Gurukripa speaks out after 30 years silence..

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

 

Prabhupada most certainly chose himself the people authorized to initiate in his absence. .

So, you are saying that Prabhupada appointed a gang of neophytes to imitate an acharya.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

[stonehearted 0]

Yeah, well, Sonic, we haven't all been able to stay young and trim as you. I'll tell you one thing, though (and I told this to him when I saw him in Honolulu ten years ago), the dude can still cook a kirtan. And maybe even better than before, in some ways.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

So, you are saying that Prabhupada appointed a gang of neophytes to imitate an acharya.

 

 

No, IMO Prabhupada appointed a gang of neophytes to initiate new disciples in order to carry on with his preaching mission, most likely hoping that eventually some of them will actually become qualified for the position... just like with those he gave sannyasa.

 

Prabhupada used the word acharya to denote a leader of a matha. He himself started accepting disciples even before taking sannyasa, that had nothing to do with the post of an acharya.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

 

He still likes the expensive watches

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I had problems with his overly aggressive fundraising, but he never came on like he was anything other that how he presented himself. He was a thug, happy to be a thug, and I liked his thuggery. At least he wasnt a hypocrite and falsely "spiritual" like the others who were REALLY the thugs.

 

Yes... and that is why he took sannyasa from Prabhupada...

 

He was one of them fighting sannyasis, carrying a big danda as a weapon...

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

Yeah, well, Sonic, we haven't all been able to stay young and trim as you. I'll tell you one thing, though (and I told this to him when I saw him in Honolulu ten years ago), the dude can still cook a kirtan. And maybe even better than before, in some ways.

 

Yeah, I am real specimen that is for sure.

[andy108 0]

 

 

Let's not kidd ourselves... They were passed off as diksa gurus just like the sannyasis were passed off as the real McCoy swamis. It was a work in progress, cooks and crooks dressed in pretty uniforms and shipped out to the battlefield after a crash course training in bhakti yoga...

 

There you go again. Saying Srila Prabhupada passed them off as diksa gurus, when the only definitions he ever gave for Diksa guru makes that an impossibility. You have no evidence that he ever authorized anyone to be Diksa Guru or Appointed anyone Diksa Guru. Devotees have practically written doctoral Theses on the subject and the evidence is hard, clear, and unambiguous.

 

Of course we do have evidence that he called the people initiating on his behalf Ritviks, and representatives of the Acaraya, which is well in accordance with the descriptions of ritviks in Bhagavatam and Sanskrit dictionary. And all anyone was qualified to do anyway.

 

Your word, or the evidence? HMMMMM...

 

 

And he did exactly the same with the function of initiating gurus. The same risks, the same characters...

 

Prabhupada never cared much about the formality of initiation - before or after his passing. He knew the knowledge and siksa in our movement were coming primarily from him and that was the important part.

 

 

So he never cared much about the formality. What planet were you living on? He cared a great deal about it. Instituted it carefully, gave reams of instructions about it, left institution wide instructions about how they were to be managed in the future. Please, these statements make you look silly.

 

Granted, he deemphasised it IN RELATION to receiving the transcendental knowledge through Siksa, and called the sincere response to his message "real initiation". But both angles of vision are easily rectified simultaneously without having to concoct reasons to change his system.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

There you go again. Saying Srila Prabhupada passed them off as diksa gurus, when the only definitions he ever gave for Diksa guru makes that an impossibility. You have no evidence that he ever authorized anyone to be Diksa Guru or Appointed anyone Diksa Guru. Devotees have practically written doctoral Theses on the subject and the evidence is hard, clear, and unambiguous.

 

Of course we do have evidence that he called the people initiating on his behalf Ritviks, and representatives of the Acaraya, which is well in accordance with the descriptions of ritviks in Bhagavatam and Sanskrit dictionary. And all anyone was qualified to do anyway.

 

Your word, or the evidence? HMMMMM...

 

 

 

So he never cared much about the formality. What planet were you living on? He cared a great deal about it. Instituted it carefully, gave reams of instructions about it, left institution wide instructions about how they were to be managed in the future. Please, these statements make you look silly.

