Is disciplic succession a scriptural injunction?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Prabhupada always spoke of belonging to the unbroken chain of disciplic succession. Which part of "unbroken" do you not understand? Who came up with that phrase? What is the meaning of unbroken in that context? that it gets broken and fixed again and again? is that the meaning of unbroken?

Actually Srila Prabhupada hasn't really used the phrase unbroken chain of disciplic succession, except for one solitary letter written in 1951 where he says: "Sages of India realized this by a perfect deductive process which descends on human consciousness by the transcendental unbroken chain of disciplic succession".

 

Your claim that Srila Prabhupada "always spoke" of this is just a myth, one that you probably honestly believe. The phrase primarily originated from people like Satsvarupa, and there are over 20 or 30 uses of it in BTG from 1970 to 2000 (by Satsvarupa and others, not by Srila Prabhupada), plus countless uses in other books like ISKCON Communications Journal. There are zero places where Srila Prabhupada uses this phrase in his books, lectures, and conversations - and just the one single use in his above letter from 1951. This catch phrase is not really a "Prabhupada catch phrase", its a "Satsvarupa catch phrase". They have also inserted this phrase into "A Second Chance", a book not written by Srila Prabhupada, but created by his disciples from his teachings.

 

The only quote you cite that actually uses this phrase, which you attribute to "(from the Dr. Frog Ph.D. talks)" is not spoken by Prabhupada at all. It doesn't exist in the folio. So again you have unintentionally quoted someone else and claimed it is Prabhupada speaking.

 

In every other case Srila Prabhupada speaks of unbroken knowledge. Perhaps such simple distinctions you can't catch. You keep repeating that Srila Prabhupada says this, Srila Prabhupada says that. Many of these things that you think Srila Prabhupada said, he never did. You have learned from various ISKCON and non ISKCON sources, and you pass it on as Prabhupada said.

 

Even then, an unbroken chain of disciplic succession in no way refers to physical bodies. It still refers to unbroken knowledge, and that is what Srila Prabhupada "always said". To confirm this, just have a look at the quotes you cited above - minus the one fake quote from Dr. Frog.

[Guest guest]

 

“Caitanya-caritamrita – Adi Lila” by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self.

 

 

"Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji ... initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura"

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura ... initiated Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji"

 

"The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura"

 

 

The great souls Jiva Goswami and Raghunatha dasa Goswami became very dear to Rupa Goswami. Jiva Goswami was a disciple of Rupa Goswami. Raghunatha dasa Goswami, a disciple of Advaita Ächaryya’s disciple Yadunandana Ächaryya, was accepted by Rupa and Sanatana as their third brother. Raghunatha dasa Goswami’s beloved student was Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami. Krsnadasa Kaviraja was an intimate friend of Lokanatha Goswami. They lived together in Vrndavana and always discussed the topics of Krsna with one another. Lokanatha Goswami, a disciple of Gadadhara Pandita, had only one disciple, whose name was Narottama dasa. Narottama dasa was always engaged in the service of his guru, and he also engaged himself in the service of his guru’s intimate friend. Thus he became very dear to Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami. To serve the feet of Narottama dasa Thakura was the

only desire of Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura, who was the fourth acharyya in disciplic succession from Narottama dasa.

 

[Guest guest]

On this web site, is anyone allowed to say:

 

"Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji did not initiate Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura"

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did not initiate Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji"

 

"The direct disciple of Lokanatha Goswami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura"

 

Or will this post be deleted?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Your claim that Srila Prabhupada "always spoke" of this is just a myth, one that you probably honestly believe.

 

yes, you are right. I stand corrected. It is yet another common Iskcon myth created by extrapolation and distortion. However, Prabhupada did not seem to object to that phrase when used by his disciples (for example in introduction to his books and promotional pamphlets printed while he was still on earth) and at least once used that phrase himself.

 

One can also ask what is the meaning of "unbroken knowledge" when associated with the phrase "disciplic succession" where we have for example Madhva and Srila Prabhupada. Did Prabhupada really present Madhva's unbroken knowledge? That seems just as misleading as saying that it is an unbroken chain of disciplic succession (if not more so).

