to what Tripurari Swami has writtten and has been posted on this thread.

 

That is promiscuity would be discouraged and

something akin to a monogomous relationship would be encouraged for those who want to advance in KC.

 

Ultimately everyone is encouraged to become celibate at some stage in life. But we know not everyone will be able to do this.

 

Of all the disciples who took this vow at initiation how many have been able to fully adhere to it?

 

Perhaps one or two percent is my guess.

 

The idea is that everyone should be encouraged to become KC and procede acording to their capacity.

 

Hare Krishna, Brahma

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

I disagree that Srila Prabhupada would have taught something different today. Srila Prabhupada came to America during the peak of women's liberation, yet he spoke out strongly against it numerous times and never adjusted the scripture's absolute statements to suit public opinion. Those who are serious about spiritual life must be willing to change their lifestyle, not change the principles of religion to suit themselves. Srila Prabhupada was firm in this. He demanded that his disciples stop eating meat. He never said, "Lets just let them all chant Hare Krishna and be accepted as they are." He did not let them contineu in their loose relationships of casual sex that was so prominent among the hippies. He demanded his disciples be disciplined. It was not a popular stance, and it was certainly a difficult thing for his disciples. But Krishna gave them the strength to change if they were sincere.

 

Today he would do the same thing. He would preach the absolute message of Godhead and not adjust it for the modern vices of society.

 

Anyone can chant Hare Krishna and be happy regardless of strict discipline and behaviour. But to propogate the side-by-side vices as harmonious to Sri Chaitanya's movement is wrong. Do not claim that your vice is a virtue.

 

We are all fallen in different ways. I don't try to make adjustments in the teachings of my gurus to accomodate my fallen position. I look at myself and say, "Its time to get up." The guru has so mercifully come to pull me out of this dirty ditch. We must show some respect and thankfulness to him by trying to purify ourselves as best we can. The rest relies on the mercy of the Lord.

 

To remain sitting in our filthy ditch and say, "This is also Vaikuntha, I'm actually fine," is the topmost insanity.

[Maitreya 0]

 

Originally posted by BDas:

Dear Maitreya and all,

 

It is a fact that Prabhupad had many homosexual disciples. Are we to assume that Prabhupad did not know any of them were Gay?

 

I'm sure he knew the nature of everyone's disease Bdas, no matter what it's label.It's all just the three modes shifting around anyway.But if we look at the word disciple,I don't see anyone room for homosexual relationships.

Another fact is that many of these devotees gave thier hearts and lives to the service of Prabhupad. Should we not acknowledge this?

Yes we should.In fact a friend of mine was at one time Prabhupada's personal servant.I'm not sure what his practice was before he met Prabhupada but he did live as a housholder for a while.Then he got caught up in this homo thing.I was shocked at first, and it was very awkward for me, but I didn't withdraw my friendship from him.And I still view him as a very rare soul on this Earth for all he did for Srila Prabhupada.

Times have changed and now these Gay devotees are coming out and expressing themselves. Should we not adjust to this?

 

Their devotional expressions should come out.Their deviant expressions should not.But this is true of everyone.

 

No we should NOT ADJUST to this.Nor should you adjust to my sinful nature just to make me feel better about 'myself'.

 

Your point on the changing times is one that I consider to be the most dangerous.Srila Prabhupada also wrote that we in the west have a problem of wanting to change things all the time.But it is we who must change to conform to the teaching presented.

 

 

If after all this time those "gay disciples" are still not considering themselves as spiritsoul, and still identifying with material tendancies, then that is all the more evidence that they need to give up that misconception.Not that they should be encouraged in their homoness and have their misconceptions reenforced.

We say sex that is not in accordance with religious principals is a sin. This is true regardless of whether the sinner is Gay or straight. The sunday feast is full of such sinners the vast majority of whom are straight. But still we are happy to receive them into the fold regardless of their sins.

And we should be happy to receive anyone into the fold, even me.But as spiritsouls.There is a difference though in practice.Heterosexual relationships are dovetailable.

 

As Gauracandra stated we should receive all devotees as brothers regardless of their sexual preferences.

