Salary for the Temple Presidents!!

[Guest guest]

I wouldn;t want to comment without knowing all the facts but that is a lot of money in salary. But then perhaps that moneyis used for temple projects and not personally? We dont know the inner workings, so we can't point a finger.

 

 

Why are we Ganging Up on Dhanurdhara Swami?

BY: GURUKULI DASA

[.........]

Gauri das is now the temple president at the Bhaktivedanta Manor, one of the most prominent temples in ISKCON, he receives a wage of about US$ 60000 a year complete with and enviable pension scheme from Prabhupada’s money for his “service”. He is honored as a senior and respectable member of the community. He has a contract that when he leaves, for two years he will receive the full salary.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

But then perhaps that moneyis used for temple projects and not personally? We dont know the inner workings, so we can't point a finger.

From past experience I would say the money is just a personal salary, nothing to be used for temple projects or anything spiritual. This is not an isolated case, there are hundreds of devotees, temple presidents, etc., who receive salary in ISKCON, even in India. For example one devotee quit his job as a software enginner in Chennai because he was offered a higher salary as an ISKCON president (or vice-president) in Calcutta. Prabhupada's spiritual movement is being turned into a corporate profit making company with all the leaders dividing the profits.

 

I have seen temple leaders with 35,000 Rs. cell phones. Where does that money come from? They collect it in the name of spiritual activity and then divide it as salaries.

[Guest guest]

LOL X 10!!! Is that really true?! I find this utterly amusing. Just what is going on!

 

 

For example one devotee quit his job as a software enginner in Chennai because he was offered a higher salary as an ISKCON president (or vice-president) in Calcutta.

[Guest guest]

While the paying of exorbitant salaries is certainly questionable (by the way, I do support salary payments but the numbers I have been seeing in this thread are just way too high to justify), the use of equipments such as expensive cell phones may not be a bad thing if they were presented as a gift. How do we know if the leaders used money to buy them or got them as a gift from someone?

 

 

I have seen temple leaders with 35,000 Rs. cell phones. Where does that money come from? They collect it in the name of spiritual activity and then divide it as salaries.

[Guest guest]

Wages for Sages

 

Trying to make it valid just because it rhymes?

 

I am not a hardliner and not opposed to implement changes, but in my humble view this is a serious deviation conducive to sense gratification.

 

Are we going to fix things by going further away from Srila Prabhupada's orders? Maybe we think that we are going to arrive at the departure point by completing the circle? That is, more we deviate, more closer you are to the original point?

 

"Wages for sages" sounds like an insult to the intelligence, advertisement propaganda, trying to hide the wrong concept, not supported by Srila Prabhupada.

 

sage = brahmana = devotee = manager = all very confusing

 

Brahmana power comes from independence, and wages means dependence. Even Canakya Pandita showed us by example living in a hut, and the Emperor had to come to his place.

 

If a person cannot organize a temple with the simple program and live depending on Krishna, then he is not brahmana. If he needs wage is a shudra, if he puts money as central, he is vaishya.

 

And who are the ones giving wages? We see that at the Manor and that is what we want to institute?, the Hindu vaisyas are giving wages and shudra "devotees" living off them. Note that THIS is one of the main battle points of Srila Prabhupada when criticizing "devotees" worshiping the Deity for a living as caste goswamis do.

 

Mode of goodness means you trust in Krishna´s shelter and do not make plans for own maintenance. Rajo guna means not having this faith and having to do some kind of business arrangement to maintain themselves and status quo. Shudra means they depend on vaishyas providing wages to live. They do not have faith, only if they get regular wages working for another they are peaceful.

 

We failed because we do not understand this and in turn, you cannot expect a vaishya or shudra understand the renunciation and lifestyle of a brahmana, they consider them bums in our modern day present situation.

 

Any money that comes immediately spend on preaching, books and prasadam. This is Srila Prabhupada's program.

