Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:20 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dennis_travis33 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:44 AM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dennis_travis33 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:14 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > continuity, > > > > > is > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > of > > > > all life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > that > > > > > it > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing that > > > does > > > or > > > has or sees. > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, and > > > give > > > it > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > > such " show a belief in it, and give it power it never has had.... " is > > due > > to > > ego.....forever restless in nature.... > > > > Marc > > > > It is not due to ego. The belief IS the " as if " ego itself. > > -geo- > > > > > > nobody knows.... > > except the ego. > > ... > > nobody there who need such " imaginary knowledge " (ego) for real...anyway... > > Marc > > It seems that sometimes imagination seems to issue from some separate > imaginer. > -geo- Okay, then. No separate imaginer to address. Just noticing the imagining. Awareness notices. Awareness is. No one to tell about this. No evasion of anything. Awareness of the fear one is. Awareness of the suffering and the attempt to evade. No " other " to address in this. - D - Okay then?? -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:02:11 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:26 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dennis_travis33 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 9:19 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dennis_travis33 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 8:43 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > dennis_travis33 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:44 AM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > dennis_travis33 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:14 AM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the > > > > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > all life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own > > > > > > > relationship > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing > > > > > > that > > > > > > does > > > > > > or > > > > > > has or sees. > > > > > > > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, > > > > > > and > > > > > > give > > > > > > it > > > > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such " show a belief in it, and give it power it never has had.... " > > > > > is > > > > > due > > > > > to > > > > > ego.....forever restless in nature.... > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > It is not due to ego. The belief IS the " as if " ego itself. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody knows.... > > > > > > > > except the ego. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > nobody there who need such " imaginary knowledge " (ego) for > > > > real...anyway... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > It seems that sometimes imagination seems to issue from some > > > > separate > > > > imaginer. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > imaginer " geo " , > > > > > > " geo " Is....all this nice imaginations, words and worlds in here, > > > inclusive > > > > > > there are indeed no seperations between " geo " and " geo " ... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > To the reader " geo " is an image. > > > To the writer it is a means to facilitate commucation. They are not > > > the > > > same. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > reader and writer " geo " are imaginary > > > > also reader and writer " marc " are imaginary > > > > .... > > > > they get real, when there is a " reader or writer " " geo or marc " reading > > or > > writing.... > > > > ... > > > > they disappear when there is silence....again > > > > means, when real Self appears, again. > > > > Marc > > > > There is no need for fragmentation in order to write or do anything. IT > > is > > always doing IT. > > -geo- > > > > > this your " IT " is just " geo " who is allergic when it comes to > fragmentations.....or differentiation between real and unreal. > > " geo " (or this your imaginary " IT " ), of course, is always the cause of > fragmentations.....because thats the nature of imaginations & fictions like > " geo " ... > > > Marc Yes. And this is not aimed at a " geo " but at any identifiable thought-stream, so to speak. The nature of any thought-stream with attempted self-continuity of themes, feelings, processes is to split - because that is the basis for any sense of continuity it has. Thought requires apparent division for a sense of continuity. -- D -- Not all and any thinking process needs fragmentation to be. Very simply: thought is also IT. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:02:11 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:14 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:49 AM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > dan330033 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 8:22 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Tim G. > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 3:01 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is a survival program and abhors the idea that > > > > > > it > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > continuity, > > > > > is > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. In > > > > > the > > > > > other > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > that it > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > It doesn't do anything. > > > > > > > > - Dan - > > > > > > > > The sense of self? why do you say that? Of course it does. It is a > > > > sourece > > > > of fear, anxiety, anger, illusion. illness.... > > > > Profound fear for inexistent causes, great anguish for fear of > > > > loosing > > > > imagined stuff.....all this affects the body/mind... I really dont > > > > get > > > > you > > > > here... > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does a mirage exist?......yes and no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Suffering hurts. > > > > Calling it a mirage is an attempt to escape. > > > > - D - > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the fearful > imagination of the ego. > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > toombaru > > Exactly. Dan has itchy fingers in ealry mornings > -geo- Nice side-step. You will go on the same way, Toom will go on the same way, but I won't be pointing it out to you. It is the way of the world. - D - Pointing it out? Have coffee dan.. