Is there class discrimination in Goloka?

[Guruvani 0]

In Goloka, is there really this differentiation in shaktis that we find in the material world?

Do the principal gopis of Krishna differentiate between conceptions of shakti-tattva and jiva tattva?

Is there any such thing as labeling one class of devotees in Goloka as "marginal" and another class as internal?

 

Does this form of discrimination and gradation of class of souls really exist in Goloka?

 

Would such thinking in Goloka really fit in with the atmosphere of Vrindavan?

 

Here in this purport of Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada explains the parampara conclusion that everyone in Goloka Vrindavan are of the same potency.

Do some nitya-siddhas in Goloka get labeled as "marginal jivas" while others are ananda-cinmaya-rasa ?

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport:

 

 

Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa.

 

 

tabe yāya tad-upari 'goloka-vṛndāvana'

'kṛṣṇa-caraṇa'-kalpa-vṛkṣe kare ārohaṇa

 

SYNONYMS

tabe — thereafter; yāya — goes; tat-upari — to the top of that (the spiritual sky); goloka-vṛndāvana — to the planet known as Goloka Vṛndāvana where Kṛṣṇa lives; kṛṣṇa-caraṇa — of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa; kalpa-vṛkṣe — on the desire tree; kare ārohaṇa — climbs.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"Being situated in one's heart and being watered by śravaṇa-kīrtana, the bhakti creeper grows more and more. In this way it attains the shelter of the desire tree of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, who is eternally situated in the planet known as Goloka Vṛndāvana, in the topmost region of the spiritual sky.

 

 

PURPORT

In the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.37) it is said:

 

 

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord. He resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hlādinī]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa." In the spiritual world, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, has expanded Himself by His spiritual potency. He has His eternal form of bliss and knowledge (sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]). Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Kṛṣṇa and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. In this way the Supreme Personality of Godhead is expanded throughout the spiritual world, and when that cinmaya-rasa potency expands through the material potency, it becomes all-pervading. The idea is that although the Supreme Personality of Godhead exists on His own planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He is also present everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. He is present within all the universes, although they are innumerable, and He is also present within the atom. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāḿ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: [Bg. 18.61] He is also present within the heart of all living entities. This is His all-pervasive potency.

Goloka Vṛndāvana is the highest planet in the spiritual world. In order to go to the spiritual world after penetrating the covering of the material universe, one must penetrate Brahma-loka, the spiritual effulgence. Then one can come to the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. There are also other planets in the spiritual world, called Vaikuṇṭha planets, and on these planets Lord Nārāyaṇa is worshiped with awe and veneration. On these planets śānta-rasa is prevalent, and some of the devotees are also connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in dāsya-rasa, the mellow of servitorship. As far as the mellow of fraternity is concerned, in Vaikuṇṭha this rasa is represented by gaurava-sakhya, friendship in awe and veneration. The other fraternity rasa, exhibited as viśrambha (friendship in equality), is found in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. Above that is service to the Lord in vātsalya-rasa (parental love), and above all is the relationship with the Lord in the mādhurya-rasa (conjugal love). These five rasas are fully exhibited in the spiritual world in one's relationship with the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world the bhakti creeper finds its resting place at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.

 

[Guruvani 0]

p.s

This is not a orgins debate or fall-from-goloka topic, so Vigraha or any of his other types are not welcome to turn this topic into a dreamervadi rant.

 

Keep it out of here!

[mahak 0]

When one gets all the plenary indulgences and attains heaven in the form of the groves of Talavana, everyone is gonna look at you and say "Who are you? Who let this nittya baddha in." It goes downhill from there.

 

Actually, the time ya spent here was not even a blink of the eye. The quiet part of a mrdanga riff.

 

mahak

[Guruvani 0]

 

When one gets all the plenary indulgences and attains heaven in the form of the groves of Talavana, everyone is gonna look at you and say "Who are you? Who let this nittya baddha in." It goes downhill from there.

 

Actually, the time ya spent here was not even a blink of the eye. The quiet part of a mrdanga riff.

 

 

 

I am not talking about going back, falling down or understanding the time factor.

I want to know if in Goloka there is class discrimination between different gradations of souls and if some are labeled as "marginal" and others are considered higher internal devotees.

 

What does Srila Prabhupada seem to be saying in the purport I referenced?

Doesn't he say that everyone is the SAME POTENCY?

 

If so, then where do we come up with this idea that there are marginal jivas in Goloka if in fact everyone in Goloka is of the SAME POTENCY?

 

 

Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa.

[realist 0]

 

 

[suchandra 1]

 

I am not talking about going back, falling down or understanding the time factor.

I want to know if in Goloka there is class discrimination between different gradations of souls and if some are labeled as "marginal" and others are considered higher internal devotees.

 

What does Srila Prabhupada seem to be saying in the purport I referenced?

Doesn't he say that everyone is the SAME POTENCY?

 

If so, then where do we come up with this idea that there are marginal jivas in Goloka if in fact everyone in Goloka is of the SAME POTENCY?