 

That means faith and that only can be done by a brahminical tendency person. Managers in the mode of passion they like to do business, charge Sunday feast, "cultivate" the wealthy to build big temple, and put money as the main ingredient for advancing the "preaching". If you, dear reader are thinking like this, you are not qualified to run a Krishna conscious temple.

 

Magic of Krishna consciousness happens when you act focusing on the direct simple Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and then, when your focus is not the money, nice and stable development will come. Rajo guna people just do fail to see this.

 

Krishna is always making this test. He would cause the temple go almost lost when you follow what I just explained and then (it is always like this, dear devotees) He will come at last minute to save the situation and make it really better than before.

 

Rajo guna people they fail to pass the test and start to concoct material money focused plans to "save" the project even at the cost of negating brahminical principles of truthfulness (we see that many times when poojari child abuser has been protected by authorities for the sake of temple management efficiency.

 

Correct thing is to throw away offender and Krishna WILL come at the last minute usually as explained.

 

Just apply this principle to any situation in the temple, and you will come to see Krishna's hand like this.

 

Process of temple management is very simple, provided you keep reminding to yourself (president or any manager) that you are a servant and your service is to glue and organize the services of the others, that is ALL. And then people will respect you, no need of politics!!!

 

A person that has not this type of faith simply cannot run a temple, and no amount of material coaching will transform his consciousness to the mode of goodness.

 

It is a question of priorities, preaching first or money first, individual devotees spiritual well being first or sacrifice people for institution goals... the "town for a country" philosophy.

 

Dear GBCs, everything is there. just follow the simple program and do not create more concoctions: they are the ones giving you headaches!!!!

 

"Wages for sages" is in my view, like and advertising campaign, to help establishing a man made, (dharma projjita) materialistic religion.

 

Your servant,

 

Jagannatha Mishra dasa

[Sridas 0]

Jagganath Misra prabhu,

Ditto on your very lucid assesment, very much to the point!

 

Wages for sages put sages in gold cages for ages

 

Depend i.e.have faith in God and the devotees... you won't starve

If you are doing nice seva will you be thrown out on the street

Besides that the street is where Prabhupads sankirtan movement connects with the people. Was it not part of the motivating force when Srila Prabhupad arrived in America to preach with a very few bucks in his lungi or kirta wherever he put it.

With total dependence on Krsna he prayed, I don't know what you have sent me here for, but if it is your wish to help these people in the land of materialism, impersonalism and voidism then please utilize me in your service.

It is the sacrificial mood of our role models the Goswamis that cultivates faith that the Lord will not forsake us. He will protect us. If he is providing for zillions of living entities then will he neglect the needs of His surrendered servitors? There may be times when we strip down a little obesity but that will also be His mercy. God love the hungry too.

 

How many temple presidents on the order of their Guru are prepared to go to a foreign country and start a new temple from scratch, what to speak of a whole movement. not that we can imitate, nor clone Srila Prabhupads DNA. But it is the substance of the mood of his faith and dedication that has built this empire of bhakti.... that ain't buckti.

Srila Prabhupad was always impressed with the simple and austere attitude of St Francis of Assisi. A far cry from the the Vati-con or the Bis-con.

 

I have seen temple leaders with 35,000 Rs. cell phones. Where does that money come from? They collect it in the name of spiritual activity and then divide it as salaries.

 

As Jahnava Nitai Prabhu has touched on, this is the corruption of grace to disgrace. It will errode the foundations of any spiritual movement.

When the layman give their donations to what they believe is a good cause and it goes cent per cent to that which the collectors said it would then that will become sukriti and a subliminal feeling of trust will encourage more charitable contribution. This is Krsna's system....give and get. Maybe they'll donate a temple next and move in to become a devotee to boot.

 

But will people donate to a bramhachari on the street who is advertising it all goes to our seniors super-annuation fund, their childrens college education, wifes new sari and jewellry, or their high octane health program, their trips to that exotic land of India, maybe a brief sojourn in a villa on the way to de-stress, or perhaps I need a ghee and oil change at the latest Auryavedic health spa down in South India so I can stay at the top edge of m' devotional service.

