Definition Of Diksha

[suchandra]

 

Did I see this correctly? You want people to chant (praying for) but not concerned about the name.

and then state literally that when the chanting is realized does nothing, eventually the people will give it up?

 

Because this is one of the best ideas found on this site! That in reality chanting a name is basically self imposed 'Rama'.... and then you shared how 'any' name of God... is Otay.

Guess them 'sound' waves are not so tightly focused or special.

 

again am I reading these words correctly?

 

So the idea of chanting will eventually be over with as all it is, is a phase; like skate boards and short skirts?

 

I agree. as time progresses, the changes to come will offer more knowledge to usher in the world Peace.

 

so when more 'qualified' people are around to recieve the knowledge, we can recognize the period is about to change.

 

 

What a great post, (that is if I read it correctly).

Thanks Bishadi (are you a cat?) for writing all this and that you can agree. Yes, unfortunately this world is made like that that people easily forget to chant the holy name. Therefore the material world is called the abode of Mayadevi, where the knowledge of the living entity is covered by ignorance and illusion.

Diksha or no diksha, Krsna says, satatam, be always engaged in devotional activity.

Yes, the yuga-avatar, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying there're many names, "O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names, like Krsna and Govinda."

 

satataḿ kīrtayanto māḿ

yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ

namasyantaś ca māḿ bhaktyā

nitya-yuktā upāsate

 

SYNONYMS

 

satatam — always; kīrtayantaḥ — chanting; mām — about Me; yatantaḥ — fully endeavoring; ca — also; dṛḍha-vratāḥ — with determination; namasyantaḥ — offering obeisances; ca — and; mām — Me; bhaktyā — in devotion; nitya-yuktāḥ — perpetually engaged; upāsate — worship.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion.

 

PURPORT

 

The mahātmā cannot be manufactured by rubber-stamping an ordinary man. His symptoms are described here: a mahātmā is always engaged in chanting the glories of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. He has no other business. He is always engaged in the glorification of the Lord. In other words, he is not an impersonalist. When the question of glorification is there, one has to glorify the Supreme Lord, praising His holy name, His eternal form, His transcendental qualities and His uncommon pastimes. One has to glorify all these things; therefore a mahātmā is attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

One who is attached to the impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord, the brahmajyoti, is not described as mahātmā in the Bhagavad-gītā. He is described in a different way in the next verse. The mahātmā is always engaged in different activities of devotional service, as described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, hearing and chanting about Viṣṇu, not a demigod or human being. That is devotion: śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ and smaraṇam, remembering Him. Such a mahātmā has firm determination to achieve at the ultimate end the association of the Supreme Lord in any one of the five transcendental rasas. To achieve that success, he engages all activities — mental, bodily and vocal, everything — in the service of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. That is called full Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

In devotional service there are certain activities which are called determined, such as fasting on certain days, like the eleventh day of the moon, Ekādaśī, and on the appearance day of the Lord. All these rules and regulations are offered by the great ācāryas for those who are actually interested in getting admission into the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the transcendental world. The mahātmās, great souls, strictly observe all these rules and regulations, and therefore they are sure to achieve the desired result.

 

As described in the second verse of this chapter, not only is this devotional service easy, but it can be performed in a happy mood. One does not need to undergo any severe penance and austerity. He can live this life in devotional service, guided by an expert spiritual master, and in any position, either as a householder or a sannyāsī or a brahmacārī; in any position and anywhere in the world, he can perform this devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and thus become actually mahātmā, a great soul.

[Justice1110]

What sacred elements characterize hindu religion?

[AncientMariner]

 

I don't accept the puport to Jiva Gosvami's definition of diksa as given by NM. In fact to me he has turned it inside out.

 

 

To me this statement covers what diksha is.

Does this not describe the chanting of the Holy Names? I f chanting the Holy Names does not vanquish all sinful reactions then what does it do? hearing SB from the proper source is also part of the diksa process because itimparts transcendental knowledge.

 

According to NM it only is refering to the acceptance of gayatri mantra.

 

I reject his conclusion. Take your pick and take your chances.