Nice description about the qualities of Krishna's spiritual kingdom by HH Devamrita Swami.

 

Meditating on Vaikuntha Lifestyle

 

by HH Devamrita Swami

 

I departed Russia after a weeklong festival on the Black Sea with 3000 devotees and after a few days of GBC meetings. By car I traveled three hours from Anapa to Krasnodar, and then by overnight train into Ukraine, arriving in Donetsk at 7 am. I know many who read this have no idea where these cities are. If you want to trace my travels, go to an atlas site on the Internet and look at the southwestern corner of Russia and the eastern side of Ukraine, above the Sea of Azov. My itinerary in Ukraine was Donetsk, then by car two hours to Luhansk plus nearby Alchevsk, and then back to Donetsk for flying to the capital city, Kiev.

 

In Luhansk I spoke about Lord Brahma’s description of life on the Vaikuntha planets (S. Bhag 3:15). The logic for your peacefully accepting this information is quite simple and clear: to understand a far-off place and its culture, you must consult an authority who knows. Just like above—most of you don’t know about those cities in Russia and Ukraine I mentioned. But if you consult your encyclopedia and atlas, then you will attain some understanding.

 

Relishing Lord Brahma’s guided tour of the spiritual world and Srila Prabhupada’s explication of it, I particularly let seven verses fascinate my mind.

 

In those Vaikuntha planets there are many forests which are very auspicious. In those forests the trees are desire trees, and in all seasons they are filled with flowers and fruits because everything in the Vaikuntha planets is spiritual and personal.

 

Where is the formlessness of which the impersonalists fantasize? In Vaikuntha everything is someone, and everyone has a form, personality, and devotional service. Even the impersonal Brahman is there—in a form. Material nature does not order the functions of nature in Vaikuntha; everyone functions in a direct relationship with the Lord. Therefore, for the Lord’s pleasure, the trees bear fruits and flowers year around. Indeed, the acarya’s explain that on the topmost Vaikuntha planet, Krishnaloka, when the cows eat the grass, then immediately the grass grows back even more lushly. And when Krishna, also named Madhava, enters the forest, then the already inconceivably beautiful forest redoubles its springtime attractiveness, especially since the spring season is also known as Madhava.

 

In the Vaikuntha planets the inhabitants fly in their airplanes, accompanied by their wives and consorts, and eternally sing of the character and activities of the Lord, which are always devoid of all inauspicious qualities. While singing the glories of the Lord, they deride even the presence of the blossoming madhavi flowers, which are fragrant and laden with honey.

 

The breezes in Vaikuntha are overwhelmingly fragrant, yet the inhabitants there choose to ignore the naturally perfumed air so they can concentrate their attention on the Lord’s service. In this way they show their pure devotional status. Those who always grant first priority to the Lord’s pleasure have the right to reside in Vaikuntha. Selfish sense gratification fades away in the presence of an opportunity to glorify the Lord. In Vaikuntha that opportunity is eternally ever-increasingly present. While they Vaikuntha devotees chant the Lord’s glories, they don’t want the intoxicatingly sweet breezes disturbing their focus.

 

When the king of bees hums in a high pitch, singing the glories of the Lord, there is a temporary lull in the noise of the pigeon, the cuckoo, the crane, the cakravaka, the swan, the parrot, the partridge and the peacock. Such transcendental birds stop their own singing simply to hear the glories of the Lord.

 

Note the inherent smooth-flowing cooperation among the Vaikuntha residents. Whether bird, bee, peacock, or a humanlike resident, all are devotees conscious of how the Lord will best enjoy. Unlike beginners in spiritual life who fight over who can perform a particular service for the Lord and the guru, the Vaikuntha-ites immediately, intuitively know how to coordinate their various devotional efforts. Therefore when the bees hum the Lord’s glories, the birds and peacocks defer.

 

Although flowering plants like the mandara, kunda, kurabaka, utpala, campaka, arna, punnaga, nagakesara, bakula, lily and parijata are full of transcendental fragrance, they are still conscious of the austerities performed by tulasi, for tulasi is given special preference by the Lord, who garlands Himself with tulasi leaves.

 

Welcome to a world free from envy. What a relief! Indeed, envy--the most dangerous terrorist attack--is the defining principle of material existence. First we envy the Lord, and then our envy fans out to everyone else too. In maya’s kingdom, the sociological basis is “Let me enjoy, while you suffer.” We become miserable when someone outshines us, and even plot to minimize that person. In Vaikuntha, however, envy is astonishingly absent. Every devotee, no matter what form and service, joyfully exalts the merit of other devotees. Therefore, the flowers of Vaikuntha, though divinely fragrant, recognize the special stature of tulasi, the Lord’s favourite.

 

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha travel in their airplanes made of lapis lazuli, emerald and gold. Although crowded by their consorts, who have large hips and beautiful smiling faces, they cannot be stimulated to passion by their mirth and beautiful charms.