Whatsmore how long can the bramhachari continue to sustain their fired up sincerity, before they sneak out the back door or conclude the TP has reached the goal of life, i.e being served with the best of everything from the congregation.

Of course if you are really serious just arrange for a condo outside the temple so's no one will cast any aspertions upon you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against yukta vairagya if it truly gets dovetailed to the centre, by all means if you have the adhikhara of a Sri Pundarika Vidyanidhi or Sri Ramananda Raya go for it, but just make sure y' got it.

 

[guruji 0]

It sounds good. providing salary to the priests is quite common. Priests are not saints or sanyasins. They do have faimily. They have to maintain it. In south Indian temples which are controlled by HR&CE the priests are covered by salary and having all retiral benefits in addition to having share in daily collection.Srila Prabhupada wants to keep the priests in a cheerful mood so that they can concentrate on their service without any diverion.

[Guest guest]

 

It sounds good. providing salary to the priests is quite common. Priests are not saints or sanyasins. They do have faimily. They have to maintain it. In south Indian temples which are controlled by HR&CE the priests are covered by salary and having all retiral benefits in addition to having share in daily collection.Srila Prabhupada wants to keep the priests in a cheerful mood so that they can concentrate on their service without any diverion.

 

Speculation! First of all read Prabhupada's instructions before you comment on this subject using his name.

 

South Indian temple priests have no spiritual knowledge and their goal of life is not perfection in Krishna consciousness. They don't read the bhagavad-gita or chant Hare Krishna. Just like you work for a company and get paid, those "priests" work and get paid. This has got nothing to do with devotional service. Better read Prabhupada's books before posting any of your comments on this subject.

[Guest guest]

If Prabhupada's instructions are not followed ISKCON will lose its potency and the devotees will be reduced to south indian temple priests who live in poverty.

 

Poverty, illfamy and all inauspicious things will befall ISKCON if Srila Prabhupada's instructions are not followed.

 

"I say straight that Kirtanananda is wrong and you are right when you say that the movement will come to nothing if I am not satisfied with your actions" - Srila Prabhupada, Letter to Damodara, October 13, 1967.

[Guest guest]

>>I view all this nostalgia for the good old days of Iskcon as being nonsense. Since Krsna consciousness is ever fresh if we find ourselves pinning away for the "good old days" we are just floating on the mental platform not factually in Krsna conscious.>>

 

Not all "old-timers" think they're advanced. Some "old-timers" know that they're not really devotees yet. And remembering the times when one was a tiny bit Krsna conscious or at least happy in the association of devotees is not necessarily "floating on the mental platform." Sometimes it's all we've got because things can get really hellish due to kaliyuga, the modes, karma and the present state of affairs. Thank you for sharing your memories. They made me happy to remember those days, even if they weren't perfect. You're good association.

[Guest guest]

I don't know why, but the last post ended up in the wrong thread.

[Sridas 0]

No worries it's just 'ole timers block'

 

We were just never meant for this techno logical world

 

Leave it to the young guns, see if they can do any better

 

It's just so much easier to chant and be happy

 

Still we're never satisfied and have a fascination for the techno wizardry

 

 

Do we think we're missing something

 

Not really, Krsna consciousness is self satisfying

 

Strange how this world changes

[Guest guest]

You suggested that guest read Prabhupada's books before making claims but you yourself go on to make radical claims about South Indian pirests without being fully aware of the facts. Admittedly, there are many priests in South India (especially most of them in demi-god temples) that use their position to make money but to claim that all of them are alike shows your ignorane. Remember, the term 'South Indian priests' includes the ones that serve in the great holy places such as Sri Rangam & Ahobilam and most of them are sincere devotees of the Lord.

 

 

Speculation! First of all read Prabhupada's instructions before you comment on this subject using his name.