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 13:16:53 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:28 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:26 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > > of > > > > > > all > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > > that > > > > > > has > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > human > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > observer.....that > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner observer? > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > that > > > > is > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > means > > > > I > > > > am not it. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biiiiiingo! > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > That is the whole " point " is it not? > > > The seeing of the manifested - as a whole - suddenly as some quantum snap > > > evaporates any observer into the empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > no-thingness. > > > -geo- > > > > No, it is being the suffering without identifying with it. > > > > Not escaping into some never-never land of not-manifested no-thingness. > > > > The suffering itself is the emptiness. > > > > -- D -- > > > > " it is being the suffering without identifying with it. " > > In what manner that is different from " empty not-knowable non-manifested > > no-thingness. " ? > > Is any of those expressions identical with it? > > -geo- > > Just be it. > > You'll never explain it or express it. > > - D - > Trying to be it is about as hard as trying not to be it. LOL toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:34 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > That is the whole " point " is it not? > > The seeing of the manifested - as a whole - suddenly as some quantum > > snap > > evaporates any observer into the empty not-knowable non-manifested > > no-thingness. > > > > In other words. Fully objectivating the manifested realizes the > > subjective > > non-manifested - and not the other way around. > -geo- > > I don't understand this one. > -toomba- > > I meant..dont try to find the non-manifested subjective because that is > objectivating it. See the objective instead and the subjective is there. > In fact then all is subjective or objective - the same side. > -geo- > The self cannot do that and maintain its location. One can't have IT both ways. LOL toombaru Exactly. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:02:11 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:39 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 8:25 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no continuity, is > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful of > > > > all > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea that > > > > > it > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing that does or > > > has or sees. > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, and give it > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > The sense of self? why do you say that? Of course it does. It is a sourece > > > of fear, anxiety, anger, illusion. illness.... > > > > The attempt to establish something that is the source of fear, *is* fear. > > > > >Profound fear for inexistent > > > causes, great anguish for fear of loosing imagined stuff.....all this > > > affects the body/mind... > > > > There aren't any final explanations for the fear you are - there is simply > > being it. > > > > This is not for the squeamish. > > > > The fear of death is like a poison the alters the > > > organic balance of the body/mind delicate balance. What about jealousy, > > > panic...lots and lots of more reactions that shoot wrong enzims, > > > inapropriate hormones, harmfull discharges all over the organism..I really > > > dont get you here... > > > > Fear is much more than the biological observations you've learned about. > > > > It is the basis for the establishment of the science that produced these > > observations about the biochemistry of fear. > > > > > PS - Not the inexistent self - of course - but the sense of " as if " . > > > > Sure - but learning about the " as if " nature of human nature, is itself an > > " as if. " > > > > In other words, there is no refuge available from fear and suffering, and > > the pain humans inflict on each other, by surmising an " as if " condition > > involved. Learning that this is a dream, is itself learning in a dream. > > > > The attraction for the dream is to attempt to get away into a reality that > > can be controlled somehow. > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > All I said is that living with the imagined center harms the organism: the > > need for fforts from morning till night and night till morning. > > You are talking of something else. > > -geo- > > Not really. > > But you think so. > > Do you understand the fear you are? > > - D - > Now.....that's a double scoop of scary! :-0 toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:08 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:31 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > is > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > of > > > > > all > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > that > > > > > has > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > > vastness > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > human > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > observer.....that > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner observer? > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > that > > > is > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > means > > > I > > > am not it. > > > -geo- > > > > It is you. > > > > There is no one else to be this, other than you. > > > > - D - > > > > It is the same. But you said no - so you missed it. > > The world is my empty patterns, there is no other. The same. > > -geo- > > No, you got it wrong, Geo, and I got it right. > > There aren't two of us. > > See, I know that. > > How come you don't? > > LOL. > > Smiles and wishes for a great day - > > - Dan > > Yes...it depends what you want from all this. Sometimes it is good to use > words with care and attention > -geo- > > > > > > Not when it is apprehended that the sense of self emerges concurrently with the words....and that the imaginary entity really has no responsibility for what spills out of their mouth. :-) toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > Tim G. > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > -tim- > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > -geo- > > Nope. > > There is an end to analysis. > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > One is the suffering. > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > Go figure. > > -- D -- > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > -geo- > > > > > > > How can " you " be anything? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:08 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:31 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > is > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > of > > > > > all > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > that > > > > > has > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > idea > > > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > to > > > > > vastness > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > human > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > observer.....that > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > observer? > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > that > > > is > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > means > > > I > > > am not it. > > > -geo- > > > > It is you. > > > > There is no one else to be this, other than you. > > > > - D - > > > > It is the same. But you said no - so you missed it. > > The world is my empty patterns, there is no other. The same. > > -geo- > > No, you got it wrong, Geo, and I got it right. > > There aren't two of us. > > See, I know that. > > How come you don't? > > LOL. > > Smiles and wishes for a great day - > > - Dan > > Yes...it depends what you want from all this. Sometimes it is good to use > words with care and attention > -geo- > > > > > > Not when it is apprehended that the sense of self emerges concurrently with the words....and that the imaginary entity really has no responsibility for what spills out of their mouth. :-) toombaru I get the idea...but it is possible to think , speak, imagine without any imaginary entity. Nothing falls of the pans borders - or everything. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:22:32 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:23 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > Tim G. > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > -tim- > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > -geo- > > Nope. > > There is an end to analysis. > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > One is the suffering. > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > Go figure. > > -- D -- > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > -geo- > > > > > > > How can " you " be anything? toombaru Yes..you see...there is a funny thing that happens here, no? At one point I am everything - no doubt about that. Everything that falls upon the senses are me. But then ..........if I am able to look at that....I am not that. I am gone.... -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:24:33 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:12 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:28 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:26 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > > observer.....that > > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > > > observer? > > > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > > means > > > > > I > > > > > am not it. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biiiiiingo! > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > That is the whole " point " is it not? > > > > The seeing of the manifested - as a whole - suddenly as some quantum > > > > snap > > > > evaporates any observer into the empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > > no-thingness. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > No, it is being the suffering without identifying with it. > > > > > > Not escaping into some never-never land of not-manifested no-thingness. > > > > > > The suffering itself is the emptiness. > > > > > > -- D -- > > > > > > " it is being the suffering without identifying with it. " > > > In what manner that is different from " empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > no-thingness. " ? > > > Is any of those expressions identical with it? > > > -geo- > > > > Just be it. > > > > You'll never explain it or express it. > > > > - D - > > > > Trying to be it is about as hard as trying not to be it. > > LOL > > toombaru > > Well...I suppose there is no way to put the nature of this " action " that > ends in non-fragmentation in words. > -geo- > > > > > > > > Sometimes I try talking with my lips glued shut. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:08 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:31 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > > of > > > > > > all > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > > that > > > > > > has > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > > to > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > human > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > observer.....that > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > > observer? > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > that > > > > is > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > means > > > > I > > > > am not it. