Sudra's swadharma and smriti texts

[sambya 0]

according to the concept of swadharma a brahmin's duty is to stick to the path of righteousness and reflect on brahman along with cultivation and transmission of knowledge . a kshatriya should protect his tribe and practise fighting skills , a vaishya should engage in trade an commerece .

 

but sadly a sudra should obey and serve the other three varnas . why is this injustice ? one might say 'thats their swadharma' . but going by that same swadharma there is also something as manav-dharma(human-dharma) . by this he is entitled to recreation , artha , moksha and all other amenities as anyone else .

 

but our smriti texts specifically bars women and sudras to perform certain religious practices considered so necessary for the other three varnas . for example a women or sudra is not allowed to utter pranava ( om ) !! why is this injustice ?

 

is the concept of swadharma a flawed one right from its begining ?

 

in order to solve this we must understand the very nature or shruti and smritis . shruti literally means that which is heard and reffers to the vedas upanishads and vedanta which was transmitted through hearing for centuries . smritis on the other hand means that which is remembered and includes puranas and similar texts which were composed later on .

 

it is supposed that smritis were written down from memory of the brahmins of whatever they had remembered of the shrutis . this directly places the srutis in a superior position to the smritis .

 

chances of mistake in the shrutis is low as there is an extreme concern in all hinduism to pronounce the words correctly in order to get the full results of the rituals . but smritis might not be as accurate simply because they are written from rememberence .

 

and as swadharma is a smriti concept we might conclude that there are misinterpretations in the texts . later day corruption and misinterpretations might have caused such texts to have been added to the otherwise broad and universal sanatana dharma .

 

what do you think ?

[sant 0]

i dont think varn ashram is wrong because even in bhagwad gita krishna talks about it and im shore he didnt mean what is happening here as history taught us about the injustice done to shudras and the corrupt brahmins

and that is why i think new religions came here in the kaliyugu . women and shudras do not read ved and misintepret them that is why they were not allowed.but that is happening now i think.

om is the most difficult to realise so may be that is why women and shudras were not allowed.

and what was not allowed for brahmins was allowed for shudras such as eating anything.

in puraan a great rishi says that in kaliyuga women and shudras are the best. women can reach higher planet by serving their husband

but yes taking it as a supremacy point as it was taken and misused is wrong. varn ashram is only for duty.

but the work of a soldier is higher than that of a vaishya.

 

and for shudras methods such as tantra is already there for religion.

[sant 0]

how is puraan a smriti please explain as they herad and not remembered

[Amlesh 1]

One serves according to one's nature.

If one possesses the characteristics of a Sudra; it is not that the person will have choice for do's and don't's, he'll be compelled by his own nature to act in that particular way.

[sambya 0]

 

how is puraan a smriti please explain as they herad and not remembered

 

 

puranas are not shruti . they are not heard . they are the most typical of all smritis . consult websites , professors or historians to get it verified .

[sambya 0]

 

If one possesses the characteristics of a Sudra; it is not that the person will have choice for do's and don't's, he'll be compelled by his own nature to act in that particular way.

 

i think you are speaking of varna by qualities not birth . its true that a person born as a shudra(by qualities) cannot help but act like one .

 

but its also fact that varna is also by birth . this has been the standard ways of distinguishing ones varna for atleast 2000 years . im reffering to such 'by birth' cases here in this thread .

 

in any case , the only system of determining varna for the last 2000 years was by birth . even chaintanya mahaprabhu did not give or support gayatri diksha to someone not born in brahmana caste . this was so inspite of the fact that most of his associates were the highest brahmins by qualities ( like haridas thakur ).

 

that is the reason im focussing on 'by birth' method here .....

[sant 0]

oh yes good post

[Kulapavana 0]

 

according to the concept of swadharma a brahmin's duty is to stick to the path of righteousness and reflect on brahman along with cultivation and transmission of knowledge . a kshatriya should protect his tribe and practise fighting skills , a vaishya should engage in trade an commerece .

 

but sadly a sudra should obey and serve the other three varnas . why is this injustice ?

 

Is brahmana's path easy? No. Neither is sudra's path easy - each varna has it's inherent austerity. Do you think that serving others as svadharma is an injustice? Why? Actually it is a very elevated platform.