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

One aspect of knowledge, is direct spiritual experience of the Personality of Godhead, as opposed to a particular written philosophy. Different devotees will have different direct perceptions of the Lord, and based on that they will present a written philosophy. The actual knowledge is absolute, even though it appears different to different people. The reflection of that knowledge is their philosophy. The knowledge passed down in the disciplic succession is unbroken because it is the perception of the Supreme Lord. Though it may vary according to the devotee's relationship with the Lord, it still remains a perfect perception of the Lord.

 

What is planted in the heart of the devotee at the time of initiation is that seed of transcendental knowledge, which will lead to direct experience of the Lord.

 

As far as the phrase "unbroken chain of disciplic succession", I don't see anything particularly wrong with it as long as it isn't used as the "proof" for a physical chain of bodies. I only pointed out that it wasn't Srila Prabhupada's key phrase to show how many of the things we repeat in ISKCON didn't really come from him but from later preachers. I am sure I have used that particular phrase many times as well, but not in the context of an absolutely physical chain of bodies, with each guru performing a diksha ceremony with fire sacrifice, etc.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I am sure I have used that particular phrase many times as well, but not in the context of an absolutely physical chain of bodies, with each guru performing a diksha ceremony with fire sacrifice, etc.

 

I have NOT used it in that context (diksha requirement).

 

Yet I still see it as a chain of direct, physical contacts of gurus, where inquires are made, information and inspiration (sanga) is exchanged, and vital spiritual knowledge is transfered on a person to person physical exchange basis.

[Guest guest]

You will see that the 'Prabhupada only' gang is mostly comprised of the ritviks and the ones that have ritvik tendencies. This is what fanaticism, borne out of incorrect understanding of the scriptures, does.

 

 

So ISKCONites and Prabhupada Onlyites should not be suprised when people they have preached to or even those who have lived in ISKCON temples join the SCSM or other Maths. Devotees want a sadhu who they can trust and who will not fall down.

[Guest guest]

You will see that the 'Prabhupada only' gang is mostly comprised of the ritviks and the ones that have ritvik tendencies. This is what fanaticism, borne out of incorrect understanding of the scriptures, does.

 

I couldn't agree more with the rest of your post.

 

 

We are speaking of non-Indian devotees only. Even in places like Russia most SCSM devotees had some ISKCON contact even superficially, (devotees or books) before contact with SCSM. ISKCON does a very good job of introducing people to Krsna Consciousness. Many of those who are introduced immediately see ISKCON's current contradictions and seek out a spritual master that they feel they can trust, such as Srila Govinda Maharaja. This just happens to be the contemporary situation in the world of spreading Krsna Consciousness. Its not that devotees of SCSM International are envious of Prabhupada. Srila Govinda Maharaja had an intimate relationship with him as many know. So ISKCONites and Prabhupada Onlyites should not be suprised when people they have preached to or even those who have lived in ISKCON temples join the SCSM or other Maths. Devotees want a sadhu who they can trust and who will not fall down.

[Guest guest]

In S.B. 1.1.22 the sages of Maimisaranya say:

 

We think that we have met Your Goodness by the will of providence, just so that we may accept you as captain of the ship for those who desire to cross the difficult ocean of Kali, which deteriorates all the good qualities of a human being.

 

Purport (only the last two sentences)

 

Learned men, therefore, must be cautious in this age, and if they at all want to cross over the dangerous ocean of Kali, they must follow the footsteps of the sages of Naimisaranya and accept Sri Suta Goswami or his bona fide representative as the captain of the ship. The ship is the message of Lord Sri Krsna in the shape of Bhagavad-gita or the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

 

I provided this quote because I find it intersting that Srila Prabhupada refers to the books as 'the ship' which is passive and he refers to the spiritual master as the captain of the ship.

 

Hence - the need for consulting two Bhagavatas - the book and the person.

[theist 1]

 

99% of the leading and senior devotees in all the Sridhar Maharaja factions, the Narayana Maharaja camp, both Puri Maharaja camps and so on are ex ISKCON devotees. Of those about 40% are direct Prabhupada disciples. If you go to Vrndavana in Kartika you will find about 60% of the non-Indian devotees are from Gaudiya Math off-shoots, although ISKCON has far more devotees worldwide. Devotees sometimes change camps some leave ISKCON and some go back to ISKCON or become Rtviks. If you love Prabhupada then tell others about Prabhupada but you have to recognize that others will love their guru and their sanga and want to bring you in. Just like you will want to bring others into the Prabhupada only camp. It works both ways. What to do? Trnadapi sunicena...