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > It is you. > > > > > > There is no one else to be this, other than you. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > It is the same. But you said no - so you missed it. > > > The world is my empty patterns, there is no other. The same. > > > -geo- > > > > No, you got it wrong, Geo, and I got it right. > > > > There aren't two of us. > > > > See, I know that. > > > > How come you don't? > > > > LOL. > > > > Smiles and wishes for a great day - > > > > - Dan > > > > Yes...it depends what you want from all this. Sometimes it is good to use > > words with care and attention > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not when it is apprehended that the sense of self emerges concurrently with > the words....and that the imaginary entity really has no responsibility for > what spills out of their mouth. > > :-) > > toombaru > > I get the idea...but it is possible to think , speak, imagine without any > imaginary entity. Nothing falls of the pans borders - or everything. > -geo- > > > > > > Nope. The imaginary entity and the words are the same phenomenon. For it.....there is nothing beyond the objectified world. Try to think of something that doesn't have a name. The entity is map that it tries to explore. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:23 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > Tim G. > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > > -tim- > > > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > > -geo- > > > > Nope. > > > > There is an end to analysis. > > > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > > > One is the suffering. > > > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > > > Go figure. > > > > -- D -- > > > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How can " you " be anything? > > toombaru > > Yes..you see...there is a funny thing that happens here, no? At one point I > am everything - no doubt about that. Everything that falls upon the senses > are me. > But then ..........if I am able to look at that....I am not that. I am > gone.... > -geo- > > > > > > Yeah.....that's called enlightenment. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:37 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:23 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > Tim G. > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > > -tim- > > > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > > -geo- > > > > Nope. > > > > There is an end to analysis. > > > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > > > One is the suffering. > > > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > > > Go figure. > > > > -- D -- > > > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How can " you " be anything? > > toombaru > > Yes..you see...there is a funny thing that happens here, no? At one point > I > am everything - no doubt about that. Everything that falls upon the senses > are me. > But then ..........if I am able to look at that....I am not that. I am > gone.... > -geo- > > > > > > Yeah.....that's called enlightenment. toombaru NOOOOOOOooooooooo........ please...leave me out of that!!!! Let me stay in the darkness. I prefer this side of it. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:39:38 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:36 PM Re: No-communication Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:08 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:31 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most > > > > > > successful > > > > > > of > > > > > > all > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body > > > > > > but > > > > > > that > > > > > > has > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > > to > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > human > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > observer.....that > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > > observer? > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > that > > > > is > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > means > > > > I > > > > am not it. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > It is you. > > > > > > There is no one else to be this, other than you. > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > It is the same. But you said no - so you missed it. > > > The world is my empty patterns, there is no other. The same. > > > -geo- > > > > No, you got it wrong, Geo, and I got it right. > > > > There aren't two of us. > > > > See, I know that. > > > > How come you don't? > > > > LOL. > > > > Smiles and wishes for a great day - > > > > - Dan > > > > Yes...it depends what you want from all this. Sometimes it is good to > > use > > words with care and attention > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not when it is apprehended that the sense of self emerges concurrently > with > the words....and that the imaginary entity really has no responsibility > for > what spills out of their mouth. > > :-) > > toombaru > > I get the idea...but it is possible to think , speak, imagine without any > imaginary entity. Nothing falls of the pans borders - or everything. > -geo- > > > > > > Nope. The imaginary entity and the words are the same phenomenon. For it.....there is nothing beyond the objectified world. Try to think of something that doesn't have a name. The entity is map that it tries to explore. toombaru Dont go for the " no " too fast. All and everything, without exception, is consciousness/world. That includes words, imagination, sex, plot, nexus, names, no-names, maps, look.....all changing arisings are over there. But none of those is the unchanging. -geo- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 11/8/2009 14:39:38 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:37 