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Crow and Tal Fruit Logic

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Crow and Tal fruit

 

devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”

 

Note: here is that attachment letter.

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

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(Srila Prabhupada)... so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Therefore another topic could be, despite this very clear instruction why are some of us obsessed with this topic? I must confess, 'Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.'

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Crow and Tal fruit

 

devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”

 

Note: here is that attachment letter.

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

 

Simply beautiful.

Reading was a pleasure.

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Yes it is wonderful. I should have posted this first instead of talking so much. Prabhupada is very clear. Svarupa gave referrences to this letter and that is what spurred me just to post it.

 

 

So still some may have disagreements but that's Ok,"nothing to get hung about."

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Looks like yet another document which was kept hidden till 2007? Wonder what else will "suddenly appear"?

Thanks for posting it!

 

Not that I have any exception with OP's post, it is just where is the reference in the folio? I mean to say what is the refence from. A letter? What letter? I would like to read it in it's entirety and context.

 

Could someone please give person, date, place?

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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Not that I have any exception with OP's post, it is just where is the reference in the folio? I mean to say what is the refence from. A letter? What letter? I would like to read it in it's entirety and context.

 

Could someone please give person, date, place?

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

 

Duh!!! I skipped over Thiest's intro and went right to the body of the post.

 

Sorry, nevermind! LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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Not that I have any exception with OP's post, it is just where is the reference in the folio? I mean to say what is the refence from. A letter? What letter? I would like to read it in it's entirety and context.

 

Could someone please give person, date, place?

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

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The letter was inspired by an discussion on this bus about our original possiton in Vaikuntha, in early 1972. The full story is here and how this letter was evebtually sent by Prabhupada <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->The Hare Krishna Movement, The Positive Alternative

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

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Looks like yet another document which was kept hidden till 2007? Wonder what else will "suddenly appear"?

Thanks for posting it!

 

 

No not hidden, I've posted it several times as has gHari. Svarupa has referred to it numerous times. It's been known all along but it has been ignored by people who want to countinue to bicker.

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Lotusflower - yeah we fell from Goloka. Now we must go back. I cannot think of a more depressing thought. Anybody who preaches this is an idiot.

 

Prabhupada is NO idiot!!

 

 

 

Prabhupada - "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna.

 

Prabhupada - "Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that.

 

Prabhupada - "This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains.

 

Prabhupada - "Now he is in his original position.

 

Prabhupada - "Our separation from Krsna is like that.

 

Prabhupada - "We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.

 

Prabhupada - "First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification.

 

Prabhupada - "Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there.

 

Prabhupada - "There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going.

 

Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide.

 

Prabhupada - "As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport"

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Prabhupada - "There is a dormantattitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoyingindependently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the watercovers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going.

 

Important to note that we are tatashta-shakti. Not just as some say"we came from the region of tatashta-shakti".

 

Our very nature is that we are eternally marginal and can choose to serve Krishna or seek to be independent enjoyers.

 

It is not that maya sneaks into Vaikuntha and tricks some soul into falling, the tendency to forget Krishna is part of our nature. We always have that option.

 

Free will is eternal and in fact without our independence to forget or remember Krishna we would not have any individuality, no independent personality. Is this not a form of Mayavad?

 

I think so and is the reasoning behind a person claiming Krishna-lila is eternal while still believing there is no Supreme Person other than Himself.

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Remember to argue this topic without realization is an aparadha or offense.

The real answer is not intellectual but vijnana or realization. When we are developing real bhakti, love of God, we will see everything clearly. Right now we are just parroting the words, in our dream-like existence. Some of the posters may be more correct than others. But bhakti is not awarded by correctness. Krsna is not controlled by the devotees who are the most correct. It is not karuna or merciful to smash other devotees opinions even if they cannot grasp the proper conception. Many innocent seekers have come to this forum only to see the enmity amongst so-called followers of Krsna Consciousness. What will be the merit in fostering such a mentality in public?

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What will be the merit in fostering such a mentality in public?

 

 

Or in private.

 

And not just this sub-topic but there is no need to try and force ones opinions on anyone or speaking to persons who do not want to hear.

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Free will is eternal and in fact without our independence to forget or remember Krishna we would not have any individuality, no independent personality.

 

Is this not a form of Mayavad?

 

I think so and is the reasoning behind a person claiming Krishna-lila is eternal while still believing there is no Supreme Person other than Himself.

 

Yes, if we, the jiva tattva had no independence to forget or remember Krishna in Goloka based on choice and free will, we would not have any individuality, no independent personality.

 

And, as you excellently explained theist prabhu, those who think the jiva tattva has no independence to forget or remember Krishna in Goloka, based on choice and free will, are simply polluted by Mayavadi philosophy.

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...those who think the jiva tattva has no independence to forget or remember Krishna in Goloka, based on choice and free will are simply polluted by Mayavadi philosphy.

 

Did you ever think that maybe this tatastha origin angle of vision is elaborated on so much (from Caitanya Caritamrta, tatastha sakti bhedaa bheda prakasa) by Srila Jiva Goswami because he is so mercifully preaching to the impersonalist class? And remember Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's preaching philosophy is based on acintya bhedaa bheda tattva or simultaneous oneness and difference of divinity. Oneness is there, but so is difference. We are seeing Mayavadis and Sahajiyas everywhere but it is better to see and admit the Mayavadi and Sahajiya lurking in our own heart as long as our minds are subject to the modes of material nature. When we point fingers, it only comes back on us. And that is why there has been so much polarization over this topic. The path to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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Or in private.