 

We are brother/sistersouls on the spirtual platform.On the material level which we are all working through,the homos are the ones who make that awkward.Are they men/brothers or women/sisters?They are confused on that point which makes relating to them clumsy.

Faith and dedication to Krishna is a rare thing in this world and should be encouraged.

All people should be welcomed into the fold.

 

All are welcomed.But what is the nature and purpose of the fold?To encourage each other to take up real life which exists beyond gross and subtle bodily designations.

 

The problem is they want a stamp of approval for their bad habits.

This is the spirit of our Prabhupad who gave the highest to the lowest.

 

Some of the Gay devotees on this thread are already initiated by Prabhupad. Others who are uninitiated are accepting Prabhupad our most merciful acharya in their heart as Guru.

 

And that means also accepting his teachings on the nature of homosex.

Prabhupad is the Guru of all who want to follow Mahaprabhu.

 

And wanting to follow Mahaprabhu makes anyones life auspicious even if that devotee does not follow everything perfectly.

 

Well Brahma we are not discussing slip ups, we are discussing deviant lifestyles that some want sanction for.

 

My life is still a mixture of the auspicious and inauspicious.I don't expect sanction for my material desires.

 

So I say to those inquisitors who want to know who is the Guru of the Gays.

 

I say Prabhupad is their Guru and the Guru of anyone who takes even one step toward Nitai and Gauranga. Hare Krishna, Brahma

 

Interesting choice of words,"inquisitors".Actually he brought up his sanction from his guru so it is a natural and fair question as to this person is.

 

Yes I agree Prabhupada is Jagat Guru.So let's not change his instructions.

 

I am picking up that you think those that disagree with you on this are being self-righteous.No, we just disagree.

 

Hare Krishna

 

[Edited to enbolden some text.No content changes.]

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Sorry I hit the reply w/ quote instead of edit for the previous post which caused a duplication.

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Guest guest]

I find if very convenient that the so-called conversation was not recorded. How convenient.

[nine9 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

There is a big difference between initiating a homosexual who makes a vow of celibacy and condoning homosexuals to set up housekeeping together.

Actually Random, there is no difference, at all. Since there is no possibility of homosexuals procreating together, then there is no difference whatsoever. Think about what both statements really mean. In the first you talk about taking a vow of celibacy. In the second you talk about condoning the grhastha asrama for homosexual couples. Now, if they properly obey the order of guru then they have already vowed to be celibate. Q.E.D. Two realities are congruent.

 

I beg to remain

Your insignificant servant,

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

P.S. Maitreya, do you realise how distasteful your comment are, when you brand all of us together in one big pot? I, for one, do not want to be lumped together with the rest of 'gay society' (yes, it is promiscuous; I am not).

 

P.P.S. Why should I tell you my guru? I am an aspirant at the moment and feel it would be inappropriate to reveal his identity to anyone given the sensitive nature of this debate. It could, for example, be used against him by those of a dubious character. He is not the only one to be accepting, though, I suggest you go to http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk/cgi-bin/galva-idx.pl and look at the opinions (a little scant, at the moment, but that's because people are so darn afraid to speak up!) from both within ISKCON and without.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[amanpeter 0]

Prabhupad is the Guru of all who want to follow Mahaprabhu.

 

And wanting to follow Mahaprabhu makes anyones life auspicious even if that devotee does not follow everything perfectly.

 

So I say to those inquisitors who want to know who is the Guru of the Gays.

 

I say Prabhupad is their Guru and the Guru of anyone who takes even one step toward Nitai and Gauranga. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Yes, Srila Prabhupada is Sri Guru for all of us, and as such we are all godbrothers/sisters. Those who wish to consider themselves as disciples, however, are expected to follow the discipline he prescribed while those living under the shelter of ISKCON, within the their temples and communities are obliged to follow the four basic regulative principles, whether they're initiated or not.

 

If we could only understand and exchange real spiritual intimacy, so many unwanted things would simply fall away of their own accord. Isn't that the `higher taste` Prabhupada spoke of so often? What I find missing is the emotional component in our relationships.

