Vaishnavam and Islam

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

A few people had compared both in this forum.

 

i don't know much about other religions, but from what i can deduct from reading and understanding is:

 

There are few similarities between them:

 

1) Both have a personal God

 

2) Both have a Holy Book

 

3) Both talk about surrender to God

 

4) Both talk about this life is insignificant

 

5) Both approve war for the Sake of God.

 

However i also found one major difference.

 

In Islam "Service to God" is the means and "Paradise" is the end

 

while in Vaishnavam "Service to God" is the means and the end, in fact they reject "Paradise" explicity in favour of "Service to God"

[Sephiroth 0]

1) Both have a personal God

There's no "personal" God ... God belongs to ALL. Saying they have personal God is like saying the Sun shines ONLY for them. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

2) Both have a Holy Book

Same as above. Gita is for ALL - believers AND disbelievers.

 

3) Both talk about surrender to God

Who said Muslims surrender anything to God?

 

If they did, then they couldn't be fighting in Middle-East against Jews over the Holy Land and just accept God giving Jews that piece of Land as acceptable.

 

Also, as you can see in the world today, Muslims are the most outdates and backward people in the world and they are also the most demanding of resources from the world. If they surrender themselves to God, they couldn't be beggers in the world. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

4) Both talk about this life is insignificant

 

Life IS significant. If they think it is insignificant, then it is like cursing God for the life He gave.

 

5) Both approve war for the Sake of God.

ONLY God fights for God ... NO ONE else.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

Since you are so much interested in arguments.....

 

Personal God , means a god with form and name, impresonal God is without them (Brahman concept)

 

i don't know what is "Holy Land"

 

i am talking about Islam, not Muslims.

 

Gita is not for Disbelivers, "This should be not be told to person lacking interest and in no case to him who finds fault with me"

[Sephiroth 0]

Personal God , means a god with form and name, impresonal God is without them (Brahman concept)

 

ALL God which known by Man HAS forms ... there is no exception. When you say God is like this and that, you are making "form" whether you like it or not.

 

i am talking about Islam, not Muslims.

Same ... Muslims follow what Islam taught them. Don't tell me you believe Muslims do not follow what Islam taught them. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Gita is not for Disbelivers, "This should be not be told to person lacking interest and in no case to him who finds fault with me"

 

Faithless people will have such fears (that disbelievers will find fault in their holy book and they need to defend them). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

In my website (which run by Muslims), I have translated the Gita and placed it for all to see. Anyone wants to find fault in it, can do so and I will explain to them.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

Dear "Holy Land" friend please understand there is difference between Theology and Practice

 

Example Koran Says "There is no complusion in religion" very few Muslims follow that, Koran Says "Don't have trade relation with nob-belivers" very few Muslims follow that (i had never seen one Muslim until now refusing to take me as their customer)

 

Gita Says, "This book is not for people who find fault with me" but you translate that and start explaining to people finding fault with it.

 

If Muslims (and You) are not following the Thelogy, it is not my problem, and i am not interested in correcting any body of you.

 

i was just making a Theological comparsion of the two belief systems, since some body had raised this topic earlier.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

There is no ALL God, there is only one God.

 

God is not known by Man, He should be realized by Man

 

Formless and Nameless aspect of God is as true as the God with Form(s) and Name(s), this Truth is vouched by many Yogis and Siddhas who had their direct experience, if you can't comprehend that aspect, it does not make their experience false.

[Guest guest]

seeing your thread Subham is clear in what (he/she) speaks. and other person is not clear he thinks that only one God exist.

 

I would like to clear your point saying one thing.

 

please don't bring religion and God.both are separate.

 

as God is everywhere its not muslims and hindus. its one man and he is supreme we are all the splits of him. man is God and God is man.

 

there is no separation. until you know this.

 

religion is kept only for maintaining discipline. like school and teaching.

 

Goal for all is not attaining God . but just to understand the truth. don't blindly read the scripture and make assumptions or don't go with inference.

 

am I right friends.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

You may be right or may not be right, i don't know.

 

But if "Man is God" then what is the need for "maintaining discpline" and "teaching" to him?

 

Please clarify...

[Guest guest]

"But if "Man is God" then what is the need for "maintaining discpline" and "teaching" to him?"

 

Man is God - in the sense that he is the split of God. he has the portion of God he has full qualities of God.which is intelligence.but the very nature of the body and mind denies it by saying i am not him.i am separate from him and i have to find him somewhere else....see the joke.

 

So one has to understand that he is limited with body and mind but unlimited with his intelligence which comes from the same source.

 

this is what all the saints and yogis are yelling that you understand no need to go anywhere he is within you.what ever you do it leads to god only and your very nature is god.

