Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Your number 1 is certainly a mistaken idea.

Krishna or Vishnu are not "energy".

They are energetic - shaktiman.

Energy is the shakti.

The source and master of the energy is the shaktiman.

 

Krishna is not energy.

Krishna is the source and basis of energy.

 

As far as classifying any form of bhakta-tattva in Goloka as a marginal jiva, I don't think shastra supports that idea.

 

We might hear some indirect statements about that in the preaching work of Srila Prabhupada, but, as far as shastra actually classifying the bhakta-tattva jivas of Goloka as "marginal", I don't think that can be established on the basis of shastra.

 

To refer to Krishna as "energy" shows a very defective understanding of Vaishnava siddhanta.

That is like refering to a nuclear power plant as electricity.

 

You have completely misunderstood my post. I was trying to be simple and short thinking you would understand - read the reply to Beggers post.

 

 

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I still maintain this puzzle cannot be solved philosophically and that we must take Bhaktivinodes advice and realize it rather than bat it about between those with opposing opinions.

 

 

 

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Very honest and intelligent point, you have the weight of Srila Prabhupada's teachings to back you up

 

Quote:

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Mathematically then if there is no past, present or future as we are acquainted with it, can we take for granted we are likely already in Goloka, is that your aphorism?

 

 

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With all due respects I will not go into this however, it is a sincere question answered clearly by thiest, I'm with him on this now. When I am genuinly Krishna Conscious, then I will understand and not before that through philosophical debate. When we are 'sincerely and dedicated to our Spiritual Master', only then will he reward us, and our service to Krishna will be revealed

 

Quote:

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In a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna.

 

 

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Servant of the servant of the servant - the greatest devotees, nice posting theist

[Guruvani 0]

I think there is a clue in this purport by Srila Prabhupada that explains that such designations as marginal potency and external potency refer to certain conditions.

The conditions that dictate such designations as marginal potency and external potency do not exist in the spiritual world, so how can there be such a conception as a marginal jiva within the antaranga-shakti that constitutes the spiritual world?

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96, purport:

 

 

Although all three potencies — namely internal, external and marginal — are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions. The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa. One who is able to understand the intricacies of all these energies of the Supreme Lord can no longer remain an empiric impersonalist under the influence of a poor fund of knowledge

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

I think there is a clue in this purport by Srila Prabhupada that explains that such designations as marginal potency and external potency refer to certain conditions.

The conditions that dictate such designations as marginal potency and external potency do not exist in the spiritual world, so how can there be such a conception as a marginal jiva within the antaranga-shakti that constitutes the spiritual world?

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96, purport:

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: From the Teachings of Lord Caitanya Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization

 

"I - The original energy of the Supreme Lord is spiritual and nondifferent from the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead.

 

2 - The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord.

 

3 -The material energy is called the inferior energy.

 

Due to his material inebriety (temporary state - a state that continues for a limited time), the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries.

 

Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position.

 

According to Vedic instructions, one should understand the constitutional position of the living entity, the position of the Lord, and the position of material energy in their interrelation.

 

First of all, one should try to understand the constitutional position of the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead. That Supreme Lord has an eternal, cognizant, blissful body, and His spiritual energy is distributed as eternity, knowledge and bliss.

 

In His blissful identity can be found His pleasure potency, and in His eternal identity He can be seen as the cause of everything. In His cognizant identity, He is the supreme knowledge. Indeed, the word kṛṣṇa indicates that supreme knowledge.

 

In other words, the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, is the reservoir of all knowledge, pleasure and eternity.

 

The supreme knowledge of Kṛṣṇa is exhibited in three different energies

 

— internal, marginal and external.

 

A - By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia;

 

B - By means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

 

C - By means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance. (awareness, consciousness, cognizance, cognisance, knowingness)

 

1 - The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency.

 

2 - However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead.

 

The Supreme Lord enjoys six kinds of opulences, and no one can establish that He is formless or that He is without energy. If someone claims so, his contention is completely opposed to the Vedic instructions.

 

Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of ali energies.

 

It is only the living entity, who is an infinitesimal part and parcel of Him, who is overpowered by the material energy".End of quotes from the Teachings of Lord CaitanyaCopyright © The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Inc.

 

 

[Beggar 0]

Sarva gattah, What is the point you are making in your post? If you don't understand what Guruvani is saying then to be blunt, it does not seem that you are capable of abstract thinking:

 

abstract thinking n. Thinking characterized by the ability to use concepts and to make and understand generalizations, such as of the properties or pattern shared by a variety of specific items or events.