 

Granted, he deemphasised it IN RELATION to receiving the transcendental knowledge through Siksa, and called the sincere response to his message "real initiation". But both angles of vision are easily rectified simultaneously without having to concoct reasons to change his system.

 

I am starting to like you more already.

[mahak 0]

See, Babhru Prabhu knows where its at. The bottom line, and why I am unwilling to criticize someone who did not like me very much, is that the dude could cook.

 

Where did one find gurukrpa at a rathayatra festival in the day? In front of Subhadras cart, with the kirtana masters, by those who could move mountains with harinam samkirtana. With sudama, bhramananda, jayananda, visnujnana, bahudaka, the who's who of powerful street kirtana.

 

He gave me the creeps, but I would always seek him out because that is where the action was. And Srila Prabhupada was always in Srimati Subhadra's cart, always extremely pleased at the antics of sudama, GK, visnujnana, bahudaka. Im glad hes still alive, because di others have marched off to history, on the path that we have yet to take.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

 

Hey Brah, hope all is well, still in Central America???

[stonehearted 0]

 

He gave me the creeps, but I would always seek him out because that is where the action was. And Srila Prabhupada was always in Srimati Subhadra's cart, always extremely pleased at the antics of sudama, GK, visnujnana, bahudaka. Im glad hes still alive, because di others have marched off to history, on the path that we have yet to take.

 

Yeah, he was someone whose company I'd eschew, except when there was kirtan. When he'd visit Honolulu, I could usually be counted on for a donation (at the end of the visit, to help pay for his ticket off the island). We had a couple of long, heartfelt talks ten years ago, though, and decided we could get along pretty well.

 

 

Hey Brah, hope all is well, still in Central America???

Nah, back in Florida with the wife, for now--just down the road from Senor Yogi. But I hope to head back down there as soon as I can.

[andy108 0]

 

High level madhyama adhikaris can transfer Divya Jnana. But at that time Srila Prabhupada's most trusted servitors were only in the upper stages of kannistha (some were just plain kanisthas) or the very beginning of madhyama.

 

Well from everything I have read, even reaching the very beginning of Madhyama implies a NO FALL STATURE. But it is never explictly stated in a full sentence by Srila Prabhupada that a madhyama never falls.

 

If I were to analyze the range of neophyte, there would be the worst rascal who disobeys the spiritual master and fights to harm his movement with no remorse on one end, and a pure advanced neophyte like Tapana Misra or Candraśekhara Prabhus.

 

 

Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 7:: Adi 7.52 : PURPORT

 

"Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very compassionate for His pure devotees Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara."

 

CC Adi 7.51 : from purport

"Although a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing śāstric evidences. Therefore Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara are understood to be kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyāsīs in Benares. "

 

I generally agree that a pure devotee of any status, when authorized by his Guru, can give real initiatory Divya Jnana by sharing Mantra with an aspirant, and as we know, they cannot personally assist that aspirant to an adhikari higher than their own through their insufficient siksa guidance.

 

If only Srila Prabhupada had ever showed any sign of doing so but he didn't ever authorize a Diksa guru. And how could he when he himself admonished everyone immortaly in his purports to only select an uttama as spiritual master.

 

 

Nectar of Instruction 5. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.

 

I think Gour Govinda was a Madhyama adhikari, and was probably authorized by SP to initiate his own disciples, Supersoul saw that GGM would wind up breaking with Iskcon and having his own Matha anyway, even though he personally did all he could to stay in Iskcon and work with the Goombah Boys Club.

[Beggar 0]