 

There was a closeness that initially attracted me when I first entered the Vancouver temple, way back in 1971. We used to all line up for the one little bathroom before mangal arotike, in our bathrobes and mumbling sleepily on japa beads. It felt so much like the family I'd never had and always longed for. Now so many gurus, so many families. Even in the temples the brahmacari's have their separate rooms.

 

We used to share so much, including daily `revelations`, tears and all. If we cannot connect heart-to-heart with the many, we will be driven to connect with the few. Often that seems to mean finding those who maintain similar material attachments. Unfortunately, there is the tendency to reinforce each other's false identities in such relationships.

 

Of course, different `partnerships` are formed for diverse purposes, some more intimate and/or lasting than others, but as devotees our hearts must belong only to God, whom we see as Radha-Krsna, at least those of us who accept Lord Caitanya and aspire for His Divine Grace. All our connections with each other are to be seen in light of that supreme relationship. As Lord Jesus said, "If you love another more than me, you have no love for me."

 

What is really lacking, I believe, is knowledge and the will to give that most vital part of ourselves to God. I somehow learned, on my own, how to dovetail my own sexual desire. Some of it was tantric, involving women, and the rest was diety worship, involving Srimati Radharani. I really wish more could be explained, prabhus, but it's certainly not possible in a group setting, especially not a public one.

 

I will say this, though. Everything depends on INTENSITY of desire. Krsna has said that all offerings are directed to Him, He is the sacrifice, etc. or something along those lines. There is only ONE romantic relationship and that is between Radha and Krsna. We are mere insignificant participants in that eternal romance. As part and parcel of the internal potency, our connection is to Srimati Radharani, by His Divine Grace, which/whom She is considered to be the source and very personification of by Gaudiya vaisnavas.

 

I'm sorry to say that the sadly lacking response here and on Dharma-mela forum this recent Radhastami must be taken, by me at least, as a great difficiency in understanding and/or appreciating She who is the key to all being discussed here, and so much more.

 

So long as we worship in a religious as opposed to personal sense, formally rather than with ALL OUR HEARTS AND SOULS, we will continue to receive His Divine Grace drop by drop instead of the drowning flood which is so obviously needed.

 

Feeling separation to the point of madness while driven to complete desperation is one sure way for those who have no other shelter, family, or friends to offer relief. Eventually, in one lifetime or another, we all must reach that forceful one-pointedness that transcends any other consideration. Personally, I know no other way. JAI RADHE!

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Well that explains everything. An ISKCON "guru". LOL! Good luck. Blind leading the blind....

 

Hope he doesn't go to prison, lose his head, fall down or all the other travesties that befall ISKCON.

 

Or maybe he'll be caught playing with a bramacari in the "asram" as Rohini Kumar was in San Jose. Again, good luck, dude.

[Amara_dasa 0]

Dear prabhus- Here is a very enlivening study that shows how rapidly young people are beginning to accept gays and lesbians, the third sex, as normal members of society. In other words, as Srila Prabhupada used to say himself, "the dogs may bark, but the caravan passes."

 

http://www.hamilton.edu/news/gayissuespoll/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Who cares what the conditioned souls feel and/or think about deviants? You only prove how far this society has degraded in a few short years. You should care about what Srila Prabhupada says. Accept or reject -- at your peril.

 

==========

Chicago, July 3, 1975:

Nitäi: “Because the body is made of senses, which also require a certain amount of satisfaction, there are regulative directions for satisfaction of such senses, but the senses are not meant for unrestricted enjoyment. For example, marriage...”

 

Prabhupäda: That is not enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If you indulge in more than necessary, then you will be impotent. Nature will stop. You know impotency? That will be there. Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of impotency. They do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man. That means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish now. This is the time for preaching our program, standard. Then?

 

Nitäi: “For example, marriage, or the combination of a man with a woman, is necessary for progeny, but it is not meant for sense enjoyment.”

