Priitaa

And what makes you think us 'western' devotee women are any different? I agree that no man should have tapped her on the shoulder, but there are many men who are new to Krishna consciousness and don't know any better -- yet. They will! We are a preaching movment and aren't about to disallow new men from moving in for this reason. I think this you will understand, and hope she will too. When we understand the mood of preaching, we can raise our tolerance level and not take it so personally. Therefore you don't facutally know and can only speculate. This is another topic and not about how to be Krishna conscious but how woman and man should or should not behave toward each other, and while idealistically that sounds great, I have seen too much abuse go on due to a submissive wife, so lets stick with the topic at hand. Maybe, but its still speculation. Oh, more than sounding sexist. It "is" a sexist statement. ha Oddly, it is the Western women that actually move into the ashrama due to strong philosphical interest and a desire to hear and learn philosophy regularly. In kali yuga a person can no longer evaluate who should act like what (or in accordance to gender), but must look at their jyotish astrological chart and see who is philosopher, who is simple woman. Right. However, I do not see philosophy about Krishna as a distraction, unless you mean a distraction away from the bodily concept. In wihch case you are right, we are working very hard to 'forget' we are man or woman. Exactly. We are in agreement over the unlimited fanatical classes often given in ISKCON, which is why I walk out the door after Prabhupada's purport is read. But when it comes to Kirtana, she needs to realize its not about culture, Prabhupada gave us something transcendental. Lord Caitanya was dancing and jumping in the streets! So like anyone else, she needs to give up the parts of her past culture that are not in synch to the highest ones. I'd like to know more about this one! What do you classify as Bollywood music, and where are devotees listening to it? In the temple? {quote]The list goes on and on. I have repeatedly been embarassed by the behavior of ISKCON devotees in this regard. I once went to a wedding party between two ISKCON congregational members (not initiated), although it was heavily planned by the bride's brother who was initiated. There was so much dancing to Bollywood music, {/quote] Again, please clarify what is Bollywood music? Is it music used in Hindu movies that we would classify as kirtans? Or is it some other type of music? Because if it is just a wild kirtana, that is part of what Lord Chaitanya taught! We dont tell women to stand there like a stick with their hands at their side, but they get to dance to the Lords Holy Names. This is the time to forget we are the body, at least for this short while, and enter into transcendence, as much as possible anyway. But I would like to know what you call Bollywood music? Your wife? Is this woman your wife? I do have compassion and interest in your problem, and would like to help, but what you are criticizing is not yet clear. Maybe I can help you once I find out if you just call our more outward preaching energy and preaching mission to be disturbing because it is different from your past culture, or if their is something genuinely wrong going on.

Thiest, I agree with this! Especially in Alachua lately, as I go there once in a while, the front of the temple is usually paying attention, but in the back it beomcomes social hour. Even, it can seep up front! This is different from what I was talking about in my last post, and I too get annoyed with it! As for the room with sound piped in, I agree, but it seldom is maintained by the men who have to maintain it. I have sat in dirty laundry rooms and all sorts of corners to hear class without going inside. And even 'that' eventually broke down and no one fixed it. Once they had lectures over low band radio (so no one else would complain) and it was great! Any mata could hear class. But that quickly fell apart. So, if they want the women and the children not to disturb, they have to provide facility, it should also be clean facility, and it should be maintained. I wish you were not avoiding the temple tho. I go when I can and the things I dont like, I just leave before they start, or when they start. Whichever happens first.

Thiest, I agree with this! Especially in Alachua lately, as I go there once in a while, the front of the temple is usually paying attention, but in the back it beomcomes social hour. Even, it can seep up front! This is different from what I was talking about in my last post, and I too get annoyed with it! As for the room with sound piped in, I agree, but it seldom is maintained by the men who have to maintain it. I have sat in dirty laundry rooms and all sorts of corners to hear class without going inside. And even 'that' eventually broke down and no one fixed it. Once they had lectures over low band radio (so no one else would complain) and it was great! Any mata could hear class. But that quickly fell apart. So, if they want the women and the children not to disturb, they have to provide facility, it should also be clean facility, and it should be maintained. I wish you were not avoiding the temple tho. I go when I can and the things I dont like, I just leave before they start, or when they start. Whichever happens first.

