Definition Of Diksha

[theist 1]

Formal intiation when given by Krishna's devotee is a purely spiritual action. That is because he is actingthat is motivated by love for Krishna. Such a devotee transforms even the simple most ordinary activity into spiritual energy. If he plays with a child that is spiritual also.

 

Now in the beginning the disciple does not understand this. But if he is faithful to the instructions of such a lover of Krishna Krishna will bless Him from within to properly recognize the value of the devotees touch in these activities.

 

If however the apparant disciple balks at the idea of loving Krishna and chooses to stay on the external level of bodily actions only then HE lives in a mundane religious conception and identifies himself as hindu muslim christian buddhist "vaisnava" etc.

 

What he was handed by the guru lover of Krishna was purely transcendental but he only accepted the external portion and rejected the vital portion which is love for Krishna and by so doing choose to perceive something spiritual as mundane. And since we are all bound up by the limits of our perceptions his conceptual prision cell is called 'mundane religion.'

 

Formal initiation rites become mundane in the hands of pretenders and imitators who only mimic the shadow action of the devotee (external movements) without the love for Krishna.

 

He apparantly chants the same mantras, performs the same rituals but without the love for Krishna.

 

Without the vital ingredient of love for Krishna everything is simply an empty shell. Without the love for Krishna there is no connection to TRANSCENDENTAL VAISNAVISM. It is only an empty shell of vaisnavism which goes no further than "keeping up the tradition."

 

The tradition of the Spiritual Sky is love for Krishna. That is the tradition we need to be most concerned with.

[suchandra 1]

 

That was often the most cherished day of their lives!!!

Prabhupada used to explain it this way. A student graduates at school. He passed through all the tests and finally when having finished the school days there's a diploma. This diploma however is nothing but a formality, a graduation ceremony of having gone through the whole school education.

Without having gone through the whole schooling there's no question of receiving the high school diploma. A disciple who successfully went through the whole schooling but misses the final ceremony - the high school graduation - will surely also get soon his certificate of having passed the high school graduation. And here Prabhupada says, because it is a formality. The qualification is already achieved and the final ceremony is a formality because all the work to achieve the qualification was done already.

Whenever a spiritual master considers a disciple as qualified for initiation it should be clear that this disciple acquired the predicate by his qualification.

The very formality was obviously also for Prabhupada of no real importance.

Prabhupada highlighted that to act like a Vaishnava is what realy counts.

 

"Prabhupada: Yes, that is the first offense. Guror avajna, sruti- sastra-nindanam. Sruti-sastra-nindanaṁ guror avajna. If you accept guru and again disobey him, then what is your position? You are not a gentleman. You promise before guru, before Krsna, before fire, that “I shall obey your order; I shall execute this,” and again you do not do this. Then you are not even a gentleman, what to speak about devotee. This is common sense."

 

Bhagavad-gita 2.11

(with Spanish translator)

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Mexico, February 11, 1975

 

In other words, Prabhupada says that by acting totally against the principles of Vaishnavism you can undo your being initiated.

Therefore it should be clear, the actual importance is not the fire yajna ritual but to be actually situated on the spiritual platform by performing devotional activities.

 

Prabhupada: Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… Sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. Sas. Sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Sastra. Sastra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.

Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline. So…

Siddha-svarupa: So there is no disagreement with that. I have no disagreement.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the point.

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

March 8, 1976, Māyāpur

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Prabhupada used to explain it this way. A student graduates at school. He passed through all the tests and finally when having finished the school days there's a diploma. This diploma however is nothing but a formality, a graduation ceremony of having gone through the whole school education.

 

Diksa is nothing like graduation. It is more like your first day in school - an Admission Day.

[suchandra 1]

 

Diksa is nothing like graduation. It is more like your first day in school - an Admission Day.

Well Prabhupada himself gave that example, but as usual you reject.

 

Devotee : How important is formal initiation?