 

One who thinks serving others is degrading does not understand the process of gradual elevation of human nature. Those who have no concept of serving others as part of their religious duty are actually below the level of a sudra. All varnas have serving others as the major part of their svadharma: brahmanas are servants, so are kshatriyas and vaishyas. It is just that their way of service is more specialized. Members of each varna are elevated by their proper service to others.

 

Many (if not most) people in the world are not even sudras, as they have no concept of service in their mentality. They rebell against working together to serve the society in general as a just and honorable social position, instead cultivating the idea of a passive entitlement. I see it in a lot of impoverished people in relatively rich countries - they demand money from the governement just because they are poor: 'give me money because I'm a failure'. A true sudra is too proud to take money for nothing. They want an honest pay for an honest day of work - and that is respectable. Living off the rest of society by being on welfare is not respectable. Sadly, many devotees live like that - in social sense they are not even sudras.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

the whole concept of Varnasrama is a useless topic of discussion because Varnasrama can only be implemented and administrated by a Rajarsi who represents Vedic authority.

 

there are no Rajarsi kings in the world now and the whole pretense of Varnasrama is just a device abused by a defunct Hindu society for the oppression of the laborer class.

 

Varnasrama without a Rajarsi is a false division of society based upon family traditions that have lost legitimacy and so we see so-called brahmans in India doing business or technology like Vaisyas and Sudras.

 

The world doesn't need the false Varnasrama system that the Hindus in India cling to out of false prestige and false qualifications.

 

The world doesn't need Varnasrama.

The world needs only Krishna conciousness.

[sambya 0]

 

One who thinks serving others is degrading does not understand the process of gradual elevation of human nature. Those who have no concept of serving others as part of their religious duty are actually below the level of a sudra. All varnas have serving others as the major part of their svadharma: brahmanas are servants, so are kshatriyas and vaishyas. It is just that their way of service is more specialized. Members of each varna are elevated by their proper service to others.

 

 

what you say is very true . service to all jivas including animals are the greatest of virtues . it generates humility and broadens the heart . it is the most easy method of self purification from our material contamination . the service might be material like providing material needs as well as preaching spirituality( the highest service) . i agree that there is nothing better than service for one's upliftment .

 

but in context of this thread i feel you got me wrong . here the situation that im speaking of is absolutely different . the service that you are speaking of is voluntary and out of a sense of self improvement . the service that born-sudras had to render for thousands of years to the higher castes was for most part under compulsion and social pressure . they were made to believe that they are only here to serve the others . while mukti of brahmanas and kshatriyas lies in prayer and meditation ( direct communion with god) that of sudra's lies in serving the other castes . and such things were only encouraged by smriti texts ( not all ) .

 

in your concept of service , one who serves is doing so under the belief in underlying divinity of all jivas . he is actually serving with a veiw of serving his own ishta . he visualizes his ishta in all created beings . he realizes his humble position and yearns for reuniting with the supreme .

 

but in my concept of service , a born-sudra is serving because he has been told to do so since childhood. because he has seen his parents and grandparents do the same since childhood . because he is trained to accept things as they are and because he hasnt the sufficient strength or education to rise up and protest .

 

im sure that you would agree that there is a huge difference between the service that you are suggesting and the one that im speaking of ......

[sambya 0]

 

Varnasrama without a Rajarsi is a false division of society based upon family traditions that have lost legitimacy and so we see so-called brahmans in India doing business or technology like Vaisyas and Sudras.

 

The world doesn't need the false Varnasrama system that the Hindus in India cling to out of false prestige and false qualifications.

 

The world doesn't need Varnasrama.

The world needs only Krishna conciousness.

 

while its true that indian brahmins have lost their ancient position of glory and have done away with cultivation of spiritual values and disciplines , it cannot be denied that absolute credit goes to them and them alone for preservance of most of our treasured scriptures . it is that orthodoxy and rigidity of them , that actually helped preserve the ancient texts and manuscripts from the hands of tyrannical foriegn rulers who dominated over the subcontinent over a millenium . that is how we still have those invaluable wisdom still with us .