 

South Indian temple priests have no spiritual knowledge and their goal of life is not perfection in Krishna consciousness. They don't read the bhagavad-gita or chant Hare Krishna. Just like you work for a company and get paid, those "priests" work and get paid. This has got nothing to do with devotional service. Better read Prabhupada's books before posting any of your comments on this subject.

[Sridas 0]

 

You suggested that guest read Prabhupada's books before making claims but you yourself go on to make radical claims about South Indian pirests without being fully aware of the facts. Admittedly, there are many priests in South India (especially most of them in demi-god temples) that use their position to make money but to claim that all of them are alike shows your ignorane. Remember, the term 'South Indian priests' includes the ones that serve in the great holy places such as Sri Rangam & Ahobilam and most of them are sincere devotees of the Lord.

 

It is true, it's a broad statement tarring all South Indian priests with the same brush, I think what our guest is saying is that if that precedent is set throughout the south it tends to be implemented everywhere with time, plus it may also effect other movements that don't espouse those values and that this isn't Srila Prabhupad's wish or instruction for his disciples and temples.

Many priests these days like in the west are merely ritualistic wedding celebrants, giving licence for legalized dacoitry.

There are no doubt many very pukka southern brahmins who keep a high standard of worship up. But with the influx of material wealth anywhere, even the most advanced devotees need to remain vigilant to their standard of sadhana otherwise they become vulnerable to corruption. When Srila Prabhupad left this world he hoped his disciples would aspire to the highest standards of purity and surrender possible so that he might see them all in the spiritual world, not to immerse themselves in the very thing that he preached against.

Also I have found that the goal of Sri Laxmi- Narayan in Vaikuntha is more prominent in the South, than the conception of Sri Sri Gauranga-Radha-Krishna worship which is Sri Sad Goswami and Sri Asta sakhi seva, as introduced in our Gaudiya sampradaya by Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur, which advocates a simple life like that of the Braja gopis or more recently the six Goswamis of Vrndavan, a life of non-attachment to wealth and opulence in the mood of awe and reverence. Whereas the Gaudiya teachings of Srila Saraswati Thakur are designed to cultivate complete surrender to Krsna if followed. Granted it isn't as easy for a Krsna devotee in this material world, but they are more than compensated with the inner wealth that a life of devotional service delivers.

Even the Goddess of fortune Srimati Laxmi devi wants what a simple Krsna bhakta has in their heart. Real devotees are internal, living in residences of jewells in chintamani dham, and yet they have no desire for touchstones that can produce mountains of gold. This is 'the higher taste' Prabhupad wanted us savour. The adornments of the soul laden with Radha Krsna prema.

And although Srila Prabhupad may well have the blessings and support of Laxmi Narayan to spread his mission it should'nt be confused that this sort of lifestyle is the goal or architype of his mission.

The Goswamis lived happily in their simple bhajan khutirs, songs of praise their treasure and all material wealth that came to them was invested in establishing beautiful places of worship for their Lordships, for the devotees and for the public to get some incentive to go back home to godhead.

 

I might add also that there is nothing wrong with external opulent devotional lifestyles if that is what a devotee thinks will attract others towards a progressive spiritual evolution, no problem. But that message shouldn't be mixed in the acharyas mission or temples to make out this is Srila Prabhupads desire or example, it wasn't. No one is the loser for following SP's program. Only by following will real opulence increase ad infinitum.

[suchandra 1]

 

I might add also that there is nothing wrong with external opulent devotional lifestyles if that is what a devotee thinks will attract others towards a progressive spiritual evolution, no problem. But that message shouldn't be mixed in the acharyas mission or temples to make out this is Srila Prabhupads desire or example, it wasn't. No one is the loser for following SP's program. Only by following will real opulence increase ad infinitum.

 

General Hindu understanding about what is brahmana, he should get paid for speaking the truth:

"He who gives instruction without getting something and he who takes instruction without giving something – bitter hatred grows between them, one of these two dies." (Utanka)

ISKCON's position is that a real brahmana has no problem to speak the truth while being paid for speaking the truth?

