Disability and Divinity

[Redsox]

Not saying that I have a disability.

 

But, lets say a person has a disability, it does not have to be physical or mental disability. It could just be something that he cannot do as easily as other people.

Lets say you are not as smart as the next guy. You try and try but you fail at something but the next guy does it in a second. He is inherently more capable than you at the same task that you both have to do. Why do we have this distinction?

 

Lets establish that it is a karmic output, then why doesn't the disabled man lose his disability once he surrenders to God? Your past karma leaves when you surrender, yes?

[cbrahma]

I've experienced worse karma when following a process of chanting and devotion. Some devotees use the fan metaphor. The electricity is turned off and the fan continues...but slows down..my fan sped up.

 

 

Not saying that I have a disability.

 

But, lets say a person has a disability, it does not have to be physical or mental disability. It could just be something that he cannot do as easily as other people.

Lets say you are not as smart as the next guy. You try and try but you fail at something but the next guy does it in a second. He is inherently more capable than you at the same task that you both have to do. Why do we have this distinction?

 

Lets establish that it is a karmic output, then why doesn't the disabled man lose his disability once he surrenders to God? Your past karma leaves when you surrender, yes?

[Redsox]

Lets go with the fan analogy, if it is turned off, then it should slow down. So if the disabled person surrenders, he should slowly get his ability back, but he doesn't . Or does he?

[theist]

 

Not saying that I have a disability.

 

But, lets say a person has a disability, it does not have to be physical or mental disability. ....

 

Lets establish that it is a karmic output, then why doesn't the disabled man lose his disability once he surrenders to God? Your past karma leaves when you surrender, yes?

 

The disability doesn't leave the devotee, the devotee leaves the disability. He does this by identifying himself as he is, the eternal spiritual self, and he reclaims his eternal function as the Lord's loving servant.

 

It is like something like a prisioner in a caged jail cell. When he is released from the jail cell he no longer thinks of himself as a prisoner limited by the size and condition of his prision.

[Guest guest]

 

Lets go with the fan analogy, if it is turned off, then it should slow down. So if the disabled person surrenders, he should slowly get his ability back, but he doesn't . Or does he?

 

Every jiva has a certain yogyata, and he can never go beyond it. Karma alone isn't a factor. Every jiva has an inherent capacity that can never be changed. Instead of trying to improve (which is impossible anyway), just try to please the Lord in tune with your yogyata. Simple, eh?

[Redsox]

 

The disability doesn't leave the devotee, the devotee leaves the disability. He does this by identifying himself as he is, the eternal spiritual self, and he reclaims his eternal function as the Lord's loving servant.

 

It is like something like a prisioner in a caged jail cell. When he is released from the jail cell he no longer thinks of himself as a prisoner limited by the size and condition of his prision.

 

I agree. but I am not sure about what you are saying. Maybe our definitions of surrender are different. I say "I surrender to Krishna" , and think i am surrendered. Are you saying surrender can only happen in death? when we leave the "prison" so to speak?

[theist]

 

I agree. but I am not sure about what you are saying. Maybe our definitions of surrender are different. I say "I surrender to Krishna" , and think i am surrendered. Are you saying surrender can only happen in death? when we leave the "prison" so to speak?

 

The surrender has to real and just based on our thoughts of what surrender is.

Yes and no. The death I am speaking of is the death of the falso ego and not the body. The ability or disability of the material body is of no consequence. All material bodies are disabled when compared to the self.

 

Everyone is blind that cannot see God.

Everyone is deaf if he can't perceive God in the sound of His name.

Everyone is dumb if he cannot speak the truth about God.

[mahak]

I cant surf, my right arm goes dead in the water. Lord Brahma is disabled. He cannot be detached like Lord Siva. Srila Prabhupada is disabled, he calls himself old man. Srimati Draupadi is disabled, she is in exile.

 

But these disabilities have nothing to do with spiritual function and real usefulness.

 

"Disability" is a false word, and should only be used to extract funding and favor from government agencies.

 

Im insane (and so am I), maybe this is a disability. Im not Canadian, this is a disability. I dont fly, I live in an area only accessible by bridges, and I dont cross bridges, this is a disability. But, I can time travel to thompkins square in 1966 or the haight in 67, easy. Maybe this is also a disability.

 

mahaksadasa

[Redsox]

 

Every jiva has a certain yogyata, and he can never go beyond it. Karma alone isn't a factor. Every jiva has an inherent capacity that can never be changed. Instead of trying to improve (which is impossible anyway), just try to please the Lord in tune with your yogyata. Simple, eh?