 

What's wrong with fostering it in a private moment? My dog Foster in a private moment:

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Remember to argue this topic without realization is an aparadha or offense.

The real answer is not intellectual but vijnana or realization. When we are developing real bhakti, love of God, we will see everything clearly. Right now we are just parroting the words, in our dream-like existence?

 

Don't be so judgemental, just because you cannot comprehend, it does not mean others cannot as well

 

Also, if one reads this, that is their choice, realization IS a personal understanding of knowledge to share with who ever is interested.

 

Even Srila Vyasa had ALL the knowledge of how the material creation works, but still had one thing missing (pure loving selfless humble devotion to Krsna) and that why he recited the Srimad Bhagavatam. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

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Don't fool yourself Beggar Prabhu, there are many advanced devotees on this website, and many fallen rascals as well (like me, and everyone knows it for real). Krsna’s mercy is very personal though and beyond our judgemental ideas of what we think of others and what we think they know and have realized and deserve. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Have you ever thought that it is possible to even get Closer to God due to the fall downs and mistakes we may have made? The present version of ISKCON cannot understand this causeless wonderful mercy of Lord Caitanya and Prabhupada yet, who can show us for real, WE ARE NOT THIS MATERIAL BODY.

 

Our realizations begin there.

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We should definitely accept Srila Prabhupada as a very great,realised bhakta.

But at the same time the Lord's challenge comes,"My devotee never falls down Arjuna".

 

It is also important to note that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja sticks to the beginningless conditioning of the jeevatma.

Authoritative opinion is this :

That Maya Covers jeevatma due to his turning his back on Sri KRsna.

Krsna Bahirmukha...

But it is also mostly accepted that there was never a specific point in time when this happened.

This position is eternal.

That is why the terms are

"Nitya baddha"

"Nitya siddha".

 

As far as the eternal spiritual bodies...

Sri Vedvyasa maintains that During conditioned state,in the body,after leaving the body and after liberation,the jeevatma MAINTAINS its atomic size.

After Bhagavatprapti,the Lord PROVIDES with a divya DEHA(body) that the Jeevatma inhabits.This is a mystery for the body is completely spiritual.

 

This is the point of difference between Sri Bhagavan's body and the siddha deha/body.

Sri Bhagavan is His body Himself.

We are NOT.

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If we are NOT a perpetual bodily form then what are we? To think we come from an inactive state or impersonal position of clear consciousness is impersonalism.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

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Our nitya siddha or svarupa body IS who are eternally even if we forget that ‘eternal bodily self’ and dream we are nitya baddha if we choose’<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It is the nitya baddha dream state, that is the impersonal aspect of the jiva tattva's marginal identity, that can come from a plain sheet of inactive individual consciousness on the atomic ember echelon (that all are collectively the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of Krsna’s creation), ONLY AFTER FIRST experiencing the falling down to material dream bodies or vessels within the material world which is the Maha tattva dream of Maha Vishnu.

 

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation, it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

 

<o:p></o:p>

This is the correct understanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s teachings.<o:p></o:p>

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The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation, it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

 

There are two brahma lokas: brahma loka or the brahmayoti and Brahma loka the planet of Lord Brahma. Loka can mean planet but it can also mean a place, like a locality. Loka - lokal - local. But a place may also be a position within consciousness, so the brahmajyoti or brahma loka may be a state of consciousness. But if Vrndavana is in the heart of a pure devotee then from that angle of vision it is also a state of consciousness.

 

Repeating the words that Krsna is non-different from His Name is not the same as chanting His Name and having Him "dance on one's tongue". Does He literally dance on the material tongue and step in saliva? Somehow I don't think so. The impersonalists control the tongue by practicing maunam or silence. The devotees or bhaktas control the tongue by only discussing topics of Krsna, Krsna katha.

 

When Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur stated in the Bhagavat speech that, "no thought is a bad thought", what did he mean? Just like in common folk wisdom it is said, "there is a kernal of truth in everything". So for one side of staunch idealogues there is no truth in the idea that the jivas fall from the marginal position. And they will object, "no, no the jiva is marginal." Can you accomodate that both may be true? Is it worth fighting a war over? Of course when the enemy is really a windmill in our Quiote-esque world, what does it matter anyway? Is there any truth in, "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport"? One may ask which lila? For from one angle every aspect of the creation is really the Lord's? So does that make Srila B.V. Prabhupada's statement moot? Should we disregard it entirely? Another set of rigid ideologues will in fact take that position in the debate. Thus each side will react to the other sides reactions and the polarization and enmity will simply continue and in fact, increase. So this will be our legacy, that in this internet era, we were able to help increase polarization and enmity amongst various groups of kanistha adhikari (beginners or those stuck in a beginner position, like myself). And then when innocent seekers who surf the internet, find these posts they will become disgusted with what they see? So much rigid theological posturing, so much pro-Iskcon and anti-Iskcon or other fanatical approaches.

 

Will it bring joy to their hearts to find themselves in some kind of virtual Tower of Babel? Will it lead to abhayam or fearlessness or fear and duality? "At once Kamsa and Sisupala and others, at once they gave there minds to Krsna very easily, that Krsna will come and kill me. So by this method liberation will come very quickly. But to serve Krsna like Narada Muni or the inhabitants of Vrndavana, especially the Gopis is not very easy. So remembering Krsna in dvesha and bhayam, duality and fear, that is not bhakti" [srila Narayana Maharaja]

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