Priitaa

Yes, very strict instructions have been given and should be not only followed, but maintained. I remember when I first joined and was told never to touch the opposite gender. At first I thought it was fanatical. Once on Harinama I 'thought' I saw a devotee tap a brahmacari on the shoulder to ask him something. Later I needed something too. Forget what, but it genuinely was needed. So I also tapped a brahmacari on the shoulder, and boy did I get n trouble! ha My reply? "But Vishaka just did it?" They said "No, she used a kartal to touch him with." Ahhh so THAT'S the trick! Initially I could not see a practial way to apply this rule when in life you needed to take care of some business. But this simple solution resolved it. As far as initially seeing it as fanatical, I gave that up eon's ago. And with all the sexual abuse that goes on, it is an excellent and important rule! I do hope the original poster will explain a little more and does not feel any shame or guilt, or that they should not speak up about this topic.

This part I will essentially agree with. However, this part I cannot agree with because there should never be name callilng. The minute we name call, we not only have lost control over our anger/senses, but intelligent conversation goes down the drain and others start to name call also. So let's leave that part out, then with clam minds, we can prove our point even better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LE, I certianly do not pretend to knoow all the answers here, just one thing came to mind when you asked what to tell them and that they are not so inclined toward Krishna consciousness. So I thought, if it were me, I would tell them that he has only gone somewhere else (or 'going'), and tho we will be sad and miss him, he's not gone, just elsewhere. Because this is true, and I think any religion will have no problem with it presented that way or similar. I second the Rosary idea. And prasadam, including water for sprinkling if needbe. Please take care of you too. I myself don't do too well with death, and have a hard time when someone I know, or heard of and respect, passes over. But each time I receive some realization out of it. Not saying this is the recommened process, only thats what it has left to offer. Anyway, the knowingness and not just belief that this soul is eternal is something I have always found helpful. But especially, its important to take care of yourself at such a stressful time. Wishing you well.

Its not a bad question to ask and if someone touched her inappropriately, she should be encouraged to speak about it. But I can't give much more advice than that without knowing at least a little more about it.

Its not a bad question to ask and if someone touched her inappropriately, she should be encouraged to speak about it. But I can't give much more advice than that without knowing at least a little more about it.

The Vedas are not dead against Christ, as mentioned in the last long post. But the Vedas must be learned from a pure deovtee to properly understand them, purely. While I believe Jesus was a Vaisnava, was mentioned in the Vedas, and that no sensible Vaisnava should make offenese toward him, what I don't understand is the purpose of the long lecture post, which omits Krishna. To clarify, IMHO Jesus was a pure devotee of Krishna, but he did *not* preach separate from his Father. Now that we know who his Father is, we should not present Christianty as separate from Krishna consciousness.

The minute you make wife the disciple, the relationship is in big trouble. All I can say is I know the women best since I am one, and husbands are on an equal level. That's as far as I want to go into this. (I only mention it because we are giving advice to a new devotee of the householder ashrama and I dont believe we should suggest things which we have repeatedly found out did not work for us. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything. What others do in their homes, is their business and I really am not concerned over.)

The minute you make wife the disciple, the relationship is in big trouble. All I can say is I know the women best since I am one, and husbands are on an equal level. That's as far as I want to go into this. (I only mention it because we are giving advice to a new devotee of the householder ashrama and I dont believe we should suggest things which we have repeatedly found out did not work for us. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything. What others do in their homes, is their business and I really am not concerned over.)

Do not drag anyone anywhere. Force almost always works in exactly the opposite direction we wish the person to go into. I have seen this problem before, and while what I am about to tell you does not always work, it very often works. First, she is all ready into yoga. You are half way there! /images/graemlins/smile.gif So don't worry too much. Secondly, is she vegetarian? If she is, you are even further down the raod. Less to worry about. Now, if you avoid fanaticism (as I think the previous poster mentioned) and just 'show' her the results of practicing Bhakti Yoga, often the spouse says "Hey, "I'm missing out. I want those nice qualities too!" Just leave the more mellow, little books about Krishna consciousness around the house. DONT ask her if she read them. At first she will know thats why you are doing it. But in time it will be obvious that this is part of your life, and part of who you are. Sooner or later she will read them all on her own. When we come to realizaiton on our own, it sticks! So just make things available to her, surround her with them, but never shove anything down her throat. Sometimes the best preaching is what 'appears' to be no preaching. It actually is preaching, but it starts with us having to control our senses, increase tolerance, not fall down, and 'wait' while they gradually become opened to Krisna consciousness. If she is not irritated by your chanting, then its ok to chant around her and even beneficial. But if it makes her annoyed, or if she silently increases her stance, then dont chant around her. Also, find out 'why' she is not so interested in Krishna consciousness, because we here on these message boards can answer almost any question she has! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Since she is more into yoga, and this is just a suggestion, but you may try calling Krishna conscoiusness Bhakti yoga, because it is! She may feel more comfortable with those words. You just become the good example, humanly of course, and in time she is going to want the learn how to develop the qualities you have. When she asks, "How were you able to respond so mellow over yada yada when I just about wanted to blow up in their face?" Ahhhh There is your opportunity! BUT only if she is open to it. This is always they key, always. Stop the minute she appears to shut down. There will always be another day.