 

“Impossible! Something better than sex? I can’t believe it!” Materialists know of no higher thrill. Just for the sake of that itching sensation, they will slave night and day—even fight the whole world. Self-imprisoned by their own bodily conception of life, they see no question more relevant for long-range planning than, “Is there sex after death?” Such lifelong miserly indulgers should merrily note that material nature will certainly again grant them their licentious outlet, birth after birth—but probably not in a human body. In Vaikuntha, however, there is no sex. Prabhupada explains that although the couples do enjoy each other’s company, they are so absorbed in bhakti-yoga that the beautiful spiritual bodies of the opposite gender cannot captivate their attention. Because the spiritual atmosphere is surcharged with Krishna consciousness, so-called sex pleasure has no standing.

 

The ladies in the Vaikuntha planets are as beautiful as the goddess of fortune herself. Such transcendentally beautiful ladies, their hands playing with lotuses and their leg bangles tinkling, are sometimes seen sweeping the marble walls, which are bedecked at intervals with golden borders, in order to receive the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Why sweep and dust the palaces in Vaikuntha? No dirt exists there. Yet the eagerness to attract the mercy of the Lord abounds; for that reason only, the Vaikuntha ladies lovingly clean the marble walls of the palaces. At the top of the spiritual world, in Goloka Vrindavan, Mother Yasoda thinks that because her son Krishna has been playing all day, His body, decorated with the dust of Vraj, needs a bath. Moreover, after such energetic sporting with his fellow gopas, she thinks He surely must be famished. Of course, no material dirt or fatigue exists in Vaikuntha. Yet, out of maternal love, Yasoda-mayi is eager to care for Krishna, and Lord Krishna even surrenders to her maternal protection.

 

Always compassionate, Lord Brahma, the head of our succession of discipleship, expresses profound dismay at the self-created problems of those imagining they have higher priorities in life than hearing about the spiritual world.

 

It is very much regrettable that unfortunate people do not discuss the description of the Vaikuntha planets but engage in topics which are unworthy to hear and which bewilder one's intelligence. Those who give up the topics of Vaikuntha and take to talk of the material world are thrown into the darkest region of ignorance.

 

Brahma’s compassion descends through the chain of masters and students down to us. Consequently, rather than remaining aloof from the problems of the tiny speck known as Earth, the devotees work hard to spread awareness of the unlimited spiritual world. Let us always cherish that responsibility, and discharge it as best we can, according to our ashram capacity.

 

What is an obvious, telltale symptom of the material disease plaguing the world? The crazed denizens of this globe love to expend their short lifespans in talking about everything except what they should discuss.

 

Economics, yes!

 

Politics, yes!

 

Sports, yes!

 

Sex and the City, yes!

 

The spiritual world, Vaikuntha?

 

Don’t bother us with such antiquated religious mythology . . . !

 

Be practical--we have no time!

 

In Ukraine, on October 9, devotes drove me the short distance from Luhansk to Alchevsk. Although only a small city of about 100,000, Alchevsk has a nice, small ISKCON temple. Sixty devotees had gathered there to embarrass me . . . they had found out the date of my Vyasa Puja. Later you will find out the significance of my telling you all the details of this visit to Alchevsk.

 

Forming lines from the car on the street around to the back of the building and inside, chanting and dancing in kirtan, they showered flowers upon my lowly self. The temple room was festively decorated with balloons, flowers, and a big banner hanging from the ceiling saying “We love you, Maharaja.” They did guru-puja, I spoke, we had kirtan, and then they all came forward with gifts. As each one presented a gift, I reciprocated with prasada, in the form of fruit. Please note that the average salary in Ukraine is the equivalent of only one-hundred US dollars per month. I will never forget seeing all these devotees give donations equaling five, ten, and even twenty US dollars. My heart was profoundly imprinted.

 

Next, a huge cake was placed in front of me, with my name written on it. For the next half-hour I distributed big chunks of this delicious cake to all the devotees, as they exuberantly crowded around the vyasasana. Then they staged a three-act play, accompanied by song and dance. A written translation of the script was placed in my hand so I could follow the plot.

 

After a kirtan, I departed—awed by the Ukraine ISKCON bhakti. And now for the shocking fact: of the sixty joyous devotees who staged such a tearfully ecstatic celebration in that small city . . . only one . . . was my initiated disciple . . . ! Just see the depths of spiritual wealth and Vaisnava mutual love possible in Srila Prabhupada’s movement!

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[theist 1]

 

I am not talking about going back, falling down or understanding the time factor.

 

Sorry but if you think the other residents of Goloka are going to be looking at someone as a newcomer and an outsider then your question is infected with the concept of past. "This baddha-jiva was not here a minute ago and now he is here."

 

You rightly object to the idea of souls falling asleep in Goloka and/or disappearing altogether (as have heard some people claim). but yet you are then stuck with the exact same problem in nature with the idea of a new soul arriving and raising the conception of class distinction. Your problem is on the back end and others have their problem at the front end.

 

This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sorry but if you think the other residents of Goloka are going to be looking at someone as a newcomer and an outsider then your question is infected with the concept of past.