 

[Beggar 0]

 

"The personal associates of Radharani, the gopi damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. These expansions of Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krishna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes of Vrindavana. By the expansions of Radharani's personal body, She helps Lord Krishna taste the rasa-dance and similar other activities." (Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.81 purport)

Do you still think that the "gopi damsels of Vraja" are marginal jiva souls?

Example of how sages became "gopi damsels of Vraja" in their next life:

From Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 16,

This development of conjugal love for Krsna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krsna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrindaban. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrindaban when Krsna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krsna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life.

The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrindaban, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krsna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krsna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krsna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrindaban. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krsna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krsna.

Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krsna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula, and as they had desired in their previous lives, they enjoyed the company of Lord Krsna, who was present at that time in Gokula Vrindaban. The perfection of their human form of life was thus achieved by their generating a transcendental sentiment to share conjugal love with Lord Krsna.

This development of conjugal love for Krsna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krsna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrindaban. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrindaban when Krsna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krsna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life.

The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrindaban, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krsna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krsna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krsna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrindaban. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krsna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krsna.

Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krsna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula, and as they had desired in their previous lives, they enjoyed the company of Lord Krsna, who was present at that time in Gokula Vrindaban. The perfection of their human form of life was thus achieved by their generating a transcendental sentiment to share conjugal love with Lord Krsna.

 

[Guruvani 0]

The marginal potency is referred to as marginal potency because this potency is manifested in the marginal line between the material and spiritual world.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10 purport,

 

The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River, and beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation.

The marginal jivas are called as such because they have their origin in the marginal potency of the Lord. It is called marginal potency because this potency is manifested by Lord Vishnu in the marginal line of the Viraja River or Causal Ocean that forms the bufffer zone between the material and spiritual world.

 

The entire spiritual world is comprised of the internal antaranga-shakti - the svarupa or chit shakti of Krishna.

There is no such thing as marginal potency within the internal potency.

Marginal potency is called marginal potency because it is manifested in the Viraja - the marginal line between the material and spiritual world.

 

When a jiva is integrated into the svarupa-shakti - the internal potency of Krishna then that jiva is no longer a marginal potency but has entered the domain of internal potency.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.101

 

cic-chakti, svarūpa-śakti, antarańgā nāma

tāhāra vaibhava ananta vaikuṇṭhādi dhāma

 

SYNONYMS

cit-śakti — spiritual energy; svarūpa-śakti — personal energy; antaḥ-ańgā — internal; nāma — named; tāhāra — of that; vaibhava — manifestations; ananta — unlimited; vaikuṇṭha-ādi — Vaikuṇṭha, etc.; dhāma — abodes.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The cit-śakti, which is also called svarūpa-śakti or antarańga-śakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.102

 

māyā-śakti, bahirańgā, jagat-kāraṇa

tāhāra vaibhava ananta brahmāṇḍera gaṇa

 

SYNONYMS

māyā-śakti — the illusory energy; bahiḥ-ańgā — external; jagat-kāraṇa — the cause of the universe; tāhāra — of that; vaibhava — manifestations; ananta — unlimited; brahma-aṇḍera — of universes; gaṇa — multitudes.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The external energy, called māyā-śakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.103

 

jīva-śakti taṭasthākhya, nāhi yāra anta

mukhya tina śakti, tāra vibheda ananta

 

SYNONYMS

jīva-śakti — the energy of the living entity; taṭa-stha-ākhya — known as marginal; nāhi — there is not; yāra — of which; anta — end; mukhya — principal; tina — three; śakti — energies; tāra — of them; vibheda — varieties; ananta — unlimited.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

 

 

PURPORT

The internal potency of the Lord, which is called cit-śakti or antarańga-śakti, exhibits variegatedness in the transcendental Vaikuṇṭha cosmos. Besides ourselves, there are unlimited numbers of liberated living beings who associate with the Personality of Godhead in His innumerable features. The material cosmos displays the external energy, in which the conditioned living beings are provided all liberty to go back to the Personality of Godhead after leaving the material tabernacle. The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (6.8) informs us:

 

 

na tasya kāryaḿ karaṇaḿ ca vidyate

na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate

parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate

svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca

 

"The Supreme Lord is one without a second. He has nothing to do personally, nor does He have material senses. No one is equal to Him or greater than Him. He has unlimited, variegated potencies of different names, which exist within Him as autonomous attributes and provide Him full knowledge, power and pastimes."

