Is disciplic succession a scriptural injunction?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It is important to understand that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did not even tell his disciples the name of the diksa-guru of Srila Gaurakishore das babaji. The fact that he didn't communicate that was certainly intentional. He wanted to put an end to the idea that a parampara passing through various generations of (non-realized) caste Goswamis is not a factual Parampara but only an imitation Parampara.

 

that might have been his unique vision and understanding of the parampara, but in the general sense of the Vaishnava tradition parampara is something much more broad and generic. when Padma Purana speaks about four authorized disciplic successions it does not use the criteria that BST used.

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana,

 

Parampara means family tradition also, as in the lineage of a royal family or lineage of a sage.

 

A royal family's parampara may allow for many activities that we would think unacceptable - a particular royal family may for instance engage in hunting and meat eating. In that case, hunting is part of the traditional practices of that parampara.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

don't get your panties all in a bunch.

he is speaking in terms of the diksha guru principle which the vapuvada school that you belong too is ALL ABOUT.

 

Are you now changing sides from the vapuvada diksha guru school to the siksha guru camp?

 

the line BST has drawn for us is using both siksha and diksha, yet in every case it is a case of a direct linkage (not counting the "gaps" for which there simply is no record of intermediate gurus). you may call it vapuvada, I may call it a direct linkage, person to person, in terms of both siksha and diksha. that is a traditional and typical understanding of a parampara among all kinds of Vaishnavas, not some new invention to support someone's pet theory.

[Guruvani 0]

 

that might have been his unique vision and understanding of the parampara, but in the general sense of the Vaishnava tradition parampara is something much more broad and generic. when Padma Purana speaks about four authorized disciplic successions it does not use the criteria that BST used.

 

Can you present something verse from the Padma Purana to show what you mean?

Does the Padma Purana promote a parampara of physical succession?

 

If so, then can you show us the verse that proves that, or are you unable to prove your statements with other than your opinions?

 

Can knowledge and thought only be transmitted through a set of vocal chords and if so, then why did the Vedic sages put knowledge down in the form of script?

 

How is a set of physical vocal chords superior to script?

 

Since the body is a machine as described by Lord Krishha, then actually all knowledge is actually being transmitted through machines.

 

The body is a machine. Vocal chords are a mechanism.

 

Souls use these machines to pass on knowledge.

 

Why is one machine acceptable and another machine is not?

 

the body is not alive. the body is a machine.

 

the soul is the living aspect and simply using these machines for different purposes.

 

You seem to be promoting that the physical body is a living thing.

The body is not a living thing. It is only a machine.

 

A realized soul has the option to use any number of machines for transmaitting knowledge, including printing presses and tape recorders.

 

The body is just another machine like a robot or a tape recorder.

[Guest guest]

So now the 'parampara' actually means transfer of knowledge by whatever means, not necessarily through the gurus? LOL, it just gets funnier by the day!

 

Next you'll be telling us that the internet is the current big link for the parampara in the modern age! Keep it coming, it lightens our day

 

 

don't get your panties all in a bunch.

he is speaking in terms of the diksha guru principle which the vapuvada school that you belong too is ALL ABOUT.

 

Are you now changing sides from the vapuvada diksha guru school to the siksha guru camp?

[Guruvani 0]

 

So now the 'parampara' actually means transfer of knowledge by whatever means, not necessarily through the gurus? LOL, it just gets funnier by the day!

 

Next you'll be telling us that the internet is the current big link for the parampara in the modern age! Keep it coming, it lightens our day

So, you too think that the body is a living thing.

The body is a machine.

The computer is also a machine, though not quite as sophisticated as the human body.

 

So, yes, the computer is a machine through which spiritual knowledge can be transmitted.

 

The physical body is not the only machine that can be used for transmitting knowledge from one soul to another.

 

You vapuvadis are trying to tell the world that the machine IS the guru, that the guru IS the body.

 

Wow, you guys are laugh!

[Kulapavana 0]

lets concentrate on the subject matter of the thread. please keep it civil. I dont want that thread locked.