<!-- the top of the post, the background graphic gets applied here, and we truncate the title itself so it fits, in case of long post titles - title will still show the full title though --> Wages, Sages, and Social Welfare

 

<!-- end .post-top --> <!-- the main section of the post goes here --> By Sita Pati Das <!--Posted on--> Jul 23, 2007

 

 

On the subject of “devotee maintenance”, we have to continue to forge ahead with creating a proper social structure in ISKCON. We need to “redefine the classic concept of devotee maintenance”. We all need to start giving charity to brahmanas as a matter of duty.

One should never think that they are “maintaining” a brahmana.

The brahmanas are born of the head of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and are the representatives in human form of Lord Visnu. Through the mouth of the brahmana the Lord eats, and speaks.

Therefore by feeding the brahmana (including giving him money with which to purchase food), one feeds the Supreme Lord. But it is not that the Lord ‘”needs our dhal and chapatis”, rather we are afforded the opportunity to make an offering out of love, or out of duty.

Charity should be given to a brahmana at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and with the proper consciousness. We do not maintain the brahmana. The Supreme Lord maintains us all - nityo nityanam, cetanas cetananam / eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman, and the brahmana is His representative.

Brahmanas have six activities - studying scripture and teaching scripture, worshiping the Deity and teaching others to worship the Deity, accepting charity on behalf of the Supreme Lord and redistributing in charity.

The members of society should be trained and encouraged to offer charity to the brahmana for their own welfare. The Lord gains nothing from our sacrifice - He is the proprietor of everything - but we loosen our attachment to the false sense of ownership and misconception of the nature of this world by surrendering our so-called possessions to Him.

Because the income of a brahmana is decoupled from his activities, he is free to speak the truth without duress or bias. This is a such a valuable commodity in society that its worth cannot be overestimated. A brahmana speaks only the truth. Brahmanas adjudicate in disputes, give advice, and bring the qualities of clarity and honesty to the social body.

The brahmana is detached from the things that he is given. He understands that he must maintain the body that he is responsible for, as a service. Otherwise he is not an accumulator of wealth. Whatever is surplus to the requirements of his maintenance he will redistribute.

Now think about this: brahmanas represent something on the order of 5% of human society.

If the other 95% of human society gives 10% of their wealth to them, suddenly the brahmanas become some of the wealthiest people in the society. Because they are detached from the wealth and redistribute it as a duty, they are uniquely situated to give to those in need. It is said that brahmana must redistribute whatever he cannot use on the same day that he receives it. Therefore a perfect system of wealth redistribution and social welfare is created.

Krishna’s system for human civilization is perfect. Remember: you do not maintain a brahmana - it is your duty and a privilege to give him something in charity.

What’s a practical action step? Think long and hard about the brahminical qualities and activities (guna and karma), take advice from senior members in your community, and identify and give charity to a brahmana. Without attachment to the results. Do it for your own purification. The rest will follow.

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[Guest guest]

 

Now think about this: brahmanas represent something on the order of 5% of human society.

If the other 95% of human society gives 10% of their wealth to them, suddenly the brahmanas become some of the wealthiest people in the society. Because they are detached from the wealth and redistribute it as a duty, they are uniquely situated to give to those in need. It is said that brahmana must redistribute whatever he cannot use on the same day that he receives it. Therefore a perfect system of wealth redistribution and social welfare is created.

 

This is a veru nice but also very utopian (at least in the modern day Kali-yuga context) idea. Who decides who is a true brahmana for example? To tell you the truth, I see very, very few true brahmanas in Iskcon. Some of these are so hopelessly impractical with money that without the institution to support them they likely would never had a chance to act as brahmanas.

 

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There are thousands of religious institutions in the world today and most of them are far better run and far more effective than our organisations. We could learn a thing or two from them.

 

Devotees nowadays dont like to give money to the so called brahmanas because they dont trust them. It is that simple. There were far too many cases of financial shenanigans and abuses in our society to fall for any such simplistic ideas. Many (if not most) Iskcon leaders, gurus and sannyasis, do not provide full account of their finances and how donations received by them are utilized. How brahminical is that?