I beleive that one of the factors that also fueled the push for the Zonal Acarya program of the big 11 was the fear that Kirtanananda was going make propaganda that he was the real successor. Tamal was deathly afraid of K's potential success. Tamal had a bad reputation amongst many householders in North America by 1977 due to what went on with the Radha Damodara bus program. But at the same time many householders and "fringies" were actually wondering if K would become Srila Prabhupada's successor. In Europe Bhagavan was big but he wasn't even a sanyassi. Hamsadutta had a small fanatic following in W. Germany and some even wanted to take initiation from him during '76-'77 but H had a bad reputation, worldwide, because of the problems that he had created with the West German government. Some thought Satsvarupa M. could also be a successor guru but he had a reputation of being pushed around by other GBCs. Also Hrdayananda M. was big in S. America but in N. America most viewed him as learned but anything but humble. There were also rumors that he was a cruel manager in Latin America. Jayapataka was also a "big gun" but he was practically an unknown outside Bengal. The remainder of the 11 were not even a footnote. By early '77 there were rumors flying around that Gurukrpa was addicted to heroin. In those days I don't remember anyone conceiving of anything like a rtvik program. No one even thought that there would be a moratorium on initiations after Srila Prabhupada departed although in retrospect that seems reasonable. But in those days amongst Prabhupada's disciples who at the time were in there 20's and early 30's (95%) reason was a rare commodity and this was especially true of those whose ambition had gone out of control.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

I remember back in the day when Gurukripa was like a rock star in the eyes of new devotees like myself.

 

I was actually afraid of Gurukripa.

He looked like a thug to me.

 

Yet, he had this mystique in ISKCON amongst new devotees like some famous Hollywood star or rock star.

 

But, he did lead a great kirtan and walked around with his head high and very much pleased with himself.

 

Gurukripa was just someone to be revered and feared as far as I was concerned.

 

I certainly never wanted to meet him or talk to him personally.

 

But, "the Krip" was cool.

He was one of the most colorful characters in the history of ISKCON.

 

I would love to set down and just talk for days to Gurukripa now.

I think he is just as cool as can be.

[andy108 0]

 

In those days I don't remember anyone conceiving of anything like a rtvik program. No one even thought that there would be a moratorium on initiations after Srila Prabhupada departed although in retrospect that seems reasonable.

 

Srila Prabhupada simply described the system he had been using for years as a ritvik system, which is what it was. I have closely anaylyzed the various permutations of the word Ritvj from multiple sanskrit dictionarys. The ritvj is mentioned not only as a priest or offciator, but that they due their duty "on the behalf of the Acarya".

 

To state that using the ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada's departure would equate to a moratorium on initiations is a fallacy.

 

If you meant that many of the proxy initiators and their already fanatic groupies would consider ritvik to be depriving those holy rollers of their status of Initiating Gurus, which was a forgone conclusion in their minds whether they spoke of it or not, that would make more sense. Thus moratorium on initiations would fit, because Prabhupada was clarifying to their feeble minds that they were never initiating anything except their own path to hell if they thought they were the initiator.

[Beggar 0]

In mid-'73 Gurukripa and Yasodanandana Swamis showed up in LA. They led super Bengali style kirtans and ended them with a series of 'jaya Prabhupada', 'Nitai Gaura Hari bol', and 'jaya gurudeva's'. The LA devotees had never heard, 'Nitai Gaura Hari bol' and were perplexed since Srila Prabhupada never chanted it during kirtan. To this very Nara Narayana won't chant it and thinks that it is a Gaudiya Math conspiracy.

One day I was working at Spiritual Sky Incense Co. and Karandhar brought the boys over to see the operation and meet with Jayatirtha. Later Jayatirtha told me to take them shoping in LA and then back to the temple. The boys were chanting japa in the back seat with a look on their faces so grave which kind of said, "talk to me and I'll rip your head off and drink your blood". But since I suffer from a chronic case of diareah of the mouth I couldn't control my urge to speak. Me: How long are you Maharaja's staying in LA. Gurukrpa: You talk'in to me? wait a minute, you talkin to me? Me: Nice kirtana this morning, I've never heard that style, is it Bengali? Gurukrpa: Yeah, wait a minute who are you to have an opinion about a sanyassi's kirtan?.... that it was good or bad? Me: Maharaja? Gurukrpa: Just shut up and keep driving. Yasodanandana: Yeah. It was like they were "made men" and I wasn't, it was the beginning of '70s Mafia style Iskcon.