 

Prabhupäda: Now this progeny is bother. It is sense enjoyment, homosex. Progeny, they don’t want. They’re not interested. Only sense gratification. This is another sign of impotency. When after enjoying so many women, they become impotent, then they artificially create another sex impulse in homosex. This is the psychology. So people are degraded so much. Especially in the... Everywhere, not specially this or that. Everywhere. This is Kali-yuga. But thoughtful leaders, they are thinking, “What to do?” That’s very good sign. And take advantage and give them program exactly to the direction of Bhagavad-gétä. Then the world will be saved. Otherwise it is doomed. It is a fact. This is the opportunity for preaching. You can take that paper and heading. There are so many headings. Each heading reply. We are the only persons who can give solution. There is no other group or any man in the world. We are only. So let them take advantage of our knowledge and apply in the society to the ben... That’s all right. Now all the sannyäsés have got the good opportunity to preach. So where is the key? Keep it. (end)

 

=============

LA, May 21, 1972:

Nowadays, a sudra is on the government. A person who is a nonsense number one, he has no knowledge, he is on the head of the government. The things have been topsy-turvied. A person on religious category, he’s advocating something, oh, it is not to be uttered. Homosex. You see? He’s advocating homosex. Just see. These has been topsy-turvied. The four classes of men are there, still. But the third-class, fourth-class man is taking the place of first class. And the first-class man is kicked out, “Go out. Don’t talk of God.”

 

================

Letter to Lalitananda:

 

Hawaii

26 May, 1975

75-05-26

 

My Dear Lalitananda dasa,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement.<h3> I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? </h3>Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.

I hope this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

=============================

Philadelphia, July 11, 1975:

 

Prabhupäda: That is not enjoyment. Just like sex indulgence. If you indulge in more than necessary, then you will be impotent. Nature will stop. You know impotency? That will be there. Impotency. This homosex is also another sign of impotency. They do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man. That means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish now. This is the time for preaching our program, standard. Then?

 

Nitäi: “For example, marriage, or the combination of a man with a woman, is necessary for progeny, but it is not meant for sense enjoyment.”

 

Prabhupäda: Now this progeny is bother. It is sense enjoyment, homosex. Progeny, they don’t want. They’re not interested. Only sense gratification. This is another sign of impotency. When after enjoying so many women, they become impotent, then they artificially create another sex impulse in homosex. This is the psychology. So people are degraded so much. Especially in the... Everywhere, not specially this or that. Everywhere. This is Kali-yuga. But thoughtful leaders, they are thinking, “What to do?” That’s very good sign. And take advantage and give them program exactly to the direction of Bhagavad-gétä. Then the world will be saved. Otherwise it is doomed. It is a fact. This is the opportunity for preaching. You can take that paper and heading. There are so many headings. Each heading reply. We are the only persons who can give solution. There is no other group or any man in the world. We are only. So let them take advantage of our knowledge and apply in the society to the ben...

That’s all right. Now all the sannyäsés have got the good opportunity to preach. So where is the key? Keep it. (end)

 

[Maitreya 0]

Popular opinion polls taken in Kali-yuga.

 

If that doesn't prove a point I don't know what could.Well I guess ya' got us there.LOL

 

Where's the poll on if drug use and meat eatting are popular amongst the young in this age and so-called culture.

 

I'm just old fashioned I guess.

 

But your true colors[lavender] are becoming more clear as you speak Amara.

[nine9 0]

Dear rand0M aXiS,

 

I do not mean to put this so bluntly, but why do you keep missing the point? HOW DARE you think that I would ever go against Srila Prabhupada's orders!? Every time I say Sri Guru pranama ("om ajñana-timirandhasya...") I remember how indebted I am to Him, and how I have been given so many chances again and again to serve the Lord despite my shortcomings in fulfilling Srila Prabhupada's commands. But to deliberately DISOBEY His injunction!? Never! Why do you think I have completely alienated virtually all the gay neophyte devotees I know by consistently banging the drum of celibacy. They call me a hypocrite because I say they can continue to have a relationship without sex ... but it is possible, is it not? Or, am I to believe that grhasta couples in ISKCON do not think of each other at all, except when they want to raise a child, and even then in a clinical fashion? Come on!

