Is disciplic succession a scriptural injunction?

[Guruvani 0]

 

suuuure. and all the other sages who already had proper diksha from their gurus and were present during that conversation got another "diksha" from Sukadeva Goswami at no extra charge...

 

that is what happens when poetry meets hard reality...

 

how do you know all these sages had "proper diksha" and why did they all accept Sukadeva as siksha guru?

 

There is no such imformation that says all the sages there had "proper diksha".

That is just your assumption which is probably a bad hunch.

[Guest guest]

 

Then what the Hell did Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja mean when they said that initiation is just a formality?

.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj didn't tell me diksa was a formality. He told me it was essential. Tad viddhi pranipatena...

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I thought it was lame to dismiss my concerns of a falldown. For me it is a real concern when people say you have to abandon Prabhupada and find the current link. How am I supposed to know the current link isn't going to falldown. That is a valid concern in my opinion but apparently you don't think so and you are entitled to your opinion. I wasn't commenting on the Vaisnavas you mentioned one way or another as I know virtually nothing about them.

 

sorry. I misunderstood your post. over the years I have counselled many devotees after their gurus fell down, even my own Godbrothers. I do not take that issue lightly.

 

anyway...

 

it is YOUR responsibility to determine who is a current link to the parampara for YOU.

 

initially, to his Godbrothers, Prabhupada was not a current link either.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

There is no such imformation that says all the sages there had "proper diksha".

That is just your assumption which is probably a bad hunch.

 

LOL! read the book and check out who was there...

[theist 1]

 

suuuure. and all the other sages who already had proper diksha from their gurus and were present during that conversation got another "diksha" from Sukadeva Goswami at no extra charge...

 

that is what happens when poetry meets hard reality...

 

Interesting how you always follow up you posts with a sarcastic little attempted put down of others.

 

Let me ask you clearly who initiated you?

 

As for myself I have not accepted diksa but still only in the process.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

sorry. I misunderstood your post. over the years I have counselled many devotees after their gurus fell down, even my own Godbrothers. I do not take that issue lightly.

 

anyway...

 

it is YOUR responsibility to determine who is a current link to the parampara for YOU.

 

initially, to his Godbrothers, Prabhupada was not a current link either.

 

 

No problem.

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana I applaud you for standing up against these bullies

 

What you are saying is common sense.

 

I particularly liked the refence about Bhaktisvarup Damodara Maharaja, who I am sure was a genuine Guru.

 

-muralidhar

[Guest guest]

 

Sri Guru and His Grace

chapter 8.

 

Thats pretty much wrong! Prabhupada: "God is always God, Guru is always Guru, if he is unqualified how can he beciome Guru?" (Science of Selfrealization, Ch.2, p. 58)

 

"A spiritual master is always liberated", Letter Tamal Krishna, 21/6/70

 

"The pure devotee of the Lord is never in the grip of maya or under her influence", (SB, 5.3.14, purport)

 

In sum if a guru falls down he never was a guru before, therefore the initiation is null and void and the very term "reinitiation" is not to be found in any vedic books. reinitiation=mental speculation=maya

[Guest guest]

I have not heard anyone say that someone should 'abandon' Srila Prabhupada. In fact, quite the opposite is true. You should fully accept Srila Prabhupada and pray for good guidance from an advanced vaishnava coming in his lineage. Finding a good guide under whom you can study and who can engage you in service does not mean abandoning Srila Prabhupada. Follow Srila Prabhupada who has made it abundantly clear that the way to progress rapidly in spirtitual life is to hear the message of the Bhagavatam in the association of advanced vaishnavas. That instruction doesn't mean that you need to be near that but don't listen to them! It means they can help you if you let them and if you acknwoledge Krsna speaking through them.

[Guest guest]

 

I have not heard anyone say that someone should 'abandon' Srila Prabhupada. In fact, quite the opposite is true. You should fully accept Srila Prabhupada and pray for good guidance from an advanced vaishnava coming in his lineage. Finding a good guide under whom you can study and who can engage you in service does not mean abandoning Srila Prabhupada. Follow Srila Prabhupada who has made it abundantly clear that the way to progress rapidly in spirtitual life is to hear the message of the Bhagavatam in the association of advanced vaishnavas. That instruction doesn't mean that you need to be near that but don't listen to them! It means they can help you if you let them and if you acknwoledge Krsna speaking through them.

 

This is rather fuzzy - people coming right off the street are being told - "look you have to find a genuine Vaishnava who can guide you for the rest of your live....? Of course there's always a risk - just listen to your mind...."

Nice vedanta!

[theist 1]

The word diksa is used differently and one must understand the context in which it is being used and not try to impose on it as it is used in a different context. This is a cause of much confusion.