[Guest guest]

 

the line BST has drawn for us is using both siksha and diksha, yet in every case it is a case of a direct linkage (<font color=red>not counting the "gaps" for which there simply is no record of intermediate gurus</font>). you may call it vapuvada, I may call it a direct linkage, person to person, in terms of both siksha and diksha. that is a traditional and typical understanding of a parampara among all kinds of Vaishnavas, not some new invention to support someone's pet theory.

 

The names of the intermediate Gurus are known, but they were intentionally left out, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

In books published by Anantavasudeva's "Gaudiya Mission" you will sometimes see the lists, with the names of Uddhava das babaji, Madhusudana das babaji and others (such as the gurus of Visvanatha). They want to maintain the idea of "unbroken spiritual succession". But the line has breaks. Fact.

 

SSM:

The disciplic succession is not a bodily succession. Sometimes it is present, and sometimes it is lost and only appears again after two or three generations, just as with Prahlada Maharaja. He was a great devotee, but his son was a demon; then again his grandson was a devotee. Even in the physical line we see such interruptions. In the spiritual line we also see the channel of truth affected by the influence of maya or misconception. So, the experts will seek out the important personages in the line.

[gHari 0]

Lord Krsna defines His spiritual infrastructure in Bhagavad-gita 4.34:

 

<center>

tad viddhi praNipAtena

paripraznena sevayA

upadekSyanti te jJAnaM

jJAninas tattva-darzinaH

</center>

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; praNipAtena--by approaching a spiritual master; paripraznena--by submissive inquiries; sevayA--by the rendering of service; upadekSyanti--they will initiate; te--you; jJAnam--into knowledge; jJAninaH--the self-realized; tattva--of the truth; darzinaH--seers.

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

 

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The BhAgavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmaM tu sAkSAd bhagavat-praNItam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. Not only should one hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.

 

 

[Kulapavana 0]

 

In books published by Anantavasudeva's "Gaudiya Mission" you will sometimes see the lists, with the names of Uddhava das babaji, Madhusudana das babaji and others (such as the gurus of Visvanatha). They want to maintain the idea of "unbroken spiritual succession". But the line has breaks. Fact.

 

 

Prabhupada also wanted to maintain the idea of unbroken spiritual succession, as it definitely has a value.

 

sometimes we are told to think in a particular way not because it is true in every sense (or in absolute sense), but because it conveys a certain ideal that is worth developing in our consciousness. if we dont, than we will take rare exceptions to the rule to be the rule itself. it happens all the time and any excuse will be sufficient for some to abandon the real rule that has been there for millenia.

 

when you keep developing your own special definitions for commonly used concepts within our tradition and concentrate on the exceptions to the rules - the followers start thinking that it is ok to constantly change everything as you like and see fit. all of a sudden we cant agree on what initiation is, what diksha is, what guru is, what parampara is...

[theist 1]

 

the line BST has drawn for us is using both siksha and diksha, yet in every case it is a case of a direct linkage (not counting the "gaps" for which there simply is no record of intermediate gurus). you may call it vapuvada, I may call it a direct linkage, person to person, in terms of both siksha and diksha. that is a traditional and typical understanding of a parampara among all kinds of Vaishnavas, not some new invention to support someone's pet theory.

I call the transcendental sound parampara a direct linkage, person to person. Afterall the person is not the body but rather the spiritsoul.

Let's deemphasize the idea of seeing the guru in favor of hearing the guru.

 

[theist 1]

 

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; praNipAtena--by approaching a spiritual master; paripraznena--by submissive inquiries; sevayA--by the rendering of service; upadekSyanti--they will initiate: te--you; jJAnam--into knowledge; jJAninaH--the self-realized; tattva--of the truth; darzinaH--seers.

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

I consider that initiation to be one of transcendental sound vibration.

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada also wanted to maintain the idea of unbroken spiritual succession, as it definitely has a value.

 

when you keep developing your own special definitions for commonly used concepts within our tradition and concentrate on the exceptions to the rules - the followers start thinking that it is ok to constantly change everything as you like and see fit. all of a sudden we cant agree on what initiation is, what diksha is, what guru is, what parampara is...