Do not drag anyone anywhere. Force almost always works in exactly the opposite direction we wish the person to go into. I have seen this problem before, and while what I am about to tell you does not always work, it very often works. First, she is all ready into yoga. You are half way there! /images/graemlins/smile.gif So don't worry too much. Secondly, is she vegetarian? If she is, you are even further down the raod. Less to worry about. Now, if you avoid fanaticism (as I think the previous poster mentioned) and just 'show' her the results of practicing Bhakti Yoga, often the spouse says "Hey, "I'm missing out. I want those nice qualities too!" Just leave the more mellow, little books about Krishna consciousness around the house. DONT ask her if she read them. At first she will know thats why you are doing it. But in time it will be obvious that this is part of your life, and part of who you are. Sooner or later she will read them all on her own. When we come to realizaiton on our own, it sticks! So just make things available to her, surround her with them, but never shove anything down her throat. Sometimes the best preaching is what 'appears' to be no preaching. It actually is preaching, but it starts with us having to control our senses, increase tolerance, not fall down, and 'wait' while they gradually become opened to Krisna consciousness. If she is not irritated by your chanting, then its ok to chant around her and even beneficial. But if it makes her annoyed, or if she silently increases her stance, then dont chant around her. Also, find out 'why' she is not so interested in Krishna consciousness, because we here on these message boards can answer almost any question she has! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Since she is more into yoga, and this is just a suggestion, but you may try calling Krishna conscoiusness Bhakti yoga, because it is! She may feel more comfortable with those words. You just become the good example, humanly of course, and in time she is going to want the learn how to develop the qualities you have. When she asks, "How were you able to respond so mellow over yada yada when I just about wanted to blow up in their face?" Ahhhh There is your opportunity! BUT only if she is open to it. This is always they key, always. Stop the minute she appears to shut down. There will always be another day.

With all due respect, Prabhupada did not say: "Unless One is a Pure Devotee He Should Not Become A Preacher. " What he said was: "Unless one is SITUATED as pure Vaisnava in his dealing, in his behavior, inside and outside, he should not become a preacher because it will not be effective, neither one should hear from such person." I remember when I first joined, and at the point where I realized the devotees were not pure devotees. Then someone told me of a letter Srila Prabhupad wrote which said we were all pure devotees. How can that be? I knew for a fact the struggles 'countless' devotees were going through. Then I read the letter and it was clarified. He did not say we had all ready achieved the level of pure devotee, what he said was that because we were chanting 16 rounds daily, because we were strictly following all four of the regulative principles, because we were rising early and attending the morning program, going out and preaching (!) during the day, and in the evening attending the evening aroti, etc., for THESE reasons, we were therefore pure deovtees. In other words, we were properly SITUATED. Not all ready there. And he went on to say something to the effect that it was only time separating us. Sorry, I don't have the letter now, but thats's what it said. So, there are no contradiciton within Prabhupada's words. It just takes time for us fallen human's to understand the pure devotee.