 

 

and there are numerous brahmin families still living in the country who posesses brahminical qualities . it is through these families that religious organizations come to know of the manners and customs of brahmins whicch they implement in their own institutionalized process of brahmin initiation .

 

 

 

The world doesn't need Varnasrama.

The world needs only Krishna conciousness.

[sant 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>is the concept of swadharma a flawed one right from its begining ?

 

in order to solve this we must understand the very nature or shruti and smritis . shruti literally means that which is heard and reffers to the vedas upanishads and vedanta which was transmitted through hearing for centuries

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>chances of mistake in the shrutis is low as there is an extreme concern in all hinduism to pronounce the words correctly in order to get the full results of the rituals . but smritis might not be as accurate simply because they are written from rememberence .

 

and as swadharma is a smriti concept we might conclude that there are misinterpretations in the texts . later day corruption and misinterpretations might have caused such texts to have been added to the otherwise broad and universal sanatana dharma .

 

 

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bhagwat gita is also considered a shruti and krishna mentions varnashram dharam

now is that also flawed?

or do you just want to critisize the vedas

why dont u start finding faults witht antric methods that you follow

is that smriti or shruti

[sambya 0]

 

or do you just want to critisize the vedas

 

where did i criticise the shrutis ?

 

 

why dont u start finding faults with tantra that you follow

is that smriti or shruti

 

 

how do you know i follow tantra ? is it merely because i have a pic of kali as my avatar ?

 

hi hi hi !!!!!!

[sant 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>is the concept of swadharma a flawed one right from its begining ?

 

 

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here you did

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>chances of mistake in the shrutis is low as there is an extreme concern in all hinduism to pronounce the words correctly in order to get the full results of the rituals . but smritis might not be as accurate simply because they are written from rememberence .

 

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you mean to say that puraans are not vedas

[sambya 0]

puranaas are not vedas !! didnt you know that ? whats there to argue about it ?

 

i feel you have been out in sun for long !! indian summer temperatures can be really high --carefull !!!!

[sant 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>how do you know i follow tantra ? is it merely because i have a pic of kali as my avatar ?

 

 

 

 

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most shakts are tantric i guess

 

you live in calcutta all t he more the chances

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ha ha !! even your vaishnav doctrines would agree that everything except god is temporary and relative . what are you speaking of ?

91

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>your hah

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no ! im neither he nor she nor nothing . im not body neither the soul , im not buddhi , nor ego nor existence .

CHIDANANDARUPAM SHIVOHAM SHIVOHAM !!!

 

ha ha ha !!!!95

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>weird answers pr sense of humor

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>BTW , shakta texts never talk of vishnu as not being the supreme . tantra always respects the supremacy of vishnu . this is so because the supremacy of any male god can never undermine the importance of devi . sh is the inner potential of all male gods . she is laxmi and durga also . and she is the only existing female prin

96

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>tantra

you talk yourself

[sambya 0]

 

most shakts are tantric i guess

 

too poor a guess !! most are puranic

 

 

 

i dont respond to references drawn in from some completely out of the topic threads !!! i can respond to them in their respective places , not here .

[sant 0]

If you can call upanishad vedas then the puranas can also be vedas

[sambya 0]

it cant !! simple .......see it ? upanishads are vedanta or the anta(end) of vedas . they are shrutis and date from early vedic age .

 

puranas have nothing to do with vedas except accepting their authority and date from as late as 17th century . they are smritis .

 

very simple really ..........no matter how much you cry and shout shrutis will remain as shrutis and smritis as smritis .

 

enjoy !!!

[sant 0]

Nonsense puraans were written 5000 yrs ago along with vedas

[sant 0]

I agree but on shruti being higher as i have also read about that but you cannot ignore the importance of puranas

[sambya 0]

 

Nonsense puraans were written 5000 yrs ago along with vedas

 

if you feel satisfied with it , so be it !!

 

but it doesnt make a difference , you see !!

[sambya 0]

 

but you cannot ignore the importance of puranas

 

im not !!

[sant 0]

Nonsense the orthodox brahmins were right when they did not let shoodra women translate ved as we can see the result with u. The smriti mention of low nature of women

[sambya 0]

ha ha ha ! im a male brahmin vaishnav bengali and currently a student .