 

 

 

Yeah I just read the NM piece as well and although I gotta admit it is intelligently written I have to agree with your conclusion in rejecting his conclusion based on the reasons you stated in regards to the holy names vanquishing sinful reactions and hearing SB from proper source being part of the diksa process. The devil is in the details as they say.

[theist]

 

My response is very approproiate for this numbskull cbrahma who is making a total fool of himself along with his nasty attitude to Vaishnavas.

 

BTW, what is YOUR devotional background, 'forums'?

 

please answer VERY specifically

 

 

Very specifically such things are between myself and God. Mind your own business 3 dot.

[Beggar]

 

I read the BR SM post and I found it to be consistent with my understanding of Prabhupada's writings so I find it puzzling how beggar has turned what BR SM said in that post into the living guru issue etc. Just don't get it...

 

Because during his manifest lila during the years from around 1943 to 1988 Srila Sridhar Maharaj was a "living guru". IOW he was a person who appeared to have form in this world although we accept that his body was totally spiritualized. Through his sound vibration he always emphasized substance over form (formality). Yet, he gave formal hare nama and diksa mantra initiation to his followers, the same way that his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did. The same way that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did. You could always take the concept of subtance over form to the extreme as some do. You could say that since Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said there are no hard and fast rules for the chanting of the holy names of Krsna, it is completely unnecessary to chant on tulasi mala, that one should just chant in his mind. But we have been instructed to chant on tulasi mala at least 16 rounds of hare nama daily. We have also been told to receive these beads after they have been chanted on by our guru. Then there are so many details of devotional service; the idea of substance over form is basically not to sweat the details. The details are there, but try to look for the inner devotional meaning of the details. The anti-diksa proponents not only minimize the details of sadhana bhakti but the main pillar which is guru nistha or firm faith in guru. They think that only Prabhupada's books are necessary but within those books he has given the example of how one cannot become a medical doctor just by reading books, but rather one must study directly under a bona fide medical doctor (medical college). Srila Sridhar Maharaj had formal diksa from his guru and most of the persons that he was speaking to (Sri Guru and His Grace comes from recorded talks) also had formal diksa. And most of those who did not, later took it directly from him. His teachings must be viewed in this context otherwise one will get a completely wrong idea about things.

[theist]

 

Yeah I just read the NM piece as well and although I gotta admit it is intelligently written I have to agree with your conclusion in rejecting his conclusion based on the reasons you stated in regards to the holy names vanquishing sinful reactions and hearing SB from proper source being part of the diksa process. The devil is in the details as they say.

 

Yes he is turning Sridhar Maharaja's clear words on their head. One can just feel Sridhar Maharaja is speaking from inspiration and realization and pure appreciation for the name of Krishna.

 

NM goes on to say diksa as in brahmana intiation is needed for archana. Sure, fine, no problem. Pujaris need to be brahmanas before they can serve on the temple altar but one does not need to be a temple pujari to develop love for Krishna.

 

And speaking of the SB let's not forget Sukadeva Gosvami never bothered with thread and a formal diksa ceremony.

[theist]

 

gimme a break, sounds good on paper, but I think you need to practice what you preach.

 

 

The difference you will not find in any of my posts were I call myself a devotee, Vaisnava or a disciple of anyone, whereas you are strutting around playing the big time Iskcon man from back in day. Apparently you haven't yet understood that nobody here is impressed with Iskcons pompous peacock crowd from back in the day.

 

I do treasure the few weeks I received Jayanda's association and the very brief times I was fortunately received the presence of Vishnujana. I met many sweet beginning bhaktas also but I always avoided persons such as you described yourself to be. But I am sure even you had your moments of gentleness and concern for others. Hopefully even a few "Bhakta Louies" along the way.

[krsna]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Initiation ceremony on Nrsimha-caturdasi 2008 in New Vraja-dhama, Hungary given by HH Sivarama Swami Maharaja

 

• Initiation doesn’t mean we join a personality cult: it represents the disciplic succession, Krishna, and the institution of ISKCON.
  
• 
  
• The inclusion of the institution is not a modern addition: the spiritual master represents the guru parampara, but here the additional aspect is the institution that Srila Prabhupada founded.
  
• 
  
• Spreading the Krishna conscious message obviously wasn’t going to happen in a village: it only spread throughout the world with the cooperation of the guru-parampara.
  