 

so where come the religion. Yes. religion makes you disciplined to understand the basic principles and nature of that intelligence. it is common to all.not particular religion.

 

now is it clear my friend.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

There are two sanskrit words "Brahaman" and "Bhagvan (or Ishvar)". Both of them translate into the same English word "GOD", so please let me know which God (B-God or I-God) you are referring to...

[Guest guest]

both Brahman and Bhagavan are synonyms.

 

Bhagvan is what you see outside in others and Brahman is within you. there is not difference only the spelling differs.

 

he is in you. search in yourself.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

As per my understanding , Brahmam and Bhagavan are not synonomus.

 

"Eko Brahamam Anekam Budham" -- means one Brahmam manisfets itself as infinite life-forms and one of that life form is Bhagvan.

 

It is like You, Your Parents, Teacher, Friends, Brothers are all united in One common Factor -- "The Human", however all are not same, in fact not even equal.

 

Same way all the manifested life forms , God (Bhagvan), Demi Gods, Asuras, Human, Animals, Birds, Trees .... are united in One common Factor -- "The Brahamam", however all are not same, in fact not even equal.

 

i think this is the reason for the term "Vasudeva Kudamabam" , i.e., the entire species of this universe is a single family.

[Guest guest]

 

My friend open your eyes. you are seeing only the relations and the body with mind. please remove these things its a hurdle for upliftment.you will see only the forms as it is till end.

 

just treat God in you and others you shall see him everywhere. its you seeing that trees,flowers,humans,dogs,animals all are in family you know these are all in one. that is God. thats why i say that God is in you and you are in God.

 

if you see it with your heart then you will realise. just shut the mind for a second the senses will never ever make you realise the God in you. you will be quoting only the scriptures and texts...but won't realise the truth.

 

scriptures are just a guides not a solution.

 

as you were young your parents and teachers would have said that sun raises in east and sets in west. also you must have scored for these questions if answered correctly. but now imagine the same. what is the truth...sun never rises and sets.it is there.like wise

 

so just keep the scripts and texts aside and open your heart to see him now.God is not in scriptures. but he is in the reader who reads the scriptures.

 

understood my friend.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

If God is in the reader, then why does he even need to read the scriptures?

 

as of now, i still believe that , There is only one "Brahamam" which manifests itself as infinite life forms , one of the forms is Bhagvan (the most powerful and intelligent form of all the manifested)

 

Also the "Brahamam" does not decide which soul would get which life-form , every soul should work their own Karma to get their life-form (i.e., even God (Bhagavan) has to work (and keep working )his own way to become Bhagavan)

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

What you have understood is correct 100%. as you have read a lot of books it seems. and you flow in that terms.Good its very hard to get a person like you.

 

God never asks to read you. its your mind which thinks if it reads then it will get God.

 

God says i am not in text. i am in you. to know yourself you must not read , reading is enough ..now analyse yourself.

 

just ask yourself one question who you are? yourself? and what you are doing here? the final answer will be.....

 

you are God himself. you are here to make others understand that he is within everybody.

 

karma is nothing but the action with the mind involved. when you die. you just remove your body and you are still there. no body will come to rescue or give you scriptures to read after death. but yes your mind shall tell what you have learned....at that time just imagine if your mind tells to read scriptures to attain God. where will you go. you will come again to earthly world to read scriptrues. like this you goon read read and read....just by thinking that you are God . after death your mind will tell you are God and now get along with God....there is no purpose for you in eartly world.... atleast now you understand you are God.and do your work as if its Godly.

 

"every soul should work their own Karma to get their life-form (i.e., even God (Bhagavan) has to work (and keep working )his own way to become Bhagavan) ".

 

i think you still relate the God as a Position and he has to maintain that position else he will fall and some body else will come ...ha ha....please don't give him position he is everywhere and we see only him in high post as if he is far high above sky. its not true. he is in all loka......don't tell he has to reap his karma . he is doing it by being you. so do the given task.

 

understood my friend.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

i think all this confusion, is because "Brahamam" and "Bhagavan" are translated to "GOD"

 

While i have no problem claiming myself as Brahamam (Aham Brahama asmi) , i can't claim myself as Bhagavan.

 

in Vishnu Shasranama, Vishnu is called "Para Pithamaha" - Great Grandfather , while Brahama is called Pithamaha - Grand Father.