I am not speaking from sentiment at all, but fact. You say you were there. When was that? What year and waht temple? Did you actually live ON temple property or come to Sunday Feasts? Or if you lived at the temple, were you a householder or a brahmacari? How many chlidren did you have in gurukula? Being philosophical is not an excuse to be hardhearted, or heard headed for that matter. :-) Do you know what its like to be told you must do yada yada or your child can't go to gurukula? Spouse can't eat? That if you dont do this or that, you will get kicked out and since we all renounced our parents (or close to it) we had no where to go? I all ready understand that if we follow the wrong persons consequences will follow. But you are speaking from current days. Back then, and if you were there you should know this, NO ONE in a position of authoirty was considered a wrong person. That was instead considered an offense and sometimes you would even be ostricized for making such a statement. And then you had even more trouble with rent or food or gurukula bills, etc. What to speak of medical care. Getting into the topic of guur's is something else and not the intent of this thread. They were not even guru's when all this nonsense took place. The various authorities who had positions of authority at the time, were. And they had a LOT of power. They were therefore unqualified autohrities because they misused that power. The same applies to the topic you are brining up about the 'label' ISKCON. It was not what this thread was about. If you want to talk about that we can. I am not in ingorance and fully knowledgeable about these things. But my purpose here was very clear from the start. Lets not change the threads sbuject matter. Even the adult children don't blame their parents, and so anyone who did not go thru it, should not place the blame there, or really, judge it in any way. Not that what happened was ok, it was not. Everyone knows that. But I can tell you are not a parent simply by the way you are responding. All parents were trying to get heard, being ignored, and the focal point was the children. But where to palce the blame is a whole other topic and only those who had children or were the children are qualified to speak. There are exceptions, but that is the general rule of thumb, especially over such an intense topic that effects large numbers of devotees on a deep and sensitive level.

I don't know what Gita you are reading, but the original was not written in Hindi, but in Sanskrit. Which you also probalby cant read. :-) However, Srila Prabhupada has so kindly translated it perfectly for us into English, as he is a pure devotee and therefore does not change one word. If you would like to read an online version of it, go to: http://www.asitis.com

No way. Mathematically it may sounds good, but were you there? Do you know what it was like to live under those times? How old are you? Do you have children yet? Nothing personal, but many of those devotees are my friends and I have heard from them repeatedly take the guilt (and shame!) on their head when I have to remind them they were 'surrendering,' and so it was not so much their fault. I am not letting parents off the hook totally, but if you know the real definition of surrender, you will understand how little choice or control they had left. -- And the last thing any of those parents need is to come here and read such a judgment about them.

Interesting topic. I agree there are many benefits of children who grew up in the East. I was under the impression we were suppose to incorporate that mood with our children in ISKCON, but what began to happen was the result of greedy adults (not parents). Too many children born in the moevement have a sense of insecurity because they HAD to give up their room, their bed, nearly their presence or role in the home, had to give up TOO MUCH to the varoius adults, from sanyasis to other 'authorities.' A child can only give away, when they have. Many devotee children in the movement all too often did not have. It became a matter of a sense of security for our kids. I came to the point where I would not "let" anyone take my childrens room or move in even for a day or two. I did that when they were little, but it soon began to take its toll. Because the children were never considered very important in our movement and even something/one to be neglected at best. I think that article is more meant to be a comparrison to the nondevotee spoiled children in the West (which is not to say all children of the west are spoiled), than the gurukuli, IMHO anyway. But it IS interesting and something we should strive for. Maybe the next generation? I dont know. My kid will give a drink and cookie/etc. to a visitor, would sit in the same room and talk to them or listen to what they had to say. And sometimes they will still give the shirt off their back. However, overall I wonder when it is healthy and when it is a loss of boundaries from religious shame and guilt. Slightly different topic, but I suspect the reason we 'ask' in the west if someone wants a drink or treat before giving it to them is because quite often the recipient actually doesn't want one! And then they feel they must eat it or the giver will get offended, and they do get offended.

I just saw your other post, Babru. First I must clarify, I am rather tired of women and children's rights or rather, abuse, put in the same category as homosexuality. I do understand you are open minded so my comment here is not limited to you, but applies everywhere. For example, even now I see the Episcapalian (sp?) church wanting to make acceptable their first gay bishop. In one speech on the topic I heard a connection made to acceptance of women as bishops, and now gay bishops. Its not in the same category at all! Homosexuality is a broken body, and being a woman or child is not. You or others dont have to agree with me its about a broken body, but show me in shastra or else any comment by Prabhupada where it says to be gay is normal and healthy. However, please dont misunderstand. I do not wish any harm come to them. Prabhupada built a house anyone can take shelter in. (Directly or indirectly.) But they are trying to make a third gender acceptable and that is where I draw the line. And its totally against Prabhupada's teachings. I thought it was pretty clear. Anyone who is not biased would understand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Ok, so you support them. That's fine, but I feel you are just well meaning for their soul. However, they are pushing for these other 'rights' which I pointed out in my previous posts and here, but if clarification is needed: marriage is one. And yes, I do say they are politicians, but not meant as 'evil' politician. Simply they initially indicated they are out to do one thing, when in time they proved they were out to do something else. Allow me to explain. They use to claim they were merely trying to help those who are gay to start chanting again, or get back into devotional service, etc. Whereas now they are preaching about homosexual marriages and varoius other things to make this third gender normal and acceptable. And its true that I make such statements without a lot of research. I dont need to. They prove it for me. Just take a visit to chakra. There is a major difference between helping someone get their spiriutal life together, and their love life. I dont feel they are horrible people at all, just that they need to get their priorities straight, as well as stop trying to modify Prabhupada's teachings to fit their problem and artificially make themselves all right. You know as well as I do that if Prabhupada were here, he would never authoritize such a group.