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:23 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Tim G. > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > > > -tim- > > > > > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > There is an end to analysis. > > > > > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > > > > > One is the suffering. > > > > > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > > > > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > > > > > Go figure. > > > > > > -- D -- > > > > > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How can " you " be anything? > > > > toombaru > > > > Yes..you see...there is a funny thing that happens here, no? At one point > > I > > am everything - no doubt about that. Everything that falls upon the senses > > are me. > > But then ..........if I am able to look at that....I am not that. I am > > gone.... > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah.....that's call enlightenment. > > toombaru > > NOOOOOOOooooooooo........ please...leave me out of that!!!! Let me stay in > the darkness. I prefer this side of it. > -geo- > > > > > > > I told you that this is not what you had in mind. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:36 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > toombaru2006 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:20 PM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:08 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > dan330033 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:31 AM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > > observer.....that > > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > > > observer? > > > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > > means > > > > > I > > > > > am not it. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > It is you. > > > > > > > > There is no one else to be this, other than you. > > > > > > > > - D - > > > > > > > > It is the same. But you said no - so you missed it. > > > > The world is my empty patterns, there is no other. The same. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > No, you got it wrong, Geo, and I got it right. > > > > > > There aren't two of us. > > > > > > See, I know that. > > > > > > How come you don't? > > > > > > LOL. > > > > > > Smiles and wishes for a great day - > > > > > > - Dan > > > > > > Yes...it depends what you want from all this. Sometimes it is good to > > > use > > > words with care and attention > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not when it is apprehended that the sense of self emerges concurrently > > with > > the words....and that the imaginary entity really has no responsibility > > for > > what spills out of their mouth. > > > > :-) > > > > toombaru > > > > I get the idea...but it is possible to think , speak, imagine without any > > imaginary entity. Nothing falls of the pans borders - or everything. > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > The imaginary entity and the words are the same phenomenon. > > For it.....there is nothing beyond the objectified world. > > Try to think of something that doesn't have a name. > > The entity is map that it tries to explore. > > toombaru > > Dont go for the " no " too fast. All and everything, without exception, is > consciousness/world. That includes words, imagination, sex, plot, nexus, > names, no-names, maps, look.....all changing arisings are over there. But > none of those is the unchanging. > -geo- > > > > > > > A small sign over the door: " Unchanging Room " toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:09 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:28 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > toombaru2006 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:26 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > > of > > > > > > all > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > > that > > > > > > has > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship > > > > > > to > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > human > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > observer.....that > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner > > > > observer? > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > that > > > > is > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > means > > > > I > > > > am not it. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biiiiiingo! > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > That is the whole " point " is it not? > > > The seeing of the manifested - as a whole - suddenly as some quantum > > > snap > > > evaporates any observer into the empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > no-thingness. > > > -geo- > > > > No, it is being the suffering without identifying with it. > > > > Not escaping into some never-never land of not-manifested no-thingness. > > > > The suffering itself is the emptiness. > > > > -- D -- > > > > " it is being the suffering without identifying with it. " > > In what manner that is different from " empty not-knowable non-manifested > > no-thingness. " ? > > Is any of those expressions identical with it? > > -geo- > > Just be it. > > You'll never explain it or express it. > > - D - > > I look at suffering, consciousness, the world...and ask: what is " I " ? > I am none of those. If I can look at them I am not them. > -geo- Apparently, you experience looking at something that is other than you. Where do you think it comes from, somewhere else? Do you actually experience some kind of distance between the looker and the looked at? -- D -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:12 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:39 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 8:25 PM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no continuity, > > > > > is > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful of > > > > all > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > that > > > > > it > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing that does > > > or > > > has or sees. > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, and