Camps camps and more camps. Believe it or not there are some of us who prefer not to be included in the membership of any of these camps. It is the my camp vs. your camp conscious people that are causing the problems. I am not in the Prabhupada only camp. I have consistently stated that the first principle is to put one's faith in the mercifull directive guidance of the Lord in your heart (not the mind as one guest implied). The Lord will then direct that soul to where that soul should be and this will be different for different souls. Some to Prabhupada, some to someone else.

 

The essential point is to be sincere in one's desire to be properly directed by the Paramatma.

 

The fact that people keep harping to each other from one camp to the next proves their own insecurity in their position as far as I am concerned. Such people need to get the approval and agreement of other's to strengthen themselves. When you don't agree they become angry and fanatical and try harder to bend you to their way of thinking.

 

Because most of us materialistic devotees don't really believe there is a God in control of these things, IOW's that Krsna is directing the wanderings of all living beings, we feel we must force our view onto others. To not actually accept that there is a God in control is actually a symptom of atheism irregardless of one's pious dress or pronouncements.

 

If someone says they are hearing their teacher through their teachers writings why should some monkey from another camp jump in and say they are wrong. To some of you I say mind your business and clear your own garden of weeds and let others tend to theirs.

 

The best way to glorify your teacher is by living his teachings and showing they work by your character.

[Guest guest]

I would like those of you who think that all you need for spiritual perfection is to read books, in particular, Prabhupada's books - why there is no example of this type of 'discipline' within our lineage. Books have been available for a long time yet we don't have a single example of an acharya in our lineage who hasn't accepted the very first aspect of the regulative process which is to accept a spritual master, take initation from him/her, render service and ask revelant questions that will help the sadhaka progress. Do any of you wonder why Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sent Ragunatha dasa Goswami to Svarupa Damodara for instruction rather than handing him a book? Obviously books were available.

[theist 1]

 

Yeah that is kind of how I feel. I don't have any problem with people having their own guru. The point where it gets ridiculous to me is when people get offended that you wont fall at the feet of their guru. My position is that I wish all gurus the best but Srila Prabhupada is the one I have most natural affection for because he traveled to this godforsaken country at least from a spiritual perspective and went through countless things I would never have the patience or the fortitude to endure just to help people like myself.

 

Amen AM, Amen

[Guruvani 0]

for the followers of Srila Prabhupada, "the books" aren't the original Bengali or Sanksrit texts that they actually understand.

 

The books are Srila Prabhupada have taken the original texts and translated them into another language altogether.

 

The books of Srila Prabhupada are the exclusive explanation and commentary of shastra by an acharya in another language altogether, so the BOOKS aren't just BOOKS, they are the explicit explanation and instruction by the spiritual master.

 

Aside from that, the ritvik concept was never based on books alone.

The ritvik system was built upon the superstructure of ISKCON as in international sanga of devotees.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't emphasize the books alone.

He gave us all ISKCON and each other.

 

If we can go back and take a snapshot of how ISKCON was operating just before the passing of Srila Prabhupada, with a representative GBC and authorized offficiators giving formal intiations into ISKCON, then we can see exactly how Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to function.

 

Books alone aren't enough.

We need association of devotees and that is what Srila Prabhupada gave us with ISKCON.

He gave us each other.

That was also one of his greatest gifts apart from the books.

 

How many times did Srila Prabhupada say that initiation was a formality?

Several times for sure.

 

If formal initiation is a formality, then that shoots the physical guru theory out of the sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada came to accept that the ritvik system was the best way for keeping up this formal diksha process and at the same time keep factioning and sectarianism out of ISKCON.

 

The 11 ritviks conspired to overthrow the GBC authority and declare themselves as the new spiritual masters of ISKCON.

The result is that ISKCON has suffered massive disruption in wave after wave since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Anyone who thinks they can get better knowledge and more knowledge setting down on the floor in front of a physical guru than they can from a deep and thorough study of shastra is simply foolish.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Anyone who thinks they can get better knowledge and more knowledge setting down on the floor in front of a physical guru than they can from a deep and thorough study of shastra is simply foolish.