 

I see now that I was not being straightforward,

My service to the lord needs some capability at a mental level, yet i am not able to accomplish that easily, while some one else has the same capability and he does it easily. What else? - I dont even think he does it for Krishna as I do. My question is why is there this distinction? I am not jealous , I was hoping when I surrender my job to Krishna, it will get easier, but it didn't.

[Redsox]

 

I cant surf, my right arm goes dead in the water. Lord Brahma is disabled. He cannot be detached like Lord Siva. Srila Prabhupada is disabled, he calls himself old man. Srimati Draupadi is disabled, she is in exile.

 

But these disabilities have nothing to do with spiritual function and real usefulness.

 

"Disability" is a false word, and should only be used to extract funding and favor from government agencies.

 

Im insane (and so am I), maybe this is a disability. Im not Canadian, this is a disability. I dont fly, I live in an area only accessible by bridges, and I dont cross bridges, this is a disability. But, I can time travel to thompkins square in 1966 or the haight in 67, easy. Maybe this is also a disability.

 

mahaksadasa

 

we have disabilities ok. sometimes it does not have anything to do with krishna's service, but sometimes it does yes? - for example a poor man cannot construct a temple like a rich man can do. Or a person who has no functioning legs cannot dance to hare krishna maha mantra. A man who has no voice cannot sing mass in church. All these are hinderings to his service.

[theist]

 

we have disabilities ok. sometimes it does not have anything to do with krishna's service, but sometimes it does yes? - for example a poor man cannot construct a temple like a rich man can do. Or a person who has no functioning legs cannot dance to hare krishna maha mantra. A man who has no voice cannot sing mass in church. All these are hinderings to his service.

 

But it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God but with God all things are possible. He has more attachments to renounce plus the added prestige society places upon him over the poor man.

 

The poor man may be looked down upon society and thus it is easier for him to renounce society. It is also easier for the poor man to develop humilty which when turn towards God opens the door of the heart to receive the mercy of Krsna.

 

I pity the rich in society more than I do the poor. I see them as the disadvantaged ones in ways that really matter.

[Guest guest]

Or put another way, who surrenders when they are winning?

 

All the stories in shastra concerning surrender to the Lord, from lil dhruva, to Srila Prabhupada, all are stories of defeat at the hands of material nature.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

"Or put another way, who surrenders when they are winning?"

 

For sure bro. As long as we think there is hope for happiness in the material sphere we will continue to linger. The rich have their hopes stoked much of the time that it encourages them to always scheme for more.

 

Kunti prayed:

My Lord, Your Lordship can easily be approached, but only by those who are materially exhausted. One who is on the path of [material] progress, trying to improve himself with respectable parentage, great opulence, high education and bodily beauty, cannot approach You with sincere feeling. SB 1.8.26

[sanatan]

 

The disability doesn't leave the devotee, the devotee leaves the disability. He does this by identifying himself as he is, the eternal spiritual self, and he reclaims his eternal function as the Lord's loving servant.

 

It is like something like a prisioner in a caged jail cell. When he is released from the jail cell he no longer thinks of himself as a prisoner limited by the size and condition of his prision.

 

It's like a devotee with leprosy doesn't necessarily get cured in a physical sense...the consciousness is cured, but the devotee, being completely surrendered to Krishna, accepts Krishna's will in the matter of health...a completely God-conscious person with a horrible disease or disability is an inspiration to others of sufficient understanding.

[gHari]

We don't know what might have befallen us had we not purified ourselves somewhat, improved our cooperation with Sri Krsna somewhat. It might have taken much more dramatic influences to direct us in the right way. That broken finger might have been a broken arm, our speeding ticket a disabling car crash.

 

After weakening our obstinacy with devotional service, a destined stroke may need only become a bad cholesterol diagnosis from the doctor.

 

Will we become whole? Certainly it is possible - we hear of Lord Caitanya and Lord Jesus both curing lepers, of the blind seeing, the dead coming back to life. But most certainly any infirmity is bound to become less debilitating and traumatic than it would be in a world without Krsna.

[Guest guest]

i know an initiatig guru who told a friend who is full of many baaad illness that what je does sennrvice chanting etc would be doubked up,a pure devottee by the way

[theist]

This is from the forward to Caitanya Caritamrta.

 

Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami commenced work on the text at a very advanced age and in failing health, as he vividly describes in the text itself: "I have now become too old and disturbed by invalidity. While writing, my hands tremble. I cannot remember anything, nor can I see or hear properly. Still I write, and this is a great wonder." That he completed the greatest literary gem of medieval India under such debilitating conditions is surely one of the wonders of literary history.