• 
  
• Jiva Goswami is the siddhanta-acarya, and he wrote that an institution was necessary for spreading Krishna consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

• The varna-asrama system has degraded due to the absence of kings to maintain it.
  
• 
  
• A religious institution doesn’t have as much power as it had in the hands of the kings.
  
• 
  
• Structure means rules, regulations, goals, and heirarchy: on this basis, the movement can spread.
  
• 
  
• Srila Prabhupada showed that even mlecchas, within the shelter of an institution, can achieve more than the great brahmanas.
  
• 
  
• This institution represents the only formula for success for preaching Vaisnavism in Kali-yuga.
  
• 
  
• Initiation means we become official “card carrying members” of the Krishna consciousness movement.
  
• 
  
• We should not bring the institution down to our material vision but appreciate it’s transcendental nature.
  
• 
  
• As devotees take more and more responsibility for spreading Krishna consciousness, it becomes more and more manifest to them.
  
• 
  
• What is our responsibility to this movement? Tamal Krishna Goswami used to say that we should think that “maybe everyone else might leave this movement and I’m the only one left, but I will still continue Srila Prabhupada’s mission.”
  
• 
  
• Srila Prabhupada said if you work selflessly for Krishna, even if you can’t remember Him at that time, He will remember you.

 

[theist]

 

Never have payed much attention to the writings of Prabhupadas Godbrothers but this one surely gets my attention because it seems to be in the same spirit that I get out of Prabhupada and I can appreciate that.

 

 

Yes it is easy to see how devotees are inspired to hear from him.

[Amlesh]

 

My response is very approproiate for this numbskull cbrahma who is making a total fool of himself along with his nasty attitude to Vaishnavas.

 

BTW, what is YOUR devotional background, 'forums'?

 

please answer VERY specifically

 

 

First understand the meaning of Devotion, then start asking question.

[cbrahma]

 

I lived as a brahmacari in the Winnipeg temple under Rocana dasa and later on in New Dwarka under Gopala bhata and then Rameswara.

Just see not even the infamous Rameswara would accept you as a disciple, this explains alot! Gopala Bhatta was my Guru Bhai from Detroit from way back before he was TP in LA (BTW he sent for me be his assitant in LA) so I guess you must have been one of those we didn't pay much attention to, what was your name then, Bhakta Louie?

When I say I was in the temple 'under', that doesn't mean I was their disciple. I was an unitiated bhramacari. I remain uninitiated to this day, thank God.

[cbrahma]

 

Very specifically such things are between myself and God. Mind your own business 3 dot.

♣♣♣ is competing on the basis of 'my sanga is better than your sanga' neener neener.

...or my devotional position is higher than your devotional position.

- any value that could be gained on the spiritual path is lost in this egotistical competitive mentality.

This should be so obvious and fundamental if one has had any training at all. It's like boasting one is a mathematician and not being able to add.

[cbrahma]

 

Small world! He was my Guru Bhai there as well, for a while. I also remember seeing Gopala Bhatta in Dallas in '79, but that might have been just after he was TP in LA, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm trying to place who you might be, but I've lost touch with the devotees I once knew in Detroit. Anyway, nice to have you here on the forums, Prabhu.

He left ISKCON to develop his own business for a while. .He was not well liked among his Godbrothers. I interviewed for a job with him and he made that complaint.

[cbrahma]

 

I read the BR SM post and I found it to be consistent with my understanding of Prabhupada's writings so I find it puzzling how beggar has turned what BR SM said in that post into the living guru issue etc. Just don't get it. The writings of BR SM in that piece seem to be completely contradictory to what Kulapavana and some others have been saying in this thread about the absolute necessity of ceremonial initiation into the gayatri mantra and their seeming minimalization of the holy name etc. unless I am reading it wrong.

 

 

"The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The mantra comes to help us only so far."

 

 

Never have payed much attention to the writings of Prabhupadas Godbrothers but this one surely gets my attention because it seems to be in the same spirit that I get out of Prabhupada and I can appreciate that.

I need to jump in here. The GM disciples, regardless of their gurus are very hot on the physical guru issue as indeed are ISKCON disciples.