 

Iskcon so called brahmanas must first prove they are qualified by acting like real brahmanas. Then, and only then, will the rest of the devotee community feel inspired to support them.

[Guest guest]

This was and is my position ... nothing wrong in giving salary to Temple Presidents.

 

Times have changed and we have to move on.

[Guest guest]

Salaries for presidents and a stipend for everybody else. - come on. based on time and circumstance! What is good enough for the goose...

According to varnashrama, a temple president is a ksatriya - a varna in which opulence is allowed. But they are also brahmanas - which is a renounced caste. That's what happens when we tack Vedic culture on a community that is primarily Vaisnava. Brahamana because Vaisnava. Otherwise in Kali Yuga there is no chance.

[Guest guest]

You make sense but however, in the absence of a self-sustainable community, Temple Presidents have to be paid. We don't have the Varnasrama system in place.

 

 

Salaries for presidents and a stipend for everybody else. - come on. based on time and circumstance! What is good enough for the goose...

According to varnashrama, a temple president is a ksatriya - a varna in which opulence is allowed. But they are also brahmanas - which is a renounced caste. That's what happens when we tack Vedic culture on a community that is primarily Vaisnava. Brahamana because Vaisnava. Otherwise in Kali Yuga there is no chance.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Iskcon so called brahmanas must first prove they are qualified by acting like real brahmanas. Then, and only then, will the rest of the devotee community feel inspired to support them.

 

Sripad Kusakratha Prabhu never seemed to have any trouble getting just enough funds to print his books and tend to his basic maintenance. People were attracted to his brahminical qualities and gave him the charity he needed -- not to become a frivolous sense enjoyer but to devote his energies to his translations.

 

Surely there are some other examples like his. The point is that guru and Krishna will arrange that a true Vaishnava brahmana will be given adequate resources. But to actually be on that Vaishnava brahmana platform is very rare, and the idea, "I am a brahmana and should in an ideal world be supported by others' charity" is much more often the sign of a lazy lower-varna man than of a true Vaishnava brahmana.

[Guest guest]

 

This was and is my position ... nothing wrong in giving salary to Temple Presidents.

 

Times have changed and we have to move on.

 

"They should not be given ANY salary. That is VERY BAD. This is AGAINST PRINCIPLE" - Srila Prabhupada talking about salaries in ISKCON.

 

Look it up and learn.

[Guest guest]

 

You make sense but however, in the absence of a self-sustainable community, Temple Presidents have to be paid. We don't have the Varnasrama system in place.

What does self-sustainable have to do with president-sustainable? The LA Temple makes over $40,000 a week. This warrants a salary? Why?

[Guest guest]

 

If Prabhupada's instructions are not followed ISKCON will lose its potency and the devotees will be reduced to south indian temple priests who live in poverty.

 

Poverty, illfamy and all inauspicious things will befall ISKCON if Srila Prabhupada's instructions are not followed.

 

"I say straight that Kirtanananda is wrong and you are right when you say that the movement will come to nothing if I am not satisfied with your actions" - Srila Prabhupada, Letter to Damodara, October 13, 1967.

The movement is turning into a vast Indian cultural center - but at least in America the Indian community is fairly well off.

[ksbh 0]

I suggest you follow your own advice and do some learning first.

 

It's not like ISKCON has hordes of young men lining up to become Brahmacaries and temple presidents. We just have to make the best of a bad bargain.

 

Under the circumstances, I see nothing wrong with salaries to Temple Presidents.

 

 

"They should not be given ANY salary. That is VERY BAD. This is AGAINST PRINCIPLE" - Srila Prabhupada talking about salaries in ISKCON.

 

Look it up and learn.

[ksbh 0]

It does seem to be heading that way. I hope more young Americans will step up and take to this movement and we can hopefully curb that trend.

 

 

The movement is turning into a vast Indian cultural center - but at least in America the Indian community is fairly well off.