 

suuuuure.... and that is why Prabhupada constantly travelled all over the world to prop up and instruct his disciples instead of just mailing them books!

 

anyway, lets stick to the subject of parampara as a scriptural requirement. I dont want another holy war on this thread...

[Guest guest]

I think we get into trouble comparing the founder with just any self-professed guru. How many disciples did he initiate without ever having been present? He also said he was present in his instructions. There is nothing to validate the proliferation of ISKCON diksa gurus under the rubric of 'living guru'

 

 

 

 

suuuuure.... and that is why Prabhupada constantly travelled all over the world to prop up and instruct his disciples instead of just mailing them books!

 

anyway, lets stick to the subject of parampara as a scriptural requirement. I dont want another holy war on this thread...

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I think we get into trouble comparing the founder with just any self-professed guru.

 

true. yet my comment was related to the notion that somehow you can do it all by books alone.

[Guest guest]

The answer is quite simple ... most 'book vadis' are simply envious of the current Spiritual Guru's in the gaudiya vaisnava community today. They therefore try to minimize the importance of these Gurus by insisting that books are enough and there is no need to approach any of them.

 

They provide quotes & letters from Srila Prabhupada out of context to support their position. However this position is not supported by sastra or previous Acaryas. You have posed a wonderful question to disprove this 'books are enough' theory ... Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sent Ragunatha dasa Goswami to Svarupa Damodara for instruction rather than handing him a book.

 

 

I would like those of you who think that all you need for spiritual perfection is to read books, in particular, Prabhupada's books - why there is no example of this type of 'discipline' within our lineage. Books have been available for a long time yet we don't have a single example of an acharya in our lineage who hasn't accepted the very first aspect of the regulative process which is to accept a spritual master, take initation from him/her, render service and ask revelant questions that will help the sadhaka progress. Do any of you wonder why Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sent Ragunatha dasa Goswami to Svarupa Damodara for instruction rather than handing him a book? Obviously books were available.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Anyone who thinks they can get better knowledge and more knowledge setting down on the floor in front of a physical guru than they can from a deep and thorough study of shastra is simply foolish.

Generally when Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja and other modern English speaking acaryas use the word knowledge in the context of Krsna Consciousness they are actually refering to transcendental knowledge. Transcendental knowledge is really knowledge in Krsna Consciousness or bhakti itself. By the word bhakti they are referring to suddha bhakti or pure devotional service. If suddha bhakti exists in the heart then there will be rati or even bhava. Even hearing has a relative aspect. You can hear from a suddha bhakta sadhu directly or through an electronic medium. When we hear the recordings of Srila Prabhpada's bhajans we can sense the transcendental emotions or bhavas that he is feeling. Many devotees have told me that while listening to his bhajans through electronic media they have had some kind of transcendental experience or at least a shadow of one. Some times when one hears Srila Sridhar Maharaja's recordings you can just hear is transcendental bliss pouring into your ears. Of course it doesn't always happen and you can't expect it or expect anything. But when I just read the books I remember hearing either live or through electronic media and then with that memory the books become more alive to me. I have met brand new people who have only read and generally they miss certain major concepts. I have also met new people who have had amazing experiences just by reading the books. Others have begun chanting just by taking the advice of the books and had amazing experiences. So both are necessary: hearing from the sadhu and reading his books. Then some reciprocation through service must be there from our side. Krsna is the most subtle, no matter how much we debate these issues He many choose to remain beyond our grasp. He is adhoksaja, beyond our mind and our senses. Sometimes we are hearing or reading and serving with our mind and senses. That's good at a certain stage but at a certain point if our heart does not become involved then it will remain like cast iron. Generally hearing will accelarate the process of melting the hard heart. But no one really knows if, when or how Krsna will decide to reveal Himself.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

true. yet my comment was related to the notion that somehow you can do it all by books alone.

 

Kulapavana here is a good passage that relates to what you are saying.

 

SB 1.2.18

 

By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

 

PURPORT

Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhāgavatas. There are two types of Bhāgavatas, namely the book Bhāgavata and the devotee Bhāgavata. Both the Bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhāgavata is as good as the book Bhāgavata because the devotee Bhāgavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhāgavata and the book Bhāgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhāgavatas. Bhāgavata book and person are identical.