The reason for this is political - get more disciples , increase your power base. Prabhupada, however, though he wanted trained up brahmanas for arcana was very merciful and allowed everybody to engage at their own pace and inclination, not insisting that one 'shave up'. He was truly a krpa-sindhu , an ocean of mercy. His lectures are full of references , as you well know, about how vani is as good as vapu.

[krsna]

 

Because during his manifest lila during the years from around 1943 to 1988 Srila Sridhar Maharaj was a "living guru". IOW he was a person who appeared to have form in this world although we accept that his body was totally spiritualized. Through his sound vibration he always emphasized substance over form (formality). Yet, he gave formal hare nama and diksa mantra initiation to his followers, the same way that his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did. The same way that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did. You could always take the concept of subtance over form to the extreme as some do. You could say that since Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said there are no hard and fast rules for the chanting of the holy names of Krsna, it is completely unnecessary to chant on tulasi mala, that one should just chant in his mind. But we have been instructed to chant on tulasi mala at least 16 rounds of hare nama daily. We have also been told to receive these beads after they have been chanted on by our guru. Then there are so many details of devotional service; the idea of substance over form is basically not to sweat the details. The details are there, but try to look for the inner devotional meaning of the details. The anti-diksa proponents not only minimize the details of sadhana bhakti but the main pillar which is guru nistha or firm faith in guru. They think that only Prabhupada's books are necessary but within those books he has given the example of how one cannot become a medical doctor just by reading books, but rather one must study directly under a bona fide medical doctor (medical college). Srila Sridhar Maharaj had formal diksa from his guru and most of the persons that he was speaking to (Sri Guru and His Grace comes from recorded talks) also had formal diksa. And most of those who did not, later took it directly from him. His teachings must be viewed in this context otherwise one will get a completely wrong idea about things.

 

 

 

Save me

 

 

 

“I surrender. You may do whatever you like with me. I am the worst of sinners. What to do with me now is in your hands. You, Savior, I have come to you. If there is any possibility—save me. This is my open appeal, my one-sided appeal.”

This sort of self-abnegation will automatically cleanse our hearts. By this attitude of saranagati, or surrender, we invite the greatest attention from above. Saranagati, surrender, is the only way to be reinstated in our lost prospect.”

~ from Sri Guru and His Grace by Swami B.R. Sridhar

 

[Kulapavana]

 

You tried to establish formal diksa as an absolute requirement for engagement in Krsna consciousness.

 

The Vedic system was such that only people belonging to the three higher varnas were seen as worthy of diksa and for them it was a requirement. It was a good and practical system. The idea that you can make brahmanas out of sudras has proven to be wrong. There is nothing more practical than the classic varnashrama system when it comes to that issue. So for those of sudra nature or lower diksa is not required.

[cbrahma]

 

The Vedic system was such that only people belonging to the three higher varnas were seen as worthy of diksa and for them it was a requirement. It was a good and practical system. The idea that you can make brahmanas out of sudras has proven to be wrong. There is nothing more practical than the classic varnashrama system when it comes to that issue. So for those of sudra nature or lower diksa is not required.

Of course that's not you, since you got yourself a fire sacrifice from a fallen guru. This is the Western world in Kali-Yuga. The classic Vedic system is not even in place in India at this time. Get serious. Everybody in Kali-Yuga is born sudra or lower.

[Kulapavana]

 

Everybody in Kali-Yuga is born sudra or lower.

 

We may all be born sudra or lower, but we do not have to stay that way. As the BG says, all 4 varnas are a natural creation of Krsna. If you cultivate properly your natural tendencies, you can ascend to the proper varna of your natural position. This is what the Vaishnava reformers in our line have been teaching.

 

My diksa was hard earned, and the person giving it had the right qualifications at the time. But what would you know about either (proper qualifications for giving and accepting of diksa)? The level of bias, arrogance, and ignorance is consistent with those displayed by the many acid-head hippies Prabhupada gave shelter to in America. Many of these low born people have elevated themselves to the level of wonderful Vaishnavas. That is not quite the case with you. You are full of malice even towards very advanced Vaishnavas like Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja, what to speak of common sadhakas like me. I bear no grudge with you but Krsna will not easily forgive you the nonsense you are saying about His dear devotees like SM and NM. Just like other people who offend Vaishnavas, you are unable to advance past your very preliminary kanistha stage. May Krsna have mercy on you.