Babru, Oh, my comment was not about yours. I agreed with yours as well. If a person posts it, they need to not loose it when they get replies they dont like. Is the administrator telling us NOT to talk about this topic? I am not sure if a previous post is from the administrator or not. If so, I don't see how we can even get onto the trail of clearing up problems, if we are told to only talk about Krishna and not about problems. Reminds me of the old days - ha - but not the positive things. Remember? Everyone would say "Just be Krishna conscious prabhu." And that was suppose to make problems go away. But of course it didnt. They just festered and got bigger. So no offeense to the administrator, if its from him, just pointing out something he may not have considered. (Tho I had not realized it has been repeatedly discussed on this forum. )

Personally I don't mind that you posted it here if it helps to shed some honest light on the subject. It has been not talking which caused more trouble in the movement than talking has. As different devotees post different information, ultimatley what Prabhupada really wanted will be uncovered. I just don't expect any major changes as a result. Maybe over time.

Matsya Avatara sounds like the incarnation you are speaking of. And Garuda is Lord Vishnu's carrier, yes. Some stories can be found at http://www.krishnabook.com You will probably enjoy that site! /images/graemlins/smile.gif YS, Prtha dd

K- You are in a mood of debate. Your "this should be obvious" comment is evidence of it, especially since I all ready pointed out that I had not taken apart the chapters of the Gita "you" mentioned. Please try to hear instead of tearing apart posts. Good luck. YS, Prtha dd

I don't want to get into your overall debate, but just this one point.... I don't know what version of the Gita you are reading, and it is nice you can read original Sanskrit, but we all know that so many will translate it differently from the next. That is why it is important to read it "As It Is," or translated by a pure devotee, otherwise we only get our own materially influenced understandings as per the teacher who first taught us Sanskrit for example. Anyway, no offense intended. In Prabhupada's Gita we read repatedly where Krishna emphasizes Himself as the goal. I have not torn those particular chapters apart, but I know that this is a major point in the purest of the pure translations. So please give Prabhupada's words on this a place. Thanks for loaning an ear. YS, Prtha dd

Oops, I realized much of my last post may have appeared to single out the poster named "god," which was not my intent. I merely wanted to comment on the topics brought up and not the various persons who may have posted them. After all, most of us are inclined to change our minds sometimes when new, significant information presents itself. Or we may not, but no intent here to single anyone out. YS, Prtha dd

This topic certainly has taken off. Right, no ISKCON authority reads these boards and if by chance they do, they don't give a darn. Right, There are no homosexuals in Goloka Vrndavana. Nor are any heterosexuals engaging in mundane sex there. The idea is to become qualified so we all CAN get there. Prabhupada initiated homosexuals, therefore how can we even indicate he should not have? So the idea is to give up sinful activity. Realistically of course, there will be falldown, but there is a difference between falldown and making something acceptable. That is where GALVA goes wrong. They are trying to make it acceptable and change the philosophy. If GALVA originated just to help those with this type of "broken body" return to devotional service, as they claim they have brought some back to chanting and such, that would be fine. But if you read between the lines, and lately not even between the lines, this is NOT their goal. Their goal is to make a third gender acceptable, to make marriage of homosexuals normal, and so on, within DEVOTEE society. That is 100% bogus and we do not see even one example of Prabhupada making such allowances. Be careful not to fall for the party line of GALVA. They are good politicians and make it sound like they just want to hear, chant and go to the temple like everyone else. But they want other things too, and they are things which are contrary to Prabhupada's teacihngs. Or maybe they actually mean "like" everybody else - making it acceptable. But they are not like everybody else and need to accept that theselves. While I dont believe a homosexual can change, instead of trying to change us they need to be more honestly accepting of their birth in this life, deal with it, and own their sexual preference as a problem rather than ok. From there it will be easier to work on purification. And yes, the person who started this topic may need to think twice before posting such things, or expecting it to be resolved here. However, Prabhupada made it simple. Everyone had to strictly follow the 4 regs meaning no illicit sex, and no homosexual was to continue homosexual activities. That was that. But now that he's not here to face, so many alterations to his pure teachings are going on in every corner, not just this one. I feel for the new devotee. Most of them are going to have a hard time uncovering what Prabhupada actually taught. YS, Prtha dd