Prabhupāda: Formal initiation means to accept, officially, to abide by the orders of Krsna and His representative. That is formal initiation. Officially accept, “Yes, sir, I shall accept. I shall do whatever you say.” This is initiation, official acceptance of the job. That’s all. Now, you formally accept, and if you do not do the duties, then where is the question of other function? There is no question. Initiation means this is the beginning of accepting the orders of Kṛṣṇa and His representative to carry out. This is the beginning. That is initiation. Just like if you enter in an office establishment, so you accept the terms of service. That is initiation. Then you go on serving, you become promoted, you get salary increase. You become recognized. You become officer. You become big officer, like that. That very word initiation suggests, “This is the beginning.” Dīkṣā, dīkṣā. Di… Divya. There are two words, divya-jñāna. Divya-jñāna means transcendental, spiritual knowledge. So divya is dī, and jñānam, kṣapayati, explaining, that is kṣa, dī-kṣā. This is called dīkṣā, dīkṣā, the combination. So dīkṣā means the initiation to begin transcendental activities. That is called initiation. Therefore we take promise from the disciple that “You chant so many times,” “Yes, sir.” “You observe these rules and regulations,” “Yes, sir.” That is initiation. He has to observe; he has to chant. Then everything comes automatically.

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.1.15

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Auckland, February 22, 1973

 

So these initiation formalities are there. You are instructed, you are guided, but you have to act. Unless you act, then the same thing as in India—the so- called brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas are degraded. There will be no meaning. So guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. You have to stick to the brahminical qualities, and at the same time work. Brahma-karma. Brahman is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the last word of Brahman. So you have to engage yourself, brahma-karma, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And exhibit your quality, that you are truthful, you are controlling control over the senses, control over the mind, and you are simple, and you are tolerant. Because as soon as you take up spiritual life, the whole class conducted by māyā, they will be against you. That is māyā’s influence. Somebody will criticize. Somebody will do this, somebody will do that, but we shall… We have to become tolerant. This is the disease of this material world. If anyone becomes spiritually advanced, the agents of māyā will criticize. So therefore you have to become tolerant. And simple, simplicity. Ārjavam, titikṣa ārjavam, and jñāna, and you must be fully equipped with knowledge. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata is there. Now we are publishing other books also, Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So read them. These three or four books, if you read, you become fully qualified with knowledge. And vijñānam, and apply them in your practical life. And āstikyam, in full faith of the procedures and in Kṛṣṇa. That will make you successful. All right. Get up. (japa) [break] Come forward. Now you keep your mālikā, mālā, down. You have to offer it.

 

Initiation Ceremony of Viṣṇujana

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

San Francisco, March 24, 1968

 

Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?

Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge…knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

 

Press Interview

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

October 16, 1976, Chandigarh

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination. That is initiation."

(morning walk, Seattle, 02/10/68)

 

"The chanting Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamala Krsna, 19 August, 1968)

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Well Prabhupada himself gave that example, but as usual you reject.

 

 

Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge…knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality.

 

 

He also said the same thing I said. I do not reject. I try to understand. I was never anybody's parrot.

[cbrahma 0]

 

LOL! You wish it was that simple!

Yes I guess you could call it simple - simple arrogance.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Yes, Prabhupada is one of the gurus in the Saraswata line of the Gaudiya Vaishnavism and his statements must be compared to the statements of his guru, other Vaishnava acharyas, and Vaishnava shastras. And things like the Moon issue show that you have to apply some discretion when it comes to blind acceptance of everything he ever said.

Don't try to implicate traditionalism into this. On questions Prabhupada's teachings conform perfectly with his spiritual master and his spiritual master before him.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge…knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality.

 

 

He also said the same thing I said. I do not reject. I try to understand. I was never anybody's parrot.

 

Apparently you don't understand analogy. If admission is formality then so is the diksa initation ritual.

[theist 1]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Yes, Prabhupada is one of the gurus in the Saraswata line of the Gaudiya Vaishnavism and his statements must be compared to the statements of his guru, other Vaishnava acharyas, and Vaishnava shastras. And things like the Moon issue show that you have to apply some discretion when it comes to blind acceptance of everything he ever said.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Don't try to implicate traditionalism into this. Prabhupada's teachings conform perfectly with his spiritual master and his spiritual master before him.