 

This homosex is also another sign of impotency. They do not feel sex impulse to woman. They feel sex impulse in man. That means he is impotent. It is impotency. So things are coming so rubbish now (Conversation, Chicago, July 3, 1975)

Maybe I am impotent because I do not feel a sex impulse for a woman? But am I then to be spurned as a demon simply because you think that I have transferred those sex desires to a man?

 

You brand me something I am not, and have missed the entire point here, prabhu.

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Why don't the advocates for accepting homosexuality into Lord Caitanya's movement[which of course is not really possible]deal with the actual words of Srila Prabhupada on this subject.

 

TRANSLATION SB 3.20.26

Lord Brahmä, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me.

PURPORT

It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahmä. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.

 

 

[Amara_dasa 0]

The reason is because Srila Prabhupada was not an expert on homosexuality. One does not approach the spiritual master to learn about ordinary topics.

 

The perfect example is the text you just quoted. At the end of the story, if you read the entire text, the demons are attracted to the woman, therefore they are not homosexual. At most, this story may only apply to ordinary, heterosexual men.

 

Siddhanta must be confirmed by both guru, sadhu and sastra. After exhaustive study, I have yet to find any Vedic verse condemning homosexuality. Even the strict and harsh laws of the Dharma Shastra (Manu-samhita, Manu-smriti, etc.), barely even mention homosexuality. There is only one law discouraging it for brahmanas, and the penalty? You take a ritual bath. That's it.

 

Srila Prabhupada's quotes on social issues are all relative to time and circumstance, as we have previously discussed. There was a very nice example of this recently on CHAKRA concerning women and blacks:

 

"Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never to be given freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."

(Srila Prabhupada, Room Conversation "Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced," Mayapura 2/14/77

 

If you focus on Prabhupada's relative social statements and neglect his spiritual teachings, then you will consider the above statement to be the absolute truth. So are we to now advocate a return of black slavery within ISKCON? Was Prabhupada an expert on black history and slavery in America? Ask yourself that. I don't know, maybe some of you think that this is the most "right on" statement you have ever heard. If so, there's really nothing more I can say to you. You will take these types of statements without discretion and use them to hurt others.

 

 

[Guest guest]

So you are saying that Srila Prabhupada makes mistakes. You are no better than Mother Niscala. Just replace Mother Niscala with Amara das and this article is updated.

 

==========================

 

In a recent Chakra article, “Can the Guru Make Mistakes?” Niscala devi dasi says that

Srila Prabhupada’s statements

about women are antiquated and mistaken. “Srila Prabhupada,” she adds, “had both

imperfect senses and made mistakes.”

 

And Mother Niscala has her followers. In “Infallibility vs. Dogmatism,” Thakur Haridas das

applauds her. “No jiva is

infallible,” he says, “be he pope or guru or whatever.”

 

I wonder whether Mother Niscala and her disciple understand that they are the fallible

ones, with faulty senses and a tendency

to make mistakes. “A conditioned soul,” says Srila Prabhupada, “is hampered by four

defects: he is sure to commit mistakes,

he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are

imperfect.” (SB 4.18.5)

 

Who is this Mother Niscala anyway? What has she done for the world that now she may

sit in judgement of Srila Prabhupada

and tell us which of his teachings are still good and which are outdated?

 

And of course, if Srila Prabhupada is outdated, what can we expect from his followers?

“Some devotees had reactions which

were a bit antiquated as well,” writes Mother Niscala. “One reaction which tended

towards the absurd was to put up quote

after quote about equating the guru as God, presumably to scare us into silence.”

 

Thakur Haridas Das agrees. “This is not unlike fanaticism in other religious institutions,”

he writes, “which impose doctrine by

physical force bolstered by unreasonable claims of infallibility.”

 

It seems, then, that quoting scripture is an absurd, fanatical scare tactic. But not

according to Srila Prabhupada: “Any question

that is put forward may be answered by quoting the authority, and that satisfies the

saner section. That is the system even in the

law court. The best lawyer gives evidence from the past judgment of the court without

taking much trouble to establish his case.

This is called the parampara system, and learned authorities follow it without

manufacturing rubbish interpretations.”