 

unless some body can claim my great grand father and me are the one and same person, i can't think any body can claim "i am bhagvan and bhagvan is me"

 

of course most of the human can claim , both me and my great grand father are human (except Darwin and his followers) , in same way we can claim both me and Bhagvan are manifesations of Brahmam (and in spiritually advanced individuals like Shankrachraya, they can claim we both are Brahamam)

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

it is not my statement, He tells in Gita

 

" I always engage in action, even if for a second I don't work all this world will perish "

 

so it is like a one family, with God (Bhagvan) at the "Head" position , with lot of sub-families, each one with their own "Heads" (Indira for Demi-Gods, Manu for Man, Iravatha for Elephants, Garuda for Birds, etc., etc.,)

 

Each member of the family should obey and serve his own Head as well as the ultimate Head (God(Bhagvan))

 

Of course if a member of the family does not serve him a (good) family head does not get annoyed or starts killing

them , but it would definitely affect the member (and even family) in the long run.

 

Other than Serving Him, if you also realize that all this whole family rests on single Unity, "Brahamam", then you become wise (and still keep serving the Head - in fact the highest type of devotee as stated in Gita)

 

However if you had not realized , but still serving him, you are still considered a devotee of Him.

 

But instead if you start telling, "I am the Head of this whole family and the Head of this whole family is me", you may just create confusion....

 

[Guest guest]

 

very well said and you have very good understanding.

 

i just want to say that God exist in you and me and we are Gods. position of God is not high or low.

 

he resides in all of our hearts. just how we keep treat him as friend,teacher or fellow member or your head is again our wish and mind capability.

 

why you are making him a head rather bring him as your friend and love him. he needs your love just love. if you make him as a group head....then your mind can only see him as a far away person who has special quality which you don't have.

 

as far my understanding and its that God is with everybody he is not sitting somewhere to lead. but for sure he guides us with our known way. and it goes on till we know him. he is you beauty , he is your choice, he is given freedom to understand him....its your way then no body can change it in your sense he is the leader.that is true. in my way he is my love and me myself. that is also true.

 

 

Krishna will make you understand this.

[Guest guest]

 

I have been reading Vishiva's previous posts and you have been stressing and reinforcing the point that GOD is within you and we have to realize HIM and that scriptures are only as a 'guide'.

 

By the way, i accept Subham's post about the 2 features of GOD- one as BHAGAVAN in person Himself and one as Brahman. The feature you are talking about is, i guess, is the Paramatma feature. You are saying we should realize the Paramatma feature who is within every living entity.

 

However, my question to you is, how will you realize the GOD within you. Also your statement that 'he is not sitting somewhere to lead' contradicts the Supremacy of GOD. God can be within and without and HE can exist in many forms.

 

So, the ultimate form of GOD is the Bhagavan feature who is a person and lives in Goloka Vrndavan and enjoys with His devotees.

 

Anyways, my question, i guess, is how can you realize the GOD within, are you realized, if not, do you know anybody else who has realised the 'within' GOD? What is the procedure and process to do that realization.

 

If seeing GOD within is that simple, everyone on this planet in this age of Kali will be in the state of bliss not caring for material stuff. But, then why no one , atleast of who i know, has seen the 'within' GOD.

 

So, talking about the 'within' GOD is easy but actualy realizing HIM is practically impossible in the age of KALI and that is why it is recommended we serve that personal GOD (Bhagavan feature) with unalloyed devotion and GOD happy with our service will slowly reveal Himself. In other words, instead of doing our own search, GOD will reveal Himself based on our sincere service to HIM.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

 

nicely said dear friend anand!

 

that is true what you have said. yuga.

 

leave everything why you care of others when god rests in you. God is in you. he is in everybody. just a millisecond of him shall reveal himself to you.it is not a great time.

 

but first accept that god is in you. may be you are good or bad to your decision but still he is in you. he wants to open yourself to him and be a friend to him and love him

 

 

just tell me. if you are loved by somebody . will you hate him or keep him away or just make him a leader.for sure you will love him . Right.

 

thats the case . god is in you and love him first . thats what he want. others will also follow you.

 

when you keep him away and only for specific time you call him and pray god. that is foolishness. just ask your self. that will solve your question of how to search god with in.

 

it is your duty to search him. no body can help it. but i can tell for sure he is still in you and all. may be yuga yuga yuga will pass. when you come to understand you will not search him somewhere. but you will search inside you.

 

just take this no body shall tell you this truth. they will only show the path you alone can search the path which is easy.

 

yourself you are in battlefield and you have to fight for him. he is there always to guide you.

 

you can't fight battle for 10 mts and 20 mts a day. its all 24 hrs and 365 days and all life you have to fight. if you take gaurd of him in yourself he will come to you.

 

so start loving you first. that is the first option for god realisation.

 

body and mind will never accept what i say. come out of it and then think. you will know.