 

 

With Kulapavana's approach one must also then compare Sirla Bhaktisiddhanta to Gaura Kishore and Bhaktivinode. And then one must compare them to their predessors ad infinitum. And he calls himself a traditionalist?!

When accepting a guru as a representative of the parampara you accept that he is the embodiment of that parampara. The cross checking he describes may be a part of one's search in finding a guru but it must be given up once one finds and surrenders to someone as guru.

 

Endlessly cross-checking and doubting is a symptom of being stuck on the mental plane.

 

Actually despite all his preaching to us about the need to formally accept a guru Kulapavana himself has yet to accept a guru himself despite his ceremony from a zonal 'guru'.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Apparently you don't understand analogy. If admission is formality then so is the diksa initation ritual.

 

It can also be said that you are not getting in without that 'formality'.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

When accepting a guru as a representative of the parampara you accept that he is the embodiment of that parampara. The cross checking he describes may be a part of one's search in finding a guru but it must be given up once one finds and surrenders to someone as guru.

 

Endlessly cross-checking and doubting is a symptom of being stuck on the mental plane.

 

Actually despite all his preaching to us about the need to formally accept a guru Kulapavana himself has yet to accept a guru himself despite his ceremony from a zonal 'guru'.

 

1. Cross checking is always relevant

2. It is not a question of doubt. It is a question of proper understanding. Prabhupada's statements MUST be understood in the light of previous acharyas. Concoctions such as ritvikism and sleeper-vada are prime examples of what happens if one decides to rely on his guru's statements alone.

3. The formal acceptance of siksa guru by me is my own private matter, but I can tell you that there are two living Vaishnavas that I see in that category at the present moment.

[cbrahma 0]

 

It can also be said that you are not getting in without that 'formality'.

Bogus. What is in? The beginning of a learning process. The real learning takes place afterwards - that is what siksa is all about.

 

Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing."

(Srila Prabhupada: Press Interview, Chandigarh, 10/16/76)

 

I have quoted this several times and it still hasn't sunk in.

Formality means external. Formality means mere ritual. There is nothing magical about it.

That is the understanding of a child.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

On questions Prabhupada's teachings conform perfectly with his spiritual master and his spiritual master before him.

 

And you know that exactly HOW? Did Bhaktisiddhanta ever said we fell from Goloka? Or that the Sun is closer to Earth than Moon?

 

And what exactly do you know about the teachings of Srila Gaurakishora?

 

Blind faith is good, but the actual knowledge is better, even when the emerging truth is much more complicated than we initially thought.

[cbrahma 0]

 

1. Cross checking is always relevant

2. It is not a question of doubt. It is a question of proper understanding. Prabhupada's statements MUST be understood in the light of previous acharyas. Concoctions such as ritvikism and sleeper-vada are prime examples of what happens if one decides to rely on his guru's statements alone.

3. The formal acceptance of siksa guru by me is my own private matter, but I can tell you that there are two living Vaishnavas that I see in that category at the present moment.

If you find yourself continually 'checking' your diksa guru's teachings after he has initiated you - then where is your commitment - your surrender to him as your initiator. When you take a class, if you are constantly checking your teacher against other teachers why bother taking the class from that teacher? Very offensive.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Bogus. What is in? The beginning of a learning process. The real learning takes place afterwards - that is what siksa is all about.

 

You are not getting into the school without being formally accepted. If you insist on staying outside and listening to the class through an open widow it is still called learning, but you are not really in school and you only get part of the lesson.

[cbrahma 0]

 

And you know that exactly HOW? Did Bhaktisiddhanta ever said we fell from Goloka? Or that the Sun is closer to Earth than Moon?

 

And what exactly do you know about the teachings of Srila Gaurakishora?