 

This is the only definition that has any relevance for me.

 

CC Madhya 15

 

TRANSLATION 108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” -excerpt

[AncientMariner 0]

 

I have not heard anyone say that someone should 'abandon' Srila Prabhupada. In fact, quite the opposite is true. You should fully accept Srila Prabhupada and pray for good guidance from an advanced vaishnava coming in his lineage. Finding a good guide under whom you can study and who can engage you in service does not mean abandoning Srila Prabhupada. Follow Srila Prabhupada who has made it abundantly clear that the way to progress rapidly in spirtitual life is to hear the message of the Bhagavatam in the association of advanced vaishnavas. That instruction doesn't mean that you need to be near that but don't listen to them! It means they can help you if you let them and if you acknwoledge Krsna speaking through them.

 

 

Let me ask you this. Do the advanced vaishnavas that you are talking about think Prabhupada is dead?

[Guest guest]

It is against Vaisnava etiquette to say a departed Vaisnava is dead, so if someone were to say "Srila Prabhupada is dead" that person would be criticized for breaking the rules of etiquette. The fact remains, however, that Srila Prabhupada is not living in this world anymore. He doesn't walk on this earth anymore.

[Guest guest]

 

Interesting how you always follow up you posts with a sarcastic little attempted put down of others.

 

Let me ask you clearly who initiated you?

 

As for myself I have not accepted diksa but still only in the process.

 

 

We can see why he needs a little light comic relief at times to break up the endless barrage of assault on most things he is trying to express, Kulapavana is quite sober minded, and well adjusted. It appears some people in these forums have long standing resentments from so many confrontations from the past over issues that run deep in their conditioned stance.

 

Vaisnavas should be impartial and objective, always ready to consider different points of view. Krsna can make a blind man see, and a lame man walk any time he wants.

I particularly like Guests post #148 in this debate it is very clear and articulate. Makes perfect sense.... to me that is.

[Guest guest]

 

This is rather fuzzy - people coming right off the street are being told - "look you have to find a genuine Vaishnava who can guide you for the rest of your live....? Of course there's always a risk - just listen to your mind...."

Nice vedanta!

 

 

What? where did anyone say what you are saying?

 

People coming 'right off the street' are eternal souls like the rest of us. Informing them about the process of devotional service and the stages of advancement is fairly introductory as far as that goes. Most everyone can understand that they should hear from an advanced practicioner when it comes to any subject so I don't think that would be an issue. The idea of the 'rest of your life' should not come into the picture.

 

The standard, as far as accepting a guide goes, is that a sadhaka would associate with an advanced vaishnava and they would both get to know each other. There is no dictating through formulations matters of the heart. But the principle of the Spiritual guide and the need for such guidance is a universal principle.

 

I would personally recommend to anyone who would care to listen that they take their time and not jump into any commited relationship because of pressure from someone else. I think it is far better for those 'right off the street' to learn the devotional principles and to start practicing and see if it is a life that they are truly fulfilled by before making any kind of vows or pronouncements. Besides, by hearing and chanting and associating with devotees a person will find out fairly quickly if they feel enthused by such a lifestyle. But we have seen many people take up the practices and leave after their initial enthusiasm as well. So my personal feeling on the matter is that newbies should hear and chant and associate but I don't think they should seek a commited relationship in terms of genuine diksha or siksha until they have some experience. I also think that devotees who are functioning as guides would be wise to allow plenty of time before accepting someone as a disciple.

[Guest guest]

 

sorry. I misunderstood your post. over the years I have counselled many devotees after their gurus fell down, even my own Godbrothers. I do not take that issue lightly.

LOL....What arrogance "I have counselled many devotees after their gurus fell down" ......

 

Was this before or after your guru Harikesha fell down?

 

Don't worry, no need to depend on Prabhupada's books, if you need anything explained to you, you can still have direct personal contact with your living spiritual master at harimedia.net

 

harimedia.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157

"As times have changed and the initiation into religious or spiritual groups is becoming less important, intrusive and even irrelevant, the way in which people enter into the etheric realms is transforming. Using their previous attainments and connecting with entities from other dimensional realms, many are awakening to powers and sensitivity that give them entrance into arenas of activity formerly restricted to mystic initiates.

Initiation was meant to restrict who would have access to the tools of power. However, since the motives of the different groups offering this access spanned from a desire to selfishly control and manipulate the lives of others to being an agent of the bright light of God, initiation did little but distinguish the members of one group from another."

 

 

You could never get such explanations from Prabhupada's books.

[Guest guest]

Was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura a fool for lamenting that the great Vaishnavas he had known had now left this world?

 

Are the ritviks more intelligent than him, with their clever philosophy that "Prabhupada is still living".