give > > > it > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > The sense of self? why do you say that? Of course it does. It is a > > > sourece > > > of fear, anxiety, anger, illusion. illness.... > > > > The attempt to establish something that is the source of fear, *is* fear. > > > > >Profound fear for inexistent > > > causes, great anguish for fear of loosing imagined stuff.....all this > > > affects the body/mind... > > > > There aren't any final explanations for the fear you are - there is simply > > being it. > > > > This is not for the squeamish. > > > > The fear of death is like a poison the alters the > > > organic balance of the body/mind delicate balance. What about jealousy, > > > panic...lots and lots of more reactions that shoot wrong enzims, > > > inapropriate hormones, harmfull discharges all over the organism..I > > > really > > > dont get you here... > > > > Fear is much more than the biological observations you've learned about. > > > > It is the basis for the establishment of the science that produced these > > observations about the biochemistry of fear. > > > > > PS - Not the inexistent self - of course - but the sense of " as if " . > > > > Sure - but learning about the " as if " nature of human nature, is itself an > > " as if. " > > > > In other words, there is no refuge available from fear and suffering, and > > the pain humans inflict on each other, by surmising an " as if " condition > > involved. Learning that this is a dream, is itself learning in a dream. > > > > The attraction for the dream is to attempt to get away into a reality that > > can be controlled somehow. > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > All I said is that living with the imagined center harms the organism: the > > need for fforts from morning till night and night till morning. > > You are talking of something else. > > -geo- > > Not really. > > But you think so. > > Do you understand the fear you are? > > - D - > > I am nothing objectivable. How could I? > -geo- " Objectifiable " ... So, you think there are objects you are looking at? And you think fear is some kind of object separate from you and other than you? - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > One form of " suffering " is substantial. > > > A broken leg hurts. > > > One form is imaginary. > > > Losing one's lover.......hurts. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > That distinction is itself imaginary and insubstantial. > > > > - D - > > > > > > > What image isn't? > > We're just shootin shadows here. > > .......sniffin and markin the trees......out on the edge of the known........ > > > :-) > > > > > toombaru How does a shadow shoot at shadows? With some kind of shadow gun? Firing bursts of shadow-bullets? That is sure to work. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:12 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > dan330033 > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:41 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > is > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > of > > > > > all life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > > that it > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing that > > > > does > > > > or has or sees. > > > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, and > > > > give > > > > it power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there something other than " it " speaking through you? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > That's a silly question that can't be answered. > > > > Who would care about such a trivial concept as that? > > > > Trying to figure out who is really speaking? > > > > That is obviously nonsense, as any attempt to define what is speaking > > requires someone to do that defining. > > > > Getting involved in such games is a mental preoccupation to avoid being > > what > > one actually is. > > > > The evasion is very close to home. > > > > It is not out there with someone else. > > > > - Dan - > > > > You are not too well today dan. Who else could be doing enything? > > -geo- > > You are not doing too well today. > > There is no one else. > > -- D -- > > " That's a silly question that can't be answered. Who would care about such a > trivial concept as that? Trying to figure out who is really speaking? " > Where is the trivial concept? > -geo- Wherever you think it is. Your question is trivial. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:15 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > Tim G. > > Nisargadatta > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:51 AM > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > There is physical suffering and there is suffering induced by the > > > fearful imagination of the ego. > > > > > > They have been given the same name........but they are not the same. > > > > Yes, let's split suffering in two, now. > > > > The more bits and pieces we can get, the better. > > > > The more thought can divide, the more 'in control' it feels. > > -tim- > > > > Nop. There are real sufferings and imagined ones. > > -geo- > > Nope. > > There is an end to analysis. > > The need to make the distinction between real and imagined ends. > > One is the suffering. > > One stops evading and thinking one has things figured out. > > It is the end of having anything figured out. > > Go figure. > > -- D -- > > How can I be the suffering that I am looking at? > -geo- Geo - There is no distance apart between looker and looked at. The attempt to establish a distance apart involves a wish not to be suffering, to dismiss suffering, to separate from it, to be able to control it. When the attempt to maintain distance breaks down, one is the suffering. One is one's experiencing. The experiencer is what is experienced. There is no way to end the thought-involved division between subject and object, except for the apparent continuity of thought to " break down. " This ends any sense of a distance between observer and observed. One is the suffering, and the suffering is not separated from the awareness of it. One is every aspect of the present perception, the perceptual moment as