Well, the definition of mythology used by you may make it fit in the category of myth, and Hinduism for sure is not an ancient religion and not found in any ancient Sanskrit Vedic literature. This we can agree upon. But Rama really existed, Krishna really existed, Deity worship "when" followed according to ancient Vedic instructions and in relationship to the Supreme One God and not demi-gods -- there is no myth there. Matter of fact, one "can" worship demi-gods and it is real. The outcome, that is another story. But they are real persons and someone on earth can connect to someone in the heavens (demi-gods) if they want. But the results will not be the same as going to God/Krishna Himself. One should go directly to the Supreme Persnality of Godhead. Anyway, that the word "Hindu" or "Hinduism" is not to be found in ancient text does mitigate everything else which actually 'is' found in ancient text. In Krishna consciousness, as presented by Srila Prabhupada, we do "not" practice Hinduism. That is why some of our answers to questions on these forums are different than an answer is from Hinduism would be. You may or may not know this. I can't tell since no one is singing their name anymore. I dont know who wrote what, or who believes what, or who knows what. So please pardon any redundance I may have made.

Probably nothing I say will make a difference, but Krishna also does not support idol worship. Anyone who is not properly taking care of the Deity of God is engaging in idol worship, or if they themselves are rascals, this would also apply. Jesus criticized the caste brahmana's at RathaYatra because of alcohol and sins of the flesh, Lord Jagannatha had not entered the Deity in the first place. As far as quotes from the Bible, while there may be something to some of them, just the smallest bit of research will quickly turn up how the Bible has been drastically changed by man. Even the verse you use above, scholars have explained his original words were that no man cometh to the Father except by a 'method' like his. Jesus spoke Aramic, and too often we use the King James version or others, which are either Greek -to -English translation, which makes it all become very complicated to get to the roots of what he originally said. And then there is the well-known fact (well known to anyone who looks) that Paul changed much of Christ's teachings for the sake of making converts. Anyhow, even if Aramic-to-English is found and used, the many councils and meetings the Church had to change the words of the Bible have long ago taken hold and now go as the real Bible, when it is not. Drastic changes have been made. But hear what you wish to hear. Good luck! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh, I see. You are in the midst of something personal. Well, you can try. But after informing people and they still reject, even argue, its pretty hopeless as people see what they want to see. Good luck.

Now this, we can agree on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Not only do we have to take care of ourselves at the temple, but even keep an eye out for our chlidren so no one ummmmm exploits them either. Sad, but drastic measures are called for during drastic times. Its kali yuga, after all.

Now this, we can agree on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Not only do we have to take care of ourselves at the temple, but even keep an eye out for our chlidren so no one ummmmm exploits them either. Sad, but drastic measures are called for during drastic times. Its kali yuga, after all.