 

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura:

 

(1)

ye anilo prema-dhana koruna pracura

heno prabhu kotha gela acaryya-thakura

That personality who delivered the treasure of prema-bhakti, who was so intense

with compassion—where is such a personality to be found as Sri Ächaryya Thakura

(Srinivasa Ächaryya)?

(2)

kanha mora swarup rupa kanha sanatana

kanha dasa raghunatha patita-pavana

Where are the saviours of the fallen souls? Where is my Svarupa Damodara, and

where are Rupa Goswami and Sanatana Goswami? Where is Raghunatha dasa to be

found?

(3)

kanha mora bhatta-juga kanha kaviraja

eka-kale kotha gela gaura nata-raja

Where are my Raghunatha Bhatta and Gopal Bhatta Goswamis? Where am I to

find Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja now? All at once they have gone to join Lord Gauranga,

the great dancer.

(4)

pasane kutibo matha anale pasibo

gauranga gunera nidhi kotha gele pabo

To reach such a perfect personality as Lord Chaitanya, I can only break my head

against the stone in the anguish of separation.

(5)

se-saba sangira sange ye koilo bilasa

se-sanga na paña kande narottama dasa

They have all gone off together in their own lila (Pastimes). Narottama dasa

Thakura says: “Unable to obtain their association, I must simply weep.”

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj didn't tell me diksa was a formality. He told me it was essential. Tad viddhi pranipatena...

In his authorized books he says:

 

 

"Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession,

follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing

spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song

about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati,

it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya

rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of Krsna consciousness

comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual

masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line

have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a

diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing

is siksa, or spiritual instruction".

[AncientMariner 0]

 

Was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura a fool for lamenting that the great Vaishnavas he had known had now left this world?

 

Are the ritviks more intelligent than him, with their clever philosophy that "Prabhupada is still living".

 

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura:

 

(1)

ye anilo prema-dhana koruna pracura

heno prabhu kotha gela acaryya-thakura

That personality who delivered the treasure of prema-bhakti, who was so intense

with compassion—where is such a personality to be found as Sri Ächaryya Thakura

(Srinivasa Ächaryya)?

(2)

kanha mora swarup rupa kanha sanatana

kanha dasa raghunatha patita-pavana

Where are the saviours of the fallen souls? Where is my Svarupa Damodara, and

where are Rupa Goswami and Sanatana Goswami? Where is Raghunatha dasa to be

found?

(3)

kanha mora bhatta-juga kanha kaviraja

eka-kale kotha gela gaura nata-raja

Where are my Raghunatha Bhatta and Gopal Bhatta Goswamis? Where am I to

find Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja now? All at once they have gone to join Lord Gauranga,

the great dancer.

(4)

pasane kutibo matha anale pasibo

gauranga gunera nidhi kotha gele pabo

To reach such a perfect personality as Lord Chaitanya, I can only break my head

against the stone in the anguish of separation.

(5)

se-saba sangira sange ye koilo bilasa

se-sanga na paña kande narottama dasa

They have all gone off together in their own lila (Pastimes). Narottama dasa

Thakura says: “Unable to obtain their association, I must simply weep.”

 

 

Maybe so but what do you make of this statement?

 

"He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die/ When thou art living still in sound!/ The Vaisnavas die to live, and living try/ To spread the holy name around!"

 

.

 

 

[Guruvani 0]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading

what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a

trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their

lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is,

wherever it may be.

[Guruvani 0]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We are not concerned with a material

connection. The mediator is not this flesh and body as we generally

think.

[Guest guest]

“Unable to obtain their association, I must simply weep.”

[Guest guest]

The problem with forums is that you get a dozen fragmented inputs that single out issues, and blow up points that are irrelevant to the continuity of the thread. Sabotaging the focus and attention to the substance that is trying to be brought out.

Throw a few wild cards in and debate over. Everything proceeds to degrade down to an emotional hodge podge. That's why such dialogues never work, everyone wants to be guru, to be heard instead of wanting to hear, better to find an authoritive God realized soul and simply listen to the ambrosia pouring from their heart. No argument, just submissive enquiry whereby the transmission of the Truth proper can take seed in the heart. Satisfaction garanteed. Ego games over.

[Guruvani 0]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

The disciplic succession is not a bodily succession. Sometimes it is

present, and sometimes it is lost and only appears again after two or

three generations, just as with Prahlada Maharaja. He was a great

devotee, but his son was a demon; then again his grandson was a

devotee. Even in the physical line we see such interruptions. In the

spiritual line we also see the channel of truth affected by the influence

of maya, or misconception. So, the experts will seek out the important

personages in the line.

[Guest guest]

In Srila Sridhar Maharaj's authorized book,

 

 

No book is without its errors