 

I didn't say anything about newcomer, oldtimer, nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha etc. etc.

I just want to know if in Goloka there is this classification of devotees into classes of souls as marginal or internal devotees.

 

It seems to me if there is a class distinction between souls then that would be a form of prejudice and discrimination in Goloka.

[Beggar 0]

 

It seems to me if there is a class distinction between souls then that would be a form of prejudice and discrimination in Goloka.

Once upon a time, beyond time, the legislative body of Goloka passed a Civil Rights Act of Goloka making illegal to discriminate against those who were once baddha jivas. NOT!!! Sridhar Maharaja calls that plane "the land of love". We cannot approach there with the mentality, "no taxation without representation". He has also said, "The very nature of advancement is that I low, I am undone, I am the most helpless". So the nature of the superior souls in Goloka is that they are more humble and of a self sacrificing nature than we. We will say that Srila Prabhupada is more advanced and humble than ourselves but we can't afford the same honor to those who reside in the cinmaya region or the "land of gurus"?

Every detail about the spiritual world cannot be grasped with our intellect.

 

The Ecstasy Potency of the Divine

by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

 

We must have the selflessness to admit that He is all-in-all: “Even my existence can be effaced by His sweet will. Although we are told that the soul is eternal, still, He is the Absolute who can efface me.” We are krta-das – slave; the master can make or marr us. Marobi rakhobi yo ichha tohara – You can keep me, You can do away with me; this is Your constitutional right. I am quite dependent. You can make or marr my fortune, anything you like.

As much as you’ll be able to realize your position of helplessness, so much you are enriching yourself from the real standpoint. You are acquiring a position there. Just the opposite from here – no vanity is allowed there. All humility – humility has got value there. Constitutionally we are in the negative, not in the positive. We have no right, but all right is in His sweet will alone. That is Prema, Love; His grace. Our existence depends on that aspect of reality.

 

Sakti – the female aspect has its particular importance, and not that it will go to imitate the right of the male. That would be her failure. So, there is the ‘predominating’, and the ‘predominated’. If we want to assert our predominating self, then we have to come into connection with Maya, the illusory energy; there we are purusa. But if we want to uphold that tatastha or marginal nature of our own, then we are not purusa; we are of female type, dependent type, or sakti (energy).

 

In consideration with Him, we are sakti and in consideration with maya, we are saktiman, purusa, exploiter, enjoyer. If we seek our relationship with the upper existence, we have to be enjoyed or handled. On that side, subjective existence is there; and here, we come to exploit, to assert; and in connection with maya we can do that. And we are suffering from the reaction. Here in the illusory world, we can assert, ‘We are purusa, we are enjoyer.’ But this is false and reactionary.

 

So try to develop the attitude of your potency characteristic. If you will be able to do that, you’ll have value on the higher realm. By submission – pranipata, pariprasna, seva – you may be allowed to enter into that domain, otherwise not. You have to be utilized by them, by the interest of the higher land. Only then are you allowed entrance. No exploitation for the jiva-soul is possible in that land. The country of Paramatma, the Soul of all souls.

 

[Ashvatama 0]

 

Sorry but if you think the other residents of Goloka are going to be looking at someone as a newcomer and an outsider then your question is infected with the concept of past. "This baddha-jiva was not here a minute ago and now he is here."

 

You rightly object to the idea of souls falling asleep in Goloka and/or disappearing altogether (as have heard some people claim). but yet you are then stuck with the exact same problem in nature with the idea of a new soul arriving and raising the conception of class distinction. Your problem is on the back end and others have their problem at the front end.

 

This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future.

 

Mathematically then if there is no past, present or future as we are acquainted with it, can we take for granted we are likely already in Goloka, is that your aphorism?

[suchandra 1]

 

I didn't say anything about newcomer, oldtimer, nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha etc. etc.

I just want to know if in Goloka there is this classification of devotees into classes of souls as marginal or internal devotees.

 

It seems to me if there is a class distinction between souls then that would be a form of prejudice and discrimination in Goloka.

Looks like in Goloka there's no such thing as classification of devotees into classes of souls as marginal or internal devotees as these kind of materialistic classification is not mentioned by Vaishnava acaryas. A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord as they were imparted millions of years ago to the sun-god, from whom the instructions of Bhagavad-gītā have come down to the earthly kingdom. One should, therefore, follow the path of Bhagavad-gītā as it is expressed in the Gītā itself and beware of self-interested people after personal aggrandizement who deviate others from the actual path. The Lord is definitely the Supreme Person, and His activities are transcendental.

 

 

One who understands this is a liberated person from the very beginning of his study of Bhagavad-gītā.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

I didn't say anything about newcomer, oldtimer, nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha etc. etc.

I just want to know if in Goloka there is this classification of devotees into classes of souls as marginal or internal devotees.

 

It seems to me if there is a class distinction between souls then that would be a form of prejudice and discrimination in Goloka.