[Guest guest]

Our individual prarabdha karmas is what makes the difference and the distinctions as to what happens to us after we have "surrendered".

 

 

 

First of all, on surrender: "Surrender" to the Divine is something that takes a long, long time to come to full fruition and complete. It takes many many lifetimes. It goes something like this: You, your essence, the soul, started out as a bija or seed. Then through many many lifetimes this seed grows. So just because your emotions and mind apparently "surrenders", it doesn't mean that this internal process of growing is complete. The bija or seed of the soul needs to grow the equivalent of roots, shoots, and leaves, then establish a healthy trunk, branches, and twigs. Only then is it possible to bear fruit, i.e. become who we were meant to be and fully perfect, all past karmas resolved.

 

 

 

 

One immediate lesson you can learn without waiting lifetimes, however, is when someone with less internal devotion and realization than us appears to externally execute the appearance of "service" better, you learn that to dance with the Divine takes place inside, in the inner realms, of your heart.

 

 

 

 

We have three kinds of karmas. Sanchita karma is the sum total of karmas of this life and past lives. Kriyamana karma is karmas we add to our sanchita karmas by one's thoughts, words, and deeds [even after we "surrender"].

 

A third type of karma is prarabdha: past actions shaping events of the present. "Actions begun, set in motion." That portion of sanchita karma that is bearing fruit and shaping the events and conditions of this current life, including the nature of one's body, personal tendencies, and associations.

 

 

 

Just because we surrender to Krishna, for example, doesn't mean that we immediately are going to start looking like Padma Laksmi, Aiswarya Rai, Heidi Klum, Tyra Banks, and/or Jude Law. We still have a certain nature of one's body. Some of us will have to settle for looking like Giselle Bundchen or Pamela Anderson. Just kidding.

 

Next: personal tendencies are part of prarabdha karmas. Many people on this forum claim to have surrendered to Krishna decades ago years and by their own accounts we hear how they only recently stopped doing this and that activity that is not condusive for development of bhakti. We then hear some of them wonder aloud why they haven't seen God yet. Others admit that they don't really have a taste 24/7/365 for the processes of devotional service. Still others, including some self-styled spiritual role models, do not possess all of the qualities of a devotee. So is that "personal tendencies". These personal tendencies develop over lifetimes to get to a point of real maturity.

 

Next is associations. People claim to "surrender" to Krishna all of the time, but on a day to day basis what kind of people do they end up hanging out with? What kinds of things do you end up doing with these people? How do you treat them? That affects how things develop also: whether or not you are generating more and more kriyamana karmas to be lived out and worked out.

 

 

 

In summary, due to our individual prarabdha karmas we get a certain kind of body/mind/emotions, tendencies, and associations. We tend to look a certain way and have apparent limitations of the body and mind or anna-maya kosha.

[Sridas]

Every soul has the same potential that comes from God and ultimately goes back to God. If we use our God given intelligence to recognize our highest welfare and prospect then we can start to act on that.

 

Sometimes we need to just take the bull by the horns and just do it.

We spend so much of our precious time lamenting what we're not, that we fail to be what we are.

 

Talking about it, thinking about it, writing about it, dreaming about it. Just make a practical step to go and do it, set the ball in motion.

Break out of the limitations of the mind that is working as the enemy of your potential rather than the best friend. When Krsna states He is the ability in you then don't just dissmiss that as a mundane statement. Have faith that He can do wonders through any body... abled or disabled he is the enabling principle in all things animate or inanimate, the very life force of each and every atom. But we must willingly connect to His will as has been mentioned about the process of surrender here.

 

It's kind of like going to a job application or speaking publicly, it's daunting, especially if we have no confidence in our capacity, but once thru the front door we are on the way. They say 90% of success is just showing up, the rest tends to form it's own momentum.

 

A lot of devotees are misplaced souls in this world we don't fit, like fish out of water and that can tend to cripple our participation or contribution to a world or ideal we feel is futile, and wasted energy. A devotee just needs to get engagement in that which they truly love and that will automaticly bring satisfaction, in whatever form that may take for our full potential to be realized or actualized. Otherwise it is a constant cause of frustration.

 

For our fully bloomed service capacity to be shared happily with the rest of the environment we have to sometimes take those practical steps or quantum leaps into the unknown, and trust that we have a friend who is working to see all of us become fully capable.

We are making our Karma at every moment and it's a complex network but if we just find out what our special gift is and do that, that will start the ball rolling.

No matter what everyone else is good at doing it is better to perform ones service imperfectly than to try doing someone elses perfectly.