In the mid-eighties I knew the krpa, in CA. He lived in Santa Cruz then Sacramento. He was married and a big 49ers fan. In fact he started the 49ers sampradaya amongst the householders up here, of course that was during their real glory years. But he always chanted and read and was interested in Krsna Consciousness. And he certainly wasn't silent about the Magnificent 11; he detested them. I hadn't seen him in twenty years, then I ran into him in India about two years ago. Now he seems to be developing some kind of Guru-complex, like maybe he's running out of time to become a guru. Guru or bust.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

In Prabhupada's will, he appointed Gurukripa as the first name he mentioned as executor of his will.

So. Prabhupada obviously had some special regard for Gurukripa Maharaja.

 

 

9. I hereby appoint Guru Krpa Swami, Hrdayananda Gosvami, Tamal Krishna Gosvami, Rameshwar Swami, Gopal Krishna das Adhikari, Jayatirtha das Adhikari and Giriraj das Brahmachary to act as executors of this will. I have made this will this 4th day of June, 1977, in possession of full sense and sound mind, without any persuasion, force or compulsion from anybody.

 

[Beggar 0]

 

In Prabhupada's will, he appointed Gurukripa as the first name he mentioned as executor of his will.

So. Prabhupada obviously had some special regard for Gurukripa Maharaja.

 

 

Sure he did. Sometimes we have to see that the real guru knows everything. Sometimes we need to be logical. Gurukrpa had drug problems at that time and he has admitted it.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

Sure he did. Sometimes we have to see that the real guru knows everything. Sometimes we need to be logical. Gurukrpa had drug problems at that time and he has admitted it.

 

Isn't there some marble inlaid plaque on the Vrindavan Gurukula (orderd by Srila Prabhupada) thanking the Krip for 2.5 million $$$ for the building of the facility?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

And he certainly wasn't silent about the Magnificent 11; he detested them. I hadn't seen him in twenty years, then I ran into him in India about two years ago. Now he seems to be developing some kind of Guru-complex, like maybe he's running out of time to become a guru. Guru or bust.

 

He probably regretted not getting into their fabulous guru-con act and not being part of their mob...

[Sonic Yogi 0]

One thing that the Krip and me have in common is that we both have blue eyes.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

He probably regretted not getting into their fabulous guru-con act and not being part of their mob...

 

Ok, so now lets blame Gurukripa for things he didn't do.

 

It will take you ten thousand lifetimes to do the service Gurukripa did in just one.

[andy108 0]

Hey Beggar, did you miss this post, or is silence equal to agreement?

 

 

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by beggar

In those days I don't remember anyone conceiving of anything like a rtvik program. No one even thought that there would be a moratorium on initiations after Srila Prabhupada departed although in retrospect that seems reasonable.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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Srila Prabhupada simply described the system he had been using for years as a ritvik system, which is what it was. I have closely anaylyzed the various permutations of the word Ritvj from multiple sanskrit dictionarys. The ritvj is mentioned not only as a priest or offciator, but that they due their duty "on the behalf of the Acarya".

 

To state that using the ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada's departure would equate to a moratorium on initiations is a fallacy.

 

If you meant that many of the proxy initiators and their already fanatic groupies would consider ritvik to be depriving those holy rollers of their status of Initiating Gurus, which was a forgone conclusion in their minds whether they spoke of it or not, that would make more sense. Thus moratorium on initiations would fit, because Prabhupada was clarifying to their feeble minds that they were never initiating anything except their own path to hell if they thought they were the initiator.

[raghu 2]

 

I had problems with his overly aggressive fundraising, but he never came on like he was anything other that how he presented himself. He was a thug, happy to be a thug, and I liked his thuggery. At least he wasnt a hypocrite and falsely "spiritual" like the others who were REALLY the thugs.

 

You cannot change your nature, nor are you supposed to.

 

 

Really? Then why is iskcon initiating so many unqualified individuals into the sacred thread, etc? If you can't change their nature, then what is the point of saying that they are becoming qualified brahmanas?

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

Really? Then why is iskcon initiating so many unqualified individuals into the sacred thread, etc? If you can't change their nature, then what is the point of saying that they are becoming qualified brahmanas?

 

Really?

ISKCON is initiating brahmanas?

How can a corporation initiate anyone?

 

Aren't "gurus" in ISKCON doing the initiation?