(SB2.10.51)

 

Now let us look at an absurd, scary passage: “Here it is said that advaitam harina

advaitad. So of course Advaita Acarya is

expansion of Visnu-tattva, but any acarya, he is to be considered identical with the

Lord. The Lord says that, that acaryam

mam vijaniyat: ‘One should understand the acarya...’ Acarya bhakti-samsanat. Acarya

means who is spreading pure

bhakti cult. ‘That acarya,’ Krsna says, ‘you should consider such acarya as Myself.’

Acaryam mam vijaniyat navamanyeta

karhicit, that... You cannot consider, ‘Yes, he's acarya, but not as good as Krsna.’ No.

Na avamanyeta. Don't deride in that

way. Then there will be falldown. Acaryam mam vijaniyat navamanyeta karhicit. And in

the Vedas also it is said, yasya

deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau: [sU 6.23] ‘Anyone who has got unflinching

faith in the Supreme Personality and

the similar faith in guru...’ Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau, tasyaite

kathita hy arthah: ‘All the Vedic

literature,’ prakasante, ‘becomes revealed simply by these two principles.’ Guru-krsna

krpa paya bhakti-lata-bija.”

(Mayapur Apr 6, 1975)

 

Mother Niscala pretends to accept this, but grudgingly. “Similarly, in regard to him being

free from mistakes,” she writes. “It is

in relation to the message of Krishna which he presents unadulterated, i. e. without

mistake. This is not to be accepted

blindly…”

 

Not blindly? “Arjuna understood,” says Srila Prabhupada. “Sarvam etam rtam manye:

‘Whatever You have said, I

understand. I have accepted it.’ So you accept it blindly even; then you are benefited.

We may not understand.” (Vindavana

Apr 8, 1976)

 

In spite of this, Mother Niscala still says that some teachings are good and some are

outdated. Not so, says Srila Prabhupada:

“In the Second Chapter Arjuna surrenders: ‘So far we have been talking as friends, but

now I accept You as my spiritual

master.’ Anyone following the principle in this line accepts the guru as Krsna, and the

student must represent Arjuna. Krsna is

speaking as the spiritual master of Arjuna, and Arjuna says, ‘Whatever You are saying I

accept.’ Read it like that—not: ‘I like

this, so I accept it; this I don't like, and so I reject it.’ Such reading is useless

nonsense.” (TYS, 7)

 

Mother Niscala offers to tell us how we should understand such things, but we still do

not know her qualifications. Why should

anyone listen to her? “A common man with all the four defects of human frailty is unable

to teach that which is worth hearing,”

says Srila Prabhupada. (BG 2.12)

 

Is Mother Niscala above the four defects? Is she repeating the teachings of some

paramhamsa whom only she knows about?

If it is neither, then everything is coming from her mind, a faulty teacher. “The mind is

always making plans with the ten

commanders [senses] to enjoy the material world,” writes Srila Prabhupada. (SB

4.26.1-3)

 

“Just like my Guru Maharaja used to say that while you get up from bed, you beat your

mind a hundred times with your shoe,

and when you go to bed, you beat your mind a hundred times with a broomstick.”

(Philosophy Discussions, Freud)

 

Of course, Mother Niscala does try to jump over and go to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to

prove that Srila Prabhupada is

wrong. And you had better agree with her: “If anyone can read it,” she says, “and still

believe that Srila Prabhupada can make

no mistakes, and that it is offensive to say so [that he can make mistakes], my hat off

to them [sic]. They take the prize for

irrational thinking.”

 

So Mother Niscala, our new paramahamsa, understands Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura better

than Srila Prabhupada does. In

fact, do we need Srila Prabhupada at all anymore, now that we have Mother Niscala to

explain the previous acaryas for us?

Srila Prabhupada answers: “I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak

to you the same thing. So this is

parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you

read some books, you cannot

understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You

cannot jump over to the superior guru,

neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.” (LA Dec 8, 1973)

 

Well maybe Srila Prabhupada is on Mother Niscala’s list of irrational thinkers. He is

certainly on Thakur Haridas das’s list of

ordinary people. “No jiva is infallible,” says Thakur Haridas das, “be he pope or guru or

whatever.”