<<< >>>

 

The jivas of the spiritual world are manifested by the internal potency, not the marginal potency.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains that the jiva soul is actually INTERNAL POTENCY NOT MARGINAL, but because the conditioned jivas are manifested within the material energy they are marginal.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.3.34, purport,

 

 

The living entity, being part and parcel of Parabrahman, is actually internal potency, but because of being in contact with the material energy, he is an emanation of material and spiritual energies.

 

The external potency manifests this material world, the internal potency manifests the spiritual world, and the marginal potency manifests the living entities, who are mixtures of internal and external.

So, it is quite clear that marginal jivas are marginal because they are in contact with the material energy.

When they are no longer in contact with the material energy but are within the svarupa-shakti they are no longer marginal jivas.

 

Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

 

When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy.

When spiritual energy is no longer overwhelmed by ignorance how can it still be marginal potency?

[Guruvani 0]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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[Guruvani 0]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.45

 

'jīva'-nāma taṭasthākhya eka śakti haya

mahā-sańkarṣaṇa — saba jīvera āśraya

 

SYNONYMS

jīva — the living entity; nāma — named; taṭa-sthā-ākhya — known as the marginal potency; eka — one; śakti — energy; haya — is; mahā-sańkarṣaṇa — Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa; saba — all; jīvera — of living entities; āśraya — the shelter.

 

 

TRANSLATION

There is one marginal potency, known as the jīva. Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa is the shelter of all jīvas.

[Guruvani 0]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.40 purport,

 

 

The activities in the spiritual sky are manifested by the internal potency in pure spiritual existence. They expand in six transcendental opulences, which are all manifestations of Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa, who is the ultimate reservoir and objective of all living entities. Although belonging to the marginal potency, known as jīva-śakti, the spiritual sparks known as the living entities are subjected to the conditions of material energy. It is because these sparks are related with both the internal and external potencies of the Lord that they are known as belonging to the marginal potency.

When the jiva is no longer related with the external potency, then how can he be called marginal?

 

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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[Kulapavana 0]

 

If we refer back to pre-ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavism then many of the issues and questions can be resolved because no acharya or guru has the right to change or alter the siddhanta and the conclusions of Mahaprabhu's direct disciples and the great Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

 

Yes, this is the gold standard of Vaishnava teachings. Problem arises when disciples claim their guru's words are absolute because they are "dictated by Krsna". Then, instead of trying to understand their guru's words in the context of the existing tradition, they insist on the absolute nature of literal meaning of these words, which usually leads to the philosophical deviation.

[Beggar 0]

Excellent research, Guruvani. Jaya jayate, bravo bravo, sadhu sadhu!

The slokas and purports that you have quoted should convince any sincere person who is seeking the truth on this subject. The myth that the eternal servants of Bhagavan in the spiritual world are marginal is the underpinning of Sarva gattah's paradigm. Once the underpin is removed the rest of the paradigm collapses for it no longer has any basis. It seems that the correct understanding of the relationship of the material, marginal and spiritual energies (cit-sakti) serves as a basis for also viewing sakti-tattva in proper perspective. Then one can understand and accept the concept of Vaisnava seva or eternal service to the bhaktas, devotees. Without a clear understanding of these things the apex of all conceptions, that of Radha dasyam or divine service connection with Srimati Radharani and her serving camp can never become one's ideal.

Srila Prabhupada states in a purport to Antya Lila 1.25 the following about himself: “Our only desire should be to take birth under the care of a Vaisnava. Fortunately we had the opportunity to be born of a Vaisnava father who took care of us very nicely. He prayed to Srimati Radharani that in the future we would become a servant of the eternal consort of Sri Krsna. Thus somehow or other we are now engaged in that service.”

 

 

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

 

[theist 1]

Well without needing to become offensive to the other side we can agree that there are different ways of viewing the word marginal by devotees. Some see it as a geography while others like myself see it as the intregal nature of the jiva.

 

My view is that I am tatashta or that demarcation line between the land and the sea. By use of my free will I can be controlled by the internal energy or the external energy meaning I can place my consciousness in either field and shift back and forth like the shifting of the line where sea meets the shore.

 

You may have a different view which is your right because you are also marginal. Just because you may have a different view doesn't mean you are incapable of abstract thinking or thinking outside the box as they say.

 

Marginal ultimately means free will to choose to be wrong if one so desires. Free will marks the place where one individual living being has his boundary between himself and all other living beings.

[theist 1]

 

Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

 

[mahak 0]

maybe acintya bheda bheda tattwa is at play here, but there is a fact. In krsna book, the story of how Yasoda became yasoda is there, the many pious other lives she led, the perfection being manifest in her position in gokuladhama.