 

The devotee Bhāgavata is a direct representative of Bhagavān, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhāgavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhāgavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhāgavata or the book Bhāgavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Śrīla Nāradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant’s son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Śrīla Nāradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhāgavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhāgavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhāgavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhāgavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhāgavata, and the combination of these two Bhāgavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.

[Guruvani 0]

 

suuuuure.... and that is why Prabhupada constantly travelled all over the world to prop up and instruct his disciples instead of just mailing them books!

 

anyway, lets stick to the subject of parampara as a scriptural requirement. I dont want another holy war on this thread...

 

then where is your proof that parampara is a physical succession?

you haven't proved your point yet.

 

We have seen lots of good references that show that succession is about the unbroken passing of perfect knowledge, but you haven't been able to show anything that parampara is based on physcial proximity to the physical machine that a liberated soul is using to reach fallen souls.

 

It appears that your inquiry has alread been answered definitivly, but you are pretending that there is nothing in shastra that explains parampara as the passing of perfect knowledge from guru to disciple.

 

Physical succession cannot be proved with authority.

If it can, then why can't you prove it?

[Beggar 0]

If we really accept this purport then how can there continue to be any disagreement over this issue? It's time for certain devotees to renounce stubborness.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

If we really accept this purport then how can there continue to be any disagreement over this issue? It's time for certain devotees to renounce stubborness.

 

 

There probably really is no disagreement both book bhagavata and devotee bhagavata are identical. The disagreement seems to come when people try to dictate to others who is devotee bhagavata. I guess people on both sides just need to be secure in who their devotee bhagavata is and maybe leave each other alone.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

then where is your proof that parampara is a physical succession?

you haven't proved your point yet.

 

 

actually, the thread - and the main question - is whether disciplic succession is prescribed by the shastra.

 

as to the physicality of our succession - where in the chain is it NOT physical? you will be hard pressed to find a case where a succeeding master was not in a direct physical contact with a former guru or at least his (unnamed in the line) disciples. even if you argue that such breaks exist - they are the EXCEPTION to the rule, and NOT THE RULE.

 

that is proof enough for me for the physical succession in our tradition.

[Guest guest]

The books are dripping with the instruction to seek out a bona fide spiritual master, inquire from him/her - then - submission and service. Our sastra Gurus have established the process and it is very clear in all their writings.

 

BTW, for Guruvani - commentary on the scriptures did not start with Srila Prabhupada. He based his own commentaries on the commentaries of previous acharyas which are also sastra. No matter how much is in print it is still a 'passive voice' in that there is no give and take. When Srila Prabhupada described the spiritual master as the captain of the ship and the books as the boat that is what he was referring to. We all need an expert captain to guide us. Why try to minimize or distort this point which is very clear in sastra?

 

I have not seen anyone pushing a particular devotee who they view as the person Bhagavata on others in this thread. But I have repeatedly seen the principle of disciplic succession and instruction being validated by quotes from sastra. The point is - we should all read the books and pray to Krsna in our hearts that he manifest before us in the form of Sri Guru. That is a universal principle.

 

I know for myself after having read the teaching of Lord Kapila in the fourth canto of S.B. I realized the absolute necessity of association with advanced devotees.

[Guruvani 0]

 

a

 

as to the physicality of our succession - where in the chain is it NOT physical?

The chain is NOT physical with a large number of disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada showed by his example and his practices that he accepted disciples who didn't have physical diksha from him.

 

But, it is quite apparent that you do not accept what Srila Prabhupada has done and insist that succesion is a physical thing, even though Srila Prabhupada gave us many examples of how it is NOT.

 

Bottom line is that you don't accept what Srila Prabhupada has done and you think you know better than him.

 

So there you have "become more than guru"..... more than Srila Prabhupada to second guess his practices and principles in spreading the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Kulapavana knows better than Srila Prabhupada!

 

That is your message on this whole issue.

 

My reply..................

You are seriously confused and envious of Srila Prabhupada.

 

(by the way, I have had physical contact with Srila Prabhupada, so I am not arguing in defense of myself)