 

Here is what Srila Prabhupada says: “A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot

commit any mistake.” (letter to

Janardana Apr 26, 1968)

 

“In our International Society, I am also holding the superior post: I am sitting in a chair,

and you are offering me garlands and

the best food. Why? Because you see a perfect man whom you can follow. That

mentality must be there. Everyone in the

society must be able to say, ‘Yes, here is a perfect man. Let him sit in a chair, and let us

all bow down and work like

menials.’” (JSD 7)

 

What’s more, Thakur Haridas das’s list of fallible people goes all the way up to Arjuna.

“Even a pure devotee like Arjuna,” he

writes, “greatest warrior in the world, proved fallible and was conquered by cowherds

when the Lord withdrew his potency.”

 

But Arjuna knew that his power came from Krsna. Therefore, Arjuna had perfect

knowledge and was infallible: “The military

strength of the Kauravas was like an ocean in which there dwelled many invincible

existences, and thus it was insurmountable.

But because of His friendship, I, seated on the chariot, was able to cross over it. And

only by His grace was I able to regain the

cows and also collect by force many helmets of the kings which were bedecked with

jewels that were sources of all brilliance.”

(SB 1.15.14)

 

And, by the way, who were the conquering cowherd men? Srila Prabhupada answers:

“So, in order to keep the words of the

great muni [Astavakra Muni], the Lord Himself kidnapped His wives from the protection of

Arjuna, otherwise they would have

at once vanished from the scene as soon as they were touched by the rogues.” (SB

1.15.20 purport)

 

As for Mother Niscala’s list of irrational thinkers, it seems to include Srila Visvanatha

Cakravarti Thakur and even Lord Krsna

Himself. Srila Prabhupada says: “Visvanatha Cakravarti said that ‘Guru is as good as God

by the verdict of the sastra.’

Saksad dharitvena samasta-sastraih. And Krsna says, acaryam mam vijaniyat: ‘Acarya

should be known as good as

Myself.’ Navamanyeta karhicit: ‘Never become disobedient to acarya.’ Na martya

buddhyasuyeta: ‘Never be envious of

the acarya, considering him to be an ordinary person.’” (Gorakhpur Feb 10, 1971)

 

Srila Prabhupada also gives a word of warning: “In spite of all these instructions, if one

considers the spiritual master an

ordinary human being, one is doomed. His study of the Vedas and his austerities and

penances for enlightenment are all useless,

like the bathing of an elephant…. The spiritual master is as good as the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, and therefore one

who is very serious about spiritual advancement must regard the spiritual master in this

way. Even a slight deviation from this

understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities.” (SMD

2.2)

 

Too bad, says Mother Niscala, Srila Prabhupada is downright wrong. “We do not have to

don blinkers whenever we see

evidence that Srila Prabhupada was mistaken in his judgment of women and other

things,” she says. “This is what it means to

not follow blindly. We do not need to convince ourselves that it is all a product of our

fertile imagination, or that we have

imperfect senses that are handing us faulty information.”

 

Oh? We do not have imperfect senses? Again, “A conditioned soul is hampered by four

defects: he is sure to commit mistakes,

he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are

imperfect.” (SB 4.18.5)

 

Maybe it is Mother Niscala should take off the blinkers. She should put her wounded ego

aside and look around at what Srila

Prabhupada has done and try to understand who it is she is criticizing: “The Lord has a

special potency by which He spreads

the Krsna consciousness movement,” writes Srila Prabhupada. “This is explained in the

Caitanya-caritamrta (Antya 7.11):

kali-kalera dharma-krsna-nama-sankirtana/ krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana. ‘One

cannot spread the holy name

of Krsna without being specifically empowered by Lord Krsna.’ A devotee who receives

this power from the Lord must be

considered very fortunate.” (CC Madhya 9.114)

 

Mother Niscala says that quoting scripture is nothing but a scare tactic, and this time

she is right. She should be as scared as

can be, and so should the rest of us. Denigrating Srila Prabhupada is not something to be

taken lightly: “My dear sir, I am not at

all afraid of the thunderbolt of King Indra, nor am I afraid of the serpentine, piercing

trident of Lord Siva. I do not care about

the punishment of Yamaraja, the superintendent of death, nor am I afraid of fire,

scorching sun, moon, wind, nor the weapons

of Kuvera. Yet I am afraid of offending a brahmana. I am very much afraid of this.”