 

So, if she is a resident of Goloka, meaning as I have read on this thread, that she has never been others, always yasoda, there is a difference.

 

Myself, I fully accept both. Without getting into the very drfy discussion that has been going on concerning origin of jiva, The krsna book description of yasodas prior lives has to be taken into consideration. Like, when krsna pulls all the residents of gokula into goloka as he wraps up his manifest pastimes, does the yasoda of gokula merge into the yasoda of goloka? What is all this merging stuff anyway? Is someone actually saying that vishaka and lalita are not individuals separate from Radharani?

 

individual identity is the basis of this philosophy, and a snare of monism is grabbing all who deny that I am me, not you, not anyone else. This nonsense has me going to gokula, then merging with someone else in goloka?

 

Im going back to sleep.

 

mahak

[Beggar 0]

 

Well without needing to become offensive to the other side we can agree that there are different ways of viewing the word marginal by devotees. Some see it as a geography while others like myself see it as the intregal nature of the jiva.

 

My view is that I am tatashta or that demarcation line between the land and the sea. By use of my free will I can be controlled by the internal energy or the external energy meaning I can place my consciousness in either field and shift back and forth like the shifting of the line where sea meets the shore.

 

You may have a different view which is your right because you are also marginal. Just because you may have a different view doesn't mean you are incapable of abstract thinking or thinking outside the box as they say.

 

Marginal ultimately means free will to choose to be wrong if one so desires. Free will marks the place where one individual living being has his boundary between himself and all other living beings.

 

There maybe many ways to see the same subject, in this case - how we define the word tatastha in relation to the jiva and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur said in the Bhagawat Speech, "no thought is a bad thought". On the other hand if our subjective viewpoint precludes a basic tenent of the Gaudiya Siddhanta such a the preminent nature of the ragatmika bhaktas of Vraja then we are making a major error. The idea of the free nature of love and how it must extend to all levels of Reality must be harmonized with the spiritual hierarchy in that "Land of Love" - Goloka or Vraja dhama. Otherwise all that remains is the worship of Krsna alone, without His principle Sakti and shaktis, the ragatmika bhaktas. Srila Sridhar Maharaja remarked that the worship of Krsna alone is "half-mayavada"? He narrates the story of how Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur met one gentleman who was alledged to be a big devotee of Krsna. Saraswati Thakur asked that man, "under what devotee are you serving" and the man remarked, "none, I have no need, I am serving Krsna directly". Later Saraswati Thakur told to some disciples after that man had left, "I could not trace out any devotion proper, there".

Srila B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja also comments as follows:

"Our Guru Maharaja announced, "We are suddha-sakta." We are worshippers of the potency, but not this mundane potency, but the potency wholesale dedicated to the possessor of the potency. Without retaining Her individual independence, cent per cent dependent - such potency very very rarely can be conceived. 'Direct approaches to Me that is not proper;' but approaching through proper channel, through the devotees, that is proper approach. That is real approach; so Gaudiya Matha eliminates Mirabai and so many other apparent devotees to be real devotees because they are mad in praise of Krsna, but not so much for the devotees of Krsna. (Feb 15, 1982, Sri Caitanya Saraswata Matha, Navadwipa Dhama)

 

[theist 1]

 

maybe acintya bheda bheda tattwa is at play here, but there is a fact. In krsna book, the story of how Yasoda became yasoda is there, the many pious other lives she led, the perfection being manifest in her position in gokuladhama.

 

So, if she is a resident of Goloka, meaning as I have read on this thread, that she has never been others, always yasoda, there is a difference.

 

Myself, I fully accept both. Without getting into the very drfy discussion that has been going on concerning origin of jiva, The krsna book description of yasodas prior lives has to be taken into consideration. Like, when krsna pulls all the residents of gokula into goloka as he wraps up his manifest pastimes, does the yasoda of gokula merge into the yasoda of goloka? What is all this merging stuff anyway? Is someone actually saying that vishaka and lalita are not individuals separate from Radharani?

 

individual identity is the basis of this philosophy, and a snare of monism is grabbing all who deny that I am me, not you, not anyone else. This nonsense has me going to gokula, then merging with someone else in goloka?

 

Im going back to sleep.