Thiest, I was agreeing until we got to this quote. Talk to me when you have kids! lol That is, you have no idea what its like to try to follow Prabhupada's idea of raising them in the temple, so you bring them to class with a coloring book to keep them quiet, then you are told not to let them color. So you get rid of the coloring book and they start running around. You engage them in a quiet game and someone complains about that. You move to the back and they go in and out the back door that, tho its a noise, its not very loud and would only bother those with bad nerves, or other things. I remember the time Ramesvara insisted that the mother put their hand over the childs mouth the second the child even appeared to make a sound, then take them out. So as they grew older we ended up with all these kids with emotional problems cuz they had a hand glued to thier mouth cuz no 'monk' or those who are suppose to be exhibiting spiriutal qualities including tolerance, could handle hearing a child's sounds. (And they wonder why so many householders quite attending.) I also can't help but wonder how much of that is from the sound and how much is just a dislike of children. Not saying this about you, just in general. I could go on, but you can see how there are reasons and various points of view why these things go on in the temple room. I always say, if ya want the least amount of interruptions, sit up front. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thiest, I was agreeing until we got to this quote. Talk to me when you have kids! lol That is, you have no idea what its like to try to follow Prabhupada's idea of raising them in the temple, so you bring them to class with a coloring book to keep them quiet, then you are told not to let them color. So you get rid of the coloring book and they start running around. You engage them in a quiet game and someone complains about that. You move to the back and they go in and out the back door that, tho its a noise, its not very loud and would only bother those with bad nerves, or other things. I remember the time Ramesvara insisted that the mother put their hand over the childs mouth the second the child even appeared to make a sound, then take them out. So as they grew older we ended up with all these kids with emotional problems cuz they had a hand glued to thier mouth cuz no 'monk' or those who are suppose to be exhibiting spiriutal qualities including tolerance, could handle hearing a child's sounds. (And they wonder why so many householders quite attending.) I also can't help but wonder how much of that is from the sound and how much is just a dislike of children. Not saying this about you, just in general. I could go on, but you can see how there are reasons and various points of view why these things go on in the temple room. I always say, if ya want the least amount of interruptions, sit up front. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You read my mind exactly. Again, I am in agreement. All this fault finding in the name of being right, especially when it becomes excessive is related to the false ego. It has more of a negative preaching effect anyway. This does not help them, but does create a war. We don't want to create war. We want to find a way to help every single soul we can. And those we can't, get out of their way. Besdies, Prabhupada always encouraged.

In answer to your question, "What's going on?" it could be that Mars is retrograding closer toward earth that it ever has in recorded history of over 5.000 years and unrecorded history is suspected to be around 30,000! However, I agree that if we only would chant the Lords Holy Names, if we went out on Harinama for example, we could have a significant effect. We did this in the late 70s and Prabhupada said we stopped WW III for starting, twice!

Not all of a sudden. Long ago from Srila Prabupada.

In its proper place its nice, yes. But this thread had nothing to do with sahajiyas. To chastize the devotees here for something they did not do, isn't wise. This tread was not about what anyone else thinks should be the standard of a preacher, but what the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada has instructed about who should preach.

I think you are referring to my quote, but I did not say she "should" speak up. What I said was I hope she did not feel so much shame or guilt that she would not speak up about it. Right. Depends upon your definition of what "properly" brought up means. The fact that nearly all Hindus girls are taught to keep quiet on this topic, that is not proper but dysfunctional training. It allows men to continue getting away with it too. Add to that, more often than not the girl is blamed if she does speak up, is called low names, or that she deserved it, or she was flirting with him, etc, etc. This is also why Hindu girls do not speak up. And also why such men continue to get away with it further. When thats possible its one solution. When its not possible, she is left witout too many other options, especially since a 'proper' Hindu girl must not speak up. I dont know what makes you think there is anything chaste OR Vedic about women supressing inappropriate touch, which is a crime. It has nothing to do with being westerinized, thats just an excuse to sound better than us, as well as encourage this tpye of repression, which can result in emotinal illness.

I think you are referring to my quote, but I did not say she "should" speak up. What I said was I hope she did not feel so much shame or guilt that she would not speak up about it. Right. Depends upon your definition of what "properly" brought up means. The fact that nearly all Hindus girls are taught to keep quiet on this topic, that is not proper but dysfunctional training. It allows men to continue getting away with it too. Add to that, more often than not the girl is blamed if she does speak up, is called low names, or that she deserved it, or she was flirting with him, etc, etc. This is also why Hindu girls do not speak up. And also why such men continue to get away with it further. When thats possible its one solution. When its not possible, she is left witout too many other options, especially since a 'proper' Hindu girl must not speak up. I dont know what makes you think there is anything chaste OR Vedic about women supressing inappropriate touch, which is a crime. It has nothing to do with being westerinized, thats just an excuse to sound better than us, as well as encourage this tpye of repression, which can result in emotinal illness.

Well of course your path is your path. But in life, if one has not taken shelter of a bona fide guru, then in death they will be on their own too. And yes, I notice you keep saying that loudy. You must be new here. There is no need to yell, as devotees are very philosophical and not bereft of knowledge. They/we know this. That is not the concern. The point is one must accept a qualified guru and then surrender unto him. Then the guru can enlighten you instead of you just having to guess at what is real and what is not - what is bona fide scripture and what is not, which are accurate translations and which are altered by man, who is genuine saint and who is not, etc. Don't take shelter of a conditioned soul or you will only end up with conditional solutions. And I don't recall anyone saying anything about the glories of organized religion. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That last post was from me. Sorry, thought I was logged in.