 

1 -Internal or Superior energy is Krishna and the Vishnu-tattva's in Goloka and Vaikuntha

 

2 -Marginal is the jiva-tattva's

 

3 -External or inferior energy is the material creation or the mahat-tattva

 

What do you mean by internal devotees? Are they marginal (jiva-tattva's)?

[Beggar 0]

 

What do you mean by internal devotees? Are they marginal (jiva-tattva's)?

Mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaja, Sridhama, Sudama, Madhumangal, Lalita, Tungavidya etc. are certainly not "mere jivas" (as one poster referred to them). It has been posted that they are "as good as Krsna".

 

 

“The personal associates of Radharani, the gopi damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. These expansions of Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krishna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes of Vrindavana. By the expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krishna taste the rasa-dance and similar other activities.” (Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.81 purport)

 

 

“All the other gopis help increase the joy of Krishna’s pastimes with Radharani. The gopis act as instruments of Their mutual enjoyment.” (Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.217)

Of course the next question is obviously, "what about the former conditioned souls or badha jivas who enter into Krsna's pastimes"? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that such souls must become inbued with cit-shakti to enter there. Perhaps this is a catch-phrase for the combination of hladini and samvit saktis as stated in other sastras. In another post it has been described how the hladini and samvit saktis come down by the grace of Sri Guru from the ragatmika devotees (eternal associates) in Goloka into the heart of raganuga bhakta. Sometimes the perfected souls are referred to as jivas and sometimes not. At the same time we must remember from our vantage point that love is always based on free choice. How all this all ties together cannot really be understood by our material intellect, so sincere chanting, hearing and serving under divine guidance is our only hope.

 

 

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

1 -Internal or Superior energy is Krishna and the Vishnu-tattva's in Goloka and Vaikuntha

 

2 -Marginal is the jiva-tattva's

 

3 -External or inferior energy is the material creation or the mahat-tattva

 

What do you mean by internal devotees? Are they marginal (jiva-tattva's)?

Your number 1 is certainly a mistaken idea.

Krishna or Vishnu are not "energy".

They are energetic - shaktiman.

Energy is the shakti.

The source and master of the energy is the shaktiman.

 

Krishna is not energy.

Krishna is the source and basis of energy.

 

As far as classifying any form of bhakta-tattva in Goloka as a marginal jiva, I don't think shastra supports that idea.

 

We might hear some indirect statements about that in the preaching work of Srila Prabhupada, but, as far as shastra actually classifying the bhakta-tattva jivas of Goloka as "marginal", I don't think that can be established on the basis of shastra.

 

To refer to Krishna as "energy" shows a very defective understanding of Vaishnava siddhanta.

That is like refering to a nuclear power plant as electricity.

[Guruvani 0]

 

1 -Internal or Superior energy is Krishna and the Vishnu-tattva's in Goloka and Vaikuntha

 

 

You are mixing up two different concepts.

Internal energy and superior energy are two different terms for two different levels of energy.

 

The "superior" energy is the living entity.

He is superior to matter.

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.5

 

apareyam itas tv anyāḿ

prakṛtiḿ viddhi me parām

jīva-bhūtāḿ mahā-bāho

yayedaḿ dhāryate jagat

 

SYNONYMS

aparā — inferior; iyam — this; itaḥ — besides this; tu — but; anyām — another; prakṛtim — energy; viddhi — just try to understand; me — My; parām — superior; jīva-bhūtām — comprising the living entities; mahā-bāho — O mighty-armed one; yayā — by whom; idam — this; dhāryate — is utilized or exploited; jagat — the material world.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

 

 

PURPORT

Here it is clearly mentioned that living entities belong to the superior nature (or energy) of the Supreme Lord. The inferior energy is matter manifested in different elements, namely earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego. Both forms of material nature, namely gross (earth, etc.) and subtle (mind, etc.), are products of the inferior energy. The living entities, who are exploiting these inferior energies for different purposes, are the superior energy of the Supreme Lord, and it is due to this energy that the entire material world functions. The cosmic manifestation has no power to act unless it is moved by the superior energy, the living entity. Energies are always controlled by the energetic, and therefore the living entities are always controlled by the Lord — they have no independent existence. They are never equally powerful, as unintelligent men think. The distinction between the living entities and the Lord is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.87.30) as follows:

 

 

aparimitā dhruvās tanu-bhṛto yadi sarva-gatās

tarhi na śāsyateti niyamo dhruva netarathā

ajani ca yan-mayaḿ tad avimucya niyantṛ bhavet

samam anujānatāḿ yad amataḿ mata-duṣṭatayā

 

"O Supreme Eternal! If the embodied living entities were eternal and all-pervading like You, then they would not be under Your control. But if the living entities are accepted as minute energies of Your Lordship, then they are at once subject to Your supreme control. Therefore real liberation entails surrender by the living entities to Your control, and that surrender will make them happy. In that constitutional position only can they be controllers. Therefore, men with limited knowledge who advocate the monistic theory that God and the living entities are equal in all respects are actually guided by a faulty and polluted opinion."

The Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa, is the only controller, and all living entities are controlled by Him. These living entities are His superior energy because the quality of their existence is one and the same with the Supreme, but they are never equal to the Lord in quantity of power. While exploiting the gross and subtle inferior energy (matter), the superior energy (the living entity) forgets his real spiritual mind and intelligence. This forgetfulness is due to the influence of matter upon the living entity. But when the living entity becomes free from the influence of the illusory material energy, he attains the stage called mukti, or liberation. The false ego, under the influence of material illusion, thinks, "I am matter, and material acquisitions are mine." His actual position is realized when he is liberated from all material ideas, including the conception of his becoming one in all respects with God. Therefore one may conclude that the Gītā confirms the living entity to be only one of the multi-energies of Kṛṣṇa; and when this energy is freed from material contamination, it becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, or liberated.

 

The internal energy?

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.101

 

cic-chakti, svarūpa-śakti, antarańgā nāma

tāhāra vaibhava ananta vaikuṇṭhādi dhāma

 

SYNONYMS

cit-śakti — spiritual energy; svarūpa-śakti — personal energy; antaḥ-ańgā — internal; nāma — named; tāhāra — of that; vaibhava — manifestations; ananta — unlimited; vaikuṇṭha-ādi — Vaikuṇṭha, etc.; dhāma — abodes.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The cit-śakti, which is also called svarūpa-śakti or antarańga-śakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia.

 

 

Internal energy means antaranga-shakti.

Internal energy is the chit-shakti which is also called svarupa-shakti.

 

Krishna is not internal energy as Vigraha has said.

Krishna is the master of the internal energy.

Krishna is not energy.

Krishna is the energetic powerhouse.

[theist 1]

 

Mathematically then if there is no past, present or future as we are acquainted with it, can we take for granted we are likely already in Goloka, is that your aphorism?

Well trying to respect Guruvani's desire to make this as free as possible of the 'fall from' arguments which have dominated this board for months I can certainly understand how that could be. That is one side of the argument and it is not possible to defeat it philosophically. On the other hand IMO there is no way one can establish it philosophically either. The reason being one could be a pencilpoint of brahmajyoti and still cast his consciousness into the dreamland of matter.

 

Or one could even have been amalgomated in the Brahman with no individual sense of identity and desiring again personal life cast his consciousness back into the three modes.

 

So dreaming is there no matter what the origin of the soul is. The point is it is ONLY by the medium of projecting the conciousness into the field of temporay forms (dreaming) that the soul has any contact with matter from any position.

 

But the question of class distinction being in the spiritual sky seems so odd to me especially in a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna.

[mahak 0]

thin line there. once on makes the mistake of making false gods out of the servantrs of the Supreme, then it is the void of where only God exists, nothing more.

 

If Sudama and Subal, who are actually better than Krsna when they defeat him at their forest games, and misunderstood to be in an unattainable catagory, the science is over. I mean, what good is being all attractive if nothing can really be attracted, to rasa, raganuga, madurya rasa, et all. Just a show. Is fully krsna conscious a ticket to go watch a movie?

 

hari

 

 

bol

 

 

mahak sad as a ..........

 

come back, realist, sad lone wolf.

[suchandra 1]

 

.............especially in a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna.

 

Below it says that all devotees are very fortunate.

 

 

Śri Vidagdha-Madhava (3a)

by Srila Rupa Gosvami

 

“Why speak so many words? Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Please hear ! Last night Lord Siva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who had come in the role of a devotee, spoke in a dream and said: "O Rupa Gosvami, O expert writer of plays, this delightful place is near Kesi-tirtha, on the slope of Govardhana hill. This grove, on the bank of the Yamuna river, is very pleasant and full of many fragrant beautiful flowers.

 

 

At this moment, eager to see the forest of Vrindavana, the advanced devotees, expert at relishing the mellows of devotional service, have come here, devotees whose hearts are full of love for Nanda's son, who is the crown jewel of all youths, and who is decorated with many new lotus flowers, playful like a maddened cuckoo, the first teacher of perfect flute players, and an ocean where the sharks of the gopis' hearts play. The devotees here are all very fortunate."

[Guruvani 0]

 

Mathematically then if there is no past, present or future as we are acquainted with it, can we take for granted we are likely already in Goloka, is that your aphorism?

 

If that is so, then why did Mahaprabhu teach Sanatan Goswami that before a devotee can attain Goloka he must first take birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested in his Vraja lila where the devotee is born from the womb of a gopi and grows through a natural sequence just like in the material world?

 

Actually, there is no such thing as just popping-up in Goloka and transcending time altogether.

First, in the realm of time, the devotee takes birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are manifesting.

Then, after the pastimes of Krishna are concluded the devotee is elevated to Goloka at the end of his life.

So, it is not just as simple as popping-up in Goloka and realizing that you were never gone.

First, one must take birth in Krishna's earthly pastimes and then from there he can go back to Goloka and transcend the conception of material time.