Some souls may look like they are oozing with talent but may lack a basic ingredient of humility or compassion, and what is that worth?

[theist]

Guest,

 

I can appreciate your words on the different aspects of karma. That is agreed upon by all schools I would think.

 

I am not sure if you are a vaisnava(theist) or if you are from the Advaita way of thinking.

 

The theists would being in another angle. We accept the personality of Godhead to be Superior to the impersonal Brahman. Liberation to the Vaisnava means more then being free from material identification. That follows automatically for one who has attained transcendental love for God.

 

The vaisnava is open to Divine intervention from Krsna. He is in charge of karmic law and can adjust it or eliminate it as He sees fit. This was explained nicely by gHari in post #15. He can eliminate lifetimes of material entanglment irregardless of that persons past deeds and current impressions.

 

In addition He may even intervene to cause extra hardship for the aspirant to increase his dependency on Himself. Taking away wealth from a sincere but overly attached bhakta whosr prarabdha-karma had that bhakta destined for great wealth.

[Redsox]

Theist: "The vaisnava is open to Divine intervention from Krsna. He is in charge of karmic law and can adjust it or eliminate it as He sees fit. This was explained nicely by gHari in post #15. He can eliminate lifetimes of material entanglment irregardless of that persons past deeds and current impressions."

 

Ok! . So krishna should eliminate my problems but I still have problems. Only other option is : I am not surrendered to Krishna. What is surrender? Tell it to me in your terms, please don't quote because that will confuse me even more. thank you.

[Redsox]

 

In summary, due to our individual prarabdha karmas we get a certain kind of body/mind/emotions, tendencies, and associations. We tend to look a certain way and have apparent limitations of the body and mind or anna-maya kosha.

 

When I am surrendered, krishna takes complete control of my life yes? so what am I doing?

 

Why should I leave or not leave any associations or dissociations? Lets say I get annoyed over simple things, i can't help it, then when i surrender to krishna , my annoyance should leave me. But it doesn't because of karma, why doesn't krishna take away my annoyance by taking away my karma of annoyance?

[Redsox]

 

Or put another way, who surrenders when they are winning?

 

All the stories in shastra concerning surrender to the Lord, from lil dhruva, to Srila Prabhupada, all are stories of defeat at the hands of material nature.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Ok I accept it, Krishna will make you helpless and finally force you to surrender, it is his mercy. I got that.

 

But, then after my surrender I don't get rid of my problems. The only other option is i am not surrendered, so what is surrender?

[Redsox]

Ok i am sorry if I am posting too many times here, i don't mean to post so many times. But I just notice that all of these ways of thinking are just ways to make ourselves feel good.

I am just making myself feel its okay to have problems by thinking that this is the way krishna shows me mercy, by creating more problems. I surrendered my life to krishna, I thought it will make me happy, give me peace, but now these problems still persist so I become conditioned to accept them and find peace that way.

NO

Maybe I went into these bhakti rasa tendencies just too soon, with out understanding what surrender IS.

So what is surrender? please this is a sincere desire to be helped , I don't mean to waste anyone's time with my problems.

[Guest guest]

Look at your astrological chart to see what prarabdha karmas you will probably experience in this lifetime. Then see what measures you can do to alleviate what's coming to you and try not to create new negative kukarmas by what you say, do, and think.

 

Your soul is like a green fruit. You can't force something to ripen. Even after you "surrender" there is a ripening process. You can read about this in the Gaudiya Vaisnava literary classic Brhad Bhagavamrita. "Walking on water wasn't built in a day." -- Jack Kerouac.

 

The first noble truth of the Buddha is: "Life is Suffering". This is the material world, the place of suffering. Do you know of someone who is not suffering?

 

There are different stages of bhakti. One stage is when you first "surrender" as a neophyte you feel all giddy. Then unless you are an uttama adhikari after a while the infaturated honeymoon period is over and you have doubts. You are not at stage of firm faith yet. One of the stages is called firm faith.

 

Before the jiva gets to the stage of firm faith, there is a stage where you alternate between feeling like Superman and nothing can go wrong, then discouraged and lament when bad things happen to good people.

 

It's a growth process like going from a baby to a toddler to a kid to a teen.

Or like the Velveteen Rabbit: after all of your fur is rubbed off and and one eye is missing then you are real. Or like Pinocchio when you start to care about someone else more than yourself then you can become a Real Boy.

 

There is a very long list of stages very clearly elucidated and defined in the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition that you go through after you initially "surrender".

It's not like "first you surrender" and then "you live happily forever after, The End." You go through some real hum-dingers, more like playing Monopoly, according to the Gaudiya Matha theology that I have read.