That last post was from me. Sorry, thought I was logged in.

There is much evidence that Jesus lived and left his body in Kashmir India. Japan, I doubt it. I can't get into it now, but the evidence is mounting! Makes sense for a devotee of Krishna.

There is much evidence that Jesus lived and left his body in Kashmir India. Japan, I doubt it. I can't get into it now, but the evidence is mounting! Makes sense for a devotee of Krishna.

LOL Yes, that would not work. ha All we need to do really, is be able to defeat them philosophically. We have been tarined like this in temples, so I guess it just stuck for most of us, or usually. You can do it too at home, just read Prabhupada's books and then its soooooooooo easy to give them quotes, etc., to disproves any nonsense you may run across. Do you need any links? The one at the top of my head is: http://www.asitis.com Thats a Bhagavad-gita link. And I can proivde more if you just let me know.

I realize you are sincere, and may be at a loss for words too. But a person isn't mentally ill simply because they have a different opinion then yours. If a doctor were to examine them, they would prove you wrong and that would defeat your purpose. I think you may merely need to study Prabupada's books further, and in time you will know what to say to these people.

Haribol Thiest, Thank you for the kind words. It is encouraging that devotees are using sense control to sort out this, or any issue really. From what I have read on these forums so far, and anyone feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, is that most Hindus do not accept Jesus and even feel animosity toward him; whereas devotees of Srila Prabhupada (leaving out politics here) who have read his books have a more peaceful and clearer understanding? Anyway, Prabhupada's books are pure and within them he repatedly refers to Jesus as a Vaisnava. We therefore must be careful not to make any offenses to Jesus. We dont have to convert to respect. (Nor do I think Jesus, a Vaisnava, would want us to convert!) It is the fanatical Christians who are the real source of the problem. They have changed Christ's original teachings. I have one book which I received from an author online who gave countless evidence that Jesus visited, and eventually moved to India. This book is called "Saving the Savior." I wondered why he gave it that title. The short answer is that three people have had visions of Jesus asking them to correct or clean up his teachings, that they have been contaminated! Now I am not one quick to jump on the 'visoin bandwagon,' ha, but as I read the details, it did not sound cheap. Each of these persons lived in different areas, did not know of the other, and not of each other's vision either, had 'essentially' the same one. Even the vision seemed more real and not very airy fairy. So what was that vision? From memory (I dont feel like dragging out the book), one person saw a man rise up out of a deep mud hole. This man was covered with, of course, mud. But as they looked closer, you guess it, this was Jesus. And he said to them to please clean him off, that he has become dirtied due to misrepresentation of his teachings. So he wanted this person to cleanse him/his philosophy. Interestingly, this happened to two other people, and one was the wife of the author of this book! Folks can take this or leave it, as it is secondary even for me, as my belief in Jesus is based upon Prabhupada's books. However, because he has said over and over that Jesus was a saktyavesa avatara, I next accept these visions, to a reasonable degree. Especially since I know how messed up the Bible is!

Yes, very strict instructions have been given and should be not only followed, but maintained. I remember when I first joined and was told never to touch the opposite gender. At first I thought it was fanatical. Once on Harinama I 'thought' I saw a devotee tap a brahmacari on the shoulder to ask him something. Later I needed something too. Forget what, but it genuinely was needed. So I also tapped a brahmacari on the shoulder, and boy did I get n trouble! ha My reply? "But Vishaka just did it?" They said "No, she used a kartal to touch him with." Ahhh so THAT'S the trick! Initially I could not see a practial way to apply this rule when in life you needed to take care of some business. But this simple solution resolved it. As far as initially seeing it as fanatical, I gave that up eon's ago. And with all the sexual abuse that goes on, it is an excellent and important rule! I do hope the original poster will explain a little more and does not feel any shame or guilt, or that they should not speak up about this topic.