 

mahak

 

Never thought of like that but that is the conclusion that that line of thought ends up with. It is monism. I can hear one of these monist's now, calling himself a vaisnava and preaching krsna-lila with the idea that you first merge into a character in krsna lila like Mother Yashoda and then you merge into the Brahman which is beyond lila. Krsna lila being just a fairytale to attract the poor slobs of kali-yuga who can't see beyond the illusion of variegatedness.

 

Razor's edge baby. We ain't out of the woods yet...danger lurks behind every tree.

[theist 1]

 

There maybe many ways to see the same subject, in this case - how we define the word tatastha in relation to the jiva and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur said in the Bhagawat Speech, "no thought is a bad thought". On the other hand if our subjective viewpoint precludes a basic tenent of the Gaudiya Siddhanta such a the preminent nature of the ragatmika bhaktas of Vraja then we are making a major error. The idea of the free nature of love and how it must extend to all levels of Reality must be harmonized with the spiritual hierarchy in that "Land of Love" - Goloka or Vraja dhama. Otherwise all that remains is the worship of Krsna alone, without His principle Sakti and shaktis, the ragatmika bhaktas. Srila Sridhar Maharaja remarked that the worship of Krsna alone is "half-mayavada"? He narrates the story of how Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur met one gentleman who was alledged to be a big devotee of Krsna. Saraswati Thakur asked that man, "under what devotee are you serving" and the man remarked, "none, I have no need, I am serving Krsna directly". Later Saraswati Thakur told to some disciples after that man had left, "I could not trace out any devotion proper, there".

Srila B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja also comments as follows:

So is it your conclusion then that you as a present resident of the outer world can never become a ragatmika bhakta?

[mahak 0]

The answer is on the cover of first canto, where we saee the krsnaloka in full. The activities are going on. Off to the side is Lord Chaitanyas samkirtana party. This is where we are, engaged in facilitation of rasa lila by hearing, cahnting, remembering. This is our perfection, this is our swarupa siddhi. In that samkirtana party, all the rasas, including madurya rasa, are present.

[Guruvani 0]

In this purport, Srila Prabhupada specifically refers to the jiva-shakti - marginal potency as the spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.40 purport,

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The activities in the spiritual sky are manifested by the internal potency in pure spiritual existence. They expand in six transcendental opulences, which are all manifestations of Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa, who is the ultimate reservoir and objective of all living entities. Although belonging to the marginal potency, known as jīva-śakti, the spiritual sparks known as the living entities are subjected to the conditions of material energy. It is because these sparks are related with both the internal and external potencies of the Lord that they are known as belonging to the marginal potency.</td></tr></tbody></table>

When shastra refers to marginal potency it is refering not to servitors in Vaikuntha but to the spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti who are simply on the lowest platform of shanta-rasa in an impersonal conception of reality.

 

The devotee servitors of Vaikuntha are never referred to as living entities.

The jiva-shakti is the sparks of the brahmajyoti.

All the souls who are liberated servitors of Vaikuntha are manifested not by the jiva-shakti but by the svarupa shakti.

 

That is why Vigraha and his likes are so confused because he thinks that all the references to "living entities" refers to all the liberated souls of Vaikuntha when in fact it is simply in reference to the jiva sparks of the brahmajyoti.

 

 

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

This above statement refers to the jivas manifested in the Viraja by Maha-Vishnu and who reject his instructions to come to the light of the spiritual world but instead become enamored by the glittter of the material energy.

This statement has nothing to do with the liberated pure devotees of Krishna in the spiritual world.

It refers only to the marginal jivas who are manifested in the marginal line between the spiritual and material energies.

[Guruvani 0]

Living entity refers to the sparks of the brahmajyoti, not to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha.

This needs to be understood or so many misunderstandings arise from the sayings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

A devotee does not refer to another devotee as 'living entity".

It would be rude and improper.

[Beggar 0]

 

So is it your conclusion then that you as a present resident of the outer world can never become a ragatmika bhakta?

We are now trapped under the sticky mollases of sematics. "Anuga" means to follow. Raganuga bhaktas are therefore followers of ragatmika bhaktas. Of course the reason that they are following is to eventually attain such a position. We are also told in the Gaudiya Saraswat line that we are followers of the Six Goswamis or sad gosai. Krsna das Kaviraja ends each chapter of Caitanya Caritamrta, sri rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa/caitanya caritamrta kahe krsnadasa. So then we find that the Gaudiya Saraswat line really follows or stresses Srila Rupa Goswami and his topmost follower Srila Raghunatha das Goswami and now we have come to the point of the Rupanuga conception. In that conception we are told that in our practicing life we will follow the teachings of Srila Rupa Goswami and that in our perfection, siddha swarupa we will follow him/her as Sri Rupa Manjari. So there is hierarchy everywhere. The prospect of the Gaudiya Saraswat line is not to become Srila Rupa Goswami/Sri Rupa Manjari but to become "like". In this sense "like" will never be equal although the quality will be very similar.