 

let krishna in you reveal.

[barney 0]

It's a pitty not all would understand the real truth. Anyway, sooner or later they will even if it takes another 6 births. Some ignorant people are searching for God in some place they call haven not realizing that HE is within them. As you have said the Sun neither rises nor sets. It is fixed in one place but it is the rotation of the earth that looks to us as though it is rising and setting.

 

Many are holding on the the scriptures which have have hidden meaning but simple minded people take it on surface value. We have the brain to think and explore but no, they would rather let the brain rot and believe everything that is in the scriptures. But do not worry as all these will change when the real truth is known to them soon.

[maadhav 0]

allah of islam is impersonal god, no face, no form.

 

a muslim, per koran, strives to go to haven

to enjoy sex with 72 hauris (virgins>.

this produces jeehadis and suicide bombers.

how the virgins remain virgins after 2000 years of jeehadis

using them in haven?

they do not have answer for it.

 

muslims love sex, vaishnavas dont.

 

muslims convert by force, vaishnavda dont.

muslims are meat eaters, vaishnavas are not.

 

vaishnavs sing, muslims are supposed to not sing.

 

[Guest guest]

You say

"that is why it is recommended we serve that personal GOD (Bhagavan feature) with unalloyed devotion and GOD happy with our service will slowly reveal Himself"

 

Perhaps you mean surrender to god. Surrender is applicable regardless of

-Kali Yuga

-Popular myth of practicality

-popular perception of what's not simple

 

This whole world is god's. Kaliyuga is gods, Myths are perception in minds which is a factor of prakrithi that's god's, perceptions are god's anyway.

 

Let's Arjuna didn't achieve wisdom from questioning krishna. Maybe he was already wise or he achieved some place else. In BG he questions and the and it leads as follows:

-initial parts are Nector of wisdom & dynamism from Krishna

-After the mid-course, krishna acknowledges to arjuna and suggests a path for those who consider inner realization as difficult.

-None of the above work, Arjuna get's ready to act only when krishna shows him in his vishwa roopa that Arjuna will win the way if he were to fight the war.

-To perceive Arjuna surrendered truely to Krishna before, during and after BG is a very subjective thing. What's clear is that he was paranoid and worried of mundane stuff, and there could not have been surrender.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

Fresh after the week-end

 

"why you are making him a head"

 

i am not making him the Head, i don't have that power to make Him anything, He is the Head and He was kind enought to make me his family member.

 

 

"he needs your love just love"

 

And service, i.e., a loving service, not a fear ful service, not a dis-interested service, not a crooked service, not a half-hearted service, but highly efficient ande fully loving service.

 

Most of the confusion can be traced to Maha Vakya of Adi Shankarachraya:

 

"Brahmo Satyam, Jagat Nityham"

 

which is generally (mis?) interperted as Brahaman is True and the universe is False, but i think the real meaning is "Brahaman is eternal while Universe is Transient"

 

Also further i think "Brahaman" is not some abstract pheonomen, which is subjected to our own fancy interperations.

 

Rather Brahaman is (or most probably is) a "Gentic Pool" from which each species dervies its own "Genetic Pool". This seems to be matching to the current research, since they say, there must be a Common and a single Genetic Pool from which all Humans derive their identity, otherwise the universally changing Physical (taller...), mental (passionate...) traits can't be explained.

 

Of Course Hinduism has this concept for long time and is called "Manu" (the genetic pool of Man). All the characterstics of Men (including gender), from Birth to Death, can change through their life, except for Human identity, and the Human identity is based on that Genetic Pool. Similarly for an individual soul, even species changes from its creation to dissolution (man, animal, bird...) but it has a common Inidividual "existence" , which is the based on the one single Genetic Pool, called the Brahamam (AHAM)

 

Note in Gita, Bhagavan also refers to Brahamam as a "Substance" (no body has the power to destroy the substance) not as an "idea"

 

And also note that scriptures are the true guide, until self realization is achieved as stated in Gita, "Those ignorant, untotured men who donot follow scriptures don't view things right"

 

So you can throw away scriptures only AFTER self-realization, not BEFORE it.

 

[vishiva 0]

Dear Subham, very nice . when i see your text it seems i am half done with Bhagawat geetha. you have crushed and put to by heart. that is really great! I can't do that really.

 

but can you pls tell me.

 

how to throw away the scriptures.as you have owned it with liking.

 

"So you can throw away scriptures only AFTER self-realization, not BEFORE it."

 

 

realize God in yourself. the scriptures may be the right path for you to get lead.but to know when to throw you alone have to execute. else you go one read and read with out end.open your eyes.he is in You.

 

let krishna be with you always.