(Maharaja Rahugana to Jada Bharata, SB

5.10.17)

 

And what is Mother Niscala all upset about anyway? Maybe it is because Srila

Prabhupada said women are less intelligent:

“But when he [Asvatthama] was brought before Srimati Draupadi, she, although

begrieved for the murder of her sons, and

although the murderer was present before her, could not withdraw the due respect

generally offered to a brahmana or to the

son of a brahmana. This is due to her mild nature as a woman. Women as a class are no

better than boys, and therefore they

have no discriminatory power like that of a man.” (SB 1.7.42)

 

Still, there’s no need to worry. Men can be less intelligent too: “In human society all over

the world there are millions and

billions of men and women, and almost all of them are less intelligent because they have

very little knowledge of spirit soul.” (SB

2.3.1)

 

And if you still don’t believe men can be less intelligent, just read the article by Thakur

Haridas das.

 

[nine9 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

So you are saying that Srila Prabhupada makes mistakes. You are no better than Mother Niscala. Just replace Mother Niscala with Amara das and this article is updated.

 

That's not a very nice thing to say. Of course guru can be fallible. It is possible for him to make a mistake. However, we don't often accuse him of such. There is only one being that possesses the six opulences in full. That is Krsna. Everyone else can only possess them to a limited degree. Therefore everyone else can make mistakes due to imperfect knowledger.

 

I think we should agree to disagree. You are far too extreme(ist) for my liking.

 

Mark

 

PS I might add that when Niscala mata says "Srila Prabhupada had imperfect senses", she probably means it not to attack Him, but rather in the way that everyone has imperfect senses and limited knowledge. You cannot refute this statement...otherwise you are claiming that Krsna is not Absolute!

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

This was in a private conversation...

Yeah, and I had some "private conversations" with Prabhupada too. He said all the devotees should hand their savings over to me. I can't figure out why they aren't following Prabhupada's instructions.

 

I have also heard this same story from two other sources, the point being, who can really say what Prabhupada would say and do?

The problem is we have a direct instruction from Srila Prabhupada not to believe what "Prabhupada said" unless it is recorded or in writing. Now this is his direct instruction on the matter, Some people don't want to obey Srila Prabhupada's direct instruction, and instead spread lies and rumours in the name of Srila Prabhupada simply because it conforms with their mental speculation.

 

They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said."

 

Letter from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to Omkara Dasi, 9/2/75

 

Thats what Prabhupada has direclt instructed. Don't disobey his instruction while claiming to be a disciple.

 

And how about these:

 

Prabhupada: But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that."

 

And I think this is Srila Prabhupada's own answer to bogus gurus adjusting the principles:

 

Prabhupada: And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupada said it." More misleading. Yes.

 

Yes, more misleading. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concotion. This is nonsense.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Amara, you don't want to accept what Srila Prabhupada actually said about the subject,which is on tape and in print,yet you posted some rumor about what he may or may not have said as a kind of proof for your position.

 

Do you see the folly of that approach?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by nine9:

That's not a very nice thing to say. Of course guru can be fallible.]

You don't like to hear the truth, do you?

 

Goodbye.

[amanpeter 0]

Those with little knowledge of what intimacy actually is, or even the desire to experience it personally, intentionally isolating themselves and avoiding emotional involvement with others, should not be expected to be taken seriously when they comment on relationships that they cannot help seeing in other than a sexual context. They are more to be pitied than condemned.

 

Srila Prabhupada was speaking of sex, not loving committed CELIBATE relationships between individuals, regardless of their sexual preferences. Witness the `vagina licking dialogue` quoted on VNN forums. "Let those who are without sin cast the first stone!"

 

`Disciples who use Sri Guru as a stick to beat others into submission, instead of on themselves, are only HURTING their guru, and thus ultimately all of us. What goes around comes around, prabhus...Peter/valaya

 

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-02-2001).]