 

First, one connects with Krishna within the realm of TIME.

Then, from there he eventually attains to the realm beyond time.

 

In Goloka one resumes the service that he perfected in the Gokula Vraja earthly pastimes of Krishna.

You just don't pop-up in Goloka without a prior sequence of developing the relationship with Krishna in the material realm of time.

[mahak 0]

well, there ya have it. the apprenticeship is gokula, then goloka.

 

But some conclude that gokula is more fun than goloka, so does this make the newcomer in a better position? If it does, watch out when gokula wraps it up and hits the road.

 

I heard that some never leave the gokuladhama, that they stay travelling.

 

But a question arises. We hear of why Mother Yasoda is who she is, how she was once another, and now is with Sri Gokulanandana. In Gokula, in the Krsna Book.

 

Is there a mother yasoda in goloka, one who was never another,who did all that great service to become mother yasoda of gokula.

 

Or does this query drop us back into the twilight zone of where is that line between the jiva and the artificial krsna-tattwas invented by a growing many?

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist 1]

 

If that is so, then why did Mahaprabhu teach Sanatan Goswami that before a devotee can attain Goloka he must first take birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested in his Vraja lila where the devotee is born from the womb of a gopi and grows through a natural sequence just like in the material world?

 

Actually, there is no such thing as just popping-up in Goloka and transcending time altogether.

First, in the realm of time, the devotee takes birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are manifesting.

Then, after the pastimes of Krishna are concluded the devotee is elevated to Goloka at the end of his life.

So, it is not just as simple as popping-up in Goloka and realizing that you were never gone.

First, one must take birth in Krishna's earthly pastimes and then from there he can go back to Goloka and transcend the conception of material time.

 

First, one connects with Krishna within the realm of TIME.

Then, from there he eventually attains to the realm beyond time.

 

In Goloka one resumes the service that he perfected in the Gokula Vraja earthly pastimes of Krishna.

You just don't pop-up in Goloka without a prior sequence of developing the relationship with Krishna in the material realm of time.

This is what the acaryas teach but although true it proves nothing except one must regain (or gain?) that experience before going (back?) to Goloka.

 

I still maintain this puzzle cannot be solved philosophically and that we must take Bahtivinodes advice and realize it rather than bat it about between those with opposing opinions.

 

I also still admit I don't know the answer. Then why don't I stay out of it altogether? Because this is a divisive topic that has become a wall between aspiring devotees of Mahaprabhu and I think such walls are tragic.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

I still maintain this puzzle cannot be solved philosophically and that we must take Bhaktivinodes advice and realize it rather than bat it about between those with opposing opinions.

 

I don't think I agree.

These are topics and conclusions that are dealt with in shastra.

Anybody can read the books and understand.

You don't have to realize these things as much as you just have to internalize them and accept what the shastra and the acharyas have said.

 

If we refer back to pre-ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavism then many of the issues and questions can be resolved because no acharya or guru has the right to change or alter the siddhanta and the conclusions of Mahaprabhu's direct disciples and the great Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

It appears that in bringing Gaudiya Vaishnavism to western people there has been some confusion and indeed Srila Prabhupada himself said he was perplexed about how exactly to push forward the movement in the western world.

 

Maybe he was a little over-protective and reserved about just blasting westerners with the deepest aspects of Gaudiya siddhanta.

As such, his words were sometimes a little ambiguous and allowing some western people to misunderstand some things.

 

I for one certainly do not accept literally everything Srila Prabhupada said.

Other than literal meanings, I think his teachings were sometimes allegorical as are some of the stories and fables in the Bhagavatam.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

thin line there. once on makes the mistake of making false gods out of the servantrs of the Supreme, then it is the void of where only God exists, nothing more.

 

If Sudama and Subal, who are actually better than Krsna when they defeat him at their forest games, and misunderstood to be in an unattainable catagory, the science is over. I mean, what good is being all attractive if nothing can really be attracted, to rasa, raganuga, madurya rasa, et all. Just a show. Is fully krsna conscious a ticket to go watch a movie?

 

There is a hierarchy amongst Krsnas servitor's in Gokula and Goloka. For those in sakhya rasa, Sudama and Subal are essentially gurus or captains of that rasa with it's serving group. They are always in a superior position. In the madhurya rasa, the leaders of Srimati Radharani's group are Lalita and Visaka. There are other gopis that assist them who are in the same mood of Radha dasyam. The zenith of attainment in our line is that of the manjaris, the little girls who serve the gopis and Radha Krsna in the kunjas of Vrndavana and greater Vraja. It is the telescopic approach; the apparently farther removed the closer on gets in reality. This is how it is recomended that we approach the Vaikunthas or the Land of Gurus. When expaining this Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, "Who are we? High talks, mad talks, Nitai Gaura Hari bol!" (Beggar using my wife's Screen Name - Didn't notice that she was signed on)

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaja, Sridhama, Sudama, Madhumangal, Lalita, Tungavidya etc. are certainly not "mere jivas" (as one poster referred to them). It has been posted that they are "as good as Krsna".