[theist 1]

 

We are now trapped under the sticky mollases of sematics. "Anuga" means to follow. Raganuga bhaktas are therefore followers of ragatmika bhaktas. Of course the reason that they are following is to eventually attain such a position. We are also told in the Gaudiya Saraswat line that we are followers of the Six Goswamis or sad gosai. Krsna das Kaviraja ends each chapter of Caitanya Caritamrta, sri rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa/caitanya caritamrta kahe krsnadasa. So then we find that the Gaudiya Saraswat line really follows or stresses Srila Rupa Goswami and his topmost follower Srila Raghunatha das Goswami and now we have come to the point of the Rupanuga conception. In that conception we are told that in our practicing life we will follow the teachings of Srila Rupa Goswami and that in our perfection, siddha swarupa we will follow him/her as Sri Rupa Manjari. So there is hierarchy everywhere. The prospect of the Gaudiya Saraswat line is not to become Srila Rupa Goswami/Sri Rupa Manjari but to become "like". In this sense "like" will never be equal although the quality will be very similar.

So that is a no? No nitya-baddha can ever become ragatmika according to your understanding? he can however become a follower of a ragatmika? And I hear most everyone at one time or another claim their guru is ragatmika rather he displays it or not according to time place and circumstance.

 

So you would then view your guru as well as Keseva Prajna Maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Bhaktivinode were never nitya baddha and they must have come straight from Goloka to earth, Correct assumption?

 

I am not sure I understand your position very clearly.

[Guruvani 0]

This verse explains:

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.149

 

rāgātmikā-bhakti — 'mukhyā' vraja-vāsi-jane

tāra anugata bhaktira 'rāgānugā'-nāme

 

 

SYNONYMS

rāgātmikā-bhakti — spontaneous devotional service; mukhyā — preeminent; vraja-vāsi-jane — in the inhabitants of Vraja, or Vṛndāvana; tāra — that; anugata — following; bhaktira — of devotional service; rāgānugā-nāme — named rāgānugā or following after spontaneous devotional service.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The original inhabitants of Vṛndāvana are attached to Kṛṣṇa spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called rāgātmikā bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vṛndāvana, his devotional service is called rāgānugā bhakti.

 

 

PURPORT

In his Bhakti-sandarbha, Jīva Gosvāmī states:

 

 

tad evaḿ tat-tad-abhimāna-lakṣaṇa-bhāva-viśeṣeṇa svābhāvika-rāgasya vaiśiṣṭye sati tat-tad-rāga-prayuktā śravaṇa-kīrtana-smaraṇa-pāda-sevana-vandanātma-nivedana-prāyā bhaktis teṣāḿ rāgātmikā bhaktir ity ucyate. . . . tatas tadīyaḿ rāgaḿ rucyānugacchantī sā rāgānugā.

 

 

When a pure devotee follows the footsteps of a devotee in Vṛndāvana, he develops rāgānugā bhakti.

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.150

 

iṣṭe svārasikī rāgaḥ

paramāviṣṭatā bhavet

tan-mayī yā bhaved bhaktiḥ

sātra rāgātmikoditā

 

 

SYNONYMS

iṣṭe — unto the desired object of life; svā-rasikī — appropriate for one's own original aptitude of love; rāgaḥ — attachment; parama-āviṣṭatā — absorption in the service of the Lord; bhavet — is; tat-mayī — consisting of that transcendental attachment; yā — which; bhavet — is; bhaktiḥ — devotional service; sā — that; atra — here; rāgātmikā-uditā — called rāgātmikā, or spontaneous devotional service.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"'When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called rāgātmikā, or spontaneous devotional service.'

 

 

PURPORT

This verse is found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.272).

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.152

 

rāgamayī-bhaktira haya 'rāgātmikā' nāma

tāhā śuni' lubdha haya kona bhāgyavān

 

SYNONYMS

rāga-mayī — consisting of attachment; bhaktira — of devotional service; haya — is; rāgātmikā — spontaneous love; nāma — the name; tāhā śuni' — hearing this; lubdha — covetous; haya — becomes; kona bhāgyavān — some fortunate person.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"Thus devotional service which consists of rāga [deep attachment] is called rāgātmikā, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.