 

 

But in the Gaudiya Math of Saraswati Thakur, devotees didn't preach or promote this idea of an "Unbroken disciplic succession". Only Anantavasudeva's group did that, after the disappearance of Saraswati Thakur.

 

Ignorance of the reality of how the Guru-Parampara has descended, as taught by Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura, that type of ignorance is not a virtue. ISKCON people who think the parampara is an unbroken line of diksa-gurus (many new people think like that), those people are in an illusion. They are just like the followers of caste-goswami gurus. They should understand the truth about the parampara of Saraswati Thakur. The essence of Guru Parampara is that you should approach a REALIZED SOUL, submissively ask them questions, and ask for initiation from them. This is how Parampara is continued through the generations. And if the parampara dies out, it can be re-started as it was by Jagannatha das babaji

 

 

 

An official answer of Sri Gaudiya Math to many common challenges

during its early period is given in a book written by Sri Gaur-

Govinda Dasadhikari Vidyabhushan published by Bhaktivinod Asan

in Daulatpur. Among the responses to various criticisms is the

following:

They say that Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswatipad never

received any Diksha-mantra by accepting somebody as his Guru.

It is neccessary to know his Guru-pranali.

Answer: Your griha-bauls and Jati-Goswamis in their majority are

far from being supporters of the regulative principles confessed by

Shuddha-Bhaktas and Vaishnavas. If they spread any insubstantial

gossip, we are not responsible for that. Sripad Siddhanta

Saraswati Prabhu accepted Diksha in full accordance with Shastra

from Sri Sri Vishnupad Gaura Kishor das Mahodoy in the month

of Magh, 1821 Shakabda. It is yet unknown persons, novices in

Bhajan, who are introduced in society by their previous Guruparampara;

famous Vaishnavas don't have to be introduced by this

method. Sripad Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhu has given his Guruparampara

in his 'Brahman Vaishnav taratomya Siddhanta' and in

Chaitanya Charitamrita.

- (Pratipa-priyanather-prashner-pratyuttor, 21)

 

translation by B.D.Narasimha Swami, a Russian disciple of Bhakti Pramode Puri Goswami

 

[Guest guest]

 

It is yet unknown persons, novices in

Bhajan, who are introduced in society by their previous Guruparampara;

famous Vaishnavas don't have to be introduced by this

method.

 

Exactly right

[Kulapavana 0]

 

But in the Gaudiya Math of Saraswati Thakur, devotees didn't preach or promote this idea of an "Unbroken disciplic succession". Only Anantavasudeva's group did that, after the disappearance of Saraswati Thakur.

Ignorance of the reality of how the Guru-Parampara has descended, as taught by Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura, that type of ignorance is not a virtue.

 

just as BST chose to present the idea of parampara in a new and unique way, so did Srila Prabhupada. In both cases you can find faults with their presentation, just as you can find virtues. Is the matter settled once and for all? Far from it. As you can see from his thread, there are all kinds of challenges out there, from traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava parivar ideas to ritviks.

 

IMO untill the issue of parampara (definition, inclusion criteria, mode of progress, etc.) are addressed by the Vaishnavas in a truthful, open, non-dogmatic, and scholarly fashion, we will have nothing but confusion and disagreements in that area.

 

that is why I started this thread, to look at the various shastric references in regards to the concept of parampara and spark an honest debate from which we can all benefit.

 

I have already benefited by hearing from many learned and sincere devotees. thank you very much. dandabat pranams.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I call the transcendental sound parampara a direct linkage, person to person. Afterall the person is not the body but rather the spiritsoul.Let's deemphasize the idea of seeing the guru in favor of hearing the guru.

 

I have no problem with that idea of hearing alone as long as it is a two-way process where a disciple can ask specific questions (prasna, or inquiry) and receive a direct and specific instructions (siksha). a tape recording is nice, but does NOT fulfill the requirements of this eternal process of inquiry and instruction. if it did, we would not be having this conversation.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Prabhupada presented the parampara as person to person contact.

Srila Prabhupada did not present the parampara as a link of bodies, one to the next - you did. It is amazing how much speculation you are presenting in this thread and then claiming "Prabhupada said it" without offering a single evidence. For whatever reason no one has even cared to challenge these baseless claims you are making. This is what Srila Prabhupada actually teach about Parampara:

 

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially.

Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion

." - Letter 31 October, 1969

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person." - Letter, 25th Jan. 1969

"It is not necessary always to be officially initiated, but if they participate in the group chanting of Hare Krsna Mantra and taking of Prasadam weekly or daily as it is possible, that will fulfill our mission." - Letter, 14th May 1970

Further, if you see under what context Srila Prabhupada speaks specifically about "parampara" it is always about Arjuna, the sun god, and the reception of Bhagavad Gita. In every instance he says, "we are receiving this Bhagavad Gita in parampara because we are receiving it from Lord Krishna through Arjuna." Of course this has very little connection to your idea of parampara, which involves the physical bodies of Bengalis from recent times.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not a fool. He presented a disciplic succession (as was presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati), where some of the gurus never physically met their disciples. He knew fully well that it was not a physical succession. Yet you make the baseless claim that Prabhupada was presenting a physical chain of bodies.

 

 

Yet Bhaktivinoda did not present himself as a disciple of SD in the sense of disciplic succession.

 

And the obvious reason is because he was initiated in the heart by Jagannatha Das Babaji. Just because he has been instructed by another pure devotee doesn't mean he must have been initiated by him.

 

 

like I said earlier, the line as presented by BST is more conceptual than based on any hard records.

 

That is your speculation. Srila Prabhupada never suggested it was a "conceptual" parampara.

 

 

and if we accept that our line goes through Bipin Bihari Goswami it gets even easier to trace it back to Mahaprabhu, as that line kept fairly good records, at least as far as I know.

 

You are hearing from mixed up sources. You should try hearing from Srila Prabhupada instead of all sorts of outside people. Srila Prabhupada never once mentioned the name of Bipin Bihari Goswami. He didn't even acknowledge his existence, and certainly didn't trace his guru parampara through him.

 

Additionally it shows you are flip flopping between diksha line and siksha line, while arguing in favor of an absolute physical diksha line. As other devotees have pointed out, there is no diksha line from Bhaktivinoda Thakur to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. The diskha line only goes to Lalit Prasad. So I can guess who gave you this suggestion. There is absolutely no diksha line connection between Srila Prabhupada and Bipin Bihari Goswami. The parampara could never be traced by this method, nor has Srila Prabhupaa suggested such a thing.

 

 

to deny direct disciplic linkage between Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinoda is purely imaginary contortionism.

 

Now you have jumped to a siksha connection, not diksha. So it is clear you are confused about these things.

 

 

the line BST has drawn for us is using both siksha and diksha

 

No, the line he has given is an absolute siksha line where diksha sometimes happens to coincide with siksha.

 

 

yet in every case it is a case of a direct linkage (not counting the "gaps" for which there simply is no record of intermediate gurus).

 

In your own sentence you defeat yourself by pointing out that your primary statement is false ("every case", but "not counting the gaps"). The fact that gaps are there is the proof it is not a case of direct linkage "in every case".

 

 

Prabhupada also wanted to maintain the idea of unbroken spiritual succession

No, Kulapavana wanted to maintain the idea of a physical unbroken succession, not Prabhupada. You keep pushing his name in front of your statements. Why do that? Just say it is your opinion and leave Prabhupada out of it. If Srila Prabhupada wanted to maintain the idea of a physical unbroken succession of bodies he wouldn't have presented a parampara with physical gaps.

[Guest guest]

This problem is a result of the failure of the people who had the authority to setup unambigous rules to do their job right. Instead of using proper logic and drawing from clear sources, they resorted to creating a careless and sloppy system which left many questions unanswered now causing much confusion and trouble. unfortunately, this confusion will persist until someone who is strong enough to make rules comes along and does a decent job.

[theist 1]

 

I have no problem with that idea of hearing alone as long as it is a two-way process where a disciple can ask specific questions (prasna, or inquiry) and receive a direct and specific instructions (siksha). a tape recording is nice, but does NOT fulfill the requirements of this eternal process of inquiry and instruction. if it did, we would not be having this conversation.