 

 

 

Of course the next question is obviously, "what about the former conditioned souls or badha jivas who enter into Krsna's pastimes"? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that such souls must become inbued with cit-shakti to enter there.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this is a catch-phrase for the combination of hladini and samvit saktis as stated in other sastras. In another post it has been described how the hladini and samvit saktis come down by the grace of Sri Guru from the ragatmika devotees (eternal associates) in Goloka into the heart of raganuga bhakta.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes the perfected souls are referred to as jivas and sometimes not. At the same time we must remember from our vantage point that love is always based on free choice. How all this all ties together cannot really be understood by our material intellect, so sincere chanting, hearing and serving under divine guidance is our only hope.

 

 

 

1- The residents of Goloka are as good as Krishna because of their Krishna consciousness but they are sill jiva-tattva although their are so many Vishnu tattva's playing different roles as well as the Caitanya Caritamrita reveals, it is explained there that so many expansions of Krishna Himself play out different roles for example only Sri vas (Naradha Muni) is jiva-tattva, the rest in the Pancha-Tattva are Vishnu-tattva and their are many many more also that are Vishnu tattva

2 - Yes you are right that the marginal living entities are part of the superior energy in ‘bodily nitya-siddha form’ however, because they are jiva-tattva they serve as individual devotees and are not on the same level as Krishna who is the embodiment of the internal potency. Our disagreement on this issue is with the use of words only.

3 -The nitya-baddha’s jivs are also part of the marginal energy (a characteristic of the superior energy (life force) yet become covered and slave to the inferior energy or material creation

[theist 1]

 

I don't think I agree.

These are topics and conclusions that are dealt with in shastra.

Anybody can read the books and understand.

You don't have to realize these things as much as you just have to internalize them and accept what the shastra and the acharyas have said.

Yes we disagree on this. I am not well read in the scriptures but then they also have been translated by someone who may have an opinion one way or another into English before I can even have peek.

 

On this issue especially which necessitates an experience of the eternal nature free from past and future conceptions to grasp I will wait for the relization. I see no other way.

 

 

If we refer back to pre-ISKCON Gaudiya Vaishnavism then many of the issues and questions can be resolved because no acharya or guru has the right to change or alter the siddhanta and the conclusions of Mahaprabhu's direct disciples and the great Goswamis of Vrindavan.

Same problem of translation and beyond that even if you speak sanskrit or bengali people see different things when looking at the same verses sometimes. That is controlled by Supersoul's direction. Look at the Gita for example. Some see Krsna as personal some see only the Brahman.

 

And beyond that there is the idea of increasin revelation. I see the sampradaya as a dynamic living thing. Look at the conception of conjugal love. This wasn't always accepted and many if most still don't. So just looking to the past is not enough.

 

 

It appears that in bringing Gaudiya Vaishnavism to western people there has been some confusion and indeed Srila Prabhupada himself said he was perplexed about how exactly to push forward the movement in the western world.

I think you are reading too much into that statement of perplexity. He was always very straightforward although certainly his audience also dictated how much he could reveal.

 

Afterall he came to America teaching that God is a little bluishblack cowherd boy who steals butter and feeds it to monkey's. I mean if what is the origin debate compared to that.

 

My opinon is the Crow and Tal fruit letter explains Prabhupada's positon on the topic completely and he ends it by placing the importance of the question in it's proper perspective as not worth squabbling over. I mean he did make many clear statements on the issue. There are also statements that appear to contradict each other.

 

Or take Spiritual Sky incense for example. I read a letter from Prabhupada back to someone in India remarking how he intended the incense business to just be something to bring in a little extra laxsmi but his disciples had ran with it and turned it into a big business.That means the mode of passion was dominant and a guru has to work with his disciples in accordance to their particular mix of the three gunas.

 

 

Maybe he was a little over-protective and reserved about just blasting westerners with the deepest aspects of Gaudiya siddhanta.

As such, his words were sometimes a little ambiguous and allowing some western people to misunderstand some things.

Yes as I said above I agree with you here. But not everything falls into category and the tendancy to place things there according to if they fit our personal beliefs is always there and is dangerous.

 

It is also improper to just make statements as to the internal motive of Srila Prabhupada in such a way that makes it seem he really thinks as we do even when he says the opposite. That is a very bad precedent for a formally initiated disicple to display on a world wide forum. I am sorry for being blunt but I had to say something.

 

 

I for one certainly do not accept literally everything Srila Prabhupada said.

Other than literal meanings, I think his teachings were sometimes allegorical as are some of the stories and fables in the Bhagavatam.

I feel the same way but cannot say with certainty which are literal and which allegorical. Some are obvious but many are not. I believe the answers will be given by Supersoul as we advance and there is no need to over-emphasize which is which as it disturbs many minds.

 

I still consider your past post on paroksa (sp?) a classic and have saved it to file. I may not agree to include the last few sentences however, but I certainly agree with the central idea.

 

Sorry to have sidetracked your thread.