it is. It has never not been this way. However, thought invented a scenario with a false distance that never actually was there. Thought, by attempting continuity and maintaining a sense of reality and the known, constructed an avoidance mechanism, a sense of observing from a separated position. It is not like there is some separate entity called " thought " that divides things. It is rather that, resorting to words, it will sound like there are separable entities. Thought doesn't " do " anything. One is aware. One observes thought. Thought and the observer are not separated. Thus, thinker is not separated from thought, thought is not separated from the present experiential moment, the perception is undivided -- one is aware (one is aware-ing). - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:26 PM > Re: No-communication > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dennis_travis33 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 9:19 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > dennis_travis33 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 8:43 AM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > dennis_travis33 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 7:44 AM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > dennis_travis33 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 4:14 AM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the > > > > > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most > > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > all life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the > > > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own > > > > > > > > relationship > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > has or sees. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such " show a belief in it, and give it power it never has had.... " > > > > > > is > > > > > > due > > > > > > to > > > > > > ego.....forever restless in nature.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not due to ego. The belief IS the " as if " ego itself. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody knows.... > > > > > > > > > > except the ego. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > nobody there who need such " imaginary knowledge " (ego) for > > > > > real...anyway... > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > It seems that sometimes imagination seems to issue from some > > > > > separate > > > > > imaginer. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imaginer " geo " , > > > > > > > > " geo " Is....all this nice imaginations, words and worlds in here, > > > > inclusive > > > > > > > > there are indeed no seperations between " geo " and " geo " ... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > To the reader " geo " is an image. > > > > To the writer it is a means to facilitate commucation. They are not > > > > the > > > > same. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > reader and writer " geo " are imaginary > > > > > > also reader and writer " marc " are imaginary > > > > > > .... > > > > > > they get real, when there is a " reader or writer " " geo or marc " reading > > > or > > > writing.... > > > > > > ... > > > > > > they disappear when there is silence....again > > > > > > means, when real Self appears, again. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > There is no need for fragmentation in order to write or do anything. IT > > > is > > > always doing IT. > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > this your " IT " is just " geo " who is allergic when it comes to > > fragmentations.....or differentiation between real and unreal. > > > > " geo " (or this your imaginary " IT " ), of course, is always the cause of > > fragmentations.....because thats the nature of imaginations & fictions like > > " geo " ... > > > > > > Marc > > Yes. > > And this is not aimed at a " geo " but at any identifiable thought-stream, so > to speak. > > The nature of any thought-stream with attempted self-continuity of themes, > feelings, processes is to split - because that is the basis for any sense of > continuity it has. > > Thought requires apparent division for a sense of continuity. > > -- D -- > > Not all and any thinking process needs fragmentation to be. Very simply: > thought is also IT. > -geo- As one is aware-ing without fragmentation, there is nothing that is not this aware-ing. There isn't any fragmentation that exists anywhere, at any time. The idea of fragmentation doesn't fragment anything. This can't be verbalized - but verbalizations don't interfere. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:28 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:26 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 9:17 PM > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 6:12 PM > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > toombaru2006 > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 5:32 PM > > > > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no > > > > > > > > continuity, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> What explains is the program that takes care of the body but > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > nothing to do with a self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > > > > vastness > > > > > > > out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> The body is progaramed like that much alike any animal. The > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > organism does not need an imagined inner observer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And who is it that has decided that? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > Please rephrase the question. > > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it something other that the sense of self...the inner > > > > > observer.....that > > > > > has concluded that the physical organism doesn't need an inner observer? > > > > > > > > > > Where do those opinions reside? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Ahhhh...toomba...Not opinions, it is obvious. > > > > > There is the seeing of this organism/consciosuness and the awareness > > > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > just an empty pattern and the possiblity of being able to look at it > > > > > means > > > > > I > > > > > am not it. > > > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biiiiiingo! > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > That is the whole " point " is it not? > > > > The seeing of the manifested - as a whole - suddenly as some quantum snap > > > > evaporates any observer into the empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > > no-thingness. > > > > -geo- > > > > > > No, it is being the suffering without identifying with it. > > > > > > Not escaping into some never-never land of not-manifested no-thingness. > > > > > > The suffering itself is the emptiness. > > > > > > -- D -- > > > > > > " it is being the suffering without identifying with it. " > > > In what manner that is different from " empty not-knowable non-manifested > > > no-thingness. " ? > > > Is any of those expressions identical with it? > > > -geo- > > > > Just be it. > > > > You'll never explain it or express it. > > > > - D - > > > > > Trying to be it is about as hard as trying not to be it. > > > LOL > > > toombaru You already always are this. No trying is involved. And trying doesn't interfere. Whatever you are trying to do, has nothing to do with being this. You already always are this. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > - > > > dan330033 > > > Nisargadatta > > > Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:39 AM > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > dan330033 > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > Monday, August 10, 2009 8:25 PM > > > > Re: No-communication > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sense of self is not there for the survival of the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We differ on this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is there for the survival of the continuity of thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The I amness arises concurrently with conceptual thought. > > > > > They are the same phenomenon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The continuity of a ghost-entity, which in truth has no continuity, is > > > > > > merely an ever-changing series of thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > And it is what is speaking now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is like a repeating habit, not an entity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > geo> Yes. The sense of self in fact is harmfull for the body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't explain the fact that humans have the most successful of > > > > > all > > > > > life forms on earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other > > > > > > hand, indeed, it is a survival program and indeed abhors the idea that > > > > > > it > > > > > > one day will die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is programmed to survive and reproduce. > > > > > It is not part of its program to understand its own relationship to > > > > > vastness out of which it emerged. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > It doesn't do anything, have anything, see anything. > > > > > > > > You are talking about a pattern of neural events, not a thing that does or > > > > has or sees. > > > > > > > > You try to debunk something that isn't there. > > > > > > > > You address many, many comments to something that is not. > > > > > > > > In that ongoing attempt to debunk it, you show a belief in it, and give it > > > > power it never has had, as if to exist. > > > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > > > The sense of self? why do you say that? Of course it does. It is a sourece > > > > of fear, anxiety, anger, illusion. illness.... > > > > > > The attempt to establish something that is the source of fear, *is* fear. > > > > > > >Profound fear for inexistent > > > > causes, great anguish for fear of loosing imagined stuff.....all this > > > > affects the body/mind... > > > > > > There aren't any final explanations for the fear you are - there is simply > > > being it. > > > > > > This is not for the squeamish. > > > > > > The fear of death is like a poison the alters the > > > > organic balance of the body/mind delicate balance. What about jealousy, > > > > panic...lots and lots of more reactions that shoot wrong enzims, > > > > inapropriate hormones, harmfull discharges all over the organism..I really > > > > dont get you here... > > > > > > Fear is much more than the biological observations you've learned about. > > > > > > It is the basis for the establishment of the science that produced these > > > observations about the biochemistry of fear. > > > > > > > PS - Not the inexistent self - of course - but the sense of " as if " . > > > > > > Sure - but learning about the " as if " nature of human nature, is itself an > > > " as if. " > > > > > > In other words, there is no refuge available from fear and suffering, and > > > the pain humans inflict on each other, by surmising an " as if " condition > > > involved. Learning that this is a dream, is itself learning in a dream. > > > > > > The attraction for the dream is to attempt to get away into a reality that > > > can be controlled somehow. > > > > > > -- Dan -- > > > > > > All I said is that living with the imagined center harms the organism: the > > > need for fforts from morning till night and night till morning. > > > You are talking of something else. > > > -geo- > > > > Not really. > > > > But you think so. > > > > Do you understand the fear you are? > > > > - D - > > > > > > Now.....that's a double scoop of scary! > > > :-0 > > > > toombaru Being open to the fear one is, understanding directly the extent of it - is the door to understanding. The contraction of awareness away from itself, the misunderstanding, ends here. All splitting and self-deceit is surrendered. Everything known about advaita goes out the window. Everything known about " no self " dissolves ... Just this. End of story. - D - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