 

Again, as is the custom in almost all of these discussions on these issues the Paramatma (the Supreme Soul) is left out or seen as some very remote, far far away, ideal.

 

Once again, Caitya-guru is THE GURU. A spiritual master is authentic IF Caitya-guru has empowered that person. Not otherwise.

 

"Years in the movement", academic achievements, speaking ability,charisma and charm etc. do not a guru make any more than wearing a robe with a shaved head sitting on the big chair makes one a guru.

 

Without the touch of sakti to transmit bhakti from the Lord there is no true guru disciple relationship.

 

We can have villiage guru's, hereditary guru's, ecclesiastical guru's running out of our ears but if they weren't empowered by Caitya-guru there will not be any transmission of transcendental knowledge.

 

So you claim listening to a tape is not a two way process. I agree that if all you do is listen to the tape without the blessings of the Lord in the heart it is like that. But that is not what I mean by hearing or reading the commentary of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Even when present in the same room body to body with your guru and listening for hours if you are still seeing your guru as being separate from the Caitya-guru then you are not hearing Guru at all. There will be some benefit in the form of certain impressions gained that will bear fruit in the future but the two way relationship is not yet properly established.

 

Whereas someone listening to a tape of an actual pure devotee of Krsna in the mood of hearing God's voice in his guru's voice will have a two way relationship with Caitya-guru both directly within the heart and externally as the spiritual master. That doesn't mean the jiva who is your external guru is voided out it, it means that you accept that Jiva as an external manifestation of Caitya-guru. One and different as we all must remember.

 

"But we cannot question Guru unless we are with him bodily." Not so. We should always be seeking answers from Caitya-guru who is always with us. "My dear Lord, what does Srila Prabhupada means when he says this or writes that?Please enlighten me."

 

Lack of Guru means lacking in consciousness of Guru, not that there is no Guru. People who are formally initiated can also be without guru irregardless of their formal ceremony is they only view Guru in an external manner.

 

Krsna sends His representative to help the conditioned soul become reunited with Him. Not so the spiritual master and disciple can some sort of "relationship" apart from Him.

 

So you claim that one cannot inquire from the spiritual master who has left the earth. My point is if that person/Guru is genuine than he is a representative of Supersoul who is right in your heart right now watching you read this post.

 

Who can be closer to the soul than the Soul of all souls? He has always been there and He will never leave us alone. So why do we not direct our inquiries to Him, the actual Guru?

 

Again you cannot receive the message of the Guru without the blessings of the Caitya-guru who speaks through/as the spiritual master and who allows you to assimilate the message. In all phases the Supreme Lord is the essential Guru. And He is just as present as He ever was.

 

But what about the affection one has for the external manifestation of Guru?..... that specific jiva who labored so hard to bring you into Krsna consciousness. Should that be forgotten? of course not. You should continue on offering obeisances and prayers and culivating that affection and deeping it remembering that the sense of separation that we feel is due to our being encapsulated in the limitations of the material senses. The illusion of separation is from our side. The connecting point throughout all existence and in all circumstances is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who waits for us to turn to Him even now.

 

I think I know what is influencing you and where you are attempting to go with this. It is a familar refrain.

[AncientMariner 0]

"As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc. then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on." (Letter to Bala Krsna, 18/8/69)

 

"So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living." (General lectures, 69/01/13)

 

"It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life." (SB 3:31:48)

 

"So we should associate by vibration, and not by physical presence. That is real association." (Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing." (Letter to Rupanuga Das 19/10/74)

 

Paramahamsa:

"My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?"

 

Srila Prabhupada:

"Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?" (Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

[AncientMariner 0]

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

 

Sounds like a good deal to me. What do I have to do to sign up for that bargain?

[Guest guest]

It's just as easy to produce another set of quotes from some Acarya where the opposite is established.

 

Krsna's instructions are very clear. Approach a spiritual master, render service and submissively enquire. You can't ask questions to a book and neither will it respond.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada did not present the parampara as a link of bodies, one to the next - you did. It is amazing how much speculation you are presenting in this thread and then claiming "Prabhupada said it" without offering a single evidence. For whatever reason no one has even cared to challenge these baseless claims you are making. This is what Srila Prabhupada actually teach about Parampara:

 

 

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially.

Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion

." - Letter 31 October, 1969

 

 

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person." - Letter, 25th Jan. 1969

 

 

"It is not necessary always to be officially initiated, but if they participate in the group chanting of Hare Krsna Mantra and taking of Prasadam weekly or daily as it is possible, that will fulfill our mission." - Letter, 14th May 1970

 

Further, if you see under what context Srila Prabhupada speaks specifically about "parampara" it is always about Arjuna, the sun god, and the reception of Bhagavad Gita. In every instance he says, "we are receiving this Bhagavad Gita in parampara because we are receiving it from Lord Krishna through Arjuna." Of course this has very little connection to your idea of parampara, which involves the physical bodies of Bengalis from recent times.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not a fool. He presented a disciplic succession (as was presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati), where some of the gurus never physically met their disciples. He knew fully well that it was not a physical succession. Yet you make the baseless claim that Prabhupada was presenting a physical chain of bodies.

 

 

And the obvious reason is because he was initiated in the heart by Jagannatha Das Babaji. Just because he has been instructed by another pure devotee doesn't mean he must have been initiated by him.

 

 

That is your speculation. Srila Prabhupada never suggested it was a "conceptual" parampara.

 

 

You are hearing from mixed up sources. You should try hearing from Srila Prabhupada instead of all sorts of outside people. Srila Prabhupada never once mentioned the name of Bipin Bihari Goswami. He didn't even acknowledge his existence, and certainly didn't trace his guru parampara through him.

 

Additionally it shows you are flip flopping between diksha line and siksha line, while arguing in favor of an absolute physical diksha line. As other devotees have pointed out, there is no diksha line from Bhaktivinoda Thakur to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. The diskha line only goes to Lalit Prasad. So I can guess who gave you this suggestion. There is absolutely no diksha line connection between Srila Prabhupada and Bipin Bihari Goswami. The parampara could never be traced by this method, nor has Srila Prabhupaa suggested such a thing.

 

Now you have jumped to a siksha connection, not diksha. So it is clear you are confused about these things.

 

No, the line he has given is an absolute siksha line where diksha sometimes happens to coincide with siksha.

 

In your own sentence you defeat yourself by pointing out that your primary statement is false ("every case", but "not counting the gaps"). The fact that gaps are there is the proof it is not a case of direct linkage "in every case".

 

 

No, Kulapavana wanted to maintain the idea of a physical unbroken succession, not Prabhupada. You keep pushing his name in front of your statements. Why do that? Just say it is your opinion and leave Prabhupada out of it. If Srila Prabhupada wanted to maintain the idea of a physical unbroken succession of bodies he wouldn't have presented a parampara with physical gaps.

[Beggar 0]

I You can't ask questions to a book and neither will it respond.

I've been told that at the Rtvik Technological Divison they are working on a high tech computer controlled Prabhupada murti with an electronic brain. You will be able to ask the electronic Prabhupada any question and it (he) will respond from any of his books, letters or lectures. That's a little sarcastic satire. But really, there is the technology to do this. It would just cost many millions of dollars. So if you've got the money, you could have a robotic guru and by your mercy so could many others. So if one is a rich rtvik they should go for it.

[Guest guest]

ROFL X 10! The ritvik vadis are going to be one busy bunch!

 

 

I've been told that at the Rtvik Technological Divison they are working on a high tech computer controlled Prabhupada murti with an electronic brain. You will be able to ask the electronic Prabhupada any question and it (he) will respond from any of his books, letters or lectures. That's a little sarcastic satire. But really, there is the technology to do this. It would just cost many millions of dollars. So if you've got the money, you could have a robotic guru and by your mercy so could many others. So if one is a rich rtvik they should go for it.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

It's just as easy to produce another set of quotes from some Acarya where the opposite is established.

 

Krsna's instructions are very clear.

I never spoke anything about what Krishna said, what Bhagavad Gita says or what other Acharya's say. Kulapavana made a claim that Srila Prabhupada said something which he didn't, and I have objected to that claim. I'm not interested in debating with you what Krishna said in Bhagavad Gita.