[shvu]

 

Get serious. Everybody in Kali-Yuga is born sudra or lower.

 

Nonsense as usual...but just to ask, does this include Prabhupada and Chaitanya?

[♣♣♣]

Srila Prabupada was always very PROUD of his initiated disciples,

 

Those of you who minimize his giving of initiations are insulting HIM directly!

[♣♣♣]

Thiest,

 

you jumped to quickly to insult me when I was only being sarcastic about cbrahma in LA, yet you run to defend his complete nonsense.

 

You want to lump all initiated devotees in with the arrogant bastards that destroyed my Gurujis movement, sorry you don't know me pal, at all!

[bhaktajan]

1) His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on October 6, 1969, at Conway Hall, London, England [iso. Intro.]:

 

" . . . the Vedic injunction is that one must approach—the word “compulsory” is used—a bona fide spiritual master, a guru. And what is the qualification of a spiritual master?

 

He is one who has rightly heard the Vedic message from the right source. And he must practically be firmly established in Brahman. These are the two qualities he must have. Otherwise he is not bona fide. . . . "

---------------

 

2) The diaspora of ISKCON's first initiates were destined to be dispersed --especially those who went back to their home towns. Three generations is not along time to wait for changes of heart in the masses, among whom we must live.

 

All we need is assurance that ashram life will be available for old-timers when the time comes.

[Beggar]

C C brahma, see what you done done

C C brahma, you see what you done done

You C C brahma, you see what you done done

You done made me listen to you and now my bhakti creeper is done

 

My home is in Vaikuntha, I don't like no matter at all

Home's in Vaikuntha, I don't like no matter at all

I'd rather be dead than to stay here and be your dog

So you C C brahma, see what you done done

C C brahma, you see what you done done

C C brahma, you see what you done done

You done made me listen to you and now my bhakti creeper is done

[theist]

 

Thiest,

 

you jumped to quickly to insult me when I was only being sarcastic about cbrahma in LA, yet you run to defend his complete nonsense.

 

You want to lump all initiated devotees in with the arrogant bastards that destroyed my Gurujis movement, sorry you don't know me pal, at all!

 

I only know you by your own words. Want to offer a different profile then watch what you say.

 

And nobody is attacking Prabhupada's disciples for being initiated or even the idea of formal initiation. It is the idea of form over substance that we put into question. Also it is incumbant upon those claiming to be Prabhupada's disciples to show their discipleship in their words and deeds when dealing with other members. That is an extra pressure that those claiming discipleship call upon themselves.being a disciple of a particular guru means what you say and do reflects back on your spiritual master. There is a great responsiblity that comes with being a disciple.

 

Perhaps if you spent a little more time on this forum listen and getting to know the participants you would be less inclined to be calling others fools and similar names.

 

You asked about my position. As for myself I do not consider myself initiated formally or informally. I spent a little less than six months in strict temple life in 1971. I found the discipline of such a strict sadhana to be far more then I was willing to commit to. I make no secrect of the fact that I am considerably below the vaidhi bhakti level and am in no way fit to be anyone's disciple.

 

I do consider myself to be somewhere in the long process of diksa which I consider to be the reception of transcendental knowledge and the total transformation of consciousness and change of heart that comes from transcendental knowledge.

 

I am a little bitter about what I have seen some of Prabhupada's "properly initiated disciples" do to his Krishna consciousness movement which has been nothing short of ignoring the transcendental portion of the message. The result has been form over substance.

 

Now I have no beef with the everyday devotees in Iskcon. My beef is with the leadership and their ecclesiastical guru program which has contaminatinated all of Iskcon. On this thread we are challenging the form over substance idea of diksa which is a problem that reaches far beyond Iskcon.

 

I would like to start over with you and extend a hand of friendship. We needn't agree on various philosophical ideas but the name calling most stop. I apologize for my harshness.

[♣♣♣]

I would like to start over with you and extend a hand of friendship. We needn't agree on various philosophical ideas but the name calling most stop. I apologize for my harshness.

I completely accept and apologize for any harshness on my part as well..!

Jai Radhe