 

Blind faith is good, but the actual knowledge is better, even when the emerging truth is much more complicated than we initially thought.

When you are learning from somebody, it is hardly blind faith. So now you endorse independant learning in the same breath as formal diksa. How strange.

I don't want to restart those other topics. This is a thread about diksa and Prabhupada's instructions on the subject. You can endlessly dodge firm instructions by constantly throwing them up to question against this text or that guru, or that sadhu. If that guru truly belongs to the sampradaya what is the need?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

If you find yourself continually 'checking' your diksa guru's teachings after he has initiated you - then where is your commitment - your surrender to him as your initiator. When you take a class, if you are constantly checking your teacher against other teachers why bother taking the class from that teacher? Very offensive.

 

The 'surrender' bit is way over-emphasized in Iskcon. When you learn you always have a teacher, a book, and other experts on the subject available to you. I have spent many years in various schools - that is a system and there is nothing offensive about it.

[cbrahma 0]

 

You are not getting into the school without being formally accepted. If you insist on staying outside and listening to the class through an open widow it is still called learning, but you are not really in school and you only get part of the lesson.

The teachings are available without formal admittance. What is this so-called school?

[cbrahma 0]

 

The 'surrender' bit is way over-emphasized in Iskcon. When you learn you always have a teacher, a book, and other experts on the subject available to you. I have spent many years in various schools - that is a system and there is nothing offensive about it.

Don't argue with slogans. This has nothing to do with ISKCON and everything to do with Prabhupada's instructions.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

This is a thread about diksa and Prabhupada's instructions on the subject. You can endlessly dodge firm instructions by constantly throwing them up to question against this text or that guru, or that sadhu. If that guru truly belongs to the sampradaya what is the need?

 

Prabhupada's firm instruction and practical example is that you get a diksa from a proper sampradaya. Do you see me question that? You are the one questioning the need for diksa and the one coming up with new definitions of what diksa is.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The teachings are available without formal admittance. What is this so-called school?

 

You are not a member of the particular sampradaya unless you get a diksa from the guru representing it. The school is the sampradaya. Without diksa mantras you are not even a Vaishnava. That is the conclusion of Hari Bhakti Vilasa as quoted earlier.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Prabhupada's firm instruction and practical example is that you get a diksa from a proper sampradaya. Do you see me question that? You are the one questioning the need for diksa and the one coming up with new definitions of what diksa is.

Not so. I have quoted his instructions over and over again on this point. His practice varied according to time and circumstance and included ritvik initiations and he even suggested that some do not get brahminical initiation.

You are in danger of accusing him of not practicing what he preaches.

But I wouldn't put that past you.

[cbrahma 0]

 

You are not a member of the particular sampradaya unless you get a diksa from the guru representing it. The school is the sampradaya. Without diksa mantras you are not even a Vaishnava. That is the conclusion of Hari Bhakti Vilasa as quoted earlier.

I see. So you have to get a membership card so that you can do independant study that anybody could do without it.

You have an institutional/religious concept of Vaisnavism which is not that of the sampradaya to which Prabhupada belonged.

[stonehearted 0]

 

The 'surrender' bit is way over-emphasized in Iskcon

Actually, surrender as taught by our acharyas is under-emphasized. Perhaps what's over-emphasized is a misunderstanding of what surrender is. Actually, the essence of surrender is complete dependence on Krishna for everything. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Saranagati prayers explore quite well what surrender is and what it may look like. Surrender is the gateway to bhakti, and, the Thakura says, Sri Nanda Kumar actually hears the prayers of those actively engaged in surrender.

[stonehearted 0]

 

You are not a member of the particular sampradaya unless you get a diksa from the guru representing it. The school is the sampradaya. Without diksa mantras you are not even a Vaishnava. That is the conclusion of Hari Bhakti Vilasa as quoted earlier.

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly used school as an example. He often said that someone may read many medical books on his (or her) own, but they won't be accepted as a surgeon unless they've been admitted to a recognized medical school, submitted to qualified medical professors for instruction and been examined and certified by them.