The fact is, Prabhupada did initiate homosexuals, knowingly in many cases. The fact is, he expected homosexuals to give up their activities and follow the 4 regulative principles. The fact is, too many straight devotees have put down homosexuals to such a point that many of them have felt unwelcomed, depressed, and returned to their homosexual behavior. The fact is, most straight householders do not want a homosexual couple living next door to them while they are raising their children, and they should not have to. The fact is, many devotees who are gay or lesbian want to make a third gender acceptable, and there is no where such a thing can be found in shastra OR any exception made by Srila Prabhupada. If all these points (and many others) were taken into consideration and worked out consciously, many homophobics may not be homophobic. We have a lot to straighten out with this issue, but in the beginning it was not complicated because like eveyrone else, Prabhupada expected them to strictly follow the 4 regulative principles, chant 16 rounds, etc. How many straight devotees do that anymore? (Some, but no where near what it was.) Yet we expect homosexuals to keep it togehter when we cant. So first lets fix the boat before we criticize the passengers. And lets be honest. A (real) homosexual has a BROKEN body, something both sides may get mad at me for, but a few may see my point. Like it or dislike it, such a body does not and cannot preform the way a normal body would. (Yes, I said normal.) We have no problem accepting the person in a wheel chair, and while I agree that acceptance of gay devotess should and MUST include they take the humble position and stop trying, as a couple, to camp near us and therefore our children at a devotee outting -- or trying to achieve a goal to make homosexual marriage acceptable within ISKCON -- or essentially trying to make their sexual preference normal and acceptable, something NO ONE who was gay did when Prabhupada was here), if they can come to that point, and heterosexuals can feel their kids are less likely to be contaminted by this so called 'choice' of which gender they will marry when they grow up, etc., etc, maybe 'then' this can get cleared up. But due to such strong prejudices on BOTH sides, I dont see it happening any time soon. Though I have to agree, homosexuals are holding on to a false identity, and doing so as strongly as possible. I also agree, if Prabhupada were here, they wouldn't even try this! Though if Prabhupada were here, there would be a place for them, yet properly. We all need to sit down and straighten things out, put them back the way Prabhupada had them. YS, Prtha dd

One of the strongest and least intelligent belief of kali yuga men is that women are less intelligent. LOL (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) However, it is the best way for a woman to gain control over a man. The minute he thinks she's not so bright, she's got him right where she wants him! And it's why I have in the past, preached so strongly against this point. Not for any women's libber reasoning, but because such a belief will first, make a mockery out of any genuine spirutal life, and secondly, it actually puts men in the less intelligent position to be utterly controlled and seriously manipulated. What a game! Of illusion and back-scratching of male false ego to puff men up by women so they can get whatever it is they want. A waste of time and would not be necessary if we would get over this 'who is smarter than whom competition.' This is not to say all women are controlling. Mattter of fact, most are not. However, when the freedom of religious women, and intelligence, is stolen away from them, therefore leaving the only way to get their needs met to be through the vehicle of control, well anyone would turn to that under such circumstances. Men incluced. As far as this belief originating from Prabhupada, it may have originated from his disciples, but if one reads ALL of his books, lectures, etc., they will see otherwise. Various disciples quoted him 'conveniently.' I can show plenty of verses that discuss the less intelligent qualities of men. Not that I want to, I dont. But I do wish to clear Prabhupada's name in this. Let those who wish to continue believing in this way take it on their own shoulders, but no longer should Prabhupada be blamed for it. However, I really am tired of this topic and rather not get into it. I did my share explaining it in the past. ha Take it or leave it. :-) YS, Prtha dd